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  1. #1
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    Redact of the Bible

    I would like to hear your opinions on if the Bible has been redacted to make one passage or thought in the old testament so to be repeated in the new testament. And what is known about the JEDP theory? Then getting to the main purpose is how does these place a role [if any] in how the Bible Wheel has come about.
    Last edited by Beck; 11-14-2011 at 12:46 PM.
    Beck

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    I would like to hear your opinions on if the Bible has been redacted to make one passage or thought in the old testament so to be repeated in the new testament. And what is known about the JEDP theory? Then getting to the main purpose is how does these place a role [if any] in how the Bible Wheel has come about.
    Hey there Beck,

    Excellent question! For many years I had quite a bit of animosity towards the JEDP theory and those who promoted it. I never accepted it because it seemed like typical academic hubris designed to deny the divine inspiration of Scripture. But the more I thought about it the more I realized that means by which God produced the Bible said nothing about the fact that he was its designer, and I knew that he used many people without their knowledge over a span of many centuries to arrive at his final product so there was nothing about JEDP in principle that contradicted the divine inspiration of Scripture. But still, I never could read scholastic books about it without bristling because they reeked with unbelief.

    But then I realized I was an unbeliever too, and one day I happened to open up my copy of Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Elliott Friedman and man was I surprised! The book was very well written and he presented compelling evidence for the thesis. I now find it difficult to deny that there was some sort of combining of texts along the lines of the JEDP theory. But this does not impact the Bible Wheel in any way at all because the means by which it come be - it's natural history - says nothing about the existence fo the patterns or their origin except to show that it was no deliberately designed by any human or group of humans.

    What's your opinion on JEDP?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there Beck,

    Excellent question! For many years I had quite a bit of animosity towards the JEDP theory and those who promoted it. I never accepted it because it seemed like typical academic hubris designed to deny the divine inspiration of Scripture. But the more I thought about it the more I realized that means by which God produced the Bible said nothing about the fact that he was its designer, and I knew that he used many people without their knowledge over a span of many centuries to arrive at his final product so there was nothing about JEDP in principle that contradicted the divine inspiration of Scripture. But still, I never could read scholastic books about it without bristling because they reeked with unbelief.

    But then I realized I was an unbeliever too, and one day I happened to open up my copy of Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Elliott Friedman and man was I surprised! The book was very well written and he presented compelling evidence for the thesis. I now find it difficult to deny that there was some sort of combining of texts along the lines of the JEDP theory. But this does not impact the Bible Wheel in any way at all because the means by which it come be - it's natural history - says nothing about the existence fo the patterns or their origin except to show that it was no deliberately designed by any human or group of humans.

    What's your opinion on JEDP?

    Well I've being looking into this off and on and haven't determine either way. All I know is that I admit that there is some redact, editing of some passages. Now to the intent I'm not sure of, but I would also say that the mayor portion of scripture used hebrew parallelism and by no means that requires an author or scribe to redact to make the passage seem to be fulfilled in the new testament.

    Actually I don't have much of a disagreement about the JEDP theory it seems highly plausible. But to suggest that the old and new testaments have been redacted to aline with each other in the way that they are shown in the Bible Wheel is some what astonishing.
    Beck

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Well I've being looking into this off and on and haven't determine either way. All I know is that I admit that there is some redact, editing of some passages. Now to the intent I'm not sure of, but I would also say that the mayor portion of scripture used hebrew parallelism and by no means that requires an author or scribe to redact to make the passage seem to be fulfilled in the new testament.

    Actually I don't have much of a disagreement about the JEDP theory it seems highly plausible. But to suggest that the old and new testaments have been redacted to aline with each other in the way that they are shown in the Bible Wheel is some what astonishing.
    I think it would be more than "astonishing" to discover that the Bible Wheel was deliberated designed by some redactors. This is impossible for many reasons. The OT was essentially completed without any knowledge of how it would later fit with the NT and the Hebrew alphabet. And there is absolutely no historical evidence supporting the idea that redactors did it.

    As for JEPD - the evidence for the interweaving of J and E versions of the flood is very compelling. The story naturally divides into two stories that mention either Yahweh (J) or Elohim (E). Here is the entire text of the flood story in the order it is found in the Bible. Each column forms its own self-consistent story of the flood, but when the two are put together there are contradictions (e.g. seven pairs verses single pairs of animals).

    J (YAHWEH) E (ELOHIM)
    Genesis 6:6 And it repented YAHWEH that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And YAHWEH said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of YAHWEH.
    Genesis 6:9 Noah perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with ELOHIM. 10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11 The earth also was corrupt before ELOHIM, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And ELOHIM looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And ELOHIM said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. 15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. 17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. 21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. 22 Thus did Noah; according to all that ELOHIM commanded him, so did he.
    Genesis7:1 And YAHWEH said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. 4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. 5 And Noah did according unto all that YAHWEH commanded him.
    7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
    7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
    7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as ELOHIM had commanded Noah.
    10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
    11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. .
    12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
    13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as ELOHIM had commanded him:
    and YAHWEH shut him in. 17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
    21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
    22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
    7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days. 8:1 And ELOHIM remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and ELOHIM made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; 2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; 3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. 4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. 5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
    Genesis 8:6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:
    7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
    8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; 9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. 10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; 11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. 12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
    13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth:
    and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
    14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. 15 And ELOHIM spake unto Noah, saying, 16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee. 17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth. 18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him: 19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
    20 And Noah builded an altar unto YAHWEH; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And YAHWEH smelled a sweet savour; and YAHWEH said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I think it would be more than "astonishing" to discover that the Bible Wheel was deliberated designed by some redactors. This is impossible for many reasons. The OT was essentially completed without any knowledge of how it would later fit with the NT and the Hebrew alphabet. And there is absolutely no historical evidence supporting the idea that redactors did it.

    As for JEPD - the evidence for the interweaving of J and E versions of the flood is very compelling. The story naturally divides into two stories that mention either Yahweh (J) or Elohim (E). Here is the entire text of the flood story in the order it is found in the Bible. Each column forms its own self-consistent story of the flood, but when the two are put together there are contradictions (e.g. seven pairs verses single pairs of animals).

