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  1. #21
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    Sorry...I know I've veered off into assumption here...or it must seem that way...but this is one of the first tests I'll subject a type to, in my mind.
    Last edited by kathryn; 11-08-2011 at 10:00 PM.

  2. #22
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    ....and the reason I'm assuming out loud is because, as you know, each time you do this it opens the files in the mind to be triggered, as you're looking...more possible correlations between wisdom/hook etc, as you're going through the biblewheel.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Hi Richard...that is very facinating about the hebrew letter/tzaddi hook being a possible off-shoot of wisdom. Assuming it is just for a moment, could we put it through another little test and see if we could use that interchageably in the levethian type?
    Also, would it then be connected to righteousness? Personally, I don't believe anyone has ever fully defined what "righteousness" means, because we're still so crooked or twisted in our thinking about these concepts. To me...it is more like a state of harmony...or literally "right ness" . Has nothing to do with a moral state....although because it is harmony, it resonates with the harmony placed within us. Could we say the levethian was brought to the surface with a hook/righteousness? Or....the crooked made "straight"...as it speaks of the highway in the book of Isaiah?
    I very much like your intuition that "righteousness" is more like a "state of harmony" than a "moral state." I've been thinking how much insight we would get if we used musical metaphors in our thinking rather than the typical "machine" metaphors or "visual" metaphors. All language is metaphoric, and it "colors" what we see (there's a visual metaphor).

    But as for "Leviathan" - what are you taking that as an image of? Why dies it seem significant to you? Personally, the whole "sea beast" think rigns bells (musical metaphor) with Jungian psychology. The sea is the unconscious and the beast represents the message to your conscious mind (whcih is like a little dinghy floating on the great ocean of your mind).
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Sorry...I know I've veered off into assumption here...or it must seem that way...but this is one of the first tests I'll subject a type to, in my mind.
    It's all good Sistah! Let's just roll with the flow and see where it leads.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    ....and the reason I'm assuming out loud is because, as you know, each time you do this it opens the files in the mind to be triggered, as you're looking...more possible correlations between wisdom/hook etc, as you're going through the biblewheel.
    Wisdom is like fishing. You have to wait (hakah, hk'x';) with your hook (hakah, hK'x;) in the deep of your subconscious mind. Beware! You might hook Leviathan which connects (levi) you to the great sea beast (tan).

    Just ramblin ...
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  6. #26
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    You know...I just thought of something. Levethian literally means twisted or crooked..doesn't it? A hook is crooked or twisted metal. Could leviathian (sp?) also be the hook or tool that has been fashioned to pull us/"him" in? Rather like those twin hook thingys that fishermen use. That fits with the properties of gematria with the number 18 representing polar opposite concepts...righteousness and crookedness (iniquity) on the same hook.

    The witness in nature/creation that demonstrates the old is used to grow the new? When a butterfly is in the PEWpah stage, the old cells liquify...and I believe serve as nourishment . (Are you there Rooooose? we need you)
    Or...fertilizer is even better. CRAP is therefore too, in a state of RIGHT NESS...but you wouldnt see it that way unless you were looking at it from a wide- angle lenses, without a pre-formed bias towards all things stinky.

    The only scripture that comes to mind immediately, as the witness from the logos...is the leaven in the bread of the pentecostal offering. Leaven always represents sin in scripture...so we have a tasty loaf of bread which has had the leaven cooked or burned out of it. But then again...the word sin carries no connotation of right/wrong as we would translate it either...it's more like "missing the mark"...isnt it?

    Anyway...if we can find more correlations closer to the root....there is alot to back it up.
    Last edited by kathryn; 11-08-2011 at 10:44 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I very much like your intuition that "righteousness" is more like a "state of harmony" than a "moral state." I've been thinking how much insight we would get if we used musical metaphors in our thinking rather than the typical "machine" metaphors or "visual" metaphors. All language is metaphoric, and it "colors" what we see (there's a visual metaphor). yes , exactly...and I agree with you fully about getting insight using the metaphor of music. Music, I think you would agree, uses the laws of nature to be audible(therefore given as a valid witness to the character and purpose of God)...and I personally believe it originates in the Heavenly realms. It is one of the "voices" used to draw us back to the garden for "consumation" me thinks. Wow..that's a tad spooky even for me! har!

    Seriously though, much of my understanding has come through the metaphors in music as well as painting. I work with chalk pastel...and for 75 percent of the time you are working on it, you are laying in the dark colors, one on top of another. You have to layer just so much so that you can blend the colors together, but not enough so that you destroy the layer underneath. If you put on too much, the lighter colors will be muddy and lose their intensity. And...if you're good at what you do...you know the moment you've put in enough. If you've done it satisfactorily, you can begin to throw in the "light". I learned that concept the hard way, trying to re-create my husband.


