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  1. #141
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    Hi Charis,

    Likeness is not image.
    You mention you do not understand that at the end of your post, so study.
    Forget the Redwood and ask the Queen of the South.

    You say that the verbs are present tense, but which ones are present tense continuous?
    Context and "eth"s make a big difference as to what is meant in any given passage.

    Ok, not from or of, "through" is most appropriate. The blessing/curse manifests through/of/from/by the Law. No Law, no sin, no blessing, no curse--and vice versa.

    Yes, stoney legalists are devoid the spirit through/of/from/by the Christ.

    Maybe i do not understand temple service as well as you or even why the mercy seat, so you need to teach me. While you are at it, explain the horns of the altar and the blood service there as well as the difference between shedding, gathering, pouring, and splattering; what should be cleansed before and after, with what, how, and why. I'm sure more questions will come after that because i really am curious.

    Shalom,

    Timmy

    ps. I would like to know the purpose and symbolism for each of those activities with those ordinances that are passing away so the telestai work of Yeshua can be more clearly related to the dailies.

  2. #142
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    Ola Charis
    And Abeulo Esteban

    Charisma?
    I've been told you have taken the previous response wrongly.

    If you took offence, none was intended; though reading it now, it even sent me a swift sharp shock...and thoughts of Richard last night talking about a surgeon's scalpel with precision and bedside manners are apropriate thereafter...in this vein, the post above will be explained.

    First though, with you, i have usually put up with pacing and leading you use, so it is completely out of character that i responded to you in the way i did. I am not right having done this. Please accept my apology: i am truly sorry.



    Not to excuse my action, but for the sake of anyone reading along and possibly getting the wrong impression about Timmy, in the immortal words of Fire Marshall Bill,"Let me tell ya' something!"

    Surgery is undeniably detailed and precise, though a muhadeen's flailing scimitar quickly cuts away opposition...and the surest swiftest means of permanently eliminating headaches is not with medication or meditation, but a chainsaw.

    Although Leatherface manifested through previous words, benefit was the intent. None the less, i am not looking for excuses because there is not one. The intention of the above post was not to offend. Perhaps it appears out of character but it is not. The question for hermano mi abuelo was loaded bait, and you took it upon yourself to question what you have not yet chosen to even wrap your head around, much less obey.

    I do not expect anybody to obey mitzvot because i say so; but, when somebody comes along and says G_d has changed his expectations for us through obedience found in Yeshua, especially with those who mean the most to me, there comes a time when the surgeon's scrubs come off, and the warrior's gear is donned. If that fails, overalls, leather gloves, and dungarees are usually sufficient protection wielding a chainsaw.

    Thinking that wrong way leads to double mindedness and duplicity. Hypocrisy follows close on it's heels.

    What was written remains as a quant reminder that i usually tire quickly of cat and mouse with most...though with you, i have been very patient...for how long? Two years, or to date is it longer?

    You know what you are alluding to. So please just say it, and prove that point. If not, please quit with all the cut and paste without clear explanation and meaning.

    Life is short this sojourn, so 'know' the Good, and G_d shall restore what the locust has eaten away.

    The question to hermano mi abuelo was loaded bait, and that was the intent of the ending sarcasm. In splattering the blood over the assembly, the Law of Moshe, and the ark--as well as the Mercy Seat, this example shows us that G_d does not make exceptions, but includes all these things sprinkled and covered as part and parcel of ONE COVENANT. In Hebrews, it is the ordinances that are discussed as NOT done away with--
    (like the majority says...and of course they are always right, right? See Mt. 7.12-27)
    --but rather are in the process of fading away...like a shadow that disappears when there is no longer any place where light does not penetrate. The other 22 aspects that comprise the instructed Law of Torah, are still valid, though all of them have not been re instituted into effect as yet.

    It is not a matter for us to choose and compartmentalise, distinguishing any Word that has ultimately proceeded from G_d. It is all one.

    Neither can i, or you, or anybody else decide how others we are not responsible to/for might live out what G_d's dealings with them may be. Whoever or whatever is your master, through the same--in service to--one stands or falls. Nobody can be a slave to more than one master. You can serve yourself, G_d, objects, locales, things, sin, or the devil...but you are always a slave to somebody or something.

