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  1. #11
    TheForgiven wrote,

    Henry and Cheow still have not answered the question.

    So I'm going to ask them once again.

    Now, please answer the question. If you answered it, and I missed it, then I apologize. But I read both posts and I did not see an answer; only a question.
    Joe read post #7 again, here's a part of it:

    concerning Mt. 26:64, Caiaphas and the priests 'seeing' Jesus, here's my view on how I have come to read this passage.

    Jesus told the priests 'hereafter you will see---.' The word for 'will see' in Mt. 26:64 is the Greek word 'optanomai.'

    3700 optánomai (or optomai/optanō, likely a later cognate of 3708 /horáō) – become seen (appear). See 3708
    (horaō).

    According to Strongs, the word used in Mt. 28:64 is seen as having the meaning of both senses. They (Caiaphas and priests) would not only 'perceive hereafter' (in time) but will also 'see' Christ 'hereafter.' By the use of His word Christ seems to be telling them, from that point on (present) and onward (future) this very Truth would come to pass, either in this life (time) or the next (throne judgment).

    In other words, if they wouldn't spiritually "perceive in the mind" what Christ told them before they died, they would "see" Christ in his glory on his throne at the judgment.

    This fulfillment would also apply (in the same way) to 'those who pierced him.'

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    The manner in which he left and would come is given in Acts 1:9-11. What you are doing in your post is using the definition of the word “optanomai” seen in Mt. 26:64 and “horaó” the other definition given and placing their meaning onto the Acts passage. To do so is incorrect, the reason is given below.



    What you may not understand is that Acts 1:11 does not use the word that was used in Mt. 26:64. Here below is the passage and the word and its definition used there.

    Acts 1:11, “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen* ( theaomai) him go into heaven.”

    2300. theaomai
    theaomai: to behold, look upon
    Original Word: θεάομαι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: theaomai
    Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ah'-om-ahee)
    Short Definition: I see, behold, contemplate, visit
    Definition: I see, behold, contemplate, look upon, view; I see, visit.

    theáomai (from tháomai, "to gaze at a spectacle") – properly, gaze on (contemplate) as a spectator; to observe intently, especially to interpret something (grasp its significance); to see (concentrate on) so as to significantly impact (influence) the viewer.

    The angels words make it clear, as they literally saw him, beheld him rising (not “perceiving in the mind”) is the very manner in which he will come back. “--as you have “theaomai” (seen) him go into heaven.”

    God bless---Twospirits
    Again, the manner is that he was taken up into "clouds of heaven."
    Not clouds of earth. It is speaking about unmanifesting before their eyes.
    He will also come in clouds of heaven.
    To each of us that see him the manner will be the same.

    And just as the people stoning Stephen saw nothing at all, so with us there will be those who see nothing at all.

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob May; 10-01-2011 at 04:42 PM.

  3. #13
    I think there is some clarification from the surrounding context that could be missed. A few verses earlier Jesus was telling them that it was not for them to Know [experientially] the times and the seasons; but that they WOULD receive power [during the season of Pentecost] The "times and the seasons' were words which I believe referred to the dates and festivals of the jewish calander which was established during the 40 yrs of the wanderings of the people of the mosaic covenant. Since the new covenant was confirmed through the overlaying, and fulfillment of those times and seasons, the so called 'return' of Christ in the 'clouds of heaven' would also fall within the context of the fulfillment of the times and seasons and within the 40 yrs.[I believe]. None of the apostles [except John] remained alive through the fulfillment of all the times and seasons established by the mosaic covenant. Jesus had answered Peter.... what if I want him to remain until I come; what is that to you..???

    There is also the aspect to consider as to what the 'clouds of heaven' would infer to the jewish mind who's nation was formed by being led by a cloud. The word for 'cloud' refers to singular low lying cloud; not to the higher lighter clouds of the atmosphere. Thus it could very well signify that this same mild mannered teacher of inner peace would indeed come in open revelation and in protection as the very God who had established the conditional mosaic covenant nation in the first place, but with a different mission.... to confirm the ending of it.. and it's temporal principles and remove the oppression from the people of the everlasting covenant.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 10-01-2011 at 04:56 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Joe read post #7 again, here's a part of it:

    concerning Mt. 26:64, Caiaphas and the priests “seeing” Jesus, here's my view on how I have come to read this passage.

    Jesus told the priests “hereafter you will see---.” The word for “will see” in Mt. 26:64 is the Greek word “optanomai.”