    J (YAHWEH) E (ELOHIM)
    Genesis 6:6 And it repented YAHWEH that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And YAHWEH said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of YAHWEH.
    Genesis 6:9 Noah perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with ELOHIM. 10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11 The earth also was corrupt before ELOHIM, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And ELOHIM looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And ELOHIM said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. 15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. 17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. 21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. 22 Thus did Noah; according to all that ELOHIM commanded him, so did he.
    Genesis7:1 And YAHWEH said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. 4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. 5 And Noah did according unto all that YAHWEH commanded him.
    7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
    7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
    7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as ELOHIM had commanded Noah.
    10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
    11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. .
    12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
    13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as ELOHIM had commanded him:
    and YAHWEH shut him in. 17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
    21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
    22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
    7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days. 8:1 And ELOHIM remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and ELOHIM made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; 2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; 3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. 4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. 5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
    Genesis 8:6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:
    7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
    8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; 9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. 10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; 11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. 12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
    13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth:
    and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
    14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. 15 And ELOHIM spake unto Noah, saying, 16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee. 17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth. 18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him: 19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
    20 And Noah builded an altar unto YAHWEH; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And YAHWEH smelled a sweet savour; and YAHWEH said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
    I was reminded of this thread today, and am surprised it has not generated more discussion. Of course, it could be that the Christians on this forum are reacting the same when I did when I was a believer. I remember well how I totally ignored the Documentary Hypothesis because I felt the "scholars" (I frequently used scare quotes when referring to Biblical scholars) were blinded by their presuppositions, so they would spend endless years tracing out any patterns no matter how tenuous if they thought they supported the idea of human authorship, but would reject any evidence, no matter how strong (such as the Bible Wheel) if it supported the thesis of divine authorship.

    But now I can see why they find the evidence compelling. I just never really looked at it before (when I was a believer). The story really does natural divide into two coherent narratives based on the two divine names, and the story is quite incoherent when messed together as in our modern Bibles.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    Two sides to the same coin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I was reminded of this thread today, and am surprised it has not generated more discussion. Of course, it could be that the Christians on this forum are reacting the same when I did when I was a believer. I remember well how I totally ignored the Documentary Hypothesis because I felt the "scholars" (I frequently used scare quotes when referring to Biblical scholars) were blinded by their presuppositions, so they would spend endless years tracing out any patterns no matter how tenuous if they thought they supported the idea of human authorship, but would reject any evidence, no matter how strong (such as the Bible Wheel) if it supported the thesis of divine authorship.

    But now I can see why they find the evidence compelling. I just never really looked at it before (when I was a believer). The story really does natural divide into two coherent narratives based on the two divine names, and the story is quite incoherent when messed together as in our modern Bibles.
    Hi Richard:
    I do not see any issue with the two views of the same story. The idea that a coin cannot have two sides is laughable. So isn't it possible that these "two" versions are just telling the same story from two different views? It is too much to keep insisting that venerable word inspiration is being used in the Bible. It's more like ideas are being laid down which indicate a formula to understanding the nature of man and his life journey.

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    I do not think that language just came about by chance. And this symbol for boat is very telling. It is found in many pre-christian writings and on oracle bone inscriptions.

    Then there is this:

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    [Shem's commands to Melchisedek.]
    And Shem said unto Melchisedek, "Thou shalt be the priest of the Most High God, because thou alone hath God chosen to minister before Him in this place. And thou shalt sit (i.e. dwell) here continually, and shalt not depart from this place all the days of thy life. Thou shalt not take a wife, thou shalt not shave thy head, and thou shalt not pour out blood [Fol. 21b, col. 1] in this place. Thou shalt not offer up wild beasts nor feathered fowl, but thou shalt offer up bread and wine always; and thou shalt not build a building in this place. And behold, the Angel of the Lord shall come down to thee and visit thee continually." And Shem embraced and kissed Melchisedek, and blessed him, and he returned to his brethren. And Mâlâkh, the p. 130 father of Melchisedek, and Yôzâdhâk, his mother, said [unto Shem], "Where is the young man?" And he said, "He died on the journey, and I buried him there" (i.e. where he died); and they mourned for him greatly.

    [NOTES.--A scribe's note says that in the manuscript of one Makbal Melchisedek's father was called "Harklêîm" and his mother "Shêlâthîêl " (Budge, Book of the Bee, page 34). Melchisedek wore a tunic of skin and a leather girdle, and an angel dwelt with him, and protected him, and gave him food (Book of Adam, iii. 21). When he was old, the kings of the earth heard his fame, and eleven of them gathered together and came to see him; and they entreated him to go with them, but he would not be persuaded. And when he did not conform to their wishes, they built a city for him there, and he called it Jerusalem; and the kings said to one another, "This is the king of all the earth, and the father of nations."]


    [NOTES.--According to the Book of the Bee, Noah died on the fourth day of the week (Wednesday), on the second day of the month of Nîsân (April), at the second hour of the day. The Book of Adam says that he was buried on the mountain on which the Ark rested. The same authority states (iii. chapter xiv) that the Ark was closed during the days of Noah, but that Noah went into it every evening to light the lamp which he had made, and which burned before the body of Adam. It is also stated that during his dying speech Noah indicated to each of his sons which part of the earth he was to dwell with his posterity. The territory of Shem extended from Jerusalem eastwards as far as India, and southwards as far as the mountains which divided Egypt from the land of the Philistines. It included Mount Zion, Mount Sinai, and the Garden of Eden. Ham's territory extended from p. 125 Aris towards the south, as far as Fardundan and Gadariun, and also to the borders of the west. Japhet's portion was very large, and extended from the angle of the west to Damatha in the south, and all the north as far as Aris. Canaan, a descendant of Ham, had seven sons, and he seized seven of the great cities of Shem, and set these sons over them; and he doubled the size of his own portion. Later, God gave these cities back to the children of Shem, and blotted out Canaan's posterity, Kebra Nagast (chapter xii).]


    http://suite101.com/a/decoding-the-b...hs-ark-a358139

    Decoding the Bible: Noah's Ark
    Is Noah's Ark a literal or symbolic story? This article is about breaking down the esoteric symbolism behind the story of the Great Flood.

    Posted by Brandon Boucher | Last updated: Nov 28, 2013
    Decoding the Bible: Part III - Noah's Ark|Christopher C. Brown

    Noah’s Ark is one of the most prevalent stories that we know of. It's about a man called Noah who lived with his family amongst a degenerating civilization. God wanted to flood the rest of the world in order to purge it from humanity’s evil. However, Noah was an exception; and God told Noah to build an Ark where his family and two of every land creature would survive from the coming catastrophe.

