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  1. #1
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    Faster than the speed of light

    Can anything be faster than the speed of light? Yes, Neutrinos. Einstein's e=mc2 needs a review. I have always believe that the speed of light is not the ultimate speed. I also believe that if the speed of light can be slowed, it can certainly also be speeded up. The Big Bang must be faster than the speed of light for it to blow stars billions of light years away.

    http://xmedia.ex.ac.uk/index.php?opt...logy&Itemid=15

    http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...-main-mostpop1

    Neutrinos may have traveled faster than the speed of light
    By Elizabeth Flock
    Scientists at CERN, the world’s largest physics lab, announced a startling finding yesterday that would be enough to make Albert Einstein roll over in his grave: Subatomic particles, called neutrinos, have been found to be traveling faster than the speed of light.

    CERN (Anja Niedringhaus - AP) If true, this development would break a fundamental pillar of physics. Einstein’s special theory of relativity has always told us nothing is supposed to move faster than the speed of light, 299,792,458 meters per second.

    CERN scientists are now asking others to verify the measurements before claiming the discovery to be true.


    Albert Einstein. (AP) “The feeling that most people have is this can’t be right, this can’t be real,” said James Gillies, a spokesman for CERN.

    Rob Plunkett, a scientist at Fermilab, one of only two labs in the world that can try to replicate CERN’s results, says he’s keeping an open mind, but “it’s dangerous to lay odds against Einstein. Einstein has been tested repeatedly over and over again.”

    Post science writer Joel Achenbach says that he’s sticking with Einstein, at least for now, because:

    Einstein’s theory... isn’t based primarily on measurements.
    Einstein’s theory emerged from thought experiments. It was a deep insight into the nature of the universe. Subsequent experiments for more than a century have verified that he was right.
    For the new finding to carry a lot of weight, it would need more than an instrumental measurement. It would need a theoretical foundation. Otherwise you have something that is enigmatic rather than revolutionary.
    When CERN clocked the neutrino beam, it was traveling 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists put the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds, making the difference significant.

    If the results are confirmed, they won’t change how we live or how the universe behaves. But it will shake the very foundation of what we believe.


    lLt our light shnes forth to the world, Amen
    Last edited by CWH; 09-23-2011 at 09:35 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Can anything be faster than the speed of light? Yes, Neutrinos. Einstein's e=mc2 needs a review. I have always believe that the speed of light is not the ultimate speed. I also believe that if the speed of light can be slowed, it can certainly also be speeded up. The Big Bang must be faster than the speed of light for it to blow stars billions of light years away.
    Fascinating stuff CWH - thanks for sharing.

    I thinks it's much too early to toss Relativity into the junk bin of false science. As the article mentioned, there could be a systematic error in their measurements and/or analysis of the data. And even if not, there could be some other explanation. The theoretical foundation of Relativity and it's experimental confirmation will not fall easily. But then again, it could be "wrong" (or better, "approximate") like the Newtonian theory that preceded. And even if neutrino could travel fast then light, it may be some sort of "special case" that is not applicable to "normal matter." There are just too many possibilities for any kind of conclusion at this time.

    And where did you get the idea that light "can certainly also be speeded up"?

    As for the inflationary cosmology implying that things can move faster than light - it appears you forgot that it is space-time itself that expanded "faster than light." None of the matter within that space-time manifold moved faster than light relative to other matter. See here.

    I find it curious that you have "beliefs" about advanced topics in Physics. Do you know integral and differential calculus? Complex analysis? Statistical mechanics? How can you have "beliefs" about things of which you know so little?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  3. #3
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    There is a question that I would like to ask the experts here. If something can travel faster than light, can we see it? Of course, it will be invisible as it will be too fast for the human eyes to see. But imagine it as traveling across or towards us in the vast distance of space or rotating stationary in space, can we see it with our naked eyes? This is taking into consideration that light cannot travel faster to "hit" this object traveling faster than the speed of light and reflect it back to our eyes. We are able to see things because light reflect them to our eyes. I have a deduction that since light cannot reflect an object traveling faster than the sped of light, it will then appear as a visible black object. It cannot be invisible. Can this be a possible explanation of the black holes and black matter? I do not believe in the explanation that black holes have such powerful gravity force that even light cannot escape. This is based on the strong gravity of the sun in which its gravity pull does not seem to have any effect in slowing down the speed of light and even the speed of meteors.

