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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Mystykal,

    Thank you for your comments on my article ... I did think about citing chapter and verse, but because there are so many I thought I would leave it up to the reader to search it out. Also, the article from the Examiner that I quoted at the bottom of my article contains many examples, which I thought were sufficient, but maybe I will go back and edit in some specific references.



    Where may I ask do you get the idea that "God is Love", if not from the Bible? You say that it is unfair to blame god for the male bias of the Bible, yet you seem perfectly willing to accept what the Bible says about god's love. How do you know anything at all about the nature of god if you don't get if from the Bible? If the Bible portrays god as a father and a husband, does that not mean his love is like that of a father to his children or a husband to his wife? Read 1 Peter chapter 3, which tells a woman she should obey her husband and call him Lord in the same manner as Christians are to obey god and call him Lord. The idea of god's love being equated with a fathers love, and a husbands love is saturated throughout Scripture, because it was men who authored the Bible.

    If you look around at all the religions of the world you will see that each group gets their concept of who god is from their sacred texts. Muslims get their idea of god from the Ouran, Hindu's get their ideas about all their gods from their sacred texts, just like Christians get their ideas about god from the Bible.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Hi Rose:
    I get my idea of goodness and love from my mom! She is one of the most loving people I know! And I do not accept her idea of GOD or religion! So if I really think about it I believe in goodness and love because I believe in the Taoist yin/yang model. It seems to me to answer the harder questions which the Bilble is silent on. If absolute evil exists then absolute goodness MUST exist as well. The way we learn to love is by example. Most children learn from an adult who is close to them. I too experienced love as a child. Real unconditional love and I call that GOD. I have always looked at the "GOD MODEL" as just that - A model. The nature relogions such as Native American Ghost Dance religion and those of the Hopi also have malevolent aspects to them. However, for the most part they are - like the buffalo woman - the Spirit of kindness and love always wins. This is the take away from even the Bible. In the big picture spirituality is teaching us to behave in a compassionate way with all creatures. The habits of man die hard but the pay off is a world of peace and joy.


    If the Bible portrays god as a father and a husband, does that not mean his love is like that of a father to his children or a husband to his wife? Read 1 Peter chapter 3, which tells a woman she should obey her husband and call him Lord in the same manner as Christians are to obey god and call him Lord. The idea of god's love being equated with a fathers love, and a husbands love is saturated throughout Scripture, because it was men who authored the Bible.
    The Bible also says that "husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it!" So until your husband DIES for you he is not really loving you as Christ loved the church! So all that crap about male dominance goes out the window! The yin/yang model persists in the fact that men are to treat women in a way which is beyond life itself! "Love your enemies!" "Do good to them who hate you!" These ideas are all over in the Bible. Clearly not the normal veiw of men! Men tend to want to fight to even the score! So my point is that even slavery was justified at one time using the Bible! But Paul tells an early Christian to be kind and forgiving to his run a way slave! As we are the slaves of Christ!... I think these analogies are fine but limited in their scope. We must be motivated by the spirit of love and compassion if we are ever going to see a world which can get past all the bad ugly human behavior. It is not the GOD of love who does these things but corrupted people who push the blame onto a god of their own creation! We must discover the buried truth about the true GOD of creation. It is by faith that the truth can be discovered. It is faith working in love that will transform the world and make us better people to each other.


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 12-10-2013 at 01:47 AM.
    Mystykal

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:
    I get my idea of goodness and love from my mom! She is one of the most loving people I know! And I do not accept her idea of GOD or religion! So if I really think about it I believe in goodness and love because I believe in the Taoist yin/yang model. It seems to me to answer the harder questions which the Bilble is silent on. If absolute evil exists then absolute goodness MUST exist as well. The way we learn to love is by example. Most children learn from an adult who is close to them. I too experienced love as a child. Real unconditional love and I call that GOD. I have always looked at the "GOD MODEL" as just that - A model. The nature relogions such as Native American Ghost Dance religion and those of the Hopi also have malevolent aspects to them. However, for the most part they are - like the buffalo woman - the Spirit of kindness and love always wins. This is the take away from even the Bible. In the big picture spirituality is teaching us to behave in a compassionate way with all creatures. The habits of man die hard but the pay off is a world of peace and joy.
    Hi Mystykal,

    Most mothers can be counted on to give unconditional love without the need of a god, I am glad you have a loving mother.