    There are some who claim that it’s an unrealistic story all together. Building such a large boat in such little time is impractical, many would claim; while others have a hard time fathoming the practicality of traveling the entire known world and rounding up two of every animal. It’s not unfaithful to agree that these speculations may be a bit, unrealistic. But sometimes speculation just raises curiosity. This article is about unraveling the possible messages behind the symbols of Noah’s Ark.

    The Age of Kali Yuga
    Some anthropologists claim that other great civilizations may have existed before recorded history can tell us. One of these civilizations could have been the enigmatic continent of Atlantis. According to an article called The End of the Kali Yuga, Atlantis was a rich and prosperous civilization. Some say that they possessed advanced technology and an adequate distribution of wealth. Everyone was happy, or so they thought.

    The article states that amongst the Atlanteans lived a wise man by the name of Vaivasvata Manu. Vaivasvata was said to be a spiritual person who practiced the virtues of the Great Arcanum and was a man of enlightenment. He perceived things that others did not, but was mocked when he tried to explain what he saw. Aside from perception, he was also very knowledgable. He knew of a solar cycle called the Sidereal Year, which is our solar systems rotation around the Zodiacal Belt. Just as the Terrestrial Year, the Sidereal Year is composed of four seasons. These seasons don’t last for a matter of months, but rather a span of thousands of years. They are labeled as follows:


    Age of Gold/Krita Yuga – Wisdom/Spring
    Age of Silver/Treta Yuga – Ritual/Summer
    Age of Copper/Dvapara Yuga – Doubt/Fall
    Age of Iron/Kali Yuga – Conflict/Winter

    At the end of each Sidereal Year comes a chain of planetary events that are often extremely devastating. As the Atlantean civilization reached the age of Kali Yuga, they began to degenerate toward immorality and anthropophagy. Vaivasvata Manu, being a spiritual man, realized how deeply society had begun to over-indulge in its false science. Being aware of how degenerative society was becoming, Vaivasvata tried to warn the people of a coming disaster that would destroy all of Atlantis. Yet, not to Vaivasvata’s surprise, the people mocked his warnings and went back to their monotonous lifestyles.

    Leaving the rest of the Atlantean society behind, Vaivasvata fled from the Atlantean continent to avoid the coming catastrophe. It wasn’t long after until the predicted planetary shifts began to occur, and just as Vaivasvata predicted, the continent of Atlantis sunk to the bottom of the ocean. This resulted in the end of the Atlantean civilization, and from its demise emerged a new Root Race.

    Noah
    It is said that the Hebrews later changed Vaivasvata's name to Noah in order to bring a numerical value to his name. According to Hebrew4christians.com, the Hebrew language is featured with something called gematria, which is a language system that gives a numerical value to words and letters. Noah in Hebrew is written with two letters, Nun and Chet.

    According to the gematria, Nun holds the numeric value of 50. This number relates to the symbolism behind God telling Noah to build the ark 50 cubits wide.
    Chet has the numeric value of 8. It is said to be the letter of life, which could be taken as Tree of Life; but it can also be used to symbolize the 8 souls of Noah's family that were saved during the great flood.

    The Ark(anum)
    The Ark is said to be a symbol for the Great Arcanum - a universal light of spiritual wisdom that has been perpetually suppressed throughout the course of antiquity. It is said that some religious groups diluted its meaning and articulated the counterfeit teachings, while others took the true message and expressed its implications through the writings of symbolic allegories such as Adam and Eve and Noah’s Ark. Each distinct allegory is a veiling cloak that is beckoning the guidance of the Great Arcanum to the rest of humanity through sub-texts and hidden messages.

    The message of the Great Arcanum is the journey of storing and applying sexual energy in a spiritual manner in order to reach a state of spiritual purity. According to the teachings of the Great Arcanum, the common practice of releasing the fluids for sexual practice is spiritually forbidden. This is because it causes the individual to expel the spiritual energy that is necessary to secure a direct connection with divinity. According to the Great Arcanum, couples who defeat the urge and work together to overcome the temptation can both achieve the direct connection and develop a God-like state of being; this is known as enlightenment.

    Noah practiced the virtues of the Great Arcanum. Thus, he achieved a direct connection with God and was able to receive the warning of the coming disaster which would come to destroy the sinister Atlantean civilization.

    The Flood
    Often in Biblical symbology, water is used to symbolize sexuality. Various examples of this are the waters of the Flood of Noah, Moses separating the sea, and Jesus walking on water. All of these symbolize the individual’s triumph over the temptation of lustfulness. In the story of Noah, the flood symbolizes humanity drowning in the waters of their own sexual desire. As civilization began to spiritually degenerate, immoral behavior expanded. Everybody had become out of control with their temptations; having no social limit of what was done for the unquenching drive of instant gratification.

    Many spiritual advisors agree that the more an individual lives to satisfy their urges, the more they will degenerate spiritually. In the case of Noah’s story, the people were drowning in their own lust and temptations without any sense of remorse, causing them to lose their connection with God. The separation from God is the spiritual death (the first death), while the second death is the physical death caused by old age or disease. Civilization doomed itself to endure the second death through the flood of their driving temptations and immoral behaviors. Noah survived the flood by conquering the urge and applying his sexual energy for spiritual development.

    The Sons of Noah
    Noah had three sons named Ham, Japith, and Shem.
    According to a Gnostic lecture titled as, The Ark of Noah, the three sons of Noah each symbolize the three lower solar bodies of the Tree of Life. Each sphere (sephirah) of the Tree of Life represents a various level of the soul. Gnosticism teaches that one must master each of the ten spheres of the tree in order to achieve a state of spiritual perfection. In this case, we are referring to the spheres Hod, Netzach and Tiphereth –which are symbolized in the story as being Noah’s three sons.


    Shem is said to symbolize the solar body called Hod, which is the Astral Body. Astral Body is a vessel of the consciousness that is projectable from the physical body and can be used by the individual to explore the galactic planes. It is considered to be the body of emotional thinking.

    Ham symbolizes the solar body called Netzach, which is the Mental Body. The Mental Body is the epicenter of art, creativity, and instinctual preference. It is a sephirah of intellectual being.

