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  1. #1
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    Evolution, Creationism, the Bible, and the Tower of Babel

    This thread was split off from You think English is easy? in the Fund and Games forum.

    ================================================== ==============


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    Chinglish

    In a Beijing hotel lobby:
    "The lift is being fixed for next day. During that time we regret that you will be unbearable."

    ...

    I guess God has some humor when He confused the world's languages!... Alleluia!
    "Chinglesh!" I love it!

    Those are some funny examples Cheow, thanks!



    But I'm curious ... do you actually believe in the story of the Tower of Babel? I mean, do you believe that there was a time in the relatively recent past (< 10,000 years ago) that the population of the whole earth actually spoke the same language, and that the reason we now have different languages is because of an act of God? The reason I ask is because there is no evidence for such a story, and it directly contradicts all the evidence we do have about how different languages formed. For example, we have lots of EVIDENCE that the Romance languages (Spanish, French, Italian, etc.) all EVOLVED from Latin of Rome. And that all happened in the last 2000 years, so we know that those languages did not come from God "confounding our languages. And we have a mountain of evidence about the evolution of all the languages. So how do you understand the story of the Tower of Babel in light of all this scientific and historic evidence?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    "Chinglesh!" I love it!

    Those are some funny examples Cheow, thanks!



    But I'm curious ... do you actually believe in the story of the Tower of Babel? I mean, do you believe that there was a time in the relatively recent past (< 10,000 years ago) that the population of the whole earth actually spoke the same language, and that the reason we now have different languages is because of an act of God? The reason I ask is because there is no evidence for such a story, and it directly contradicts all the evidence we do have about how different languages formed. For example, we have lots of EVIDENCE that the Romance languages (Spanish, French, Italian, etc.) all EVOLVED from Latin of Rome. And that all happened in the last 2000 years, so we know that those languages did not come from God "confounding our languages. And we have a mountain of evidence about the evolution of all the languages. So how do you understand the story of the Tower of Babel in light of all this scientific and historic evidence?
    First off, who gave us the ability to communicate in languages? No animal have such a well-developed vocal cord like humans that could produce so many different sounds and no animal in the world have a brain that can organize those sounds into languages that give meaning to the sounds. If evolution produces languages, why didn't it happens to other animals? Some parrots and birds do have fairly well developed vocal cords that can mimic human language. And many animals according to the THEORY of evolution have been here on earth much longer than humans.

    Second, why did God want to confuse the world language? According to what I read in Genesis, is because human development at that time were too fast due to a single language of communication. This too fast human development may lead to "cultural" shock, stress and knowledge explosion beyond human coping ability. And logically, the way to slow down the rate of human development was to confuse the single language so that it becomes more difficult to understand and co-operate with each other and to separate them.

    Genesis 11:The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

    8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.


    Third, there are remnants of a single language among the world's languages that seem to suggest there was once a common world language. The remnants come in the form of sounds alike and similar ideologies, ideograms in the world languages. Some good examples are, and I am using Chinese as I am more familiar with that language:

    Chinese "ru" has the same meaning as road and route.
    Chinese "mu ti" has the same meaning as motive
    Chinese "sze" has the same meaning as see.
    Chinese "er" has the same meaning as ear
    Chinese "far" means hair and fur.

    In many languages, there are similar ideologies.... the moon represents month or monthly and night, and the sun represents day or daily.
    etc.


    Praise the wisdom of God. Amen.
    Last edited by CWH; 07-30-2011 at 06:35 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    First off, who gave us the ability to communicate in languages? No animal have such a well-developed vocal cord like humans that could produce so many different sounds and no animal in the world have a brain that can organize those sounds into languages that give meaning to the sounds. If evolution produces languages, why didn't it happens to other animals? Some parrots and birds do have fairly well developed vocal cords that can mimic human language. And many animals according to the THEORY of evolution have been here on earth much longer than humans.

    Second, why did God want to confuse the world language? According to what I read in Genesis, is because human development at that time were too fast due to a single language of communication. This too fast human development may lead to "cultural" shock, stress and knowledge explosion beyond human coping ability. And logically, the way to slow down the rate of human development was to confuse the single language so that it becomes more difficult to understand and co-operate with each other and to separate them.

    Genesis 11:The LORD said, 'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.'

    8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.


    Third, there are remnants of a single language among the world's languages that seem to suggest there was once a common world language. The remnants come in the form of sounds alike and similar ideologies, ideograms in the world languages. Some good examples are, and I am using Chinese as I am more familiar with that language:

    Chinese "ru" has the same meaning as road and route.
    Chinese "mu ti" has the same meaning as motive
    Chinese "sze" has the same meaning as see.
    Chinese "er" has the same meaning as ear
    Chinese "far" means hair and fur.

