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Thread: Mark's Miracles

  1. #11
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    Mark's Miracles

    Hi Richard,

    Thanks for your reply. That's helpful.

    I can't see anything obvious about calves and joy with Qoph, but, I notice you've linked John 19 with 'the Body of Jesus', and since He took our sin into Himself (like when He healed the man whom he told to pick up his bed and walk, and I realise this doesn't apply to every healing miracle -) and Mark's gospel is about servanthood - not only His obedience to His Father in those things which He did and those people whom He healed, but the ultimate act of service being to die on the cross for us - the Body of Christ is an important other link to the number 19. This is an interesting page, too: http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_19.asp

    I feel it's more than interesting that the verse in Malachi calls Him the Sun of Righteousness - a fire around which others revolve to catch its heat and light.

    Rick, I've never seen calves leaping, but Carter Conlon says that the very first time they come out of the stall they frisk about in total delight with their new freedom. (He mentions this to expound the verses which refer to it, and also because he's had the same experience of overwhelming rejoicing and leaping around with joy.)
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hey Richard and Charisma,

    I got a picture of something when I read your two posts. Down here in Texas I see new born calves skipping for joy all the time.

    It's quite a sight to see. They are not very coordinated but they seem very happy.

    I don't think this adds much to your conversation but just wanted to share my observation of new born calves.

    All the best,
    Rick
    Actually, that makes some pretty good sense, given that the Ox/Calf is the Cherub corresponding to the Gospel of Mark in my understanding:

    Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion [Matthew, Christ as King], and the second beast like a calf [Mark, Christ as Servant], and the third beast had a face as a man [Luke, Christ as Son of Man], and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle [John, Christ as Son of God].
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    Thanks for your reply. That's helpful.

    I can't see anything obvious about calves and joy with Qoph, but, I notice you've linked John 19 with 'the Body of Jesus', and since He took our sin into Himself (like when He healed the man whom he told to pick up his bed and walk, and I realise this doesn't apply to every healing miracle -) and Mark's gospel is about servanthood - not only His obedience to His Father in those things which He did and those people whom He healed, but the ultimate act of service being to die on the cross for us - the Body of Christ is an important other link to the number 19. This is an interesting page, too: http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_19.asp

    I feel it's more than interesting that the verse in Malachi calls Him the Sun of Righteousness - a fire around which others revolve to catch its heat and light.

    Rick, I've never seen calves leaping, but Carter Conlon says that the very first time they come out of the stall they frisk about in total delight with their new freedom. (He mentions this to expound the verses which refer to it, and also because he's had the same experience of overwhelming rejoicing and leaping around with joy.)
    Hey there Charisma,

    I agree about the Sun of Righteousness being very significant. But I don't think it relates to the Number 19. The sun is most prominent on Spoke 21, corresponding to Shin, the letter of Fire and the first and last letters of shemesh (sun) which occurs most frequently in Book 21, Ecclesiastes. See my articles called Vanity of Vanities and Where is the Sun?.


    And as for the friskiness of the calf - that is implicit in the word used in Revelation:

    Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf [Strong's 3448], and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

    Strong's 3448
    μοσχος{mos'-khos}
    probably strengthened for oschos (a shoot); calf 6; 6 1) a tender juicy shoot 1a) a sprout, of a plant or tree 2) offspring 2a) of men: a boy or a girl, esp. if fresh and delicate 2b) of animals: a young one 3) a calf, a bullock, a heifer
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Rick, I've never seen calves leaping, but Carter Conlon says that the very first time they come out of the stall they frisk about in total delight with their new freedom. (He mentions this to expound the verses which refer to it, and also because he's had the same experience of overwhelming rejoicing and leaping around with joy.)
    Yeah, I have never seen calves leaping either. Skipping, but not leaping.

    I live in a forest and I see a lot of deer leaping. In fact, they leap right over my fence and wreak havoc with my garden.

    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Yeah, I have never seen calves leaping either. Skipping, but not leaping.

    I live in a forest and I see a lot of deer leaping. In fact, they leap right over my fence and wreak havoc with my garden.

    Rick
    Them deer are amazing critters. I've watch them standing beside a 6 foot fence and then effortlessly (or so it seemed) leap over the fence and land on the otherside. No garden is safe around them.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #16
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    Yo, ALL ...