    Japith symbolizes the solar body called Tiphereth, which means Causal Body. The Causal Body is the soul, and solar body of conscious will. It is the sephirah that brings balance to all three of the solar bodies.

    By awakening his three solar bodies, Noah achieved his Second Birth. In Christianity, the second birth is often referred to as being Born Again. To be born again means to have spiritually “given birth” to the immortal triad of the three solar bodies. Hence, upon doing this, Noah gave birth to and saved his three sons.

    The Animals
    Genesis 6:20: “Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.”

    The animals seem to represent a powerful energy that is stored inside of us called the Kundalini. The Kundalini is the same sexual energy mentioned in the Great Arcanum. It is stored in the second lowest sphere in the Tree of Life called the Yesod. Kundalini can either be used to bring temporary pleasure, or it can be used to awaken the ten spheres of the tree which results in achieving enlightenment. Two of every animal symbolizes the Ida (feminine) and Pingala (masculine) energy channels of the Caduceus. Noah was able to conquer the temptation of abusing the energy of the Kundalini by applying it toward his spiritual growth as opposed to utilizing it for animal pleasure. The story symbolizes this through displaying Noah's exposure to all the animals of the world and yet still remaining resistant to their impurity. Hence, he was able to conquer the lustful waters of temptation.

    40 Days
    Genesis 7:17: “For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth.”

    According the gematrian system, the letter with the numeric value of 40 is called Mem .Traditionally, Mem has multiple meanings in the Hebrew language, but is most often used to signify water. As stated earlier, water is often used as a symbol of sexuality in esoteric spiritual teachings.

    Hebrew4christians.com goes on to add that the letter Mem not only signifies water. It also associates with 40 days and nights of the flood, 40 days of Moses being atop Mount Sinai, 40 years of Israel being in the desert, and the list goes on.

    Aside from the number 40 being associated with the Hebrew letter Mem, some spiritual scholars advocate that 40 years is the average amount of time that it takes in order to reach enlightenment through devotionally applying the customs of the Great Arcanum.

    The Dove and the Olive Leaf
    Genesis 8:11: “When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf!”

    The return of the dove symbolizes spiritual victory. Olive trees are where olive oil comes from, and olive oil is a symbol of transmutation. In this case, the transmutation invokes the sexual energy of the Kundalini being transmuted into the birth of the soul, or achieving enlightenment. The white dove symbolizes the Kundalini energy of the Holy Spirit that rises in the spinal column, and spiritual purity. So the dove (symbol of purity) flying back with the olive leaf (symbol of transmutation) in its beak symbolizes Noah’s conquest of storing and transmuting his sexual energy to illuminate his solar bodies and avoiding the consequence of drowning in the lustful waters of animal desire.



    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 12-02-2013 at 03:36 AM.
    Mystykal

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Richard:
    I do not see any issue with the two views of the same story. The idea that a coin cannot have two sides is laughable.
    Hey there Mystykal,

    I agree it would be laughable to say a coin cannot have to sides, but it would be even more absurd to say that two equals seven!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    So isn't it possible that these "two" versions are just telling the same story from two different views?
    Yes, I suppose it could be "possible" but it doesn't seem very probable. It is quite incoherent when read as one story, but when divided into two according to the two different divine names, it flows very naturally and makes sense. Therefore, it seems much more reasonable to conclude that there were two different traditions, marked by different divine names, than to try to force it to fit an entirely unjustified presupposition of divine authorship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    It is too much to keep insisting that venerable word inspiration is being used in the Bible. It's more like ideas are being laid down which indicate a formula to understanding the nature of man and his life journey.

    Name:  12099808-chinese-character-for-boat-2500-bc.jpg
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    I do not think that language just came about by chance. And this symbol for boat is very telling. It is found in many pre-christian writings and on oracle bone inscriptions.
    Now I am confused. Most people cite that Chinese character as evidence that the story of the flood literally happened in real time. But you seem to be saying that there is some sort of "encoded formula." What would that be? What "formula" does "8 people saved from a flood in a boat" encode?

    As for the general idea of interpreting the story symbolically - that's great! We can all make up whatever we want. But then the book doesn't actually teach us anything. I can interpret the Sunday Comics as allegories of my spiritual journey. Now don't get me wrong. I think there is a deep mystery in the Bible and it may well encode some pretty amazing stuff from the "deep psyche" of the Universal Mind or whatever. Or not. I don't know. But I do know that our conversation keeps going in circles because you insist that the Bible - or rather, the Old Testament at least - is some sort of authoritative text and that the New Testament is too except that it's not really and it all really happened in REAL TIME but not really, except when it did ... etc.! Do you get my point? I get rather dizzy talking with you. But I enjoy it, and am really glad you are persevering.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    These Truths we hold as self evident....

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Mystykal,

    I agree it would be laughable to say a coin cannot have to sides, but it would be even more absurd to say that two equals seven!


    Yes, I suppose it could be "possible" but it doesn't seem very probable. It is quite incoherent when read as one story, but when divided into two according to the two different divine names, it flows very naturally and makes sense. Therefore, it seems much more reasonable to conclude that there were two different traditions, marked by different divine names, than to try to force it to fit an entirely unjustified presupposition of divine authorship.


    Now I am confused. Most people cite that Chinese character as evidence that the story of the flood literally happened in real time. But you seem to be saying that there is some sort of "encoded formula." What would that be? What "formula" does "8 people saved from a flood in a boat" encode?

    As for the general idea of interpreting the story symbolically - that's great! We can all make up whatever we want. But then the book doesn't actually teach us anything. I can interpret the Sunday Comics as allegories of my spiritual journey. Now don't get me wrong. I think there is a deep mystery in the Bible and it may well encode some pretty amazing stuff from the "deep psyche" of the Universal Mind or whatever. Or not. I don't know. But I do know that our conversation keeps going in circles because you insist that the Bible - or rather, the Old Testament at least - is some sort of authoritative text and that the New Testament is too except that it's not really and it all really happened in REAL TIME but not really, except when it did ... etc.! Do you get my point? I get rather dizzy talking with you. But I enjoy it, and am really glad you are persevering.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    Hi Richard!
    Yes it is quite irritating talking to someone like me! You see the Taoist view of the world and life calls for a view which cannot be cerebral. It must be felt in a true way. Like a koan the mind is stilled when a dichotomy is presented to it. I believe that it is that system in which the Bible was written - hence all the seeming contradictions! It is possible that mere stupid people wrote down competing stories/myths but then stupid people ussually don't know how to write! Then we have the issue of IF there is a GOD who has to play by rules set up on some grand chess game in order to establish a "free-will" system for created beings to use. All very complicated stuff. But if it was simple then it would not have lasted this long and people would not be interested in the details. The truth is never on the surface! It is always hidden. The power to create is found in the ability to grasp the seemingly impossible position whch does exist...but is not easily found. I know we all want easy answers... But the process demands an absolute resolve which cannot be broken. "I will not let you go unless you bless me!" The cry of Jacob to the Angel who he "wrestled" with all nite... "You will find me when you search for me with ALL of your heart." These ideas indicate that whatever the truth is in the context of "saving faith" cannot be found in the same manner as reading a science book. The intent must be there to grasp the unknowable. Crazy? Yes! But I do see many a sage who has found the way and we are a better world because of them.