    You may believe the god you worship gives unconditional love, but he is not the god of the Bible. I have written an article called The Conditional Love of God which you might be interested in reading. In the article I explain how the god of the Bible requires obedience for the love he gives, which places a condition on it, thus invalidating it as unconditional. God's love is by no means unconditional, because those who don't worship, praise and obey him are denied his love.




    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    The Bible also says that "husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it!" So until your husband DIES for you he is not really loving you as Christ loved the church! So all that crap about male dominance goes out the window! The yin/yang model persists in the fact that men are to treat women in a way which is beyond life itself! "Love your enemies!" "Do good to them who hate you!" These ideas are all over in the Bible. Clearly not the normal veiw of men! Men tend to want to fight to even the score! So my point is that even slavery was justified at one time using the Bible! But Paul tells an early Christian to be kind and forgiving to his run a way slave! As we are the slaves of Christ!... I think these analogies are fine but limited in their scope. We must be motivated by the spirit of love and compassion if we are ever going to see a world which can get past all the bad ugly human behavior. It is not the GOD of love who does these things but corrupted people who push the blame onto a god of their own creation! We must discover the buried truth about the true GOD of creation. It is by faith that the truth can be discovered. It is faith working in love that will transform the world and make us better people to each other.


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    The Bible is wrong! True love is not about dying for another its about giving honor and respect to others. I don't want my husband to die for me, I want him to respect me as an equal human being ... that is true love. The Bible teaches that women should be subject to their husbands who rule over them ... that is not love. Treating someone well in this life and honoring their freedom to live their lives to their full potential is infinitely better than dying for them ... what good does that do anyone?

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #33
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    Love Love Love!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Mystykal,

    Most mothers can be counted on to give unconditional love without the need of a god, I am glad you have a loving mother.

    You may believe the god you worship gives unconditional love, but he is not the god of the Bible. I have written an article called The Conditional Love of God which you might be interested in reading. In the article I explain how the god of the Bible requires obedience for the love he gives, which places a condition on it, thus invalidating it as unconditional. God's love is by no means unconditional, because those who don't worship, praise and obey him are denied his love.






    The Bible is wrong! True love is not about dying for another its about giving honor and respect to others. I don't want my husband to die for me, I want him to respect me as an equal human being ... that is true love. The Bible teaches that women should be subject to their husbands who rule over them ... that is not love. Treating someone well in this life and honoring their freedom to live their lives to their full potential is infinitely better than dying for them ... what good does that do anyone?

    Take care,
    Rose

    Hi Rose:

    Thank you for your comments! I wish I could say all that is on my mind at the moment.... Let me just say that I did read your article several times... I feel bad for you! Your idea about men and women and the general tone of their lives from your perspective is very sad. I guess in my life I have seen goodness beat out darkness too many times to think that unconditional love is a female trait anymore than saying women are not weightlifters! It is true that many people can be boxed and labeled in a certain way - but I do not believe that model explains god or the Biblegod. I think I also would bet that Richard would take a bullet for you! If you know anything about a man's love you will know that it is "unconditional" as they will put themselves in harms way for the one's they love. Like a mother who will run into a burning house to save her baby..same! Unconditional love has NO conditions! It just loves! So perhaps in the LOVE of GOD it says "The wages of sin is death". So if you persih in the end that is just the "love" of GOD givinig you what YOU WORKED for! GOD in love gives you death! isn't that a possibility? I think you assume many things about the Biblegod as you call it - which just do not fit the GOD Model as explained in the Bible. You seem almost bitter at the Christian establishment or at religion as if their screwed up vision is GOD's fault! I will say it again - GOD IS LOVE! And it is that GOD Model which is Ultimatly true! Everything else is a shadow which is warped by human minds hell bent on scaring people into church or whatever! It must stand to reason that if there is Ultimate evil there has to be Ultimate goodness! that foundation is without debate! We can debate it but we would be just wasting time!. The yin/yang model stands! The ebb and flow of the Universe demands it! The structure of all things is based on it.

