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  1. #1
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    JESUS COMING IN THE CLOUDS of HEAVEN

    Matthew 26:

    62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, 'Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?' 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, 'I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!' 64 Jesus said to him, 'It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.' 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, 'He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!


    We all know the famous Futurist teaching that Jesus is expected to return from Heaven, and EVERYONE will see Him riding the clouds of heaven. Futurists appeal to acts chapter 1 which reads:

    Acts 1:

    9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'


    Futurist's insist that His return must be EXACTLY as He departed. Now some Futurists on this forum will say, "well, not exactly, but it will be visible". The primary reason for this adjustment is that His ascension was very slow and visible until He vanished behind a cloud. But rumor throughout Church history, primarily from the Protestant sect, teach that His return must be like lightning; in the twinkling of the eye. So some Futurists, knowing the contradiction to this belief in contrast to Acts chapter 1, change their perception of His return from a slow visible return, to a faster than light return. In times past, I've referred to this as the "Bruce Lee" attribute of Jesus coming in judgment; like lightning.

    I've also pointed out how the phrase "like manner" does not mean exact manner. However, this isn't what I'd like to focus on.

    Reading Matthew 26, we should note two very important things here.

    1. Caiaphas was not shocked about Jesus returning in a cloud of power, yet he had no idea of Jesus ever leaving. His only shock was that Jesus equated Himself to the "power" of God. To do so is Blasphemy and warrants the death penalty.

    2. How can the Jews (specifically Caiaphas) see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven if they are dead if we hold to the Futurist position? Sinners would not be resurrected until after everyone else is first resurrected. Revelation states that only those in Christ are resurrected with Him to rule with Christ for the Millennium; the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the Millennium. This would, theologically, include Caiaphas and the other false Jews, along with other sinners. But the return of Jesus would have long passed, which means they would be unable to see Jesus riding clouds of H20; unless of course Futurists want to create two separate comings; Pre-Millennium and Post-Millennium.

    Jeremiah chapter 4 (as well as a few other OT passages) describes the wrath of God as a cloud of dust. Jeremiah's vision was about the Babylonian invasion, as a lion who devours Jerusalem. Jeremiah visualizes this invasion as God coming as the clouds. John, in Revelation, emphasizes the same type of coming, in the form of clouds. John even states an astonishing promise, that those who pierced Him would see His coming in a cloud of power.

    It's quite clear that the Futurist understanding of "Cloud Coming" doesn't not fit well with scripture. Their are three contradictions to overcome in order to make their theory work.

    1. Speed of His ascension (Acts 1) doesn't match the anticipated faster-than-light return.
    2. The timing of the resurrection of all sinners happens after the return of Jesus, so how could they see Him coming in the clouds?
    3. The Jews were not confused or stunned by His type of return, and more than likely understood this as a figure of speech denoting their pending destruction.

    Remember, Jesus warned them that He was going to destroy the temple and raise it in three days, and this would only be done with Him declaring Himself equal to God, and casting judgment upon them. This is why they charged Him with Blasphemy.

    In conclusion, Caiaphas, and all those who pierced Him did see Jesus sitting at the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven, just as they saw God fulfill Jeremiah's vision of God riding as the clouds with the Babylonian invasion. Jesus kept His promise to them, and came in with clouds of dust and ashes in 66-70AD, when God sent the Romans to destroy His enemies; even those who pierced Him. The Futurist understanding of Jesus coming with the clouds is a simple misunderstanding with too many contradictions to resolve. Lastly, their understanding does not fit the Old Testament examples of how God comes with the nations upon His enemies, and not literally being seen flying the friendly skies.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 09-29-2011 at 07:44 AM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  2. #2
    TheForgiven wrote,

    Futurist's insist that His return must be EXACTLY as He departed. Now some Futurists on this forum will say, "well, not exactly, but it will be visible".
    Joe for the sake of argument (so not to argue ad infinitum) let's take the passage of Acts 1:9-11, and substitute the word “heaven” with “cloud.” Now I hope you at least agree that the disciples literally saw Jesus ascend from the ground up into the sky until a cloud hid him from their sight, as the passage reads. Now with that said:

