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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Then where did the Greeks get it? Do you think they just made it up themselves?
    I'm looking at this:
    http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/...TD/cgg/ID/3184

    Could it be that the restrainer in 2Thessalonians 2 is Hell or Tartarus or the bottomless pit where the beast comes out of in Revelation 9?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Then where did the Greeks get it? Do you think they just made it up themselves?
    Yes, they made it up along with all those stories about Zeus, Apollo, the Titans, the Underworld ruled by the god Hades. Are you suggesting that God inspired Greek mythology, and that we should all believe in Zeus, Apollo, Diana, the Titans, Hades, and Tartarus?
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I'm looking at this:
    http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/...TD/cgg/ID/3184

    Could it be that the restrainer in 2Thessalonians 2 is Hell or Tartarus or the bottomless pit where the beast comes out of in Revelation 9?
    Here's a quote from that article:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Forerunner
    In Greek mythology, Tartarus was the lowest hell, the place where the Titans (who rebelled against Zeus) were restrained. It is described as being as far below Hades as heaven is high above the earth. As far as we can apply Greek mythology, we can understand that these angels were cast so far down as to be out of sight. Their place of restraint was so far down that one would think they would never be able to crawl out.
    God is trying to get across that the angels have been defeated—cast down from heaven to the earth, as Revelation 12 shows. The earth, then, is a place of restraint, a prison, for them.
    So that's where the "Bible doctrine" came from - pagan Greek mythology! An exact analogy is used: Just as Zeus "chained" the rebellious Titans in Tartarus, so Peter says that God "chained" the angels that rebelled against him there too. Now this presents a real problem, because Christians are not supposed to believe in all those pagan gods and the mythology relating to them. We are supposed to think it's all lies and deception from "Satan." How is it then that we are supposed to reject 99% of Greek mythology, but retain teachings about Tartarus and Hades as "God's inspired truth?"
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  4. #24
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Wow - I had no idea that you rejected the doctrine of hell. Fascinating. Have you explained this to your pastor? I'm sure he'd be rather interested to know that you reject the orthodox Christian faith.
    I have never rejected the doctrine of Hell. It is the fundamental belief of almost all religions. And in fact, many preterists believe in the concept of Hell. God punishes us in many ways not necessary in Hell such as in sufferings, good examples are Job and Jonah.


    Obviously, it was a mistake, not a lie. A lie is defined as stating something that you know is false. I didn't know it was false at the time I wrote it. I thought I would always be grateful, and that's what I said. The fact that I was wrong does not mean I lied. You really need to learn English better.
    Taking an analogy, You love your loved ones and realized it was a mistake. You didn't know it was false at that time but you said that you will love them greatly and thought that you would always love them so. Will you then expect your loved ones to love you back? What would your love ones think of you?


    The same way you know anything is true. Unfortunately, you seem particularly challenged in that area. This is a very common malady amongst Christians because they are taught falsehoods all day long, like the earth is only 6000 years old, or evolution is false, or Adam and Eve were the first humans, and on and on it goes. Then they are taught "apologetics" which is little more than a course in how to twist words to avoid truth. It's very sad.
    Did you know that Carbon dating is only accurate up to a few thousand years? If the earth is billions of years old, how come there are still radioactive elements such as uranium, radium around when they should have decayed into lead long ago? And do you know that pulse of light can be made to travel hundreds and maybe thousands of times faster than the speed of light? There are pulsers in space whose radio waves seem to travel faster than light, there are photons and tachyrons that are thought to travel faster than light.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/781199.stm


    I have never said a word "against God." Everything I have said is about the things the Bible says about God. I've explained this many times, but you don't understand. Why do you persist in such obvious error?
    Anything that was said against the word of God or His people is indirectly saying against God. Didn't Jesus said that whoever is not against us is for us?(Mark 9:40) Therefore if you claimed you are not against God, you are for God and will do what He said.