    Please understand I do understand what you are trying to say. I get it. However, it seems to me that GOD IS able to do all things - and so I leave you in the Hands of the Great Spirit as you find your way in this life. Much blessings and much love to you and yours!


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 12-10-2013 at 11:59 PM.
    Mystykal

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:

    Thank you for your comments! I wish I could say all that is on my mind at the moment.... Let me just say that I did read your article several times... I feel bad for you! Your idea about men and women and the general tone of their lives from your perspective is very sad. I guess in my life I have seen goodness beat out darkness too many times to think that unconditional love is a female trait anymore than saying women are not weightlifters! It is true that many people can be boxed and labeled in a certain way - but I do not believe that model explains god or the Biblegod. I think I also would bet that Richard would take a bullet for you! If you know anything about a man's love you will know that it is "unconditional" as they will put themselves in harms way for the one's they love. Like a mother who will run into a burning house to save her baby..same! Unconditional love has NO conditions! It just loves! So perhaps in the LOVE of GOD it says "The wages of sin is death". So if you persih in the end that is just the "love" of GOD givinig you what YOU WORKED for! GOD in love gives you death! isn't that a possibility? I think you assume many things about the Biblegod as you call it - which just do not fit the GOD Model as explained in the Bible. You seem almost bitter at the Christian establishment or at religion as if their screwed up vision is GOD's fault!
    Hi Mystykal,

    I think you have misunderstood the point of my article about God's conditional love. I am not saying that men cannot love unconditionally, I'm sure if you're a father or a husband you love your wife or children unconditionally. The reason I used the example of a mothers unconditional love is because it is biologically built in to protect her young. What I am saying is that the god portrayed in the Bible DOES NOT love unconditionally! God's love requires obedience, even Jesus said that the reason god loved him was because he was obedient in laying down his life ... that is a condition. All through the Old and New Testaments you find conditions of obedience are placed on gods love, it is never given unconditionally in the manner a mother loves her offspring.

    The sad thing is that most of the screwed up ideas the church holds are all found in the Bible! The Bible promotes and condones bias against women, slavery, immoral and unequal treatment of women, rape, murder, stealing, lying, and adultery! I am not making this stuff up, it's all there in black and white screaming at you from every page!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    I will say it again - GOD IS LOVE! And it is that GOD Model which is Ultimatly true! Everything else is a shadow which is warped by human minds hell bent on scaring people into church or whatever! It must stand to reason that if there is Ultimate evil there has to be Ultimate goodness! that foundation is without debate! We can debate it but we would be just wasting time!. The yin/yang model stands! The ebb and flow of the Universe demands it! The structure of all things is based on it.

    Please understand I do understand what you are trying to say. I get it. However, it seems to me that GOD IS able to do all things - and so I leave you in the Hands of the Great Spirit as you find your way in this life. Much blessings and much love to you and yours!


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    I totally agree that the universe must be balanced in order to function, but that is not what one finds in the Bible. The Bible is filled with bias and unbalance, so it is not a good example of the Yin/Yang model. Male and female must work in harmony with each other, if one dominates and oppresses the other they both suffer.

    The god you believe in does not seem to be anything like the god I read about in the Bible, so I can understand why you feel the way you do. I do have a question though: if your god is able to do all things, why are there so many suffering children? True unconditional love from a mother or father would never allow their children to suffer if they could heal them.