    When we exhibit our identity through our actions in replication of Yeshua's example obeying what Eloheinu says do, we are walking in the light as He is in the light. Any other way is not "faith(fulness) above the Law."

    So much more could be said about all of this, but i do not have much time...so mincing words ends now, and welcome to Tim Finnegan's Peak.

    I really do love and care so much i might sit in that day with everyone here, at the feet of Rebbe Yahoshuvah ben Yaweh in His kingdom come to earth...even people here that i have not said a peep to yet, like oxbox and sylvius etc.

    All of us have been given extremely great and precious promises in living by every word proceeding from the mouth of Adonai, onto taking part in the Divine nature. Do not sell out to other peoples opinions about what they think G_d no longer does. G_d is not an indian giver, nor a man that lies; but all his promises come from the end to the beginning in Him who is The Way, The Truth, and The Life: Jesus the Christ. It is all yes and amein.

    The question remains, whom will you serve and in what ways?
    With G_d, it has always been onto an all or nothing proposition.


    Charis?

    Finally, there are three things relative of two you remain impetuous about.

    IMAGE1 (pattern) can be comparable to--but not completely accurate in analogy--the mold from which the object FORMed2 (shape) is extracted, and LIKENESS3 (similarity) is the different objects coming out from that initial image.

    Shalom Aleichim one and all,
    S
    Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-22-2013 at 02:51 PM.

  3. #143
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    Hi Timmy,

    I did try to read your post before last, but I was very sleepy, and recall only the last bit. I really had not studied it, but I had the impression you were asking me to explain aspects of the symbolism in the sacrificial system. That's the way I read it. Is that not what you meant?

    Your apology is fully received, and I am not aware of having taken offence.

    I am aware of having begun to wonder how long it would take to research sufficiently to be able to answer your questions, and also, to wonder why you are asking me, and not doing the research yourself? T Austin-Sparks frequently refers to the Tabernacle and the Temple as shadows, to elucidate an aspect of the New Covenant. He has a real gift for explaining things, and I'm sure they are in both his writings and audio expositions.

    From post #131 on p14
    The shed blood was poured over the Mercy Seat of the Ark. The splattering was over the people and what was laid beside the Ark. Remission is toward salvation, but what is the splattering for?? This issue is referred to by both the writer of Hebrews and Peter specifically. The event is recorded around the very first Hag haShavuot, Festival of Weeks (aka Pentecost) when the Law was enacted, and of course in Leviticus. There are also mentions of it elsewhere. If you have time, me too, we might begin a thread about this and learn more. From the way Charis emphasizes this, she will probably have more than a few pages to write about it...
    I was a little surprised about 'more than a few pages to write about it', and also 'the shed blood was poured over the Mercy Seat of the Ark'.

    Where do you find in scripture, that anything other than sprinkling of blood took place over the Ark of the Covenant?

    I have, during the last couple of days, discovered 'entole' and 'logos' which were made of none effect by the traditions of men. I need to study entole (as I may have said) and try to tune in to the difference between it other forms of God's word/commands. (On asking the Lord for a lead in this, I think perhaps Romans 12 is stacked with entole, but I need to understand it better.) You offered Matt 7:7 - 12, and that's very helpful.

    Now, with regard to 'cut and paste', I guess you're referring to scripture of which I have not given much explanation as I understand its relevance when posting. That's a bit like you offering many oblique allusions to how you see things, without offering scripture to elucidate them.

    Gradually, I'm wondering if you think I am thinking things I'm not thinking, (and it's those things you think I should say), so your patience is still required, please. Hopefully, I'll continue to be a disappointment, and eventually you'll figure out what I haven't said very clearly, but you'll understand it anyway.

    So, as it is nearly 2 am here, let me say that while I realise you may think I'm alluding to something I'm not saying, I quote scripture because it is so succinct, and usually cannot mean anything other than it says by the Spirit's interpretation. I do know that the carnal mind can find peculiar doctrines there, and miss the spiritual connections completely, resulting in interpretation/preaching which is as dead as a dodo; but, I am not going to go back tonight and try to regroup in prose what has already been laid out. What I would like to say, instead, is that the ONE COVENANT is the covenant with Abraham, as you have explained with reference to the sacrifice of the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, which Paul also expounds in Galatians. He also mentions aspects of this in Romans, and if Paul wrote Hebrews - or whoever did write Hebrews - it is there too. However, it was necessary that the New Covenant reach right back to God's promise to Eve, as well as right forward to include all who can be saved before Christ's return.

