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Thread: The God Concept

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    The Bible says that God's children will not experience eternal torment.

    What does the Bible say about those who have never heard of the Gospel?

    Rick
    That's a good point. It's how I approached this question when I was a Christian. The Bible plainly states that not everyone is a "child of God."

    And that's one reason I reject that version of the Christian faith. The verse that says that can be interpreted in a way that does not imply eternal conscious torment, either by a theory of annihilationism or universalism. But if it's true that God does intend to create beings to suffer eternal conscious torment, then I might was well be one of them, since there is nothing anyone could do about it anyway. Unless you want to say that God leaves such a horror in the hands of his ignorant and confused short-lived creatures. If he does that, then he's not nearly as "kind" as mos Christians would claim. It's as if you placed poisoned candy in front of your five year old child and told him not to eat it ... and then left the room and sent in a young man to entice him to disobey you. Is that what you would do? Set up you own child to be poisoned and the you would cast him away to suffer eternal conscious torment? Is that not the story the Bible teaches?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #72
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    God ~ Spirit ~ Father ~ Light ~ Love ~ Mother ~ Word ~ Life ~ Son ~ You ~ Me!

    I liked your perspective of God!

    In my opinion, to know God starts by believing God is!
    Then from believing God i,s one can search for what God is and define what God is not!
    I think God makes choices.
    He chooses to be himself and encourages others to be themselves.
    He wants everyone to be what he made them to be.
    For according to his word we are fearfully and wonderfully made.
    He wants us to know who we are, because by knowing who we are, we will know what and who we are not.
    Then we will know more of God.
    I believe when we remember who we are, we will remember we are children of God, and so we can stop trying to be God and be like our Father.
    Then we can stop trying to know God and we can begin to know our Father.
    According to the Word of God light reveals light!
    Let there be light!
    IEASOUS ABBAAMMAH MARIA ~ (Anagram) I AM ~ I AM MAN ~ The Son of Man ~ Jesus.

    The mathematical total of this definition perspective of God is 7281 Base 1 English Gematria. ~ seven two eight one = 206 Base 1 and relates to the Bible Wheel as 206 is WORD

    One can conclude that God is the WORD and man is the son of the WORD or the WORD made flesh.

    206 ~ 26

    The Number 26: The Tetragrammaton YHVH

    The Logos Star - Sevenfold geometric representation of the prime Number 373

    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Deuteronomy 6.4

    The Holy Name (YHVH) is integrated with Elohim (God, 86) and Ho Pater (The Father, 559) in the Unity Holograph. It is the personal Name of God that carries the connotation of he who is. It is based on the verb hayah - meaning to be. It is closely related to God's memorial name I AM THAT I AM (543).

    The Number 26

    The LORD [Deu 6.4]

    IEASOUS ABBAAMMAH MARIA (I AM) the WORD made flesh Jesus Christ. = 2940 Base 6 for man.
    2940 ~ 294 ~ Bible Wheel

    The Number 294 - Christ and The Church

    For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

    Hebrews 7.1f

    The Number 294

    The God of Abraham ~ The Great Light ~ My Son, My Firstborn ~ The Key of David ~ Melchizedek ~ Divine ~ Church ~ City of David ~ The faithful from among the sons of men
    ~ The Tabernacle ~ The Mouth of the Righteous ~ Good Teacher (vocative) ~ Purple ~ SweetAroma ~ To the Saints (acc.) ~ My heart shall not fear

    One can conclude that God is IEASOUS ABBAAMMAH MARIA and has become through his WORD JESUS CHRIST and all who believe upon him as EMMANUEL, become the WORD made flesh. = 1398 Base 1 for the Hebrew. & 8388 Base 6 for Greek! ~ Bible Wheel.

    1398 ~ Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
    8388 ~ 3 within 888 ~ Iesous ~ Jesus.

    Blessings of Light
    Thomas ***

    Every word written to *** mathematically totals 151272 base 6 for Man/Greek. ~ one five one two seven two = 1746 (English Gematria) = Honorificabilitudinitatibus = The End of unrighteousness = Exploration of Revelation =* Split a piece of wood, and I am there. = 1746 ~ (1.7462571428571 ft ) which is the length of "The sacred Cubit" = 138 Base 1 ~ 138 Base 6 = I AM.