    Acts 1:9-11, “And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. (10) And while they looked stedfastly toward (the) cloud* as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into (the) cloud*? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into (the) cloud,* shall so come in this (or that)*(hon) manner* (tropon) as ye have seen him go into the cloud.*”

    Catch that? The angels said in verse 11, “this same Jesus” you “literally saw” bodily “rise up” and “enter” cloud/heaven will come in that manner*-the manner in which “you have “seen” him rise and “enter,” the cloud/heaven.” Now since Christ is to “descend” from cloud/heaven in his return, the words of the angel would mean- as he was “seen entering” the cloud/heaven, Jesus shall be “seen exiting” the cloud/heaven in the full sight of men.

    Now a question to ponder on: If Christ was NOT to be visibly seen at his coming what “logic” would it make for God to specifically send two angels (representing witnesses in God's eyes) to personally make that declaration promise? And repeated through the Holy Spirit's Inspiration in the epistles by the apostles when he would come for his saints? 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; Heb. 9:28.

    We also see Rev. 1:7 agreeing with the passages of Acts 1:9-11 and the epistles:

    “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they (also) which pierced him: and all kindreds (families/tribes) of the earth shall wail (mourn) because of him. Even so, Amen.”

    Rev. 1:8, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending (1 Cor. 15:24), saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

    God bless---Twospirits
    Last edited by Twospirits; 09-29-2011 at 02:53 PM.
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Joe for the sake of argument (so not to argue ad infinitum) let's take the passage of Acts 1:9-11, and substitute the word “heaven” with “cloud.” Now I hope you at least agree that the disciples literally saw Jesus ascend from the ground up into the sky until a cloud hid him from their sight, as the passage reads. Now with that said:

    Acts 1:9-11, “And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. (10) And while they looked stedfastly toward (the) cloud* as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into (the) cloud*? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into (the) cloud,* shall so come in this (or that)*(hon) manner* (tropon) as ye have seen him go into the cloud.*”

    Catch that? The angels said in verse 11, “this same Jesus” you “literally saw” bodily “rise up” and “enter” cloud/heaven will come in that manner*-the manner in which “you have “seen” him rise and “enter,” the cloud/heaven.” Now since Christ is to “descend” from cloud/heaven in his return, the words of the angel would mean- as he was “seen entering” the cloud/heaven, Jesus shall be “seen exiting” the cloud/heaven in the full sight of men.

    Now a question to ponder on: If Christ was NOT to be visibly seen at his coming what “logic” would it make for God to specifically send two angels (representing witnesses in God's eyes) to personally make that declaration promise? And repeated through the Holy Spirit's Inspiration in the epistles by the apostles when he would come for his saints? 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; Heb. 9:28.

    We also see Rev. 1:7 agreeing with the passages of Acts 1:9-11 and the epistles:

    “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they (also) which pierced him: and all kindreds (families/tribes) of the earth shall wail (mourn) because of him. Even so, Amen.”

    Rev. 1:8, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending (1 Cor. 15:24), saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

    God bless---Twospirits
    Good chatting with you Henry. Unfortunately, you altered the text to make it read as though the Angel was telling them that Jesus would return the same way He departed. But that wasn't what the Angel said. First, here's what you wrote:

    Catch that? The angels said in verse 11, “this same Jesus” you “literally saw” bodily “rise up” and “enter” cloud/heaven will come in that manner*-the manner in which “you have “seen” him rise and “enter,” the cloud/heaven.”
    You added the words "rise up bodily" and "that manner". First, the Angel never said, "rise up bodily", although I know that's what he's implying. But it's not as though His ascension from the ground to the sky were in focus. Secondly, you used the word "that" which would indicate a precise duplicate of His entrance into heaven.