    You Said
    ."As for the general idea of interpreting the story symbolically - that's great! We can all make up whatever we want. But then the book doesn't actually teach us anything.
    To the contrary!... The symbolic meaning IS the lesson to be learned. And the true symbolism is not just made up by some fool somewhere anymore than the holographs are random gibberish! The fact that the flood story exists in so many ancient texts indicates that the story has a profound intent for all of mankind. The number 8 has always been a key player in numerical significance. The eternity principle comes to mind. Indicating that if we are to "save" the planet from total distruction we need to work out the issues presented in the eternity puzzle presented in the 8 people/minds/gods/universal thoughts/mouths talking the two eternal essences bonding together the circles of life/as above so below ("thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"). This idea is everywhere! And it is repeated over and over in many ways as if we are to enter in to that "eternal rest" which can only be achieved by the union of the human and the divine. The eternal principle screams out as us to be understood. In the right context the number 8 is the key to unlocking the creative healing power. It has been used to cause great change in the world. The alchemical usages are many...

    Now maybe you just ignore all that and think that nothing really changes by thought processes. However, nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible is a book of magic. And as such has the ability to create and destroy. "In the beginning was the Word." Words when applied to the esoteric principles of the Universe do alter reality. And "Saving Faith" is activated. "If you have faith the size (quality) of a mustard seed you can say to that mountain 'Be removed into the sea!' and it will happen." Jesus

    So the faith that Jesus spoke about was not some mere belief in gibberish religion - it actually worked in real time and changed the reality within the structure of the world as we know it. And that is by definition "saving faith".

    -------

    http://www.biblewheel.com//Wheel/Spokes/Chet_Eight.php
    Eight, Baptism, and the Ark

    Baptism is the Sign of the Covenant in the New Covenant. Like Circumcision, it involves a "cutting off" of the flesh - only now it is a symbol of being crucified with Christ, "buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6.4). God reveals the connection with the Number 8 in 1 Peter 3:18ff:

    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    1 Peter 3:18ff

    Octangular Baptismal Font in Pisa

    There is a strong typological association between Noah's Flood which washed away the wicked people of the world and Baptism which is the symbol of the washing away of our wicked sins. The correlation is simply astounding - it is a typological prophecy that everyone can see fulfilled in Christian Baptism. Of particular beauty is the correlation with the Baptism of Christ when the Holy Spirit descended upon Christ in the form of the Dove - there very animal released by Noah from the Ark as the sign of the new beginning! We have multiple independent converging lines of association between Baptism, Salvation through the Flood, Resurrection, and the Number Eight that points clearly to the deliberate design and Teaching of God's Wisdom. It is for this reason that the Church has traditionally designed baptismal fonts as octagons.

    Eight and the Resurrection
    But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    John 20:24

    The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the ultimate new beginning. In the perfect Wisdom of God, it occurred on Sunday, simultaneously the First Day and the Eighth Day of the Week. It is the temporal equivalent of the Octave, established from the foundation of the World to teach us forever the glory of the resurrected Lord of the Universe. This is reiterated yet again in Christ's appearance to Thomas on the Eighth Day after his resurrection. And what teaching did Christ give us? When I was an unbeliever, I thought that Christ was teaching blind faith when He said "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." How could this be anything but blind belief? The answer is as obvious as it profound. Faith is not blind - Faith is the fulfillment of Christ's promise that "blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." In plain English, the reason people need proof is because they are blinded by their sins and lack of faith. They are so cut off from God and Truth that they can not receive the witness of the Holy Spirit! They fulfill the words of Christ from Matthew 12:39:

    An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Matthew 12:39

    Thomas was called Didymus which means twofold or twin (S# G1324). The natural reason for this was because it was the Greek translation of his Hebrew name (Tawom, Twin, S# H8380 - note the phonetic similarity to the English). The supernatural reason is because the fundamental characteristic of doubt is double-mindedness (see James 1:8), and this is what was enscripturated in the record of Doubting Thomas. Oh! The glory of God's Wisdom! Finally, two elements of this story link to the Number 800:

    Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    John 20:27

    We have the pair of identities:

    Faith
    Pistis = 800 = Lord
    Kurios


    The Risen Lord is the object of our Faith. It is by joining ourselves utterly to the Lord through faith, even unto death - the Omega Point of our natural lives - as Ruth with Naomi, that we can focus the mind, heart, and hope on the ultimate outworking of God's Creation - again symbolized by Omega - so that we can walk through this world in perfect peace. This is the marriage of the Soul with God! Note that this links to the Rainbow = 800 given as God's original sign of the covenant and the last letter of the Greek language, Omega.

    All these ideas are both recognized and expounded upon in the traditional Jewish understanding of the Letter Chet. For example, on page 136 in his book Alef-Beit, Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh declares (emphasis mine):

    At the level of Divinity, the number eight alludes to the absolute Infinity of G-d. ... Whereas at the level of Souls, circumcision gives one the power to overcome obstacles, at this level of awareness G-d's true Infinity links one, in covenant, to His very Essence.

    When linked to Infinity, overcoming obstacles, even death, the secret of resurrection, becomes self-evident and "second nature." When absolutely connected to the Infinite One, there can in truth be no obstacle.

    To really appreciate the significance of this quote, it must be remembered that it comes from a Jewish Rabbi who is not trying to support the text of the New Testament, wherein we find the extremely strong Christian witness to the relation between the Number 8 and Resurrection.