    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi L67:
    Thanks for responding. I use the word stupid because you said

    So as I see it if the claims are FALSE or mostly so, then you are calling the Bible STUPID! So maybe you like to dance around the topic but I just hit it head on! I think you are more interested in arguing than in finding any kind of reason to the problems which the Bible presents. The issue of faith is at the core of why ANY real skeptic will NEVER accept the Bible or anything spiritual as true! The reason being that FAITH is an ingredient which to a skeptic is non-exxistent as defined in the Bible. the word faith is used many ways... This causes alot of speculation as to what is meant by the word faith.
    Hello Mystykal,

    No! If most of the claims of the Bible are false it means they are false. You are trying to say I said the Bible is stupid and I said no such thing. I said there is SOME truth in the Bible. I haven't danced around any topic. I answered you clearly. You're the one that said I said something I didn't. It is you who doing the dancing.

    I'm more interested in arguing than trying to reason the problems in the Bible? Please... You're the one who engaged me in this thread. I said nothing to you in this thread until you responded to me first. If by reasoning you mean make excuses for the problems in the Bible, then no I am not interested in doing that. I see how you reason things out in the Bible and your explanation don't work. Period. I'm sorry, but that's the plain truth.

    Also, please spare me your spiel about faith. I was raised in a Christian home and I went to a Christian school from preschool all the way to 12th grade. And I was a Christian for another 15 years after that. I know all about what faith is. Christians always assert faith is the answer. Faith is nothing but gullibility. You won't understand how that is until you have your eyes opened from the falsehoods in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    The other thing is that your so called "A few anomalies" is like a total denial of the facts. It is not up to you to know who lives and who dies! To say god does not exist and if god does then god does not know what to do is a joke of the most illogical kind! If GOD does exist then GOD does know what is going on an has a plan! Even when it looks like it makes no sense!
    FACTS? When did you post any kind of facts to support your assertions? You haven't presented any facts. Facts are verifiable. None of the stories you presented are verifiable.

    Your claim that god has a divine plan is one of the most absurd claims that Christians make. That is really some plan. You really think it is a divine plan for women to get raped and then murdered or for young children to be molested? And any other person who dies at the hands of another human being? Plus, all the children who die of abuse, starvation, cancer, disease, etc... That really screams of a loving god. Please come back to reality dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Ok. I am not really trying to convince anyone of the truth - I just look at the model presented and try and see through all the haze and find the real truth behind the lies!
    And why would the biblegod allow lies to be inserted into his word? His message is so important for man kind that he allows his words to be corrupted? What kind of sense does that make?


    You admit there are lies. But if God is omniscient like you claim then his knowledge of truth or falsehood is greater than yours. So you have no way to discern between truth and falsehood with your inferior knowledge to Gods. You have no idea if what you call lies God calls truth. And vice versa. If there is a god then he obviously wanted lies surrounding his message. Only God can know since it's his message. The truth is that nobody on this planet knows what the Bible really means. Christians just believe what they want to believe no matter what.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Mystykal,

    I think you have misunderstood the point of my article about God's conditional love. I am not saying that men cannot love unconditionally, I'm sure if you're a father or a husband you love your wife or children unconditionally. The reason I used the example of a mothers unconditional love is because it is biologically built in to protect her young. What I am saying is that the god portrayed in the Bible DOES NOT love unconditionally! God's love requires obedience, even Jesus said that the reason god loved him was because he was obedient in laying down his life ... that is a condition. All through the Old and New Testaments you find conditions of obedience are placed on gods love, it is never given unconditionally in the manner a mother loves her offspring.

    The sad thing is that most of the screwed up ideas the church holds are all found in the Bible! The Bible promotes and condones bias against women, slavery, immoral and unequal treatment of women, rape, murder, stealing, lying, and adultery! I am not making this stuff up, it's all there in black and white screaming at you from every page!



    I totally agree that the universe must be balanced in order to function, but that is not what one finds in the Bible. The Bible is filled with bias and unbalance, so it is not a good example of the Yin/Yang model. Male and female must work in harmony with each other, if one dominates and oppresses the other they both suffer.

    The god you believe in does not seem to be anything like the god I read about in the Bible, so I can understand why you feel the way you do. I do have a question though: if your god is able to do all things, why are there so many suffering children? True unconditional love from a mother or father would never allow their children to suffer if they could heal them.