    3700 optánomai (or optomai/optanō, likely a later cognate of 3708 /horáō) – become seen (appear). See 3708
    (horaō).

    According to Strongs, the word used in Mt. 28:64 is seen as having the meaning of both senses. They (Caiaphas and priests) would not only “perceive hereafter” (in time) but will also “see” Christ “hereafter.” By the use of His word Christ seems to be telling them, from that point on (present) and onward (future) this very Truth would come to pass, either in this life (time) or the next (throne judgment).

    In other words, if they wouldn't spiritually "perceive in the mind" what Christ told them before they died, they would "see" Christ in his glory on his throne at the judgment.

    This fulfillment would also apply (in the same way) to “those who pierced him.”

    God bless---Twospirits
    This doesn't answer the entire question. That's why I posed it again. I can understand them seeing Christ sitting on His throne "Hereafter". But that depends on how you interpret "hereafter". He may have simply meant that after that moment, in a time later determined, they would see Him sitting upon His throne and coming in the clouds of heaven. Now if you try interpreting "hereafter" as the afterlife, you may be right. But this doesn't answer the second part of the question. Jesus also said, "You shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven".

    Now since you and Cheow both apply this passage to Acts chapter 1 (at least I'm assuming you do), and because you both claim that Jesus coming in the clouds must be literal, then how can Caiaphas see Jesus coming in the clouds if he's been dead now for more than 2,000 years? Remember, it's the righteous who are raised first, each in their own order. And according to Revelation, the rest of the dead lived not again until the Millennium was completed, and the post Millennial war was accomplished. Then comes the famous Great White Throne Judgment when the rest of the dead (sea and earth) are raised and judged according to what was recorded in the books. Anyone not found in the Book of life was tossed into the Lake of Fire. Thus, they would have completely missed Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven.....as you can see, the Futurist position with respect to the first century Jews seeing Christ coming in the clouds of heaven is impossible, and does not fit your interpretation.

    Now I know that you also view Jesus coming in the clouds in judgment, which you may, or may not, attribute to His judgment upon them (Jews) in 70AD. I don't recall if that's your position or not.

    At any rate, how can Caiaphas see Jesus, hereafter, coming in the clouds of heaven as per Acts 1, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24? Him sitting on the throne and coming in the clouds of heaven is all one event; it's not two separate events divided by massive amounts of time.

    So I'll be waiting.

    Joe

    My answer. From a Biblical standpoint, the Jews apparently understood what He meant, as this was a typical Jewish understanding. God coming in the clouds simply refers to His arm raining wrath using nations to carry out His will. And Jesus ascended "hereafter" from his crucifixion, after He was resurrected, and was crowned with glory and honor, and sat at the power of God (Throne). These were all fulfilled in the first century. Now when did Caiaphas and the rest see this happen? The truth be known, they saw all of this in 70AD, just as they saw God's judgment as the clouds with the invasion of the Babylonian Empire, per Jeremiah chapter 4; Daniel also testify to this truth.
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 10-01-2011 at 06:31 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    I think there is some clarification from the surrounding context that could be missed. A few verses earlier Jesus was telling them that it was not for them to Know [experientially] the times and the seasons; but that they WOULD receive power [during the season of Pentecost] The "times and the seasons' were words which I believe referred to the dates and festivals of the jewish calander which was established during the 40 yrs of the wanderings of the people of the mosaic covenant. Since the new covenant was confirmed through the overlaying, and fulfillment of those times and seasons, the so called 'return' of Christ in the 'clouds of heaven' would also fall within the context of the fulfillment of the times and seasons and within the 40 yrs.[I believe]. None of the apostles [except John] remained alive through the fulfillment of all the times and seasons established by the mosaic covenant. Jesus had answered Peter.... what if I want him to remain until I come; what is that to you..???

    There is also the aspect to consider as to what the 'clouds of heaven' would infer to the jewish mind who's nation was formed by being led by a cloud. The word for 'cloud' refers to singular low lying cloud; not to the higher lighter clouds of the atmosphere. Thus it could very well signify that this same mild mannered teacher of inner peace would indeed come in open revelation and in protection as the very God who had established the conditional mosaic covenant nation in the first place, but with a different mission.... to confirm the ending of it.. and it's temporal principles and remove the oppression from the people of the everlasting covenant.
    You are 100% percent correct my friend. I was going to use the Feasts of Israel to prove my point, but I wasn't ready to post that yet. I too believe that all the events that took place with Moses, to the day they were led into the promised land, was a picture of what was to happen when the true Prophet of God came; Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the Passover, Pentecost, the 40 years of their wandering (cross to destruction of the Harlot and entrance into Heaven after the temple was destroyed). Then came the kingdom as was promised. Deut 32 is a testament to this truth.