    What only seems (to me and some others) to breed confusion, is what appears to be an endless emphasis on something to do with the Mosaic law. Now I could be wrong very easily, because I have no clear definition of the differences between aspects of the Mosaic law which some seem to make. Also, there was law before the Mosaic law, and Paul says the Mosaic law was 'added because of transgressions'. It seems to me that 'the law' we are/should be talking about, while it may have been re-iterated within aspects of the Mosaic law, was never confined within the Mosaic law. I hope my confusion is coming through loud and clear! To me, it is far easier to understand that Jesus did not break the Mosaic law or any other aspect of God's law, and when the Holy Spirit brings His leadership, teaching and example to the fore in our understanding, that we do know - or are prompted to understand in a new way - how we are supposed to live out His life, so that whatever we say (could be Jesus speaking), write (could be Jesus writing), think (could be Jesus thinking), where we go (could be Jesus going), pray (could be Jesus praying), worship (Psalm 22:22 could be Jesus worshipping) and so on.

    Again I could be wrong in the following, but let me try to explain extremely briefly, how I see the New Covenant in relation to 'the Old Covenant', without taking away any of the power which was in the Old Covenant while it was in force, and please think about it. I'm not going to spell this out. I'm expecting you to be able to put it together. I hope that's okay, and if you don't see anything radically different from what you already know, that's great!

    Here are some verses: Genesis 3:15, Genesis 22:8, 13, 14, 17, Joshua 3:16 ?from = as far as? see other ms, 2 Chronicles 3:1, Matthew 26:28, John 19:34, Acts 13:29 - 41, Romans 4:16, Romans 5:1,2, 5, Ephesians 1:6 -23, Galatians 3:14, Hebrews 9:14 15, Hebrews 11:10, 13 - 16, 2 Peter 3:13.

    I have left out very many verses, and very much which could be said, so I hope the following skeleton is symmetrical enough for you to see the differences I am trying to point up. I am not ignoring truth I have not mentioned, I'm simply not mentioning it. If you don't know why I've chosen any of the verses listed above, I can probably say more of how I read them and why I chose them. Free free to suggest more.

    The New Covenant is like an umbrella which reaches from Eden to the world to come. We know what went before it. We are less clear about the next world. The sprinkling of the book and the people, joined them together with God because they had promised to obey and His word/commandments/law. Sprinkling indicates agreement, peace and inclusion. It was important that the High Priest sprinkled where he was supposed to on the Day of Atonement. Move that thought into the New Covenant: the sacrifice is Christ, circumcision (without hands) is in the heart, and the joining is by one Spirit.

    Before Christ, everything spiritual was physically demonstrated in external pictures - blood of animals covered their sins. God Himself was outside man, and tabernacled alongside man. Now, although the dominant thread inside is still spiritual, instead of tending us towards sin, it tends us towards righteousness. God (came in His own tabernacle (body), shed His blood and) dwells within a tabernacle made without hands (naos) in His body the Church, by His Holy Spirit, so powerfully cleansing souls from sin on the inside, that there is an expectation of an outworking of the resurrection life of God in man - the obedient heart and mind loving God and neighbour and the brethren, (not idols), in unpretended expression of His heart towards mankind. In other words, the internal state of the believer is expressed in outwardly visible ways.



    Finally, I took a little time to how long we have known each other. It is, actually, three years in a few weeks.

    You've been a great blessing. Thank you for the patience. We all need it in one form or another!



    Added at 1530h GMT Saturday, 23rd February, 2013.

    About the 'eths' I've been meaning to comment on your comment:

    2 Corinthians 3 '... If the ministration of death through the letters figured in stones was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance (which glory nevertheless is done away) why shall not the ministration of the spirit be much more glorious? For if the ministering of condemnation be glorious: much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For no doubt that which was there glorified is not once glorified in respect of this exceeding glory. Then if that which is destroyed was glorious, much more shall that which remains, be glorious.

    Seeing then that we have such trust, we use great boldness, and do not as Moses, which put a veil over his face that the children of Israel should not see for what purpose that served which is put away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day remains the same covering untaken away in the old testament when they read it, which in Christ is put away. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil hangs before their hearts. Nevertheless, when they turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. The Lord no doubt is a spirit. And where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all behold the glory of the Lord with His face open, and are changed unto the same similitude (likeness), from glory to glory, even of the spirit of the Lord.