    I wanted to post this exchange I had with Abigail and Victor in this thread four years ago back in October 2007 when I was still a believer.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abigail View Post
    I read something about the Gospel of Mark today which said 'The nineteen miracles recorded in this short book....'

    Isn't Mark on spoke 19 ...has anyone counted the miracles recorded in Mark?I admit I haven't ...yet
    Ah ... now you are thinking a lot like me! I notice those little "coincidences" too. But when it comes to counting things like how many miracles or healings or parables folks always come up with different numbers because there always seems to be some ambiguities. So I googled "nineteen miracles" and the first link brings up this article about Mark:

    http://www.koinonia-fellowship.org/I...on_to_Mark.htm

    Here's a quote:

    Action-Packed

    As mentioned earlier, Mark’s gospel does not emphasize words or long sermons; but rather flows from one action-packed event to another. Unlike the other Gospels, Mark records only four parables and nineteen miracles. Mark changes from one event to another by frequenting the use of the Greek word Euthus. This colorful word, which is used forty-seven times in this Gospel, describes 'directly, at once, soon, as soon as, forthwith, immediately, shortly, straightway' (Strong 33, 1112).
    Of course, I like that quote because the section in the Bible Wheel book concerning Mark is called "The Gospel of Action" and links to the Quph KeyWord "qal" meaning "swift" like a runner. It really is a powerful connection. But the number of miracles? I don't know because I haven't counted them. So always the skeptic, I googled "eighteen miracles" and found other articles about Mark, such as this one:

    http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/mark.htm

    Here's a quote:

    The Gospel was probably written in Rome for a primarily Gentile audience, to convince them that Jesus of Nazareth, in spite of his sufferings and death, was the Son of God. It has been called a Gospel of action because it records 18 miracles (similar in count to Matthew and Luke) but only 4 parables (Matthew includes 18 parables and Luke 19). Jesus' victory over evil through his deeds and death receives emphasis. Much material in Mark is repeated in Matthew and in Luke, leading most scholars to conclude that Mark was written first and used independently by the other writers.
    I really like this one, because I didn't even have to add the bold to the phrase "Gospel of action" - its in the original article. And that pretty much exemplifies the kinds of links that I put in the Bible Wheel book. They are super obvious and recognized by everyone. Anybody who knows anything about the Bible should imediately recognized the validity of the Bible Wheel .... or so it seems to me. It really is a mystery how its been out there on the internet since 2001 and its still relatively unknown.

    So anyway, thanks for the tip! There might be something to it - I'll just have to count the miracles and find out why there is a difference. It certainly is interesting that folks link the high frequency of miracles to the "action" nature of the Gospel. I have a tingle in the back of my head that suggests there is some inherent connection between Quph and Miracles but I can't quite recall what it might be right now.

    Richard
    Since many folks that are currently seeing the "skeptical" Richard may not have known me back then, I thought it would be helpful to show that skepticism is nothing new to me. When told about there being 19 miricles in Mark, I responded by saying:
    But the number of miracles? I don't know because I haven't counted them. So always the skeptic, I googled "eighteen miracles" and found other articles about Mark, such as this one:
    And to balance things, so that folks can see that skepticism is not necessarily antithetical to faith, here is how I responded when Victor tod me about serindipitously finding the list of 19 miracles he had compiled:

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Hi Abigail!

    You are correct! You are reminding me of the my early days with the Bible Wheel. When I first learned of the Wheel, I had an intuition and this was one of the things that I went to check. I counted exactly 19 miracles!! There is also reference to 'many healings' performed by Christ, but the specific miracle accounts total 19.
    Hi Victor!

    I'm gonna count them, and also see what others have counted so I can get an idea of the validity of the count. Could you post your list?

    Also, if you have any idea of the connection between Quph and miracles, please share it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Curiously a few days ago I was organizing my stuff and found some old sheets with some of my first notes about the Bible Wheel. And there it was - there was a page with the list of all those miracles. It is right here on my table!

    God bless,
    Victor
    Ah! The blessed synchronicity of God who "worketh all things after the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:11) - with perfect timing I might add!

    Richard
    That was the skeptical me saying - Ah! The blessed synchronicity of God who "worketh all things after the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:11) - with perfect timing I might add!

