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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Yakima, Wa
    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Yes, Richard that's excellent insight.

    Your thread "An Exegesis of John 14" brings out some great meaning to the understanding of coming unto them. Which John 14 has some parallels to 1 Peter 2:4-5 as to becoming like Jesus the Corner stone, we also become living stones building up a spiritual house.
    As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (NIV)
    To the place where Jesus is as the Corner stone we also as living stones of the Father's house. Comparing where Jesus is that we maybe also.
    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
    The House of God.
    Excellent amplification of this theme. The "House of God" is indeed the Church, the Body of Believers, as stated explicitly throughout the epistles. These insights are starting to snowball into a massively coherent and irrefutable argument. Peter said believers in the first century were "coming to" [pros-erchomai] the "living stone" (a symbol of Christ). And believers are are likened to "living stones" in the Temple of God just as in Revelation they are likened to "pillars" (Rev 3:12). Obviously, these kinds of "comings" are spiritual/symbolic. And it just so happens that this same word is used in Hebrews (Spoke 14) which is strongly linked to John 14 (as shown in my Exegesis article):
    Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come [pros-erchomai] boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
    Obviously, this is a spiritual meaning - we do not get on a physical rocket ship and fly off somewhere when we "come" unto the throne of grace! And we see the same spiritual meaning again in the same book:
    Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto [pros-erchomai] God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
    The idea of "coming unto God" is a spiritual act. And again:
    Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near [pros-erchomai] with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
    And again:
    Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to [pros-erchomai] God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    I could go on, but there is no need. The word "pros-erchomai" is frequently used to denote a spiritual "coming" just like "erchomai." It's all laid out quite explicitly throughout Scripture.

    It is a travesty to see major Futurist teachers pervert John 14:1-3 into a proof text for the Rapture. It's hard to believe that their minds could be so corrupt. The claim to worship Jesus who said, just three verses later, that he is the "truth." How can they so freely spit on the truth they claim to worship?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come [erchomai] again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

    I believe this was discussed before, and it's probably a good time to discuss this passage again. Jesus tells the Apostles that He would come back for them, so that where HE is, THEY would be also.

    I would like to ask our Futurist's a simple question.

    WHERE are the Apostles right now?

    Hi Joe;
    I agree, a good time for another look at this.

    So often [even] we and others in the past have read these words as if they were written by the apostles to a corporal 'church' 2000 yrs in the future. We are 'indoctrinated' to understand them in this way due to some of the ECF's pressured, forced codified doctrines and interpretations; and in part to the passing down of those interpretation by some parts of the church through creeds and "Doctrinal statements" as often based on select ECF writings.

    Isn't the accurate hermeneutic to consider these [gospels] as historical accounts including conversations that Jesus Had with his friends that were compiled to give a written record of those conversations and events primarily to those who would first read them, [in 40-50 AD] and then also for those generations who would come later [who were afar off] reflect upon and bear witness with. By not considering the historical conversations with those individuals, we miss the intent of the historical record.

    Shouldn't we consider how the original hearers of the words were to [and would have] understood them?? Isn't the word "YOU" directed towards the lives of the apostles who would soon witness his death?

    Edit; Insert John 6 historical conversations posted below here.

    Didn't Jesus tell Peter that he would forsake and deny him 3 times that night..
    Can we Place ourselves in the mind and lives of the apostles after his death? They [Peter] had previously declared when others left and misunderstood his teaching...."where shall we go".... only you have the words of eternal life"...

    What was there feeling and thoughts as he lay in the grave and they knew the rabbi's would soon be hunting them also. Would they have to go back to following the rabbi's? Would the feelings of suppression, oppression and unimportance return??

    But they remembered that he promised that he would come back TO THEM!!!

    I find a connection of these verses in John 14 with John 6 and Jesus' promise to receive them unto himself..

    32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
    33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
    34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
    35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

    37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believe on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
    42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
    43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

    44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
    46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
    47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    48I am that bread of life.
    49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
    50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
    51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
    52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
    53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
    56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
    57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
    58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
    60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

    61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
    62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
    67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
    68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
    69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

    70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
    71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
    One preliminary comment to make is that Jesus explained and clarified in vs 61-63 that his words; His incarnate life work; and his teachings to BE "Spirit and Life" which they would "eat" by their belief in and emulation of Him. Jesus wasn't talking about physically eating his body/blood or of physically taking the bread and the wine; but about eating his words and works and manners of Life, Love, tribute and belief in him as Creator incarnate.

    He was contrasting His teachings with the former [unspiritual] bread that formed the nation of the mosaic covenant. His words, teachings and works of his life and the heart belief and knowledge confession of his being from the Father would be the foundation for the establishment and resurrection of the new nation of believers in the Creator of Life.

    I think the analogy with John 14 and the support that his receiving them unto himself is found in vs 37-38 and the references to "raising them up" at the last day. Judas is contrast against those who would be raised up in the last day. He did not permit Himself patience and faith to receive Jesus' forgiveness as he didn't apparently believe before that time.

    The 'raising up' at the last day is I believe a spiritual raising up at the last day of ignorance, doubt, lies and disbelief about God's reality. It would be the last day of the power of the law of sin and spiritual separation [death] from God [for those who believed]. Doubt, uncertainty;lies, fear, self abasement, shame disappeared with the resurrection of Christ and his joyous, accepting and proving reappearance to those who believed. The 'last day' would be progressively replaced with the 'new creation' of the new Garden.

    Can you or others see, understand and agree with this association between John 14 and 6?