    Taken from 'a modern-spelling edition of Tyndale's 1534 New Testament'. (I've taken out the 'eths')

    Please don't do that, as it usually is indicative of verb tense
    The two 'eths' which I removed, were 'remaineth' and 'hangeth', which I left as 'remains' and 'hangs'. In these two cases, it seems to me that the context is 'For until this day', and 'But even unto this day,' are undoubtedly present continuous, while the veil remains. This 'present continuous' can be brought to an end at the time 'when they turn to the Lord', for then, 'the veil shall be taken away' - future conditional upon turning.

    However, I will think carefully the next time I'd like to remove the 'eths' from a verse, just in case it also removes vital contextual information. Since 'eth' is always the present tense in English, I'm not sure how it could be confused with the present continuous, unless the context was not be-ing correctly interpreted by the reader.



    Corrected for grammar and clarity.
    Last edited by Charisma; 02-23-2013 at 09:18 AM.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Timmy,


    I was a little surprised about 'more than a few pages to write about it', and also 'the shed blood was poured over the Mercy Seat of the Ark'.

    Where do you find in scripture, that anything other than sprinkling of blood took place over the Ark of the Covenant?
    Hi Charisma,

    Long time no write. Hope you don't mind me jumping in here, and of course, I'll be speaking for myself and not Timmy. Maybe the above was a "slip of the tongue" or a "bait and switch trap" I, too, await his explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    What only seems (to me and some others) to breed confusion, is what appears to be an endless emphasis on something to do with the Mosaic law. Now I could be wrong very easily, because I have no clear definition of the differences between aspects of the Mosaic law which some seem to make. Also, there was law before the Mosaic law, and Paul says the Mosaic law was 'added because of transgressions'.
    Maybe you could respond to my post to Rick (#129) since I'm not sure he will. It is obvious to me that Paul makes a distinction between types of law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    It seems to me that 'the law' we are/should be talking about, while it may have been re-iterated within aspects of the Mosaic law, was never confined within the Mosaic law. I hope my confusion is coming through loud and clear! .
    And yet the sabbath was made (time was made holy) before sin entered the world. Do you understand my confusion when Christians say the 4th commanment (dealing with the 4th dimension) was done away with? What makes the 4th any less important/ less binding than the other 9? If God was to eliminate the sabbath, why put it where he did and why reinstate it in the new heavens and new earth (Isaiah 65-66)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    The New Covenant is like an umbrella which reaches from Eden to the world to come. We know what went before it. We are less clear about the next world.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    The sprinkling of the book and the people, joined them together with God because they had promised to obey and His word/commandments/law.
    Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
    Exo 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
    Exo 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
    Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

    The people didn't want to really "know" God. How do you truly trust/obey someone you don't really know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Before Christ, everything spiritual was physically demonstrated in external pictures - blood of animals covered their sins. God Himself was outside man, and tabernacled alongside man. Now, although the dominant thread inside is still spiritual, instead of tending us towards sin, it tends us towards righteousness.
    And what about righteousness?

    1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
    1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins (law breaking); and in him is no sin.
    1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not( is not a law breaker): whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    My two cents ,

    Steve
    May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. Ps 19:14 (NIV)

  5. #145
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    Hi Steve,

    I will try to see what you've written to Rick, but I may not understand it. I think I need to my own study on this, to begin to grasp what you all are talking about. Did you understand what I said about Jesus, and Him being in the believer by the Spirit, (to bring to individual understanding how they should proceed in everything they think, say, do etc) or do you simply not 'buy' that the Spirit brings the laws which governed Christ into the believer to be outworked?

    Do you understand my confusion when Christians say the 4th commanment (dealing with the 4th dimension) was done away with?
    I'm not sure 'time' was made 'holy'. The children of Israel were instructed to cease from their own labours. The extent of 'their own labours' were defined in detail and the penalty for non-compliance was death. God made not resting when instructed, a capital offence.

    When Jesus came, and did things on the Sabbath which the religious leaders deemed 'work' - like eating from a field, or healing someone - and pointing out that the priesthood had a reprieve from the death penalty so that they could carry out other divine instructions, I read that as a clarification which is consistent with the New Covenant He was about to enact.