    Just hoping this will help folks understand who I am and where I'm coming from.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #17
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    Mark's Miracles

    Hi Richard,

    I read the beginning of the thread before I posted in it. All very helpful, thanks.

    I agree about the Sun of Righteousness being very significant. But I don't think it relates to the Number 19.
    I think this is a problem we are going to have with using the gematria as a springboard towards God, instead of God as a springboard towards the gematria.

    Christ, as 'the Sun [of Righteousness]' is, as you say in your comments about 'shin', the fire. Our GOD is a consuming fire. Okay, so what is our God consuming? He is consuming both objectively and subjectively. His love consumed Him to the point of dying on the cross to destroy 'the sin'. That was subjective on His part. Objectively, before Christ even came, but most irrevocably through the revelation provided in His ministry, objectively He consumed sickness and sins, and repelled evil spirits. Before He'd even got close to them, they were crying out about His presence nearby, and begging for temporary deliverance. This has been objectively verified by so many eyewitnesses it's not really open for discussion (imho), although the world IS full of willing ostriches, who prefer to keep their head in the sand.

    When it comes to the healings Christ did because He is 'the Sun [of Righteousness], we begin to get a picture of what matters to God. This is constantly at variance with what matters to man. Strangely, men can come to terms with sickness and sin. But God cannot. Strangely, men can prefer to please themselves more than God. But God cannot abide 'self'. Strangely, men are content with any diversion from facing eternal reality. But the time came when God could not put off any longer dealing with the real root of man's exclusion from God's intimate presence. God loves pure reality. Utter holiness. Total unity with His creation. It would have been impossible for Christ to come and yet do nothing about the condition into which people had fallen. He came for the very purpose of opening a new way of living for man to enter into, and He began with calling them to repentance, healing them, delivering them - all before He had ever mentioned the cross to His nearest admirers.

    Have you ever wondered what it would be like to look into the eyes of the eternal God, the Ancient of Days, the Maker of the Universe? Would you ever have seen such depth, such wisdom, such knowledge, such understanding, such LOVE and PURITY - all in one Person? Have you ever wondered what His voice carried, that thousands of people wanted to hear it as much as possible? Having said all this, I think the 'sprout' part - the ever-young - part of Christ's identity is also necessary.

    Strong's 3448
    μοσχος{mos'-khos}
    probably strengthened for oschos (a shoot); calf 6; 6 1) a tender juicy shoot 1a) a sprout, of a plant or tree 2) offspring 2a) of men: a boy or a girl, esp. if fresh and delicate 2b) of animals: a young one 3) a calf, a bullock, a heifer
    1) a tender juicy shoot 1a) a sprout, of a plant or tree

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

    Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

    'Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven'

    Jeremiah 33:15 5 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

    Zechariah 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.


    The more prophecy one comes across which justifies some of Jesus parables and apparently dense questions, the more one realises that the generation to whom He came had ample information staring them in the face, to identify Him, and, to us as students of His word, so do we!

    I love the picture of His Righteousness being active in healing and delivering the bodies of men, women and children, as an earnest of His desire to heal and deliver our souls from death. Truly, the words 'shall arise' (as the Sun does) also tie in with the picture of a new shoot coming out of a root low down in the earth - all very fitting for the servant picture conveyed by Mark. A servant cannot choose who he serves, and Christ made no distinctions between those He healed or delivered. At least, He showed He true heart when He went beyond His overt 'core mission' to 'the house of Israel', and included Samaritans and Greeks (all comers) under His ministry.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    I read the beginning of the thread before I posted in it. All very helpful, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I agree about the Sun of Righteousness being very significant. But I don't think it relates to the Number 19.
    I think this is a problem we are going to have with using the gematria as a springboard towards God, instead of God as a springboard towards the gematria.
    Good morning Charisma,