    When Honorificabilitudinitatibus the longest Latin word becomes an Anagram. ~ Having one name of righteousness is faith in Christ, as being in love is to un do imprisoned nature in time, as through Ieasous body us saves. = 1380 Base 1, ~ 138 = Divine NAME ABBAAMMAH ~ DNA ~ 138 B6 for man = I AM.

    IEASOUS is the spiritual aspect of the son of man, Iesous containing all the basic vowels. Y is another story.

    My very first expression of Honorificabilitudinitatibus was :
    Having one name of righteousness is faith in Christos, as being in love is to un do imprisoned nature in time, as times-through Ieasous body us saves. = 8880. ~ 888 = Jesus Messiah = The Passover (English Gematria base 6)

    8880 Base 6 relating from a Greek Perspective to a Hebrew perspective is 1480 Base 1 and relates through the Bible Wheel as 148.

    The Number 148 - Victory of the Passover Lamb

    That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD's passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

    Exodus 12.27

    The Number 148

    Passover ~ Pesach ~ Victory, Netsach ~ Netsach ~ Sons of God [Job 38.7] ~ Beni Elohim ~ Promises [2Cor 1.20] ~ Ever, Always [S# H5331]

    Clay [S# H2635] ~ Flour [S# H7058]






    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    God is Unmanifest and manifests in stages or levels of existence.

    We cannot understand God as the Unmanifest but he reflects Himself into and interpenetrates this/His creation which is/are these levels of manifestation.
    The Qabala is the study of the tree of life glyph which is an attempt to sort this out.
    But another way of looking at it might be an onion. It is formed of layers, yet juice permeates it and the smell not only permeates it but extends far beyond it.
    The Bible wheel is like an onion with four rings.
    The outer ring is the most abstract being the letters or principles of creation.
    How God works.
    The innermost ring is New Testament when God is showing Himself in manifestations (Miracles,signs and wonders etc,) by both Jesus and Saints and Revelation.
    Yet He interpenetrates all of the books.



    We can only understand God within whatever stage or level we are operating from. But God reveals Himself on each stage of operation. Because He interpenetrates it all. Like the juice of an onion.

    Ps 68:33 To him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, which were of old; lo, he doth send out his voice, and that a mighty voice.

    The bible relates these levels of existence or manifestation. Heaven of heavens, Third heaven, the Earth and the lowest parts of the Earth, Sheol, etc.

    Ps 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
    Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

    We cannot understand or experience God except through some level of His manifestation/Creation.

    I have been seeing the idea of Reality as being a reflection of what we believe in our hearts. Self reflective. We get out of it what we put into it.
    I'll quote myself here what we were talking about this morning on the speaking in tongues thread.




    Ge 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.
    Ge 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.
    Ge 21:6 And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear (circumcision of the heart) will laugh with me.

    And from the Tabernacle of David thread.



    The idea of a mother being the ground that we plant in also carries the idea of a self reflective Universe or Reality. So we reap what we sow. Our reality is dependant upon the seed we sow. It grows up after it's own kind. This is our "doctrine" or belief system. Our idea of "what's going on."

    This ocean of Consciousness (Manifestation on all it's levels) can be very confusing when we begin to touch on a level we are not accustomed to.
    But a loving Father interpenetrates it all. As shown by Jesus, the very image of the Father.
    Jesus walked on water and even the sea obeyed him. This is the Firmament.

    Just some thoughts,

    Bob

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
    I liked your perspective of God!

    In my opinion, to know God starts by believing God is!
    Then from believing God i,s one can search for what God is and define what God is not!
    I think God makes choices.
    He chooses to be himself and encourages others to be themselves.
    He wants everyone to be what he made them to be.
    For according to his word we are fearfully and wonderfully made.
    He wants us to know who we are, because by knowing who we are, we will know what and who we are not.
    Then we will know more of God.
    I believe when we remember who we are, we will remember we are children of God, and so we can stop trying to be God and be like our Father.
    Then we can stop trying to know God and we can begin to know our Father.
    According to the Word of God light reveals light!
    Let there be light!
    IEASOUS ABBAAMMAH MARIA ~ (Anagram) I AM ~ I AM MAN ~ The Son of Man ~ Jesus.