    Now here's what the text actually says:

    This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

    As you can see, he was lifted up, and THEN vanished into heaven being hidden by a cloud. But His coming would be in "likeness" or "like manner" of His entrance into heaven. We've covered this before. "Like" and "Exact" are two different things. Here's a verbal illustration to assist you.

    Joe ran to the grocery store like a leopard chasing after its prey; they were both very hungry.

    Now did Joe run to the store in exact manner as the leopard chases its prey? No; both were doing something similar, but not in exact fashion. I ran "like" the leopard, but not exactly like the leopard.

    Here's another one for you.

    Jason was at a bar and was approached by two men attempting to rob him. The two men beat his face, held him down and stole his wallet. Jason told Joe about it, and warned him of the two men at the bar. That night, Joe went to the bar and confronted the two men. Joe asked, "Are you going to rob me as/like you did my friend?

    Was Joe asking if the two men were going to rob him in the same manner or fashion as his friend? Or was he asking the two men if they were going to be robbed like his friend was robbed?

    I think you get my point.

    So Jesus vanishing behind the clouds into heaven would be like His return. It's not the exact fashion of His return that was the point; it was His vanishing behind the cloud that was the point. This is attested by Jeremiah 4, Revelation 1, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13. They all speak of Christ coming in the clouds, like His entrance into heaven by a cloud. That's the main point. So the Angel wasn't giving them clues or information of what to look for.

    Lastly, I honestly believe that the Angel was simply offering them some consolation. Contextually, they stared into heaven because they knew they were going to miss Him deeply. So the Angel exhorts them not to keep staring at the heavens as though they would never see Him again. For just as assuredly as He left them, He would come again. That's the main point of the message not to be taken as a road map to futurist prophesy. Sometimes our imagination can run a bit too deep and cause us to over-interpret the text, as is the case with the up/down scenario of Jesus's ascension. He left, and therefore He will return.

    Remember, "Like" and "Like that" are two different words/phrases. And you already know the Greek word used in this case, which is more or less a similitude; not an exactitude.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #4
    TheForgiven wrote,

    Good chatting with you Henry. Unfortunately, you altered the text to make it read as though the Angel was telling them that Jesus would return the same way He departed. But that wasn't what the Angel said. First, here's what you wrote:

    Quote:
    Twospirits wrote,
    Catch that? The angels said in verse 11, 'this same Jesus' you 'literally saw' bodily 'rise up' and 'enter' cloud/heaven will come in that manner*-the manner in which 'you have 'seen' him rise and 'enter,' the cloud/heaven.'

    TheForgiven replied,
    You added the words "rise up bodily" and "that manner". First, the Angel never said, "rise up bodily", although I know that's what he's implying. But it's not as though His ascension from the ground to the sky were in focus. Secondly, you used the word "that" which would indicate a precise duplicate of His entrance into heaven.

    Now here's what the text actually says:

    This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'

    As you can see, he was lifted up, and THEN vanished into heaven being hidden by a cloud. But His coming would be in "likeness" or "like manner" of His entrance into heaven. We've covered this before. "Like" and "Exact" are two different things.
    I added the words 'rise up bodily' because the context infers it and I concluded there would be no disagreement here. Why I said, 'I hope you at least agree that the disciples literally saw Jesus ascend from the ground up--.' And his 'ascension,' the manner in which he rose into heaven IS the focus and main point of the passage. The way or manner in which he 'ascended' is the main focus of the passage of the way or manner in which he would 'return.' The angel's words confirm this.

    Remember, "Like" and "Like that" are two different words/phrases. And you already know the Greek word used in this case, which is more or less a similitude; not an exactitude.
    The word 'like' translated from the Greek word 'on' is an early English translation and can be misleading, and this is the word used in some bible translations given below. The word 'on' is to mean 'who, which, what, that' as is given below.

    New International Version (©1984)
    "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    "Men of Galilee," they said, "why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!"

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.'

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

    International Standard Version (©2008)
    They asked, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven."

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    They asked, "Why are you men from Galilee standing here looking at the sky? Jesus, who was taken from you to heaven, will come back in the same way that you saw him go to heaven."