    But as for "Leviathan" - what are you taking that as an image of? Why dies it seem significant to you? Personally, the whole "sea beast" think rigns bells (musical metaphor) with Jungian psychology. The sea is the unconscious and the beast represents the message to your conscious mind (whcih is like a little dinghy floating on the great ocean of your mind).
    well...that works for me too! But...I also have good reason to believe leviathan is the carnal beast in man...who has formed a "head"...just like the tares in the parable. They had to ripen..or form "heads". Iniquity...as right (eous)ness, has to "ripen before it's removed.(or become utterly crooked )
    Last edited by kathryn; 11-08-2011 at 10:38 PM.

  8. #28
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    ha! I didn't specify the concept the pastels were supposed to be symbolizing...but I'm sure you caught the drift. For anyone who might not have...our dark or carnal characteristics are used to teach us...much like the Law was given, as a tool to "kill" the carnal man within us. (but being clothed in the robe of Righteousness during the process. (so the "light" might be thrown in:-)

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I very much like your intuition that "righteousness" is more like a "state of harmony" than a "moral state." I've been thinking how much insight we would get if we used musical metaphors in our thinking rather than the typical "machine" metaphors or "visual" metaphors. All language is metaphoric, and it "colors" what we see (there's a visual metaphor). yes , exactly...and I agree with you fully about getting insight using the metaphor of music. Music, I think you would agree, uses the laws of nature to be audible(therefore given as a valid witness to the character and purpose of God)...and I personally believe it originates in the Heavenly realms. It is one of the "voices" used to draw us back to the garden for "consumation" me thinks. Wow..that's a tad spooky even for me! har!

    Seriously though, much of my understanding has come through the metaphors in music as well as painting. I work with chalk pastel...and for 75 percent of the time you are working on it, you are laying in the dark colors, one on top of another. You have to layer just so much so that you can blend the colors together, but not enough so that you destroy the layer underneath. If you put on too much, the lighter colors will be muddy and lose their intensity. And...if you're good at what you do...you know the moment you've put in enough. If you've done it satisfactorily, you can begin to throw in the "light". I learned that concept the hard way, trying to re-create my husband.

    But as for "Leviathan" - what are you taking that as an image of? Why dies it seem significant to you? Personally, the whole "sea beast" think rigns bells (musical metaphor) with Jungian psychology. The sea is the unconscious and the beast represents the message to your conscious mind (whcih is like a little dinghy floating on the great ocean of your mind).
    well...that works for me too! But...I also have good reason to believe leviathan is the carnal beast in man...who has formed a "head"...just like the tares in the parable. They had to ripen..or form "heads". Iniquity...as right (eous)ness, has to "ripen before it's removed.(or become utterly crooked )
    It seems to me that the "carnal" (physical) aspect of our humanity has gotten a bum rap. First, there is the false concept that it has been "twisted" and "perverted" by a "sin nature." That idea is not taught in the Bible, as we explored in some detail in my thread called Sin Nature: The Phologiston of Christian Theology?.

    Second, the Word became Flesh, so obviously "flesh" is not in and of itself "sinful" or "twisted" or "perverted." The whole problem as I understood it when I was a Christian is that the flesh is out of harmony with the spirit. (See how the conversation begins to loop back on itself? This is a primary sign of following our intuition/spirit as we search out the truth.) This is the plain teaching of Scripture - the flesh and spirit can be contrary to one another. But that contrariness doesn't have to have a moral overtone (musical metaphor). It could be seen as counterpoint (again, as in music). I mean, is it not obvious that there is great value in being an incarnate creature? That's what this whole game is all about! When I here Christian speak as if the whole purpose of this world was to "get saved and go to heaven" I always wonder why God didn't just create the souls he wanted to be in heaven in heaven, and avoid the whole blood history of this physical world. Obviously, there is great value to the Creator in our physicality. I think Christianity has totally missed the point.

    Of course, there also is a lot of wisdom that speaks about the corruption of physicality, and how we should seek the things of the spirit. But the teaching that we must "mortify the deeds of the flesh" leads to great error if we misinterpret it to mean that the flesh itself is bad.

    And getting back to the theme of "crooked" - that is indeed the form of the snake, is it not? And is it a "coincidence" that the snake is the symbol of Wisdom? Not merely in the Bible, but the world over. And this reminds me of one of my all time favorite verses:

    Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    ha! I didn't specify the concept the pastels were supposed to be symbolizing...but I'm sure you caught the drift. For anyone who might not have...our dark or carnal characteristics are used to teach us...much like the Law was given, as a tool to "kill" the carnal man within us. (but being clothed in the robe of Righteousness during the process. (so the "light" might be thrown in:-)
    In as much as "carnality" refers to the mind focused only on matter and not on spirit, then yes, I can see how that could lead to error. But we are embodied for a purpose! Let us rejoice in that purpose, and to use a Christian phrase, use it to glorify God).

    Oh ... and that reminds me of another question. What in the world does it mean to "glorify God?" I should start a thread on that I guess.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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