    As I see it, the Mosaic law was an interim revelation of God's heart in regard to the right conduct of man's relationship with Him and man's relationships with man, and His intention to remove sin completely one day*, so that in that day* the 'work' of pleasing Him would come through the exercise of faith. This is why the writer to the Hebrews links rest and faith, and reminds us that all but two of the unbelieving Israelites became carcasses in the wilderness who could not enter into the 'promised land'. God made sure that they did not receive the promise.

    Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest,

    Is or is not the statement in verse 3, in the present tense?


    [11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.]

    This 'rest' is not about a future rest, according to the writer, although there is a future rest which we understand clearly from other passages.


    Hamlet famously said, 'And the rest is silence', which has been co-opted to good effect by many a music teacher (!) but seriously, if we have been grafted into the death of Christ, have we not entered into His rest? If not, why not? Tyndale uses the word 'grafted' instead of 'planted'. It speaks volumes.

    Isaiah 53:He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
    yet he opened not his mouth:
    he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
    so he openeth not his mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment:
    and who shall declare his generation?
    for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
    for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9 And he made his grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death;
    because he had done no violence,
    neither was any deceit in his mouth
    .

    Are we not supposed to be abiding in the true Vine, without whom we can 'do' nothing, 24/7? Isn't that enough 'sabbath' for anyone?


    What I'm saying is, I believe I observe a whole lot more sabbath than someone observing the fourth commandment. And if you are partaking of the rest into which Messiah entered, why are you adding works to it?

    This is a key in the ten commandments, because like the first, it is about our relationship with God, primarily. Through it is supposed to flow the light of the world, the life of 'the Lord our Righteousness' Jeremiah 23:6b, and the fruit of the Spirit by which it is unconscionable that any of the other ten commandments could be broken, apart from deliberate, avoidable sin. But... 1 John 2:1, 2. This is the effect of being joined by faith to the New Covenant, and relieved of all the works of the Old Covenant. Now we live in a raw reality with God, by His Spirit. If we want to.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  6. #146
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    Hi again, Charisma,

    This has been an interesting sabbath for me. Maybe I need to try a different approach. If a picture =1000 words, video =1000 posts, then this music video is priceless. Please watch before reading the rest of the post, which is probably superfluous at worst and "icing on the cake" at best.



    Something prompted me to click your hymn link in your sig. I'm not sure if I've heard it before. Nice melody. My parents were missionaries (met at Moody Bible Inst) and my dad played organ and piano at a professional level. He played for churches we attended. When we were on furlough in Michigan, my dad would play organ for the Wealthy St Baptist Church (large church and pipe organ). I grew up around music (was my first major in college), especially classical. Anyway, something again prompted me to check out a hymn from the website. "Redeemed" came to my mind and I saw it in classics. 1st choice. I got a chuckle out of the page number 301 in light of my post #31 herehttp://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...-fiction/page4 I was thinking of the other melody that the lyrics are sung to, so I went to youtube. I picked the first video I saw because it was 3:37 long. 337 is the English gematria for blue. Blue is the color of heaven and figures prominently in the law. Of all the videos I then skimmed through, I like this one best. I used our 4 hymnals we currently have (Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, SDA) to check the lyrics. L and P don't have either song. B and SDA have both versions. SDA hymnal, Redeemed on pp 337 and 338. B hymnal, Redeemed on pp 444 and 446. Your last post was 52444. 444 is the English gematria of Levi (priests) and of course, half of 888, well known gematria of Jesus.