    Was Peter and the apostles 'raised up' in their spirits as they were recieved by Christ and continued to Live; while impatient, disbelieving Judas was not?

    By including Judas as not being raised up in the context of the passage, I believe affirms or establishes that 'the last day' is referring to the last day of the law of sin, spiritual death from God and of any condemnation against life that was fulfilled in his incarnation and life work.

    "That where I am, there you may be also....

    Jesus, the love of God, in Spirit, went to be within the approval [and abode] of the judgment of the Father of Life and truth [the ancient of Days; Dan 7]. The Father and the approval of the kingdom of Life is with those who believe, receive and are willing to BE, Do, and REcieve the will/freedom of the father.

    Thanks for the topic Joe.
    This is an area that futurists have been indoctrinated to believe is a strong support for the yet future return of Christ. But an inductive study and observations of those who know the Spirit reveals that he was referring to events that would happen to the apostles and be continued in each continual subsequent generation. It is a spiritual and super-natural relationship.

    As we've mentioned before, the Hellenist jews are likely partly responsible for the indoctrinations and infiltration of the ECF's codified interpretations and mind as well as the censorship and destruction of other documents and writings of the early church.

    There are continual lessons, principles, laws and truths of this kingdom and his coming to them after the resurrection, in the indwelling of the Spirit with Power [Pentecost] and in the resurrection from the attempted genocide of the freed and empowered believers by the influence of the unbelieving Jews through the 40 yr gestation period of the confirmation and developing of the body and kingdom.

    Thanks again for the topic. This section in John 14 is one of the groups of scripture which is often presented to attempt to prove a future "Return" of Christ to 'end the world' rather than coming back to the apostles after the cross, in the indwelling and in protection of the believers to end of the mosaic covenant. Most often, these are taken from their contextual "Spirit".
    Southern Baptist.
    Portland bible college
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 10-18-2011 at 02:08 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    South Carolina
    Hey bro; nice to see you chatting on the wheel again.

    In reference to the "you", or in Henry's case, the "ye" principal, this is based on a popular Church method of communication called "transcendence". So when Futurists read New or Old Testament writings, they believe that unless certain facts are first proven to accommodate a fulfillment of any Prophetic aspect, unfulfilled Prophesies are "transcended" to the next generation, and so on, until it reaches fulfillment. With regards to Jesus telling Peter that he would deny Him three times, they would obviously not transcend that passage. But with Prophesy that they believe has not yet been fulfilled, they believe it is to be transcended until it reaches the generation of fulfillment.

    Henry's "ye" principal is a cop-out; again, not to poke fun at him. But it truly is a cop-out. "Ye" is simply a pro-noun denoting "you all". So if a speaker is talking to 100 people, and the speaker says, "you all", that is a direct line of communication meant for them. For example, when Jesus said, "When you all shall see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near; even at the doors". Jesus was referring to them. Now Futurists will instead transcend this verse into a distant generation. They believe in the popular British/American theory of Israel of the flesh being reborn. Thus they apply Luke 21 to the year 1948 (or 1967) and transcend the OD to fit modern day activity. This is absurd, to say the least.

    Lastly, you are correct. The New Testament writings were collected to bear witness of Jesus. It was not intended to be a generational collection of New Testament Prophesy for all Churches to heed until some predetermined, yet unidentifiable time in the future. Yet that's how the New Testament writings are being read. Each New Testament letter, especially from Paul, was nothing more than a recorded conversation from one end of the telephone, figuratively speaking. It would be much better if we had the other end of the conversation recorded. Even Revelation was meant for the 7 Churches chosen during that time (and not for us 2000 years later), yet its value is important to us because it serves as a reminder for us on any faults, or else, success's any of us might have. Just as the Old Testament examples of disobedience served as an example for the early New Testament Church, both the Old and the New Testament examples of disobedience serves as an example for all generations. But with regards to Prophesy, I view them as all completely fulfilled. One such reason is what this Thread is all about; the "erchomai" of Jesus to gather His elect, but more specifically, "His own". Jesus tells them, "and if I go to prepare a place for you, I will erchomai again to receive you unto myself, that WHERE I AM "ye/you all" may be also. I thus asked the question, "where are the Apostles"? and Cheow correctly answered, "with the Lord....." If they are with the Lord, WHERE HE IS AT, then this can only mean one thing; His erchomai occurred spiritually, as we Preterist's have been maintaining, and He thus came back for them, just as He promised. If they got to heaven where Jesus is at, then it's only because His erchomai involved receiving them, along with coming in the cloud of judgment, or else, deliverance to those who were waiting for him.

    Well, got a little long winded; sorry bro. I'm enjoying these discussions now; the first time in a while.

    God bless.

    Last edited by TheForgiven; 10-14-2011 at 02:38 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #14
    I've just been reminded of the Ye and You usage and differentiation in the KJV from the one link in the Geneva bible site.

    It is as you say the plural of you, yet the plural of the original hearers without necessarily inferring a corporal and futuristic entity [as Henry declares] English does not have a single word for 'yous' which would refer to a plural group of individual souls hearing the words rather than a single individual. Youens, youins, you all are all attempts and slangs. And yet we claim that civilization has advanced so greatly, couldn't we put an 's' on the end of you to refer to a plural group of individual souls??

    It is the principles and the statutes that are revealed through these events which remained..

    When you get a chance, feel free to study the John 6 passage. The comments about Peter were intended to be associated with that section.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 10-15-2011 at 01:18 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

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