    God Blessings to all.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    There is a question that I would like to ask the experts here. If something can travel faster than light, can we see it? Of course, it will be invisible as it will be too fast for the human eyes to see. But imagine it as traveling across or towards us in the vast distance of space or rotating stationary in space, can we see it with our naked eyes? This is taking into consideration that light cannot travel faster to "hit" this object traveling faster than the speed of light and reflect it back to our eyes. We are able to see things because light reflect them to our eyes. I have a deduction that since light cannot reflect an object traveling faster than the sped of light, it will then appear as a visible black object. It cannot be invisible. Can this be a possible explanation of the black holes and black matter? I do not believe in the explanation that black holes have such powerful gravity force that even light cannot escape. This is based on the strong gravity of the sun in which its gravity pull does not seem to have any effect in slowing down the speed of light and even the speed of meteors.

    God Blessings to all.
    Hey there Cheow Wee,

    Your question is an echo of Einstein's own question that led him to discover the theory of relativity. He conducted a gedanken (thought) experiment, asking himself what would happen to his reflection in a mirror as he passed the speed of light.

    Why don't you believe that black holes cannot trap light?

    Why do you say that the mass of the sun does not slow down the light emitting from it? Do you have a scientific paper in mind?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #5
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there Cheow Wee,

    Your question is an echo of Einstein's own question that led him to discover the theory of relativity. He conducted a gedanken (thought) experiment, asking himself what would happen to his reflection in a mirror as he passed the speed of light.
    That's exactly my hypothetical question:
    What would happen to his reflection in a mirror as he passed faster than the speed of light? Will he still see himself in the mirror? No, because it is faster than the speed of light and light is just not fast enough to hit it and reflect back. In that case, what will he see in the mirror? Will he see an invisible image or a transparent image or a blank white image or a blank black image? I think it will be a blank black image because any image which light cannot reflect back to the eye will be seen as black.

    Why don't you believe that black holes cannot trap light?
    First, it will need tremendous amount of gravity to stop light from escaping. Secondly, It would also attract light around it and I would expect to see an aura of progressive level of darkness around the black hole as light is being slowed as it pulsl into the black hole. So far, no one has managed to measure the speed of gravity which I suspect to be faster than the speed of light. Now, if the speed of gravity is faster than the speed of light then hypothetically gravity will be seen as something black.....a black hole. Of course, there could be a possibility of both i.e. a very strong gravity and a gravity faster than the speed of light that caused us to see as a black hole.

    Why do you say that the mass of the sun does not slow down the light emitting from it? Do you have a scientific paper in mind?
    There are some papers that show the arching of light as it passed towards the sun or planets, but I am not convinced that it is due to the pull of gravity because the arch of light is not proportionate the the huge difference between the gravitational pull of the sun compared to the smaller gravitational pull of the planets. And is the arch of light due to gravitational pull or the magnetic effects of the sun and planets? It is a known fact that magnetism can affect light, but can gravity really affect light? Some say gravity and electro-magnetism are the same thing, I doubt so as their principles are different. Besides, photons which light is consists of is not affected by gravity.


    Many God Blessings to you all.
    Last edited by CWH; 11-14-2011 at 05:12 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
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  6. #6
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    God is Light

    Thanks Cheow for raising a thoughtful topic!

    1st John 1:5 makes an interesting comment that "God is Light". Of course there are a number of ways to interpret that statement, but I did think it rather fascinating that time & space were determined to be the variables when it comes to the motion of light rather than light itself being flexible. If the theory is correct, it makes an interesting comparison in that the other elements within the universe yield to light and are subject to its attributes. Of course, gravity has been accused of bending/attracting light.