    The view count on the video was on 2557 while I was watching it. It changed because I got offline and then went back to it. There is only one word that = 2557, "crucified". Before I forget and leave these "coincidences", the "Redeemed" song on the website you linked, gives a Hymn Code: 55555671512222123. I normally wouldn't pay attention to that, but all those 5's caught my attention. There are 17 numbers with 151 being in the exact center. 151 is the ordinal English gematria of "Jesus Christ" and "Holy Spirit". 151 is also the exact middle of 301. 301 is a menorah of 43's. You might want to check out 301 and 43 in RAM's database.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    ...
    I'm not sure 'time' was made 'holy'.
    A day is a unit of time. God made a specific day holy. Easy as 1(book),2(chapter),3(verse). Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it(made it holy NIV): because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma
    When Jesus came, and did things on the Sabbath which the religious leaders deemed 'work' - like eating from a field, or healing someone - and pointing out that the priesthood had a reprieve from the death penalty so that they could carry out other divine instructions, I read that as a clarification which is consistent with the New Covenant He was about to enact.
    Jesus was simply "cleaning up" the sabbath and revealing its true purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma
    As I see it, the Mosaic law was an interim revelation of God's heart in regard to the right conduct of man's relationship with Him and man's relationships with man, and His intention to remove sin completely one day*, so that in that day* the 'work' of pleasing Him would come through the exercise of faith. This is why the writer to the Hebrews links rest and faith, and reminds us that all but two of the unbelieving Israelites became carcasses in the wilderness who could not enter into the 'promised land'. God made sure that they did not receive the promise.
    Sabbath was before Moses and will be here in the new earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma
    Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest,

    Is or is not the statement in verse 3, in the present tense?

    [11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.]

    This 'rest' is not about a future rest, according to the writer, although there is a future rest which we understand clearly from other passages.

    I'm not sure what is your point. The people didn't enter "rest" because they didn't trust and obey. Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? (NIV and others translate disobeyed). The sabbath is a picture of us resting in God's provision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma
    Are we not supposed to be abiding in the true Vine, without whom we can 'do' nothing, 24/7? Isn't that enough 'sabbath' for anyone?

    What I'm saying is, I believe I observe a whole lot more sabbath than someone observing the fourth commandment. And if you are partaking of the rest into which Messiah entered, why are you adding works to it?
    How is resting on the sabbath working? So let me get this straight. If I go out and work on the sabbath, I'm trusting God's provision, but if I rest on the sabbath, I'm working to add to God's provision. Can I use this "logic" with the other 9? If I tell the truth, am I "working" to get God's approval? Or is it maybe I want to tell the truth because God loved me enough to save me from a life of lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma
    This is a key in the ten commandments, because like the first, it is about our relationship with God, primarily. Through it is supposed to flow the light of the world, the life of 'the Lord our Righteousness' Jeremiah 23:6b, and the fruit of the Spirit by which it is unconscionable that any of the other ten commandments could be broken, apart from deliberate, avoidable sin. But... 1 John 2:1, 2. This is the effect of being joined by faith to the New Covenant, and relieved of all the works of the Old Covenant. Now we live in a raw reality with God, by His Spirit. If we want to.
    Are you sure you're understanding Hebrews correctly?

    Hbr 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
    Hbr 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
    Hbr 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

    But what is this new covenant? Is it getting rid of or ignoring laws? Yes and no.

    Hbr 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people .

    Nope. Law magnified by being in our hearts and minds.

    Hbr 10:17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
    Hbr 10:18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
    Hbr 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning(law breaking) after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice (old covenant provisions) for sins is left,

    Yup. The sacrificial laws were done away with.

    And now for the cherry on top of this sundae (There could be a pun in here somewhere.) The page number of your hymn link is 177. The last word that = 177 is kill or "take away" in Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    Time for me to quit rambling. If my words confuse you, then just go with the video. That expresses my heart and I'm sure yours, too.

    YBIC,
    Steve

    edit to add "ordinal" in 151 is the "ordinal" English gematria .....
    Last edited by Ps 27:1; 02-23-2013 at 06:57 PM.
    May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. Ps 19:14 (NIV)

  7. #147
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    227
    Redemption Continued,

    For a taste of heaven, put on some good headphones, crank up the volume, and wait for the shivers and goose bumps to tickle your skin. And for an encore, listen to the next on the list, Beethoven's Hallelujah (you may have to open it in youtube). I remember that from my dad's collection. The MTC sure can sing.



    So what does the above song have to do with torah? I'll explain in a moment, but first look at the length. 6:13 If you (anyone reading) don't already know, http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_613.php

    So sabbath I was researching Fanny Crosby and the Redeemed hymn. I already knew she was blind and wrote a lot of hymns. I did not know it was over 9000 and that she had a lot of the bible memorized! Anyway, very fascinating woman. The original Redeemed hymn written in 1882 had 5 verses. I found this website that has page scans of old hymnals. http://www.hymnary.org/text/redeemed...to_proclaim_it The reason I checked is that the newer hymnals leave out verses and even Charisma's linked website changes the word "law" in verse 4 to "way". Now why would they do that?