    No, I did not say that "people who believe in God and Satan are crazy." Please re-read my comment. You asserted that I have been "blinded" but you never stated exactly what OBSERVABLE FACTS OF REALITY I have failed to see. That's why I said your argument was pathetic. It contained no actual content. Nothing for me to understand or even think about. Just the silly and unsupported assertion that I have been "blinded by Satan." Can't you see why that's a lousy argument?
    Can someone who is deceived knows that he had been deceived? Did Apostle Paul knew at that time that he was against God when he persecuted the Christians thinking he was doing a great favor for the nation? Anyone of us can be deceived by Satan even the elect without knowing it.


    Again, you need to work on your English. The verse states:

    Matthew 13:20 "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

    He who received the seed is not the seed. The seed is defined in the parallel passage in Luke:

    Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

    The soil represents the person, and the seed represents the Word of God.

    And as soil receives seed, so a person receives the Word of God.

    Like I said, you got it backwards
    .

    Thanks for your interpretation. I may be wrong here but think about it, which soil are you?


    Now wait a minute! First you deny hell, and now you say Jesus taught it??? Please make up you mind. Are you saying that hell is temporary? Can people get out of hell if they repent? What exactly are you teaching?
    I always believe in Hell, please get it right. Please answer the question, was Jesus a devil if He believes in Hell and advised people to fear God?


    Great! You think Islam and Atheism are just fine. All I need to do is try to repent from any wrongdoing and be a "good person." Man, that's easy. So now you are rejecting another aspect of orthodox Christianity. You don't believe in eternal hell, and you don't think people need to believe in Jesus to be saved. This is great! It seems you are no more Christian than I am
    .
    I believed in eternal Hell and Grace is from God. KNow what this means?:

    Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

    26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”



    And you asked me if I have read the Bible? Dude! I'm embarrassed for you.
    Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 ΒΆ But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    But on the other hand, I can understand your confusion, because the Bible contradicts itself on this topic. There are many verses that say certain people are righteous, and there are verses that say no one is righteous. So you can take your pick. Myself, I see this as an obvious contradiction that proves the Bible has errors. And it is part of a much larger problem, because the idea that people become "righteous" by merely believing in Jesus destroys the meaning of the word. And it also contradicts that verses that say a righteous person is someone who does righteousness, not someone who merely believes in Jesus
    .
    There are many verses which shows undeniably that we are to seek righteousness. If no one is righteous, then why the call to seek righteousness? Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Rightousness...The Beatitudes: "10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


    You did not understand my point. I am not the one advocating BLIND BELIEF IN THE BIBLE. That's what you are doing. You are saying we are supposed to just "believe" whatever it says, unless it says something obviously ridiculous or evil, in which case we are supposed to "believe" it doesn't really mean those things and that they will be revealed in the afterlife as something actually "good." Don't you get it? My question "HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORRECTLY" was supposed to make you realize that you are playing a double-standard with the Bible. You believe what it says only when it agrees with what you want it to say. If it says something you don't like or don't believe, then you say "God will explain it after I die." With that kind of logic, a Muslim could "believe" everything in the Koran, like when it says that Jesus is not the son of God. You destroy your mind when you protect the Bible from the truth this way.
    You did not get the Big Picture. All the goal in all religions is to get people to heaven. And all or almost all religion taught the good will go to heaven; the Bible is no exception.

    And I just noticed the great irony. You say I am blind when in fact you are the one who has chosen to BLINDLY believe the Bible.
    Well, You are blind and I am blind; the saying goes, "If the blind leads the blind and both will fall into the pit". I don't know who is blind and who is not but I do know that when Jesus comes all eyes will see.


    Again, you missed my point. Your answer indicates that you are not even aware that you need to think for yourself! That's scary!

    And it does not take "divine revelations" to know that the Bible is wrong when it says that there is a solid dome "firmament" holding up the "waters that are above." And it doesn't take "divine revelations" to know that the Bible is wrong when it says that God created the sun and moon on the fourth day of creation. Etc., etc., etc..
    That's pathetic, nothing in the Bible seems right to you. The sun, moon and earth just happened to be around by magic. If the Bible is wrong, so is your Biblewheel for it relies on the Bible for its references.