    In many languages, there are similar ideologies.... the moon represents month or monthly and night, and the sun represents day or daily.
    etc.


    Praise the wisdom of God. Amen.
    Speaking of parrots, it's embarrassing to watch humans who should be able to think, acting like parrots who only repeat what they hear without any comprehension at all. You don't know the first thing about evolution Cheow. Your rejection of that science is no different than if you were rejecting Quantum Physics. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

    And unfortunately, I doubt that you want real answers because no matter how much evidence is provided, I get the feeling that you will reject it because it contradicts the dogmas of your religion.

    But I will answer with the hope that it will help you wake up to reality.

    1) who gave us the ability to communicate in languages?
    Nobody "gave us" that ability. It evolved.

    2) If evolution produces languages, why didn't it happens to other animals?

    For the same reasons that other animals have evolved other abilities that we don't have, like flying or weaving spider webs or breathing under water. Furthermore, we can see evolutionary precursors to language in the higher primates, some of whom have been taught to use sign language.

    3) And many animals according to the THEORY of evolution have been here on earth much longer than humans.
    The length of time on the planet does not determine the direction of evolution. Some species like sharks evolve to a very stable (optimal) form that doesn't change for millions of years. It depends upon many facts, such as environmental pressures, competition with other animals, and the possible pathways given the animals evolutionary history.

    As for THEORY: I'm sorry to see that you don't understand the meaning of that word when used in a scientific context. Have you ever heard of the THEORY OF GRAVITY? Is it "just a theory" like evolution?

    4) there are remnants of a single language among the world's languages that seem to suggest there was once a common world language.
    Yes, that is true. Some scientists think they have evidence showing that all languages EVOLVED from a single language over thousands of years. Obviously, this scientific theory has nothing to do with the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel when God supposedly confused languages all at once. The fact that you appeal to this theory to support the Biblical myth demonstrates that you don't understand what you are talking about. You are just grabbing bits and pieces of science, while rejecting the rest, to prop up Bible stories. Don't you realize that no one, not one person, who understands science will be convinced by such arguments?

    All the best.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #4
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    [QUOTE=RAM;33656]
    Speaking of parrots, it's embarrassing to watch humans who should be able to think, acting like parrots who only repeat what they hear without any comprehension at all. You don't know the first thing about evolution Cheow. Your rejection of that science is no different than if you were rejecting Quantum Physics. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

    And unfortunately, I doubt that you want real answers because no matter how much evidence is provided, I get the feeling that you will reject it because it contradicts the dogmas of your religion.
    I am disappointed that some people have degraded themselves to such a state that now Science is their God! They are in my prayers... Human scientific knowledge is full of holes and imperfect. They may solve a problem but creates much more problems....just look at nuclear fission reactors and cars! It's not that I don't trust Science but that Science without God is imperfect. What is God? I believe God is Love, Righteousness, Goodness; without these, Science is imperfect. Many people abuse Science for greed, evil, unrighteousness means which resulted in the problems that we faced today.

    But I will answer with the hope that it will help you wake up to reality.
    1) who gave us the ability to communicate in languages?
    Nobody "gave us" that ability. It evolved.
    Then who started it? You answer will be Nobody, it just happens by chance...somehow ability in communication in languages just started and evolvedby itself by magic.


    2) If evolution produces languages, why didn't it happens to other animals?
    For the same reasons that other animals have evolved other abilities that we don't have, like flying or weaving spider webs or breathing under water. Furthermore, we can see evolutionary precursors to language in the higher primates, some of whom have been taught to use sign language.
    How I wish to be evolved to be able to fly like a bird! What factors caused such different abilities? By chance or by intelligence? Haven't you read Job 38 and try to answer those questions? (I guess your answer is, "It just happened naturally and evolved"):

    1 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
    2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
    3 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

    4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
    5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
    6 On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone—
    7 while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

    8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
    when it burst forth from the womb,
    9 when I made the clouds its garment
    and wrapped it in thick darkness,
    10 when I fixed limits for it
    and set its doors and bars in place,
    11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
    here is where your proud waves halt’?

    12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
    or shown the dawn its place,
    13 that it might take the earth by the edges
    and shake the wicked out of it?
    14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
    its features stand out like those of a garment.
    15 The wicked are denied their light,
    and their upraised arm is broken.

    16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
    or walked in the recesses of the deep?
    17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
    Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
    18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
    Tell me, if you know all this.