    The mathematical total of this definition perspective of God is 7281 Base 1 English Gematria. ~ seven two eight one = 206 Base 1 and relates to the Bible Wheel as 206 is WORD

    One can conclude that God is the WORD and man is the son of the WORD or the WORD made flesh.

    206 ~ 26

    The Number 26: The Tetragrammaton YHVH

    The Logos Star - Sevenfold geometric representation of the prime Number 373

    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Deuteronomy 6.4

    The Holy Name (YHVH) is integrated with Elohim (God, 86) and Ho Pater (The Father, 559) in the Unity Holograph. It is the personal Name of God that carries the connotation of he who is. It is based on the verb hayah - meaning to be. It is closely related to God's memorial name I AM THAT I AM (543).

    The Number 26

    The LORD [Deu 6.4]

    IEASOUS ABBAAMMAH MARIA (I AM) the WORD made flesh Jesus Christ. = 2940 Base 6 for man.
    2940 ~ 294 ~ Bible Wheel
    Hey there Thomas,

    Welcome to our forum!



    That's quite a full post you have there -- too much for me to know where to start a response. But I did want to say "welcome" and I look forward to your contributions to our many conversations.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #74
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    Is it irrational to believe in God? Most scientists don't believe in God but they could be wrong. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God".....Stephen Hawking and company are fools. This is an interesting read:

    – Thu, Dec 22, 2011

    Banda Aceh, Indonesia (The Jakarta Post/ANN)- The world's most famous physicist Prof. Stephen Hawking has declared that God does not exist.

    Hawking joins the opinion of several other world-class scientists like Richard Dawkins, Peter Atkins, James Watson, Victor Stenger and many others who deny the existence of God in the name of the latest advancements in physics, biology and other scientific domains.

    The so-called "New Atheism" (championed by Richard Dawkins) sees God as a delusion, a by product of the mind of superstitious and scientifically uneducated people.

    "Because there is a law like gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing ... Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists and why we are here". This is the conclusion of The Grand Design, Hawking's latest book.

    Hawking's assertion is based on the predictions of his famous M-theory. But is Hawking's theory really an ultimate explanation? Has the grand master of physics checkmated the grand master of the universe? Let's examine things in more detail.

    Einstein's theory of relativity says that time is not the same for everyone but is "relative" to how fast one is moving. At variable speeds or in the presence of weak and strong gravity time behaves elastically, it can stretch and shrink and even stop.

    This phenomenon has been observed by measuring the rate of atomic clocks mounted on supersonic jet planes moving at different speeds at various distances from the Earth's surface.

    Under extreme gravity like at the moment of the birth of the universe (the big bang), gravity was so intense that time was "compressed" to a zero point. Not only space but time itself was born at that moment. There was no "before".

    Hawking states that a "law of gravity" exists and this (not God) creates the universe. Hawking surely also believes that gravity itself exists (since a law of gravity without "gravity" to describe would be meaningless). Now, if we say that X creates Y, we must presuppose the existence of X in the first place to bring Y into existence. Likewise, we must presuppose the existence of gravity to bring the universe into existence.

    But Einstein's theory of relativity shows that this is illogical because it is like saying that gravity existed "before time" which is absurd. Did gravity spontaneously generate itself then? It is important to realize that it is logically impossible for a cause (gravity) to bring about an effect (its own creation) without already being in existence.

    Hawking sustains that "the universe creates itself out of nothing". But Hawking's nothing is actually something: "Gravity" (first self-contradiction). Hawking then says that the universe creates itself (second self-contradiction). Thus, the conclusion of The Grand Design is actually a double self-contradiction.

    Let's consider an Apple computer. Should we account for it by mentioning its inventor (Steve Jobs) or should we follow Hawking's reasoning and say that the Apple computer arose naturally from the laws of physics?

    It actually makes no sense to choose between Jobs and the laws of physics to account for the existence of the Apple computer since both levels of explanation are needed. Jobs is needed to conceive and design the machine and the laws of physics are needed to make the computer processor work.

    These two levels of explanations are not mutually exclusive but they complement each other. Science is concerned with "how" questions (how does the computer work?) and with functional questions (why is that circuit there?).