    Eight, Octaves, and New Beginnings
    It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

    AV Lamentations 3:34-34

    The verses above are two of the Chet Alphabetic Verses from Lamentations (vss 23 . 24). Of particular interest is the Chet KeyWord חדש (chadash, new, S# H2319) which relates to the fundamental symbolic meaning of the Number Eight in Scripture established by God in the Seven Days of Creation. The Eighth Day is the first day of the new week, precisely as the Octave is the Eighth Note that begins the musical cycle anew on a higher level. This meaning coheres with the shape of the Arabic Number 8 - the Figure Eight - which is an image of the physical shape of the standing wave of the Octave. All this naturally (and supernaturally!) integrates with the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Three numbers are closely associated in Scripture with the ideas of Marriage, Resurrection, New Beginnings. Each has the form of an Octave: N x 7 . 1. Specifically, the first, third, and seventh octaves, which are given by N = 1, 3, and 7:

    First Octave: New Beginnings: 8 = 1 x 7 . 1
    Third Octave: Number of Spokes: 22 = 3 x 7 . 1
    Seventh Octave: Pentecost: 50 = 7 x 7 . 1


    The idea of the octave is very enlightening here. Books 8 (Ruth) and 22 (Song of Solomon) are deeply integrated on the idea of Marriage, which is the ultimate biblical symbol of our entrance into God's Covenant and the ultimate outworking of His Covenant when Christ receives His Bride. The Number 22 - the Number of Spokes on the Wheel and letters in the Hebrew alphabet - is the third Octave. Pentecost, which represents the fullness of God's Time, sealed by His Spirit is the Seventh Octave, in perfect harmony with God's use of the Number Seven in Scripture. These identities are discussed more in the Spoke 8 Pentecost article. They point to the everlasting Wisdom of God descending from above. The Key is knowing Jesus (888) and the power of His Resurrection (8).

    English Eight
    German Acht
    Greek
    Latin Octo

    Many, if not most words for "eight" from Indo-European languages are very similar to the name of the eighth letter Chet, in the sense that it is composed of a guttural like "ch" followed by a dental like "t." The only significant variation noted in Klein's Etymological Dictionary of the English Language is the Old Slavic Osmi which - interestingly enough - is phonetically similar to the Hebrew name of the Number Eight, Shemunah (S# H8083). The value of this name integrates with the Aleph and Tav:

    Eight
    Shemunah = 401 = Aleph Tav
    Et



    The Number 401 also coincides with the value of the name of Isaiah, the one book in the Bible that is an image of the Bible within the Bible, complete from Aleph to Tav (cf. Inner Wheel of Isaiah).

    The idea of the Octave manifests in a slightly different way in the Greek Alphanumeric correlation, which begins with Alpha = 1 and ends with Omega = 800.

    The Number 8 integrates with the Number 66 - the value of the Wheel (Galgal) - to yield the Key to the Bible, as revealed in Isaiah 22.22:

    And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

    Isaiah 22:22

    We have the identity:

    KEY

    Maphte'ach = n528 = 8 x n66

    Of course, the name Isaiah is itself integrated with Eight and the Aleph Tav through the identity:

    Isaiah
    Yishaihau = n401 = Aleph . Tav = Eight


    Note also that the ordinal position of Isaiah in the Canon is as Book 23, which integrates with the sum of the ordinal values of Aleph (1) and Tav (22).

    ======================================

    You Said,
    "But I do know that our conversation keeps going in circles because you insist that the Bible - or rather, the Old Testament at least - is some sort of authoritative text and that the New Testament is too except that it's not really and it all really happened in REAL TIME but not really, except when it did ... etc.! Do you get my point? I get rather dizzy talking with you. But I enjoy it, and am really glad you are persevering.
    Well it is a pleasure to see you having to let go of your notions which up to now have worked so well for you! Confusion is a part of life. Embrace it! The crap you call Christianity is a sad bag of bones which by itself cannot provide for the needs of the human spirit. You are a seeker... I admire that in a person.

    TBC

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 12-03-2013 at 03:52 AM.
    Mystykal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post

    Hi Richard!
    Yes it is quite irritating talking to someone like me! You see the Taoist view of the world and life calls for a view which cannot be cerebral. It must be felt in a true way. Like a koan the mind is stilled when a dichotomy is presented to it. I believe that it is that system in which the Bible was written - hence all the seeming contradictions!
    Hey there my friend,

    While it's true that koans are contradictory, it does not follow that all contradictions are koans! If all contradictions are koans, you don't need the Bible, you could just as well be a Mystical Mormon or Muslim or Sunday Comics reader.

    It seems to me that you are just arbitrarily (and with no good reason) declaring that the Bible is the perfect inerrant inspired Word of God no matter what it actually says, and then whenever you find an error, contradiction, absurdity, or moral abomination attributed to God, you simply treat it as a "koan" or something "symbolic" or whatever. And so the book really teaches you nothing. It's all just an exercise in creative thinking. You could do exactly the same thing with any self-contradictory text. So this then leads us back, by a commodius vicus of recirculation, to the fundamental question about which we have been turning for many months - how do you discern between truth and falsehood? Why should anyone believe the Bible is any more true than any other ancient religious text?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    It is possible that mere stupid people wrote down competing stories/myths but then stupid people ussually don't know how to write!
    I've never said or suggested that the writers and redactors of the Bible were "stupid". On the contrary, they were the "elite" of their time since, as you noted, "stupid people don't usually know how to write" - especially back then when it was a rare talent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Then we have the issue of IF there is a GOD who has to play by rules set up on some grand chess game in order to establish a "free-will" system for created beings to use. All very complicated stuff. But if it was simple then it would not have lasted this long and people would not be interested in the details. The truth is never on the surface! It is always hidden.
    As you know, I've always said there could be some kind of God. But I see no reason to think that the God described in the Bible is the true God, for the many reasons I've explained many times.