    King James Bible
    Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    American King James Version
    Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.

    American Standard Version
    who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

    Bible in Basic English
    And said, O men of Galilee, why are you looking up into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken from you into heaven, will come again, in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Who also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking up to heaven? This Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, as you have seen him going into heaven.

    Darby Bible Translation
    who also said, Men of Galilee, why do ye stand looking into heaven? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven.

    English Revised Version
    which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, which was received up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

    Webster's Bible Translation
    Who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up to heaven? this same Jesus who is taken from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Weymouth New Testament
    who said, "Galilaeans, why stand looking into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into Heaven will come in just the same way as you have seen Him going into Heaven."

    World English Bible
    who also said, "You men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who was received up from you into the sky will come back in the same way as you saw him going into the sky."

    Young's Literal Translation
    who also said, 'Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.'


    The Greek Lexicons are in agreement that the words 'on tropon' given in Acts 1:11 mean:

    3739 ('on')
    Original Word: ὅς, ἥ, ὅ
    Part of Speech: Relative Pronoun
    Transliteration: hos, hé, ho
    Phonetic Spelling: (hos)
    Short Definition: who, which, what, that

    Definition
    usually rel. who, which, that, also demonstrative this, that

    5158 ('tropon')
    Original Word: τρόπος, ου, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: tropos
    Phonetic Spelling: (trop'-os)
    Short Definition: way, manner, character
    Definition: (a) way, manner, (b) manner of life, character.

    The definition indicates 'on tropon' to mean 'this (or) that way (or) manner' when reading Acts 1:11.

    As I noted, since Christ is to 'descend' from the clouds of heaven in his return, the words of the angel would mean- as he was seen entering the cloud and into heaven by his disciples, Jesus shall be seen returning from the clouds of heaven in Glory in the full sight of men just as he proclaimed in the NT.

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  5. #5
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    OK, for now I'm going to grant that you are correct....although I do not believe that you are. Having said that, then please answer my question.

    How can Caiaphas as well as those who pierced Jesus, see Jesus coming as recorded in the book of Acts, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13?

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    OK, for now I'm going to grant that you are correct....although I do not believe that you are. Having said that, then please answer my question.

    How can Caiaphas as well as those who pierced Jesus, see Jesus coming as recorded in the book of Acts, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13?

    Joe
    Twospirits presented a good rebuttal on the meaning of Jesus return in alike-wise manner in Act 1 using several different bible versions. All seems to say Jesus will return in the same manner as He went up.

    Joe, answer the question please, "Did Caiaphas pierced him?", "Was Caiphas alive when Jesus came back in the supposed AD 70?" No, he was dead by the AD 30s, then who pierced Him?". Even those who pierced Him, were they still alive in AD70? I doubt so when they should have been over 60 years of age. Then what does Jesus meant by "those who pierced Him"?


    God Blessings for all.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  7. #7
    TheForgiven wrote,

    OK, for now I'm going to grant that you are correct....although I do not believe that you are.
    Fine, but you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the Inspired Word.

    Having said that, then please answer my question.

    How can Caiaphas as well as those who pierced Jesus, see Jesus coming as recorded in the book of Acts, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13?
    Cheow also asked you:

    Joe, answer the question please, "Did Caiaphas pierced him?", "Was Caiphas alive when Jesus came back in the supposed AD 70?" No, he was dead by the AD 30s, then who pierced Him?". Even those who pierced Him, were they still alive in AD70? I doubt so when they should have been over 60 years of age. Then what does Jesus meant by "those who pierced Him"?
    You ask that question because you see the passages you noted as fulfilled when you parallel them with Acts. You see Jesus' coming occurring in A.D. 70., where I see Christ's coming as future.

    In any case, concerning Mt. 26:64, Caiaphas and the priests 'seeing' Jesus, here's my view on how I have come to read this passage.

    Mt. 26:64, 'Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see* the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.'