    I don't know what you mean when you talk about "gematria as a springboard towards God" as opposed to "God as a springboard towards the gematria." The question about the symbolic meaning of "sun of righteousness" and the Number 19 is a question about if and how those concepts are related in the Bible. It has nothing to do with gematria or God functioning as a "springboard" one towards the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    This has been objectively verified by so many eyewitnesses it's not really open for discussion (imho), although the world IS full of willing ostriches, who prefer to keep their head in the sand.
    Who are the witnesses of whom you speak? I presume you mean the people written about in the Bible. But how do they function as "witnesses" iof we can't objectively verify anything they said? The book of Mormon is filled with "witnesses" that claim things you don't beleive. Why do you believe one book but not the other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    When it comes to the healings Christ did because He is 'the Sun [of Righteousness], we begin to get a picture of what matters to God. This is constantly at variance with what matters to man. Strangely, men can come to terms with sickness and sin. But God cannot. Strangely, men can prefer to please themselves more than God. But God cannot abide 'self'. Strangely, men are content with any diversion from facing eternal reality. But the time came when God could not put off any longer dealing with the real root of man's exclusion from God's intimate presence. God loves pure reality. Utter holiness. Total unity with His creation. It would have been impossible for Christ to come and yet do nothing about the condition into which people had fallen. He came for the very purpose of opening a new way of living for man to enter into, and He began with calling them to repentance, healing them, delivering them - all before He had ever mentioned the cross to His nearest admirers.
    Those are some intense observations! When I think of God I think of PURE REALITY, not a being who "loves" pure Reality. In other words, God is Reality. Therefore, God has "total unity with his creation" by nature, not choice.

    Why can't "God abide 'self'?" Why did he create "selves" like Adam and Eve if he could not abide them?

    I believe in Ultimate Unity, but that's Unity with Diversity which makes it so wonderful. In one sense you lose yourself when you discoer your unity with God, but in another sense, you remain you. It's like what Paul said "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." So what's going on? Did Paul cease to be a "self?" No. I mean yes. I mean well ... Unity with the Divine involves mystery. The mystery of Christ in you.

    And what makes you think that people hate "pure Reality." I LOVE pure Reality. And what abotu you? To write like you do, you seem to be indicatng that you love pure Reality too. So who are these people that you think don't love Reality? Sure, I know there are plenty of people lost in a lower kind of consciousness that focuses on physcial things and the flesh, but there are also children in the world. We know children will grow if nutured, and the same is true fo the "children of consciousness" who are focused on (and some trapped in) a lower aspect of Reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Have you ever wondered what it would be like to look into the eyes of the eternal God, the Ancient of Days, the Maker of the Universe? Would you ever have seen such depth, such wisdom, such knowledge, such understanding, such LOVE and PURITY - all in one Person? Have you ever wondered what His voice carried, that thousands of people wanted to hear it as much as possible? Having said all this, I think the 'sprout' part - the ever-young - part of Christ's identity is also necessary.
    I can imagine that about Christ since he was a man, but it doesn't make any sense to me to try to think those thoughts about "God" since God is supposed to be some sort of abstract absolute being outside of time who is nothing like a perons in any way at all, and cannot even "act" because everthing was frozen in eternity before time began.

    The Bible is very contradictory about the nature of God. Sometimes it presents him like a mere human who changes his mind, has to "come down" to actuall look at things because he doesn't have knowledge yet, and thngs like that. Then at other times he is presented as "all knowing" and "all powerful." And then the scholastic philosophers invented their version of the Christain God who is an Omniscient Trinity of Three Persons but also is "Absolutely Simple" and so on and the whole thing became unintelligible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    The more prophecy one comes across which justifies some of Jesus parables and apparently dense questions, the more one realises that the generation to whom He came had ample information staring them in the face, to identify Him, and, to us as students of His word, so do we!
    What prophecies are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    I love the picture of His Righteousness being active in healing and delivering the bodies of men, women and children, as an earnest of His desire to heal and deliver our souls from death. Truly, the words 'shall arise' (as the Sun does) also tie in with the picture of a new shoot coming out of a root low down in the earth - all very fitting for the servant picture conveyed by Mark. A servant cannot choose who he serves, and Christ made no distinctions between those He healed or delivered. At least, He showed He true heart when He went beyond His overt 'core mission' to 'the house of Israel', and included Samaritans and Greeks (all comers) under His ministry.
    Yes, that is some beautiful imagery. But I don't see any necessary link with Mark. The "sun" (light of the world) imagery is largely from John and Malachi, not Mark or Spoke 19. The Bible is a tapestry where all the parts connect. The study of the patterns on the Wheel reveal some amazing connections, but then those threads must be woven together to see the whole.

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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