    This is what verse 4 (hmmm, 4th commandment, 4th dimension)should look like:

    4 I know I shall see in His beauty
    The King in whose law I delight;
    Who lovingly guardeth my footsteps
    And giveth me songs in the night.[Chorus]

    In the youtube video in my previous post, the singer puts this verse 2nd which synchronizes "I know" at 1:19. Psalm 119 is thee psalm about love for God's law. Psa 119:77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight. Psa 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

    I remember as a child singing Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. as a song in Baptist churches.

    The writer of Psalm119 seems to be self righteous, but he asks for "understanding", "unfailing love", "salvation", "not letting him stray",etc., and then at the very end he says:

    Psa 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

    The psalmist knows he isn't going to be "saved" because of his good works, because he admits to "straying" like sheep. What he does have is a hunger for God's righteousness (Christ is the law in flesh, if you will). This agrees with Matt 5: 3-12.

    And now you know what "Come Thou Fount" has to do with torah. We all prone to wander like sheep, but do we ask God to take our heart and seal it?

    Blessings,
    Steve
    May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. Ps 19:14 (NIV)

  8. #148
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Tellus
    Posts
    741
    ​The clincher concerning Torah itself and it's validity FOR ALL who claim they follow Jesus is possessing His own attitude, actions, and teachings as if they are our own, because this is what every truly faithful and obedient disciple of His does.

    Ask yourself what the reason is for Him to offer up to G_d His life blood for the world in the first place. Then consider everything this entails. Did the death and resurrection of Jesus make obeying G_d's instructions--Ha'Torah--completely invalid or did it confirm their efficacy?

    Though it is not hard to understand how folks can and do confuse Paul's message...to take the book of Hebrews, where these issues are spelled out in detail, makes one wonder how missed the complete gospel message is.






    There has been a passage brought up Steve has been addressing to which is offered two cents from this quarter.

    From Hebrews 3.7 to 4.11, the writer(s) argue that only G_d's people enter His rest. This passage reveals it is because of not believing, proven through disobedience, that people do not and cannot enter into His rest. In chapter 4, verses 9 through 11, the conclusion of this argument identifies exactly what type of rest is being discussed, and warns for the last time that this is to be lived out to avoid falling by disobedience.

    Many English rendering from the Greek in verse 9, only say something like, "So there abides/remains a REST for God's people." In Greek, that word ”REST” located right there is "sabbatismo" meaning to ”observe G_d's Shabbat.” What verse 9 is actually telling us is Sabbath rest continues to exist for those who are people of G_d.






    Finally, often many are heard drawing distinctions between the ten commandments,
    --but there are really eleven commandments, beginning with the first word of the Shema: "HEAR!!!!!"--
    the civil rules, the health laws, the temple ordinances, and so on.


    Hebrews is discussing the metathesis<--transforming of the premise--of Beriyth, and not the complete abolishment of temple ordinances. Anti-type is manifested reality in Jesus Christ, and its shadow on earth--the type--will eventually be represented on Earth from out of Himself, as in G_d there is no darkness at all, nor shifting turning shadow.



    This drawing of differences between Mosaic Law and the 11 commandments needs to altogether quit completely.

    Where does the Bible say the 11 commandments are not Mosaic Law?

    Are we missing the point of Torah,
    by yet another tradition of man leading to unbelief?
    Through disobedience the Word of God is made ineffective
    in our own lives making up lies
    toward self-justifications to compensate
    for doubting G_d and ourselves.





    Sonoriously,

    Barefeeteded Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-26-2013 at 10:43 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  9. #149
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Daytona
    Posts
    1,855

    ACROSTIC 22

    Putting two and two together is what we all like to do,
    To some the answer's four, and to others twenty-two.
    The acrostic number 22 is somewhat like a veil,
    When letters of the alphabet are used to tell the tale.
    Hidden things in Scripture compare to finding Gold!
    Searching out the ton of ways that Heaven's Truth is told...

    My own favorite:
    "Great peace have they which love thy law, and nothing shall offend them". Ps119:165 KJV

    So many good verses in the octostrophic psalm -- 22x8,
    Compare to Lamentations chapter 3 -- 22x3
    Also, Jacob (means supplanter) is the 22nd generation from Adam.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

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