    Jesus told the priests 'hereafter you will see---.' The word for 'will see' in Mt. 26:64 is the Greek word 'optanomai.' Here's what Strongs says of this word:

    3700 optanomai
    Original Word: ὀπτάνομαι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: optanomai
    Phonetic Spelling: (op-tan'-om-ahee)
    Short Definition: I appear, am seen
    Definition: I appear, am seen (by), let myself be seen (by).

    Cognate: 3700 optánomai (or optomai/optanō, likely a later cognate of 3708 /horáō) – become seen (appear). See 3708 (horaō).

    3708 horaó
    Original Word: ὁράω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: horaó
    Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
    Short Definition: I see, look upon, experience
    Definition: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.

    3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).
    [The aorist form (eidon), is discussed at 1492 /e*dō, "see." The future tense, and middle-passive form, are discussed under 3700 /optánomai, "see."]

    According to Strongs, the word used in Mt. 28:64 is seen as having the meaning of both senses. They will not only 'perceive hereafter' (in time) but will also 'see' Christ 'hereafter.' By the use of His word Christ seems to be telling them, from that point on (present) and onward (future) this very Truth would come to pass, either in this life or the next.

    This fulfillment would also apply to 'those who pierced him.'

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  8. #8
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    Hi Henry,
    You bring up some good points and definitions here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Fine, but you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the Inspired Word.

    Cheow also asked you:

    You ask that question because you see the passages you noted as fulfilled when you parallel them with Acts. You see Jesus' coming occurring in A.D. 70., where I see Christ's coming as future.

    In any case, concerning Mt. 26:64, Caiaphas and the priests 'seeing' Jesus, here's my view on how I have come to read this passage.

    Mt. 26:64, 'Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see* the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.'

    Jesus told the priests 'hereafter you will see---.' The word for 'will see' in Mt. 26:64 is the Greek word 'optanomai.' Here's what Strongs says of this word:

    3700 optanomai
    Original Word: ὀπτάνομαι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: optanomai
    Phonetic Spelling: (op-tan'-om-ahee)
    Short Definition: I appear, am seen
    Definition: I appear, am seen (by), let myself be seen (by).

    Cognate: 3700 optánomai (or optomai/optanō, likely a later cognate of 3708 /horáō) – become seen (appear). See 3708 (horaō).

    3708 horaó
    Original Word: ὁράω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: horaó
    Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
    Short Definition: I see, look upon, experience
    Definition: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.

    3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).
    [The aorist form (eidon), is discussed at 1492 /e*dō, "see." The future tense, and middle-passive form, are discussed under 3700 /optánomai, "see."]

    According to Strongs, the word used in Mt. 28:64 is seen as having the meaning of both senses. They will not only 'perceive hereafter' (in time) but will also 'see' Christ 'hereafter.' By the use of His word Christ seems to be telling them, from that point on (present) and onward (future) this very Truth would come to pass, either in this life or the next.

    This fulfillment would also apply to 'those who pierced him.'

    God bless---Twospirits
    So we need to look at the manner in which he left and would come.

    Stacking it all up, we have,...
    I appear, Am seen, Let myself be seen, Become seen, Appear, Experience, Percieve, Discern, Be Aware, Percieve with an inner Spiritual perception.And this Experience of spiritual perception would come to pass either in this life or the next and from that point in time onward.

    So just as Jesus was taken into a cloud. (Less substantial than physical matter) He would also come in this same manner.
    Now, I am not saying less real, but less substantial. Less physical. That, in my understanding is what is being pointed out by the use of the word cloud.
    Clouds can obscure and also reveal. Like a veil.

    2co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
    2co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

    You quoted Matthew here:
    Mt. 26:64, 'Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see* the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.'

    This sounds like the "Experience" or "Spiritual perception" that Stephen had.

    Ac 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    Ac 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
    Ac 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

    Obviously those who were stoning him were unaware of what Stephen was seeing. Otherwise they would not have stoned him.
    Here is the crux of the matter.
    If "Hereafter" means it is now available as Stephen found out, and tried to tell those who were stoning him, and the angel said that Jesus would come in a like manner in which he left,... Then wouldn't it make sense that it is an individual experience that not everyone will experience at the same time.