    Great! So you are a UNIVERSALIST! Everyone gets saved. No one needs to believe in Jesus. Like I said, you don't seem to be any more Christian than me.
    I anma partial universalist who believes that everyone will be given ample chances to seek salvation in this life and after and when the last chance has expired, well...... Remember Jesus said to forgive your brother 70 X 7 times. Remember also, not everyone who calls Him Lord, Lord can enter the kingdom of heaven except those who did the will of the Father who is in heaven.

    And you haven't dealt with the fact that if God is anything like a real "parent" then he is an "absent parent" who has abandoned his children. Think about that for a while.
    Will you as a loving parent abandon your children? No. Will you as a parent interfere with their adult married life? No. But "behind the scene", you still cares and loves them andf will help them if they seek your help, and hopes to see all of them one day together in heaven again.


    Your answer is a total non-sequitur. You said that my prosperity should be understood as a blessing from God and proof that he exists and answers prayers. So I asked if the Muslim's prosperity should be understood as a blessing from Allah, and proof of Allah. But you didn't understand, and you changed to the topic to "can't serve God and mammon." You forgot that YOU were the one who said "property and land" was a blessing from God! Your mind is totally confused. You need to think more about what you are reading and writing. My arguments cannot be refuted with such sloppy thinking.
    What I mean is look at the big picture, life on earth is not about properity, earthly treasures but about the goal to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added onto you.

    The Bible does not say that "God helps those who helps themselves." And I am not saying that we should "expect God to totally spoon-feed us." I am saying that there is absolutely no reason to "rely on God" for anything because God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. He was perfectly willing to let MILLIONS of people die who were saved by antibiotics. The fact that the germs evolve a resistance is utterly irrelevant, and I have seen you bring up that ridiculous point before. This indicates a gross lack of logic in your thinking. You should be embarrassed and ashamed. And you should admit this point or everyone reading will see that you YOU STUBBORNLY PERSIST IN KNOWN ERROR! Is this how you "serve God?"
    Even if people totally don't rely on God, MILLIONS will still die right?...hunger, natural disasters, diseases, wars etc. Antibiotics or not it makes no difference. Tell me what does your God of the Theory of Evolution or Science did to save them? However, think about this, when Christians and Atheists die who do you think will likely goes to heaven? Remember, the fool says in his heart, "there is no God".

    I really think it is important that you begin to seek truth Cheow. You don't have to agree with me, but you do need to begin to agree with reality.
    Than you so much, we will see....


    Thank you God for Love and Grace you have given us, Amen.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Here's a quote from that article:


    So that's where the "Bible doctrine" came from - pagan Greek mythology! An exact analogy is used: Just as Zeus "chained" the rebellious Titans in Tartarus, so Peter says that God "chained" the angels that rebelled against him there too. Now this presents a real problem, because Christians are not supposed to believe in all those pagan gods and the mythology relating to them. We are supposed to think it's all lies and deception from "Satan." How is it then that we are supposed to reject 99% of Greek mythology, but retain teachings about Tartarus and Hades as "God's inspired truth?"
    Greek civilization and culture had spread to the Roman world and almost all Europe knew about Greek culture, myths and folklore in those time, The New Testament was written in Greek for the Roman world and thus have to apply Greek culture, myth in the NT in order for people in Europe then to understand.

    Does anyone who wrote English books and apply Chinese culture, myths, folklores in the books and expect the English readers to understand?


    God Blessings to all, Amen.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Greek civilization and culture had spread to the Roman world and almost all Europe knew about Greek culture, myths and folklore in those time, The New Testament was written in Greek for the Roman world and thus have to apply Greek culture, myth in the NT in order for people in Europe then to understand.

    Does anyone who wrote English books and apply Chinese culture, myths, folklores in the books and expect the English readers to understand?