    Ah yes gravity, we battle it our entire lives from the moment we first roll over in the crib, to the act of lifting our head, then onto the crawl, then pulling ourselves up to our feet, hanging on to steady ourselves in the erect position, then letting go in a gamble to take those first steps as we progress to the defiant, overcoming act of running & jumping.

    But then, after many years of this temporary victory, we begin to succumb to its enduring rule. We begin to slouch in posture, endure back pain from years of stress, the skin begins to sag and the will to fight the ongoing battle begins to show signs of resignation. In the final years, if we live long enough, we walk with a cane to once again steady ourselves, and then concede to a wheel chair and ultimately we return to the crib, "bedridden", until finally, in the end, we return from whence we came, to the dust of the earth, our own grave. Gravity will conquer all newcomers... but, and yes... there is a "but", But God, in Christ, has through the resurrection of Christ, proven that even gravity is subject to His Almighty Power... unable to hold Him fast.

    John

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Thanks Cheow for raising a thoughtful topic!

    1st John 1:5 makes an interesting comment that "God is Light". Of course there are a number of ways to interpret that statement, but I did think it rather fascinating that time & space were determined to be the variables when it comes to the motion of light rather than light itself being flexible. If the theory is correct, it makes an interesting comparison in that the other elements within the universe yield to light and are subject to its attributes. Of course, gravity has been accused of bending/attracting light.
    This raises a few fascinating points. The "proper time" experienced by a photon is zero. In other words, it takes no time to go from point A to point B in the photon's frame of reference. Thus, light is "everywhere" at the same in its own reference frame.

    Another thing about light - what if Light = Consciousness, literally? This would solve the whole "duality" of mind/matter or spirit/matter. The universe is really just modulated light/consciousness.

    Of course, in most cases I would be inclined to think that the phrase "God is light" is a metaphor. But given the idea that light/energy is the "stuff of the universe" it may well be that God is literally "light." Very cool idea, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Ah yes gravity, we battle it our entire lives from the moment we first roll over in the crib, to the act of lifting our head, then onto the crawl, then pulling ourselves up to our feet, hanging on to steady ourselves in the erect position, then letting go in a gamble to take those first steps as we progress to the defiant, overcoming act of running & jumping.

    But then, after many years of this temporary victory, we begin to succumb to its enduring rule. We begin to slouch in posture, endure back pain from years of stress, the skin begins to sag and the will to fight the ongoing battle begins to show signs of resignation. In the final years, if we live long enough, we walk with a cane to once again steady ourselves, and then concede to a wheel chair and ultimately we return to the crib, "bedridden", until finally, in the end, we return from whence we came, to the dust of the earth, our own grave. Gravity will conquer all newcomers... but, and yes... there is a "but", But God, in Christ, has through the resurrection of Christ, proven that even gravity is subject to His Almighty Power... unable to hold Him fast.

    John
    Gravity is a grave subject, is it not?

    I am beginning to see the wisdom of death. Indeed, the Gospel is couched in the language of death/resurrection, which is the fundamental rhythm of life. It seems more than a coincidence that the death and resurrection of Christ happens near the Spring equinox when the whole northern hemisphere is experiencing its resurrection.

    And this reveals the wisdom of death. I long to die and be reborn fresh like a new born babe. Only it would be nice if I could keep some of the hard-earned wisdom that comes with age and experience. But that's the wisdom of death. It is merely rebooting life.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    That's exactly my hypothetical question:
    What would happen to his reflection in a mirror as he passed faster than the speed of light? Will he still see himself in the mirror? No, because it is faster than the speed of light and light is just not fast enough to hit it and reflect back. In that case, what will he see in the mirror? Will he see an invisible image or a transparent image or a blank white image or a blank black image? I think it will be a blank black image because any image which light cannot reflect back to the eye will be seen as black.
    In your experiment, it sounds like you are thinking of moving relative to the mirror. That's different than Einstein's thought experiment. He was thinking of holding a mirror in his hand, at rest in his reference frame, and then moving faster and faster. He concluded nothing should change, which would mean that the speed of light is independent of your frame of reference, i.e. constant.