    19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
    And where does darkness reside?
    20 Can you take them to their places?
    Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
    21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
    You have lived so many years!

    22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
    or seen the storehouses of the hail,
    23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
    for days of war and battle?
    24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
    or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
    25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
    and a path for the thunderstorm,
    26 to water a land where no one lives,
    an uninhabited desert,
    27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
    and make it sprout with grass?
    28 Does the rain have a father?
    Who fathers the drops of dew?
    29 From whose womb comes the ice?
    Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
    30 when the waters become hard as stone,
    when the surface of the deep is frozen?

    31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
    Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
    32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
    or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
    33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
    Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

    34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
    and cover yourself with a flood of water?
    35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
    Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
    36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
    or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
    37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
    Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
    38 when the dust becomes hard
    and the clods of earth stick together?

    39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
    and satisfy the hunger of the lions
    40 when they crouch in their dens
    or lie in wait in a thicket?
    41 Who provides food for the raven
    when its young cry out to God
    and wander about for lack of food?

    Humans need to teach higher primates to use sign language, it don't evolve by itself by magic. I wonder who taught Humans to speak the first language or sign in the first place?

    3) And many animals according to the THEORY of evolution have been here on earth much longer than humans.
    The length of time on the planet does not determine the direction of evolution. Some species like sharks evolve to a very stable (optimal) form that doesn't change for millions of years. It depends upon many facts, such as environmental pressures, competition with other animals, and the possible pathways given the animals evolutionary history.
    Fine and there are mammals that suddenly appeared and took over from the dinosaurs; funny sharks survived and dinosaurs died out?

    As for THEORY: I'm sorry to see that you don't understand the meaning of that word when used in a scientific context. Have you ever heard of the THEORY OF GRAVITY? Is it "just a theory" like evolution?
    Nobody knows what Gravity is and how it is formed, it is the most mysterious force in the universe or.... do you know? Scientist speculated over gravitron and its existence is not confirmed; it is still a theory until confirmed.

    4) there are remnants of a single language among the world's languages that seem to suggest there was once a common world language.
    Yes, that is true. Some scientists think they have evidence showing that all languages EVOLVED from a single language over thousands of years. Obviously, this scientific theory has nothing to do with the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel when God supposedly confused languages all at once. The fact that you appeal to this theory to support the Biblical myth demonstrates that you don't understand what you are talking about. You are just grabbing bits and pieces of science, while rejecting the rest, to prop up Bible stories. Don't you realize that no one, not one person, who understands science will be convinced by such arguments
    ?
    Well, what can I say when someone's motto is, "Science is God. In Science We Trust, in God Not Much".


    Praise God Aleluia. Amen.
    Last edited by CWH; 07-31-2011 at 09:51 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I am disappointed that some people have degraded themselves to such a state that now Science is their God! They are in my prayers... Human scientific knowledge is full of holes and imperfect. They may solve a problem but creates much more problems....just look at nuclear fission reactors and cars! It's not that I don't trust Science but that Science without God is imperfect.
    Cheow,

    Have you gone insane? I don't think that Science is God! I've never said anything that could possibly be interpreted that way. You are like someone who claims that 1 + 2 = 17, and I say that you don't know anything about Mathematics, and you reply that I think "Mathematics is God." It's just plain nuts.

    Everyone knows that Science has "holes" and is "imperfect" - that has nothing to do with anything I have written. And the fact that we might sometimes cause more problems by our choices means nothing because that can happen anytime we make a choice about anything. Look at all the problems caused by belief in religion! Members of one religion kill members of another religion.

    And I wasn't talking about your failure to TRUST science, I was talking about your failure to UNDERSTAND science. You don't let yourself understand anything I wrote because if you admit you understood, then you would not be able hide from truth and reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Then who started it? You answer will be Nobody, it just happens by chance...somehow ability in communication in languages just started and evolvedby itself by magic.
    Evolution is not "chance." Your statement indicates yet again you have no idea what you are talking about. How is it that a 21st century man like you could fail to have any knowledge about a well-established science like evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    How I wish to be evolved to be able to fly like a bird! What factors caused such different abilities? By chance or by intelligence? Haven't you read Job 38 and try to answer those questions? (I guess your answer is, "It just happened naturally and evolved"):
    And again, your comment indicates that you don't know what you are talking about. How many books have you read that explain evolution? NONE? Brilliant Cheow. That means that you are like a person who can't add or subtract, but who pontificates about the falsehood of Calculus. Why do you do such foolishness in public? Aren't you embarrassed?