    God Blessings to all, Amen.
    OK. So if you admit that the Bible contains Greek "myths and folklore" can you explain why anyone should believe it? I mean, do you believe there really is a god named "Zeus" who imprisoned other gods called "Titans" in a literal place called "Tartarus?" All those ideas go together. There is no reason we should believe Tartarus is real if the pagan gods Zeus and the Titans are not real.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I have never rejected the doctrine of Hell. It is the fundamental belief of almost all religions. And in fact, many preterists believe in the concept of Hell. God punishes us in many ways not necessary in Hell such as in sufferings, good examples are Job and Jonah.
    OK - I guess the problem is that you have never clearly stated your beliefs. From what you wrote below, I gather that you believe God will give everyone an equal chance now or in the afterlife to repent and believe, and if they refuse, then they go to hell maybe forever? Specifically, you said that "everyone will be given ample chances to seek salvation in this life and after and when the last chance has expired, well......". I'm guessing the "well....." means "in hell forever?" Yes or no? Do you believe that the damned will suffer eternal conscious torment?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I always believe in Hell, please get it right. Please answer the question, was Jesus a devil if He believes in Hell and advised people to fear God?
    Your question is based on a false premise. Jesus never spoke of "hell." The word translated as "hell" is a mistranslation. Jesus spoke of the garbage pit outside of Jerusalem called "Gehenna" which is mistranslated as "hell." And occasionally he spoke of "Hades" which was probably just the grave, though it could also refer to the pagan Greek concept of the "underworld" where the dead go. You have no idea what you are talking about, and it appears that you don't even know what you really believe. You just say words but you don't know what they mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    There are many verses which shows undeniably that we are to seek righteousness. If no one is righteous, then why the call to seek righteousness? Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Rightousness...The Beatitudes: "10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    Your argument is with the Bible, not with me. The Bible states "There is none righteous, no not one." Deal with it.

    How is it you claim to believe the Bible if you don't know or believe what it says?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    You did not get the Big Picture. All the goal in all religions is to get people to heaven. And all or almost all religion taught the good will go to heaven; the Bible is no exception.
    What do you mean by "heaven?" Most of the occurrences of that word in the Bible refer to the sky or the solid dome "firmament" that holds the stars like little light bulbs. Where does the Bible say that believers go to "heaven?" Do you think it is a literal place? If so, you contradict yourself because you have said that you believe there will be a "new heaven and a new earth" and that people will live forever on the new earth, not in heaven. Like I said, you don't seem to have any idea about what you believe or even the meaning of the words you use. You just say self-contradictory things that you have heard from other Christians but don't really understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Well, You are blind and I am blind; the saying goes, "If the blind leads the blind and both will fall into the pit". I don't know who is blind and who is not but I do know that when Jesus comes all eyes will see.
    I agree that you are blind, because you cannot even state what you believe with any clarity. But I am not blind. I don't have all the answers, but I know that I see and can explain what I see and give evidence for what I see. You cannot do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    And it does not take "divine revelations" to know that the Bible is wrong when it says that there is a solid dome "firmament" holding up the "waters that are above." And it doesn't take "divine revelations" to know that the Bible is wrong when it says that God created the sun and moon on the fourth day of creation. Etc., etc., etc..
    That's pathetic, nothing in the Bible seems right to you. The sun, moon and earth just happened to be around by magic. If the Bible is wrong, so is your Biblewheel for it relies on the Bible for its references.
    Well OK then ... you believe there is a solid dome "firmament" holding up the waters that are above. And you believe that God literally created the sun on the literal fourth day, after creating plants on the third. Okey dokey ...

    But you are wrong about how this affects the Bible Wheel. The fact that the Bible contains errors says absolutely nothing about the validity of the Bible Wheel. The Bible Wheel shows a pattern that actually exists in Scripture. The fact that the Bible says some things that are not literally true does not affect the pattern. How is it possible that you fail to understand something so simple and obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I anma partial universalist who believes that everyone will be given ample chances to seek salvation in this life and after and when the last chance has expired, well...... Remember Jesus said to forgive your brother 70 X 7 times. Remember also, not everyone who calls Him Lord, Lord can enter the kingdom of heaven except those who did the will of the Father who is in heaven.
    Ha! Partial Universalist - nice choice of words. But I think I know what you mean. You are a "universalist" in that you believe everyone will be given an equal chance to believe, but you are not a universalist in that you don't believe everyone will accept and be saved.

    So what happens to those who don't ever come to believe when their last chance expires? Eternal conscious torment?