    Now you experiment is very different. As you move faster and faster relative to the mirror, the light would be red shifted more and more until it went dark as you approached the speed of light relative to the mirror. This is similar to the Doppler Effect in sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    First, it will need tremendous amount of gravity to stop light from escaping.
    But that's the whole point of a black hole. It has a singularity in the center which creates an event horizon so that anything that is inside cannot get outside.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Secondly, It would also attract light around it and I would expect to see an aura of progressive level of darkness around the black hole as light is being slowed as it pulsl into the black hole.
    Yes, that is what you would see as matter is sucked in. It doesn't mean anything is getting out.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    So far, no one has managed to measure the speed of gravity which I suspect to be faster than the speed of light.
    Where do you get such "intuitions?" Do you understand the General Theory of Relativity? If not, what is the source of your guesses? Why would you think that gravity waves could travel faster than light?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Now, if the speed of gravity is faster than the speed of light then hypothetically gravity will be seen as something black.....a black hole. Of course, there could be a possibility of both i.e. a very strong gravity and a gravity faster than the speed of light that caused us to see as a black hole.
    I don't follow this at all. The physics of black holes is based on general relativity. It has nothing to do with the "speed of gravity" and as far as I know, the physicists who invented the idea of black holes never talk like this. It's fun to speculate, but it's a lot more fun to base the speculations on known facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    There are some papers that show the arching of light as it passed towards the sun or planets, but I am not convinced that it is due to the pull of gravity because the arch of light is not proportionate the the huge difference between the gravitational pull of the sun compared to the smaller gravitational pull of the planets.
    Again, it seems your skepticism has no foundation. The curvature of light is very precisely proportionate to the masses involved. Indeed, physicists estimate the mass of black holes by measuring how much the deflect light (gravitational lens effect).

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    And is the arch of light due to gravitational pull or the magnetic effects of the sun and planets?
    It is a known fact that magnetism can affect light, but can gravity really affect light? Some say gravity and electro-magnetism are the same thing, I doubt so as their principles are different. Besides, photons which light is consists of is not affected by gravity.
    Yes, you can affect the polarization of light with a magnetic field (Farraday effect) but you can't bend light with magnetic fields. And the reason for the gravitational effect is because gravity curves the space-time through with the light moves. It doesn't effect the light at all. It affects the space-time through which the light moves.

    Great chatting, my Physicist Phriend!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  9. #9
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    Repeated tests still show neutrinos faster than the speed of light:

    http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...eed-once-again

    Remember in September when neutrinos were observed moving faster than the speed of light, potentially overturning everything we thought we knew about physics? It was met with all sorts of skepticism and dubiety, so the physicists decided to replicate their experiment and take new measurements.
    Well, the new results are in, and they confirm the original findings. The improved version of the experiment, which fired bunches of neutrinos in three-nanosecond bursts through 450 miles of solid rock, was repeated 20 times and reinforced the controversial result.
    The next step is for other labs, such as Japan's T2K, to repeat the experiment. Only then can we start rewriting the textbooks.


    God's Blessings to all.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Repeated tests still show neutrinos faster than the speed of light:

    http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...eed-once-again

    Remember in September when neutrinos were observed moving faster than the speed of light, potentially overturning everything we thought we knew about physics? It was met with all sorts of skepticism and dubiety, so the physicists decided to replicate their experiment and take new measurements.
    Well, the new results are in, and they confirm the original findings. The improved version of the experiment, which fired bunches of neutrinos in three-nanosecond bursts through 450 miles of solid rock, was repeated 20 times and reinforced the controversial result.
    The next step is for other labs, such as Japan's T2K, to repeat the experiment. Only then can we start rewriting the textbooks.


    God's Blessings to all.
    Thanks Cheow Wee. I'm gonna have to look at this some more.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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