    Humans need to teach higher primates to use sign language, it don't evolve by itself by magic. I wonder who taught Humans to speak the first language or sign in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Nobody knows what Gravity is and how it is formed, it is the most mysterious force in the universe or.... do you know? Scientist speculated over gravitron and its existence is not confirmed; it is still a theory until confirmed.
    Yes, the theory of how gravity works is not confirmed in every detail. But much of it is, and nobody who knows anything would reject gravity because the "Theory of Gravity" might be refined over time. The same thing goes for evolution. But you don't understand that. And it seems it doesn't matter how many times it is explained to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Well, what can I say when someone's motto is, "Science is God. In Science We Trust, in God Not Much".
    What can you say? Well, you could begin by apologizing for making more false and absurd assertions about me having the motto "Science is God."

    And as for trusting science over God - consider this. For thousands of years God was perfectly happy to let his people die horrible deaths from easily preventable diseases. It didn't matter how much they begged him to save them. He let them die without doing anything for them. He "acted" as if he did not exist at all. Then, when we "sinful humans" invented science, we saved millions of lives that God was happy to let die. So any sane person would have very good reason to "trust" science over God. When the sick trust God they die. When they trust science, they live. Pretty simple stuff.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  6. #6
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Cheow,

    Have you gone insane? I don't think that Science is God! I've never said anything that could possibly be interpreted that way. You are like someone who claims that 1 + 2 = 17, and I say that you don't know anything about Mathematics, and you reply that I think "Mathematics is God." It's just plain nuts.

    Everyone knows that Science has "holes" and is "imperfect" - that has nothing to do with anything I have written. And the fact that we might sometimes cause more problems by our choices means nothing because that can happen anytime we make a choice about anything. Look at all the problems caused by belief in religion! Members of one religion kill members of another religion.

    And I wasn't talking about your failure to TRUST science, I was talking about your failure to UNDERSTAND science. You don't let yourself understand anything I wrote because if you admit you understood, then you would not be able hide from truth and reality.
    I am no madman. I don't bother what bad things people said about me if what I said is in support of God,...my reward is great in heaven. I don't boast about myself or about others, I boast about God. I detest people who says bad things about God:

    Matthew 5:11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


    Evolution is not "chance." Your statement indicates yet again you have no idea what you are talking about. How is it that a 21st century man like you could fail to have any knowledge about a well-established science like evolution?
    Evolution of species is bullshit. Show me any animal or living thing that have evolved naturally without human intervention. You can't because there is none. Dogs will be dogs and cats will be cats regardless of breeding, it's as simple as that.

    And again, your comment indicates that you don't know what you are talking about. How many books have you read that explain evolution? NONE? Brilliant Cheow. That means that you are like a person who can't add or subtract, but who pontificates about the falsehood of Calculus. Why do you do such foolishness in public? Aren't you embarrassed?
    I standby my ernest support of God as the creator of all. Saying bad things against me who supports God will only gives me more rewards in heaven.

    Humans need to teach higher primates to use sign language, it don't evolve by itself by magic. I wonder who taught Humans to speak the first language or sign in the first place?


    Yes, the theory of how gravity works is not confirmed in every detail. But much of it is, and nobody who knows anything would reject gravity because the "Theory of Gravity" might be refined over time. The same thing goes for evolution. But you don't understand that. And it seems it doesn't matter how many times it is explained to you.
    If something is not or has not been confirm in every detail such as gravity and evolution is as good as speculation, then why belief as if it is nothing but the truth? It is the same as one who believe UFO and Ghost as truth since they also have not been confirmed in every detail.


    What can you say? Well, you could begin by apologizing for making more false and absurd assertions about me having the motto "Science is God."

    And as for trusting science over God - consider this. For thousands of years God was perfectly happy to let his people die horrible deaths from easily preventable diseases. It didn't matter how much they begged him to save them. He let them die without doing anything for them. He "acted" as if he did not exist at all. Then, when we "sinful humans" invented science, we saved millions of lives that God was happy to let die. So any sane person would have very good reason to "trust" science over God. When the sick trust God they die. When they trust science, they live. Pretty simple stuff.
    And for thousand of years man have been waiting for God for the answers. Even if God did not intervene, humans would still die anyway naturally and from their sinful nature...."For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". It means only through God's grace that humans can be saved. I believe God did not intervene because the time is still not ripe for salvation:

    He set another parable before them, saying,
    "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field,
    but while people slept,
    his enemy came and sowed darnel also among the wheat, and went away.
    But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then the darnel appeared also.