    Though I agree truth is not always easy to find, I wouldn't say that it is "very complicated" in essence - on the contrary, once it is seen it is usually very plain and easily demonstrated. Falsehood, on the other hand, hides under a veil of "complication". This is because it takes lots of words to confuse things enough to give the appearance of justification of falsehood. I would think this should be common knowledge. Just listen to a lawyer if you don't believe me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    The power to create is found in the ability to grasp the seemingly impossible position whch does exist...but is not easily found. I know we all want easy answers... But the process demands an absolute resolve which cannot be broken. "I will not let you go unless you bless me!" The cry of Jacob to the Angel who he "wrestled" with all nite... "You will find me when you search for me with ALL of your heart." These ideas indicate that whatever the truth is in the context of "saving faith" cannot be found in the same manner as reading a science book. The intent must be there to grasp the unknowable. Crazy? Yes! But I do see many a sage who has found the way and we are a better world because of them.
    I agree completely with the need for perseverance and commitment. I see nothing "crazy" about that at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    You Said

    "As for the general idea of interpreting the story symbolically - that's great! We can all make up whatever we want. But then the book doesn't actually teach us anything.
    To the contrary!... The symbolic meaning IS the lesson to be learned. And the true symbolism is not just made up by some fool somewhere anymore than the holographs are random gibberish! The fact that the flood story exists in so many ancient texts indicates that the story has a profound intent for all of mankind. The number 8 has always been a key player in numerical significance. The eternity principle comes to mind. Indicating that if we are to "save" the planet from total distruction we need to work out the issues presented in the eternity puzzle presented in the 8 people/minds/gods/universal thoughts/mouths talking the two eternal essences bonding together the circles of life/as above so below ("thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"). This idea is everywhere! And it is repeated over and over in many ways as if we are to enter in to that "eternal rest" which can only be achieved by the union of the human and the divine. The eternal principle screams out as us to be understood. In the right context the number 8 is the key to unlocking the creative healing power. It has been used to cause great change in the world. The alchemical usages are many...
    I don't think the number 8 is common to the flood stories found in many cultures.

    Your symbolic interpretation of the 8 is fine but still it seems rather idiosyncratic. How many people would interpret the flood story as having something to do with "saving the planet from total destruction"? That's not what the Bible teaches! On the contrary, in the immediate context of the flood story, Peter explains that the world would SOON be totally destroyed by fire! This is what I was talking about when I said that "we can all make up whatever we want". There are no standards by which to discern between the "true" and the "false" interpretations, and they are very idiosyncratic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Now maybe you just ignore all that and think that nothing really changes by thought processes. However, nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible is a book of magic. And as such has the ability to create and destroy. "In the beginning was the Word." Words when applied to the esoteric principles of the Universe do alter reality. And "Saving Faith" is activated. "If you have faith the size (quality) of a mustard seed you can say to that mountain 'Be removed into the sea!' and it will happen." Jesus

    So the faith that Jesus spoke about was not some mere belief in gibberish religion - it actually worked in real time and changed the reality within the structure of the world as we know it. And that is by definition "saving faith".
    There you go again! How many Bible believers would be happy to describe the Bible as a "book of magic"? The creative word in the Bible is God's not ours. You say that faith "actually worked in real time and changed reality". That's your belief. You have not shown any evidence of that. And is is the same thing folks in most religions say, so why should I believe one over the other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post

    http://www.biblewheel.com//Wheel/Spokes/Chet_Eight.php
    Eight, Baptism, and the Ark

    Baptism is the Sign of the Covenant in the New Covenant. Like Circumcision, it involves a "cutting off" of the flesh - only now it is a symbol of being crucified with Christ, "buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6.4). God reveals the connection with the Number 8 in 1 Peter 3:18ff:

    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    1 Peter 3:18ff

    Octangular Baptismal Font in Pisa

    There is a strong typological association between Noah's Flood which washed away the wicked people of the world and Baptism which is the symbol of the washing away of our wicked sins. The correlation is simply astounding - it is a typological prophecy that everyone can see fulfilled in Christian Baptism. Of particular beauty is the correlation with the Baptism of Christ when the Holy Spirit descended upon Christ in the form of the Dove - there very animal released by Noah from the Ark as the sign of the new beginning! We have multiple independent converging lines of association between Baptism, Salvation through the Flood, Resurrection, and the Number Eight that points clearly to the deliberate design and Teaching of God's Wisdom. It is for this reason that the Church has traditionally designed baptismal fonts as octagons.

    Eight and the Resurrection
    But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    <snip etc.>
    Trying to hang me by my own petard, I see!

    Well, that didn't work because you will note that I wasn't making up my own idiosyncratic interpretations, but rather showing correlations with things plainly taught in Scripture. It seems like you and I differ on this point. Much of what you say does not sound like things taught in the Bible. They sound more like your own private interpretations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    You Said,

    "But I do know that our conversation keeps going in circles because you insist that the Bible - or rather, the Old Testament at least - is some sort of authoritative text and that the New Testament is too except that it's not really and it all really happened in REAL TIME but not really, except when it did ... etc.! Do you get my point? I get rather dizzy talking with you. But I enjoy it, and am really glad you are persevering.
    Well it is a pleasure to see you having to let go of your notions which up to now have worked so well for you! Confusion is a part of life. Embrace it! The crap you call Christianity is a sad bag of bones which by itself cannot provide for the needs of the human spirit. You are a seeker... I admire that in a person.
    Well, I'm not sure I've actually "had to let go" of any notions. You haven't shown any confusion in anything I've written as far as I can tell. But I agree that the world of busy buzzing confusing amazingness is a preferred place to be. It reminds me of this variation on the Lord's Prayer from Finnegans Wake by James Joyce (which opens with the words I italicized in my second paragraph above):

    In the name of Annah the Allmaziful, the Everliving, the Bringer of Plurabilities, haloed be her eve, her singtime sung, her rill be run, unhemmed as it is uneven!

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    Once again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there my friend,

    While it's true that koans are contradictory, it does not follow that all contradictions are koans! If all contradictions are koans, you don't need the Bible, you could just as well be a Mystical Mormon or Muslim or Sunday Comics reader.

    It seems to me that you are just arbitrarily (and with no good reason) declaring that the Bible is the perfect inerrant inspired Word of God no matter what it actually says, and then whenever you find an error, contradiction, absurdity, or moral abomination attributed to God, you simply treat it as a "koan" or something "symbolic" or whatever. And so the book really teaches you nothing. It's all just an exercise in creative thinking. You could do exactly the same thing with any self-contradictory text. So this then leads us back, by a commodius vicus of recirculation, to the fundamental question about which we have been turning for many months - how do you discern between truth and falsehood? Why should anyone believe the Bible is any more true than any other ancient religious text?