    Great post.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #16
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    Well I've asked the question as to how Caiaphas would see Jesus coming in the clouds, and Futurists are having an impossible time answering it. Don't worry guys. I don't mean anything against you, but you are not alone. There are plenty of Futurists trying to wrestle with this question. And here's one who thinks he's found the answer. A SPECIAL RESURRECTION PRIOR TO HIS RETURN:

    http://ims.truepath.com/biblestudy/s...urrection.html

    Unfortunately, he's dead wrong, as there's no such thing as a "special resurrection". This is a theory the author of this article made up in order to substantiate his position as a Futurist. But you see. That's my point all along. Contradictions have to be solved by making up theories. But without biblical support, any theory must remain outside of the Church.

    Trust me; Caiaphas and his generation did see Jesus sitting in the power of God, and coming upon them in judgment as the clouds of destruction and wrath. This is nothing new; they've seen this a few times before 70AD. God coming upon them in a cloud of destruction is nothing new. This just goes to show you that H20 is not the cloud God rides.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  7. #17
    TheForgiven wrote,

    This doesn't answer the entire question. That's why I posed it again. I can understand them seeing Christ sitting on His throne "Hereafter". But that depends on how you interpret "hereafter". He may have simply meant that after that moment, in a time later determined, they would see Him sitting upon His throne and coming in the clouds of heaven. Now if you try interpreting "hereafter" as the afterlife, you may be right. But this doesn't answer the second part of the question. Jesus also said, "You shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven".
    There is no 'determined time' given, Jesus simply said 'hereafter.' So scripturally it can mean in this life or the next. The texts show that Caiaphas and the priests understood the meaning, the 'metaphor' of what Jesus was saying, by crying 'blasphemy.' And that is how it is to be applied in this passage as I stated in my post. The 'context' determines when we are to take scripture metaphorically or not. Mt. 26:64 is to be taken in the spiritual or metaphoric way, the Acts passage is a different matter.

    Now since you and Cheow both apply this passage to Acts chapter 1 (at least I'm assuming you do), and because you both claim that Jesus coming in the clouds must be literal, then how can Caiaphas see Jesus coming in the clouds if he's been dead now for more than 2,000 years?
    No, as I said above Mt. 26:64 is different in its application than Acts 1:9-11. The Matthew passage is more metaphorical in context, and given specifically to Caiaphas and the priests, which I believe they 'perceived' in time, therefore fulfilled in that sense (to spiritually perceive with the mind). The Acts passage was prophetic for a different time and has a literal fulfillment as I've shown in other posts.

    Now I know that you also view Jesus coming in the clouds in judgment, which you may, or may not, attribute to His judgment upon them (Jews) in 70AD. I don't recall if that's your position or not.
    I hold that that the judgment prophecy of the fall of the temple was fulfilled in 70 A.D., but the coming of Christ did not occur. (See thread The "ye" principle, this generation, & Mt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.).

    At any rate, how can Caiaphas see Jesus, hereafter, coming in the clouds of heaven as per Acts 1, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24? Him sitting on the throne and coming in the clouds of heaven is all one event; it's not two separate events divided by massive amounts of time.
    See above, I hold that the context of Mt. 26:64 is fulfilled in a different way than Acts 1, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    There is no “determined time” given, Jesus simply said “hereafter.” So scripturally it can mean in this life or the next. The texts show that Caiaphas and the priests understood the meaning, the “metaphor” of what Jesus was saying, by crying “blasphemy.” And that is how it is to be applied in this passage as I stated in my post. The “context” determines when we are to take scripture metaphorically or not. Mt. 26:64 is to be taken in the spiritual or metaphoric way, the Acts passage is a different matter.



    No, as I said above Mt. 26:64 is different in its application than Acts 1:9-11. The Matthew passage is more metaphorical in context, and given specifically to Caiaphas and the priests, which I believe they “perceived” in time, therefore fulfilled in that sense (to spiritually perceive with the mind). The Acts passage was prophetic for a different time and has a literal fulfillment as I've shown in other posts.