    But in any case, it seems like you are saying that it doesn't really matter what a person believes right now because they'll get another chance after they die. Have you ever tried sharing this idea with other Christians? I can assure you that most will say you are wrong, if not a total heretic.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Will you as a loving parent abandon your children? No. Will you as a parent interfere with their adult married life? No. But "behind the scene", you still cares and loves them andf will help them if they seek your help, and hopes to see all of them one day together in heaven again.
    The Bible calls us "children" not "adults who have no need of a parent." Again, you are writing total confusion. It's like you don't actually understand anything we are talking about. I just don't get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    The Bible does not say that "God helps those who helps themselves." And I am not saying that we should "expect God to totally spoon-feed us." I am saying that there is absolutely no reason to "rely on God" for anything because God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. He was perfectly willing to let MILLIONS of people die who were saved by antibiotics. The fact that the germs evolve a resistance is utterly irrelevant, and I have seen you bring up that ridiculous point before. This indicates a gross lack of logic in your thinking. You should be embarrassed and ashamed. And you should admit this point or everyone reading will see that you YOU STUBBORNLY PERSIST IN KNOWN ERROR! Is this how you "serve God?"
    Even if people totally don't rely on God, MILLIONS will still die right?...hunger, natural disasters, diseases, wars etc. Antibiotics or not it makes no difference. Tell me what does your God of the Theory of Evolution or Science did to save them? However, think about this, when Christians and Atheists die who do you think will likely goes to heaven? Remember, the fool says in his heart, "there is no God".
    Yes, people die no matter what we do. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. Again, you are writing total confusion. It's like you don't actually understand anything we are talking about. I just don't get it. I'm starting to wonder if I am interacting with a machine - a chatterbot programmed to mimic a human. There are out there, and you seem a lot like one when you repeatedly fail to respond intelligently to the points I am making.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Yes, they made it up along with all those stories about Zeus, Apollo, the Titans, the Underworld ruled by the god Hades. Are you suggesting that God inspired Greek mythology, and that we should all believe in Zeus, Apollo, Diana, the Titans, Hades, and Tartarus?
    Mythology's derived from astrology and reality.
    Hindu mythology for example is from an ancient story. Vishnu comes from the name Ish Noah or the man Noah a Diefied man. The pagan Trinity is actually the Father, the Mother and the Son.

    The stories have been corrupted from the truth.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Here's a quote from that article:


    So that's where the "Bible doctrine" came from - pagan Greek mythology! An exact analogy is used: Just as Zeus "chained" the rebellious Titans in Tartarus, so Peter says that God "chained" the angels that rebelled against him there too. Now this presents a real problem, because Christians are not supposed to believe in all those pagan gods and the mythology relating to them. We are supposed to think it's all lies and deception from "Satan." How is it then that we are supposed to reject 99% of Greek mythology, but retain teachings about Tartarus and Hades as "God's inspired truth?"
    Oh come on. Unless proven with forgery how can Peter a fisherman have such knowledge of Greek Mythology?

    What do you think of the book of Enoch? I haven't read it but have heard from it. It talks about angels who have left their first estate. I'm also thinking that the song of Moses in Deuteronomy may possibly come from that book?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Mythology's derived from astrology and reality.
    Hindu mythology for example is from an ancient story. Vishnu comes from the name Ish Noah or the man Noah a Diefied man. The pagan Trinity is actually the Father, the Mother and the Son.

    The stories have been corrupted from the truth.
    That's an interesting thesis. But do you have any evidence? I Googled "Vishnu Ish Noah" and found this article which simply asserted it as fact without any evidence, which is very common on the internet. The online etymological dictionary says Vishnu is "probably from root vish- and meaning 'all-pervader' or 'worker.'". And the wiki says "The name has no certain etymology; it is unattested in Iranian (but Iranian Rašnu is perhaps an indication that the name existed in Indo-Iranian and was replaced in Iranian). The most common interpretation is as vi-snu- from vi- "apart, across" and the zero grade of sānu "summit, ridge, mountain-top", as in "he who steps across / spreads out the mountains", c.f. RV 1.62.5c (of Indra):"

    But more importantly, I don't really know what you mean when you say that "mythology is derived from astrology and reality." How does that relate to it being true? Do you believe all mythologies and all religions? Are you saying that Christianity is no different than Hinduism or astrology?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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