    The servants of the householder came and said to him,
    ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field?
    Where did this darnel come from?’
    "He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’
    "The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and gather them up?’
    "But he said, ‘No, lest perhaps while you gather up the darnel,
    you root up the wheat with them.
    Let both grow together until the harvest,
    and in the harvest time I will tell the reapers,



    "First, gather up the darnel, and bind them in bundles to burn them;
    but gather the wheat into my barn."‘"



    Lord, Gather us your wheat, Amen.
    Last edited by CWH; 08-01-2011 at 06:28 AM.
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    Seek and You shall find,
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Cheow,

    Have you gone insane? I don't think that Science is God! I've never said anything that could possibly be interpreted that way. You are like someone who claims that 1 + 2 = 17, and I say that you don't know anything about Mathematics, and you reply that I think "Mathematics is God." It's just plain nuts.
    I am no madman. I don't bother what bad things people said about me if what I said is in support of God,...my reward is great in heaven. I don't boast about myself or about others, I boast about God. I detest people who says bad things about God:
    Sorry Cheow, but do you really think God will reward you for stating falsehoods and absurdities? Your "zeal" for God has made you act in a way that God hates. You comments are false, absurd, and ungodly. You really need to start using your BRAIN for a change. And claiming that you are suffering persecution for Christ only adds to your sins.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Evolution is not "chance." Your statement indicates yet again you have no idea what you are talking about. How is it that a 21st century man like you could fail to have any knowledge about a well-established science like evolution?
    Evolution of species is bullshit. Show me any animal or living thing that have evolved naturally without human intervention. You can't because there is none. Dogs will be dogs and cats will be cats regardless of breeding, it's as simple as that.
    Using strong language only accentuates the stupidity and ignorance of your comment. It is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. No evolutionary scientist has ever said that cats will become dogs. You know nothing of the science of evolution, so your assertion that it is "bullshit" is itself bullshit.

    I asked how many books on evolution you have read, and you did not answer. I will take that as a confirmation of what I already suspected. You have never read a single book on evolution, you know nothing of evolutionary science, and yet you reject the work of untold THOUSANDS of highly intelligent scientists as "bullshit." Now you want to hear the punchline? Scientists use DNA evidence to show that all plants and animals have descended from a common ancestor. It is the same DNA evidence used in courts to establish innocence or guilt. People are set free or executed depending on this evidence. And you are ignorant of it all, but you reject it absolutely as if you had real knowledge? That's just plain nuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    And again, your comment indicates that you don't know what you are talking about. How many books have you read that explain evolution? NONE? Brilliant Cheow. That means that you are like a person who can't add or subtract, but who pontificates about the falsehood of Calculus. Why do you do such foolishness in public? Aren't you embarrassed?
    I standby my ernest support of God as the creator of all. Saying bad things against me who supports God will only gives me more rewards in heaven.
    You are not giving any "support of God as creator of all" when you deny reality. Sorry, that's just the way things work. You ignorant rejection of evolution no more supports God than when the Catholics attacked Galileo as a heretic for asserting that the earth's rotates around the sun. And speaking of Catholics, they accept evolution as a scientific fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Humans need to teach higher primates to use sign language, it don't evolve by itself by magic. I wonder who taught Humans to speak the first language or sign in the first place?
    "Evolve by magic?" Nobody suggested any such thing. Again, you fail to understand the argument. It matters not if humans had to teach the language. The fact that they could learn it tells us a lot about the evolution of language. If they have the ability to learn it, then their brains are more advanced than the animals that don't have that ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Yes, the theory of how gravity works is not confirmed in every detail. But much of it is, and nobody who knows anything would reject gravity because the "Theory of Gravity" might be refined over time. The same thing goes for evolution. But you don't understand that. And it seems it doesn't matter how many times it is explained to you.
    If something is not or has not been confirm in every detail such as gravity and evolution is as good as speculation, then why belief as if it is nothing but the truth? It is the same as one who believe UFO and Ghost as truth since they also have not been confirmed in every detail.
    That's just plain nuts Cheow. The fact that science is always in a state of incompleteness does not mean that it is "as good as speculation." We put men on the moon using "incomplete" science. Your statements are truly absurd.

    And tell me this, why don't you reject the Bible if your standard for truth is so high? Talk about something that's incomplete and speculative! Ha! Just look at how devout Christians can't agree on anything. You don't see any scientists madly debating the value of the gravitational constant or the basic laws of electromagnetism. Modern science is confirmed as true a thousand times more strongly than anything in the Bible. This proves that your "balance" is false, and a false balance is an abomination to the Lord, as it is written:
    Proverbs 11:1 A False balance is an abomination to the LORD, But a just weight is His delight.
    You would do well to consider your ways Cheow. You do not please God by making false statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    What can you say? Well, you could begin by apologizing for making more false and absurd assertions about me having the motto "Science is God."