    But science does not ask the "why" question of purpose (why was the computer built?) Purpose (Jobs in this case) does not even appear in the scientific account. But it would be ridiculous to say that Jobs did not exist. He is the actual reason why there is an Apple computer in the first place.

    This is exactly what many scientists (including Hawking) do with God. They ask questions which exclude God ("how" questions and "functional" questions) and then they claim that God is unnecessary. This reasoning shows that offering a choice between God and the law of gravity is, in fact, illogical as both are needed.

    Hawking in his book confuses two levels of explanation; "personal agency" and "physical law" and he attributes creative power (which is a personal agency) to a physical law.

    Let's look at another example. If I put ¿1 in my bank account and another euro, the next the law of arithmetic 1+1=2 will explain "why" I have ¿2 in my account, it will not "create" ¿2 for me and it will surely not tell me anything about the purpose of me having ¿2 in my account.

    Likewise, the law of gravity does not "create" gravity it only "explains" what's already there (gravity) and "predicts" how gravity behaves.

    The bottom line is that the laws of physics cannot create anything or cause anything to happen. Rather than ultimate creators of the universe, they are just descriptions of how things behave.

    What actually needs explaining is the logical characteristics and intelligibility of nature and the universe, not whether the universe generates itself spontaneously out of nothing or not.

    Nobel laureate in physics Richard Feynman once stated: "The fact that there are rules like the law of gravity is some sort of miracle as it leads to the possibility of prediction; it tells you what you would expect to happen in an experiment you have not yet done".

    Not denying the genius of Hawking, it appears that self-contradiction is possible even for world-famous scientists. The problem is that sometimes the illogicality of certain statements is obscured by the authority of those who make such statements and the general public often fails to see this.

    World-wide prestige and distinguished scientific authority do not compensate for faulty logic and far from being a delusion the God hypothesis remains a rational explanation of why there is a universe rather than nothing.


    God Bless and Merry Christmas!
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    Einstein's theory of relativity says that time is not the same for everyone but is "relative" to how fast one is moving. At variable speeds or in the presence of weak and strong gravity time behaves elastically, it can stretch and shrink and even stop.

    This phenomenon has been observed by measuring the rate of atomic clocks mounted on supersonic jet planes moving at different speeds at various distances from the Earth's surface.
    Hi Cheow

    At the reception of my eldest daughter's wedding, I met two young men in the wedding party (2 graduate friends of my son-in-law) who worked on the space shuttle program, one involved in launch details and the other in preparation of experimentation with crystals on board the shuttle. While we were sharing a table together the conversation quickly moved to physics. I raised the question as to proof that time is affected by motion and the answer came quickly... Clocks on board the shuttle must be re-calibrated to coincide with the earth based clocks because the clocks on board the shuttle, moving through space are running slower.

    Merry Christmas to you too Cheow.

    John
    Last edited by jce; 12-23-2011 at 09:59 AM.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Hi Cheow

    At the reception of my eldest daughter's wedding, I met two young men in the wedding party (2 graduate friends of my son-in-law) who worked on the space shuttle program, one involved in launch details and the other in preparation of experimentation with crystals on board the shuttle. While we were sharing a table together the conversation quickly moved to physics. I raised the question as to proof that time is affected by motion and the answer came quickly... Clocks on board the shuttle must be re-calibrated to coincide with the earth based clocks because the clocks on board the shuttle, moving through space are running slower.

    Merry Christmas to you too Cheow.

    John
    And there is an effect from not being as deep in the gravity well of the earth. Clocks run faster in stronger gravitational fields. See gravitational time dilation.

    But I think we've digressed! I wonder if we can get this conversation back on topic?

    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    And there is an effect from not being as deep in the gravity well of the earth. Clocks run faster in stronger gravitational fields. See gravitational time dilation.

    But I think we've digressed! I wonder if we can get this conversation back on topic?

    Ah yes.. the beauty of digression. Wouldn't it be nice if we all didn't.

    John

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Ah yes.. the beauty of digression. Wouldn't it be nice if we all didn't.

    John
    Not at all - I love digressions! They make the forum go round. The beauty of it is that we can always split off the digression into a new thread.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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