    Take care,
    Rose
    Hi Rose:

    I appreciate your comments! I think you ask a great question. Why all the suffering in the world? Why such imbalance? Why does it appear as if things are running themselves? No GOD intervening to "fix" the problems? These are all questions any loving person would have...

    My answer is a simple one - the world is not a place that is in the hands of GOD per se. I think the evil we see in the world is not overridden at all times simply because in the big picture WE as people have lost our way. We are too far off center. And when we are not in balance we create disharmony and chaos and the evil emerges. So it is not that GOD cannot "fix" all things and make it good with no suffering or pain - it is that we are constantly throwing the world out of balance and not allowing the goodness in to heal and restore the planet. And that restoration is coming - but the generation which will bring that restoration has yet to be created...

    Namaste,


    Mystykal
    Mystykal

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:

    I appreciate your comments! I think you ask a great question. Why all the suffering in the world? Why such imbalance? Why does it appear as if things are running themselves? No GOD intervening to "fix" the problems? These are all questions any loving person would have...
    Hello Mystykal,
    Nice to be chatting with you again ...

    The most likely answer to the question of why things appear to be running themselves, is because THEY ARE! There is no intervention because there is no god, or he's doing a mighty good job of making it appear like he doesn't exist. Just as many prayers seem to get answered from Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and non-religious folk as do for Christians, so it just falls into the category of the law of averages. Everyone seems to get their requests fulfilled at one time or another, no matter what their belief system is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    My answer is a simple one - the world is not a place that is in the hands of GOD per se. I think the evil we see in the world is not overridden at all times simply because in the big picture WE as people have lost our way. We are too far off center. And when we are not in balance we create disharmony and chaos and the evil emerges. So it is not that GOD cannot "fix" all things and make it good with no suffering or pain - it is that we are constantly throwing the world out of balance and not allowing the goodness in to heal and restore the planet. And that restoration is coming - but the generation which will bring that restoration has yet to be created...

    Namaste,


    Mystykal
    The way you seem to be describing god is like an absent parent who leaves the running of the household in the hands of the babies, and the reason that there is so much chaos and disorder is because the babies are not mature enough or knowledgeable enough to understand how to balance things. Without the guidance and care of the parent babies cannot survive, so in the picture you have painted of reality we are all doomed, until god swoops in at some point before we are all destroyed and saves the day.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #38
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    And maybe the Answer is....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Mystykal,
    Nice to be chatting with you again ...

    The most likely answer to the question of why things appear to be running themselves, is because THEY ARE! There is no intervention because there is no god, or he's doing a mighty good job of making it appear like he doesn't exist. Just as many prayers seem to get answered from Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and non-religious folk as do for Christians, so it just falls into the category of the law of averages. Everyone seems to get their requests fulfilled at one time or another, no matter what their belief system is.



    The way you seem to be describing god is like an absent parent who leaves the running of the household in the hands of the babies, and the reason that there is so much chaos and disorder is because the babies are not mature enough or knowledgeable enough to understand how to balance things. Without the guidance and care of the parent babies cannot survive, so in the picture you have painted of reality we are all doomed, until god swoops in at some point before we are all destroyed and saves the day.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Hi Rose:

    I would say that the answer is a little bit more complex than that. There are several levels to all of life... If we look closely at how martial arts works we see the Master teaching the student... often from a distance. The student may feel abandoned and alone but the Master is always present in a way guiding the student to rise to the level of a Master! That only happens when we emmerse ourselves in the process and allow our mind to connect in a special way with the mind of the Master. When that happens the student can perform the same way as the Master and there is no difference between student and Master. The Master is still Master but the student is now Master as well!

    You can use that analogy with GOD! The reason so many prayers seem to go un-answered is because we are not Masters of the Way... When we understand the subtle ways of GOD we will have all of our prayers answered and we will transform the world... one person at a time! I know! I am doing just that! I hope one day you will join me and the world will live as ONE! Imagine that!


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 12-16-2013 at 03:03 AM.
    Mystykal

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