    And as for trusting science over God - consider this. For thousands of years God was perfectly happy to let his people die horrible deaths from easily preventable diseases. It didn't matter how much they begged him to save them. He let them die without doing anything for them. He "acted" as if he did not exist at all. Then, when we "sinful humans" invented science, we saved millions of lives that God was happy to let die. So any sane person would have very good reason to "trust" science over God. When the sick trust God they die. When they trust science, they live. Pretty simple stuff.
    And for thousand of years man have been waiting for God for the answers. Even if God did not intervene, humans would still die anyway naturally and from their sinful nature...."For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". It means only through God's grace that humans can be saved. I believe God did not intervene because the time is still not ripe for salvation:
    You missed the point yet again. It has nothing to do with the fact that all people will eventually die, and it has nothing to do with ultimate salvation when "the time" would be ripe. My POINT was that God refused to answer the prayers of people when they were suffering and dying of diseases that are easily treated with antibiotics. Why do I have to repeat something so obvious? Don't you understand anything? When you ignore the main point of an argument, everyone reading will laugh at how stupid Christians look. I think it's great that you want to support your beliefs, but it is painful to watch you make a fool of yourself by ignoring the points that you can't refute. If you can't refute a point, the only honorable thing to do is to admit that you cannot, at this time, refute that point, and that you will get back to it or whatever. But to simply ignore it as if you didn't even see it? That makes you look foolish, and does not help you in our effort to "support God as creator of all."
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #8
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Sorry Cheow, but do you really think God will reward you for stating falsehoods and absurdities? Your "zeal" for God has made you act in a way that God hates. You comments are false, absurd, and ungodly. You really need to start using your BRAIN for a change. And claiming that you are suffering persecution for Christ only adds to your sins.
    Oh, thank you so much. I can see heavenly rewards piling up.


    Using strong language only accentuates the stupidity and ignorance of your comment. It is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. No evolutionary scientist has ever said that cats will become dogs. You know nothing of the science of evolution, so your assertion that it is "bullshit" is itself bullshit.
    Just show me any living things that proved Evolution.....just one will do. BTW, the THEORY of evolution is getting out of date, some people are moving towards the concept of Intelligent Design. Evolution itself cannot produce such things as DNA, and the human brain, it is just too complex. What is it that produce the Intelligence in evolution? It's like saying what intelligence is used in creating smart phones?...certainly not evolution. I wonder who created intelligence in the first place?...the knowledge of good and evil?

    http://atomicbombeffects.com/is-evol...theory_169.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design


    I asked how many books on evolution you have read, and you did not answer. I will take that as a confirmation of what I already suspected. You have never read a single book on evolution, you know nothing of evolutionary science, and yet you reject the work of untold THOUSANDS of highly intelligent scientists as "bullshit." Now you want to hear the punchline? Scientists use DNA evidence to show that all plants and animals have descended from a common ancestor. It is the same DNA evidence used in courts to establish innocence or guilt. People are set free or executed depending on this evidence. And you are ignorant of it all, but you reject it absolutely as if you had real knowledge? That's just plain nuts.
    Oh, Thanks again...rewards piling up. Let me remind that there are also THOUSANDS perhaps MILLIONS of highly intelligent pastors and Christians who believe the Bible to be the Words of God and have written books on them. Are you judging their intelligence?

    I wonder how DNA was formed by evolution? Show me proof. No proof is as good as speculation. Did Jesus read lots of books which gave Him scriptural knowledge, healing powers? No, even the Pharisees were surprised. There are many ways to gain knowledge such as studying nature, reading the internet, news etc. and not necessary by books.

    Matthew 13:53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him.


    You are not giving any "support of God as creator of all" when you deny reality. Sorry, that's just the way things work. You ignorant rejection of evolution no more supports God than when the Catholics attacked Galileo as a heretic for asserting that the earth's rotates around the sun. And speaking of Catholics, they accept evolution as a scientific fact.
    Evolution theory is just a theory short of speculation. You are out-dated, the current debate is Evolution vs Intelligent Design vs Creation.


    "Evolve by magic?" Nobody suggested any such thing. Again, you fail to understand the argument. It matters not if humans had to teach the language. The fact that they could learn it tells us a lot about the evolution of language. If they have the ability to learn it, then their brains are more advanced than the animals that don't have that ability.
    I wonder what created intelligent brain in the first place? And Human brain is far better than the best computer in the world.