    I've never said or suggested that the writers and redactors of the Bible were "stupid". On the contrary, they were the "elite" of their time since, as you noted, "stupid people don't usually know how to write" - especially back then when it was a rare talent.


    As you know, I've always said there could be some kind of God. But I see no reason to think that the God described in the Bible is the true God, for the many reasons I've explained many times.

    Though I agree truth is not always easy to find, I wouldn't say that it is "very complicated" in essence - on the contrary, once it is seen it is usually very plain and easily demonstrated. Falsehood, on the other hand, hides under a veil of "complication". This is because it takes lots of words to confuse things enough to give the appearance of justification of falsehood. I would think this should be common knowledge. Just listen to a lawyer if you don't believe me.


    I agree completely with the need for perseverance and commitment. I see nothing "crazy" about that at all.


    I don't think the number 8 is common to the flood stories found in many cultures.

    Your symbolic interpretation of the 8 is fine but still it seems rather idiosyncratic. How many people would interpret the flood story as having something to do with "saving the planet from total destruction"? That's not what the Bible teaches! On the contrary, in the immediate context of the flood story, Peter explains that the world would SOON be totally destroyed by fire! This is what I was talking about when I said that "we can all make up whatever we want". There are no standards by which to discern between the "true" and the "false" interpretations, and they are very idiosyncratic.


    There you go again! How many Bible believers would be happy to describe the Bible as a "book of magic"? The creative word in the Bible is God's not ours. You say that faith "actually worked in real time and changed reality". That's your belief. You have not shown any evidence of that. And is is the same thing folks in most religions say, so why should I believe one over the other?


    Trying to hang me by my own petard, I see!

    Well, that didn't work because you will note that I wasn't making up my own idiosyncratic interpretations, but rather showing correlations with things plainly taught in Scripture. It seems like you and I differ on this point. Much of what you say does not sound like things taught in the Bible. They sound more like your own private interpretations.


    Well, I'm not sure I've actually "had to let go" of any notions. You haven't shown any confusion in anything I've written as far as I can tell. But I agree that the world of busy buzzing confusing amazingness is a preferred place to be. It reminds me of this variation on the Lord's Prayer from Finnegans Wake by James Joyce (which opens with the words I italicized in my second paragraph above):

    In the name of Annah the Allmaziful, the Everliving, the Bringer of Plurabilities, haloed be her eve, her singtime sung, her rill be run, unhemmed as it is uneven!

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    Hi Richard:

    Ok... In all seriousness, Think THEORIES!... NO PROOF for anything will be sufficient for you anyways so for now I am not attempting to go there! You say I am alone in my understanding of Scripture but I am not! I even reference you! You don't think your analysis is wrong or of your own interpretation per se... And just for the record - The idea that the Bible functions as a book of Magic is NOT my original idea that statement comes from a very well known Christian Leader who heads a church with more than two million followers - who I just happen to agree with that particular statement. So I think that you are trying to side-line me just because I sound so strange to you and my understanding of the Bible is NOT a typical Fundamentalist veiwpoint per se.

    I wish I could wash your brain and you could start over with the Christian belief system or the Bible and its true meanings. You have too many dead ends for me to be able to convey the true meaning which is there imbedded in Scripture. This is not my interpretation per se... I think you are making the same pointless argument the big wigs made agaisnt your book! Just because you do not understand something does not mean that it is false! You keep making references to the fact that:

    It seems to me that you are just arbitrarily (and with no good reason) declaring that the Bible is the perfect inerrant inspired Word of God no matter what it actually says, and then whenever you find an error, contradiction, absurdity, or moral abomination attributed to God, you simply treat it as a "koan" or something "symbolic" or whatever.
    No and No! If you look at what I said I never said I believe the Bbile to be the "inerrant" anything! I said the Bible is the Word of GOD in that it reveals a system called "Saving Faith." The so called "errors" that we see in the Bible are not "inspired" per se... But despite these anomalies the holographs persit! The words are conveying a message and the Holy Spirit is still driving the enlightenment process home! It is beyond me why you keep ignoring this model! The facts become clear when we realize that the FACTS are not the issue all the time! The Truth is! And as I have said before FACTS or NOT TRUTH! The truth is a subtle thing which can only be understood through the Koan process or the meditation process. This is why I say the Bible is written as an Oriental book not as a Western book.... so that Greek is a corrupted language for the true meaning of the words to come accross like English or Latin. This is why it is absurd for Fundamentalists to insist on word inspiration of anything! The ideas however, still are peeking through the language despite all the "errors".

    Morality is a made up idea. One man's trash is another man's treasure. YOU act like GOD must live up to your STANDARD of moral judgment. Ok But what if your opinion is wrong? I know it's easy to get roped into thinking that our perspective is the right one. However, in the big picture it might be different. This is why I opt for the less leathal position of looking for hidden clues as to why the GOD of Love whould appear to be so Un-loving! The story is flawed... But the truth is still there waiting to be dug up and used as a way to save ourselves from self-destuction. Perhaps the surface story is just a way to hide the truth of the holographs! Or perhaps the Enemy of Souls planted a lot of weeds in the garden! Whatever the reason for all the crap it should not get in the way of the truth as seen through the meditative process as guided by the Holy Spirit. The surface level crap is just that - crap!

    You Said:
    "
    Though I agree truth is not always easy to find, I wouldn't say that it is "very complicated" in essence - on the contrary, once it is seen it is usually very plain and easily demonstrated.
    Totally disagree! If salvation akatruth/saving faith) was "easy" why is it called the "narrow way" - "And few there be that find it!"? Matthew 7:14

    So I know we say that the way to salvation is simple like believe in Jesus and say a prayer yada yada yada but that is a pack of lies! Nothing could be further from the truth! "Many are called...But few are chosen."

    Once again "Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned." You keep acting like logic can explain all truth and all processes having to do with GOD or the Bible. And that is just not the right method to understand the hidden truths in the Word which lie below the surface.


    how do you discern between truth and falsehood? Why should anyone believe the Bible is any more true than any other ancient religious text?
    Simple... The GOD of the WORD can raise you from the dead and give you life everlasting! No other GOD can do that! Period. I know! It happened to me. It happened to my uncle. It happened for many people who I know personally. The GOD of the Bible is real... you just have to find Him!



    TBC

    Namaste.

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 12-04-2013 at 02:04 AM.
    Mystykal

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