    I hold that that the judgment prophecy of the fall of the temple was fulfilled in 70 A.D., but the coming of Christ did not occur. (See thread The "ye" principle, this generation, & Mt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.).



    See above, I hold that the context of Mt. 26:64 is fulfilled in a different way than Acts 1, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

    God bless---Twospirits
    OK, so you interpret Caiaphas and the rest as seeing Jesus coming in the clouds as metaphoric. You're almost there. Now if we can just get an answer from you my friend.

    WHEN did (if at all) Caiaphas and the rest see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven? They are already dead, so it's not possible for them to see it. I hate to say this, but you're avoiding the question. You're not giving full answers. It is not enough to express your position on this being metaphoric, nor is it enough to say it could mean hereafter (their time), or the afterlife. You must be specific. I believe that they saw Jesus coming in the clouds in the same way Jeremiah explains Prophetically in chapter 4. In this case, Caiaphas and the rest saw Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven in 70AD; the clouds of destruction by the Romans who were sent by God.

    Never mind about acts chapter 1. At least we now know you hold Acts 1 and Matthew 26 as two separate accounts; we'll get to the conflict of that theory later. For now, let's remain on subject to prevent any further diversions.

    When did they see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven?

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 10-02-2011 at 04:40 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  9. #19
    TheForgiven wrote,

    OK, so you interpret Caiaphas and the rest as seeing Jesus coming in the clouds as metaphoric. You're almost there. Now if we can just get an answer from you my friend.

    WHEN did (if at all) Caiaphas and the rest see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven? They are already dead, so it's not possible for them to see it. I hate to say this, but you're avoiding the question. You're not giving full answers. It is not enough to express your position on this being metaphoric, nor is it enough to say it could mean hereafter (their time), or the afterlife. You must be specific. I believe that they saw Jesus coming in the clouds in the same way Jeremiah explains Prophetically in chapter 4. In this case, Caiaphas and the rest saw Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven in 70AD; the clouds of destruction by the Romans who were sent by God.

    Never mind about acts chapter 1. At least we now know you hold Acts 1 and Matthew 26 as two separate accounts; we'll get to the conflict of that theory later. For now, let's remain on subject to prevent any further diversions.

    When did they see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven?
    I don't understand why you expect me to accept your answer that Caiaphas and the others (if they lived till 70 A.D.) saw (metaphorically, spiritually) Jesus “coming in the clouds of heaven in 70 A.D. by the signs;” yet you reject my answer of how they “saw” (perceived) Jesus “hereafter” also through the same means, “miraculous signs.”

    Okay, your answer is they “saw” metaphorically his coming through signs of Jerusalem's fall.

    My answer is like I said, Caiaphas and the others “perceived,” understood what Jesus said, though their hearts were hardened, by the same means, by miraculous signs done by and through the apostles. This is how “they” would “see” Jesus coming “hereafter” on the clouds of heaven. They would not “literally see” Jesus coming on clouds., and I gave the reason for that.

    Like I said in my post, the “context” is what determines when we are to take scripture metaphorically or when we are not to. Mt. 26:64 is to be taken in the spiritual or metaphoric way, the Acts passage is a different matter altogether.

    Mt. 26:64 is different in its application than Acts 1:9-11. The Matthew passage is metaphorical in context, and given specifically to Caiaphas and the priests, and was fulfilled in that sense, spiritually in their lifetime. The wording of the passage confirms that. “When” is impossible to answer, in any case it would only be speculation. (Who were "they" besides Caiaphas that were there at the trial? How long did they live? Were "they" there in 70 A.D. etc.?).The Acts passage was prophetic for a different time and has a literal fulfillment as I've shown in my posts.

    The words given in Mt. 26:64, “shall see” is “optanomai,” a cognate of “horao” which has the meaning of “to look upon” or “to perceive” spiritually. In Acts, “as you- “have seen” is “theaomai” which means “to behold,” to “look upon.” These words and its context is what confirms the meaning of Mt. 26:64 and Acts 1:9-11. Now I hope I've made my answer clear as to your question.

    God bless---Twospirits
    Last edited by Twospirits; 10-03-2011 at 08:13 AM.
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  10. #20
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    Howdy,

    Clouds?

    They were Glory Clouds.
    Multitudes of witnesses filled with the Shekinah Glory of the Father and Son.

    Gil

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