    That's just plain nuts Cheow. The fact that science is always in a state of incompleteness does not mean that it is "as good as speculation." We put men on the moon using "incomplete" science. Your statements are truly absurd.
    Thanks again....It proves the fact that all human science is imperfect and incomplete; God's knowledge is superior for His ways and thoughts are higher than ours.

    And tell me this, why don't you reject the Bible if your standard for truth is so high? Talk about something that's incomplete and speculative! Ha! Just look at how devout Christians can't agree on anything. You don't see any scientists madly debating the value of the gravitational constant or the basic laws of electromagnetism. Modern science is confirmed as true a thousand times more strongly than anything in the Bible. This proves that your "balance" is false, and a false balance is an abomination to the Lord, as it is written:
    Proverbs 11:1 A False balance is an abomination to the LORD, But a just weight is His delight.
    You would do well to consider your ways Cheow. You do not please God by making false statements.
    Thanks again....Neither do scientists agree on many of their theories and it is a good thing as it helps them to further research for the truth and refine on their theories.... same with many devout Christians.

    You missed the point yet again. It has nothing to do with the fact that all people will eventually die, and it has nothing to do with ultimate salvation when "the time" would be ripe. My POINT was that God refused to answer the prayers of people when they were suffering and dying of diseases that are easily treated with antibiotics. Why do I have to repeat something so obvious? Don't you understand anything? When you ignore the main point of an argument, everyone reading will laugh at how stupid Christians look. I think it's great that you want to support your beliefs, but it is painful to watch you make a fool of yourself by ignoring the points that you can't refute. If you can't refute a point, the only honorable thing to do is to admit that you cannot, at this time, refute that point, and that you will get back to it or whatever. But to simply ignore it as if you didn't even see it? That makes you look foolish, and does not help you in our effort to "support God as creator of all."
    Thanks again.... it pains me to see people ignoring the Words of God. I am saying out of brotherly concern. You think antibiotic is a miracle drug? Think again... the germs are getting more resistant and "intelligent" that soon no antibiotic will be able to fight them, thanks to so call evolution. Luckily, when the germs are away from the antibiotic environment for sometime, they loses their resistance and revert back to their original self, thanks to evolution again.

    Know what this passage means:
    Matthew 12:43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.


    May the WISDOM OF GOD abounds in us. AMEN
    Last edited by CWH; 08-01-2011 at 10:58 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Sorry Cheow, but do you really think God will reward you for stating falsehoods and absurdities? Your "zeal" for God has made you act in a way that God hates. You comments are false, absurd, and ungodly. You really need to start using your BRAIN for a change. And claiming that you are suffering persecution for Christ only adds to your sins.
    Oh, thank you so much. I can see heavenly rewards piling up.
    OK, OK, I get it. Words mean nothing to you. Truth means nothing to you. God means nothing to you. This is all just a game. I got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Using strong language only accentuates the stupidity and ignorance of your comment. It is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. No evolutionary scientist has ever said that cats will become dogs. You know nothing of the science of evolution, so your assertion that it is "bullshit" is itself bullshit.
    Just show me any living things that proved Evolution.....just one will do. BTW, the THEORY of evolution is getting out of date, some people are moving towards the concept of Intelligent Design. Evolution itself cannot produce such things as DNA, and the human brain, it is just too complex. What is it that produce the Intelligence in evolution? It's like saying what intelligence is used in creating smart phones?...certainly not evolution. I wonder who created intelligence in the first place?...the knowledge of good and evil?
    Truth is such that only those who love it can find it. It won't help for me to continue to repeat myself. Your assertion that "the THEORY of evolution is getting out of date" is both false and absurd. The fact that the theory itself is continuing to evolve is the fundamental characteristic of any robust scientific theory. The idea of "Intelligent Design" is not itself a scientific theory, so it presents no threat of any kind to evolution. It certainly is not making it "out of date." You like the sound of "intelligent Design" because it sounds "intelligent" and "scientific" but it is neither, and you don't know anything about it or about science, and it's very silly for you to continue making claims about things you do not know. You need to get yourself informed, and then you will know what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I asked how many books on evolution you have read, and you did not answer. I will take that as a confirmation of what I already suspected. You have never read a single book on evolution, you know nothing of evolutionary science, and yet you reject the work of untold THOUSANDS of highly intelligent scientists as "bullshit." Now you want to hear the punchline? Scientists use DNA evidence to show that all plants and animals have descended from a common ancestor. It is the same DNA evidence used in courts to establish innocence or guilt. People are set free or executed depending on this evidence. And you are ignorant of it all, but you reject it absolutely as if you had real knowledge? That's just plain nuts.
    Oh, Thanks again...rewards piling up. Let me remind that there are also THOUSANDS perhaps MILLIONS of highly intelligent pastors and Christians who believe the Bible to be the Words of God and have written books on them. Are you judging their intelligence?
    So you think you God will reward you for your ignorance and false statements? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Look at all the red bold words I highlighted. You know you are ignorant, and yet you persist in saying things are false. And then you claim that God will reward you for speaking ignorant falsehoods? Come on Cheow. This joke is getting pretty pathetic. You are making yourself, and other Christians like you, look like fools. Why don't you understand this?