    Some will experience it while still here and alive on this earth in earthly bodies and some at death.
    If those who had crucified Jesus did not come to Jesus while still alive and in physical bodies, they may have, at the point of death, saw what they had been missing by not accepting Jesus.

    Hereafter implies the availability of that experience of seeing Jesus coming in "clouds of heaven" to everyone who has that veil lifted and he has "let himself be seen" since that day that he left "in the same manner."

    Bob

  9. #9
    Bob May wrote,

    So we need to look at the manner in which he left and would come.
    The manner in which he left and would come is given in Acts 1:9-11. What you are doing in your post is using the definition of the word 'optanomai' seen in Mt. 26:64 and 'horaó' the other definition given and placing their meaning onto the Acts passage. To do so is incorrect, the reason is given below.

    So just as Jesus was taken into a cloud. (Less substantial than physical matter) He would also come in this same manner.
    Now, I am not saying less real, but less substantial. Less physical. That, in my understanding is what is being pointed out by the use of the word cloud.
    What you may not understand is that Acts 1:11 does not use the word that was used in Mt. 26:64. Here below is the passage and the word and its definition used there.

    Acts 1:11, 'Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen* ( theaomai) him go into heaven.'

    2300. theaomai
    theaomai: to behold, look upon
    Original Word: θεάομαι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: theaomai
    Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ah'-om-ahee)
    Short Definition: I see, behold, contemplate, visit
    Definition: I see, behold, contemplate, look upon, view; I see, visit.

    theáomai (from tháomai, "to gaze at a spectacle") – properly, gaze on (contemplate) as a spectator; to observe intently, especially to interpret something (grasp its significance); to see (concentrate on) so as to significantly impact (influence) the viewer.

    The angels words make it clear, as they literally saw him, beheld him rising (not 'perceiving in the mind') is the very manner in which he will come back. '--as you have 'theaomai' (seen) him go into heaven.'

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  10. #10
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    Henry and Cheow still have not answered the question.

    So I'm going to ask them once again.

    How can Caiaphas see Jesus coming in the cloud of heaven IF HE'S DEAD. Remember, Jesus told him specifically:

    62 And the high priest [Caiaphas] arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    It's a pretty straight forward question. Now I know that Cheow tried usurping the idea that Caiaphas may have been dead by 70AD. But unfortunately, without facts to prove this, his question is moot. At any rate, neither still answered the question.

    Jesus told Caiaphas (and all who were responsible for His execution) that THEY would see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power (heavenly Throne), and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    You see? The Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant by this. Apparently Cheow and Henry do not; that's because they are accustomed to 21st century thinking. The Jews were not confused by this statement; if so, they would have reacted with questions. But "coming in the cloud of heaven" was a common theme understood by Jews as God's casting judgment using nations. He's done this several times in the Old Testament; one being Jeremiah 4.

    Now, please answer the question. If you answered it, and I missed it, then I apologize. But I read both posts and I did not see an answer; only a question.

    Once again. How will Caiaphas see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven?

    Joe

    My answer to Cheow's question. DID CAIAPHAS PIERCE JESUS? The answer is all who rejected Jesus and demanded His execution to Pontious Pilot, were the ones responsible for piercing Jesus. Now it may appear that some on here will appeal to the "direct assault" on Jesus; namely those who were directly responsible for driving the nails in the hands/legs of Jesus. But that's just absurd. Jesus said, "He who hates his brother without cause is a murder...." Those who hated Jesus to the point of having Him arrested, and demanding His execution, were responsible for piercing Jesus. Besides, Cheow may not remember the response of the Jews when Pontious washed his hands of the entire ordeal and tried to set Him free, they said, "His blood be on our head.." Cheow also seems to forget Matthew 23, when Jesus said that all of the blood shed on the land (Israel) would be poured out upon their own generation. I hope this answers your question. Now please answer mine.
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 10-01-2011 at 02:48 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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