    You asked if I am judging the intelligence of Christian apologists who have written books. My answer is simple: YES! I have read many of their books and have concluded, with strong evidence, that their arguments are very weak, stupid, and frequently absurd. It is also absurd for you to compare Christian apologetics with science since unlike science, they have no standards by which to test for truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I wonder how DNA was formed by evolution? Show me proof. No proof is as good as speculation.
    I have repeatedly stated that the origin of DNA is one of the most difficult of the unsolved problems in science. But that has nothing to do with the question of evolution per se, which deals with how species evolved from a common ancestor. Suppose, for example, that God created the first living cell that then evolved into all species. This would change NOTHING about the theory of evolution. And it also would not help prove Christianity, because the Bible does not say that everything evolved from a single cell that was created by God.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Did Jesus read lots of books which gave Him scriptural knowledge, healing powers? No, even the Pharisees were surprised. There are many ways to gain knowledge such as studying nature, reading the internet, news etc. and not necessary by books.
    You aren't Jesus. You have not received any knowledge about evolution from God. You don't know anything about the established science of evolution, but you "bullshit" and then claim that God will reward you in heaven for making ignorant statements? And now you claim that you don't need to read science books because Jesus had supernatural knowledge? Can't you see how crazy your comments are becoming?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    You are not giving any "support of God as creator of all" when you deny reality. Sorry, that's just the way things work. You ignorant rejection of evolution no more supports God than when the Catholics attacked Galileo as a heretic for asserting that the earth's rotates around the sun. And speaking of Catholics, they accept evolution as a scientific fact.
    Evolution theory is just a theory short of speculation. You are out-dated, the current debate is Evolution vs Intelligent Design vs Creation.
    The fact that there are "Intelligent Design Creationists" and other "Creationists" who reject Science does not mean that there is a legitimate scientific debate going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I wonder what created intelligent brain in the first place? And Human brain is far better than the best computer in the world.
    Brains evolve. Just look at an ant. It doesn't have much of a brain, and it's not very intelligent. Then look at a mouse. It has a bigger brain and is more intelligent. Then look at monkeys ... etc. Why do I have to explain such basic facts? You can look for yourself and see the correlation between brain complexity and evolution. Very simple stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    You missed the point yet again. It has nothing to do with the fact that all people will eventually die, and it has nothing to do with ultimate salvation when "the time" would be ripe. My POINT was that God refused to answer the prayers of people when they were suffering and dying of diseases that are easily treated with antibiotics. Why do I have to repeat something so obvious? Don't you understand anything? When you ignore the main point of an argument, everyone reading will laugh at how stupid Christians look. I think it's great that you want to support your beliefs, but it is painful to watch you make a fool of yourself by ignoring the points that you can't refute. If you can't refute a point, the only honorable thing to do is to admit that you cannot, at this time, refute that point, and that you will get back to it or whatever. But to simply ignore it as if you didn't even see it? That makes you look foolish, and does not help you in our effort to "support God as creator of all."
    Thanks again.... it pains me to see people ignoring the Words of God. I am saying out of brotherly concern. You think antibiotic is a miracle drug? Think again... the germs are getting more resistant and "intelligent" that soon no antibiotic will be able to fight them, thanks to so call evolution. Luckily, when the germs are away from the antibiotic environment for sometime, they loses their resistance and revert back to their original self, thanks to evolution again.
    So now you admit evolution is a fact?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    OK, OK, I get it. Words mean nothing to you. Truth means nothing to you. God means nothing to you. This is all just a game. I got it.


    Truth is such that only those who love it can find it. It won't help for me to continue to repeat myself. Your assertion that "the THEORY of evolution is getting out of date" is both false and absurd. The fact that the theory itself is continuing to evolve is the fundamental characteristic of any robust scientific theory. The idea of "Intelligent Design" is not itself a scientific theory, so it presents no threat of any kind to evolution. It certainly is not making it "out of date." You like the sound of "intelligent Design" because it sounds "intelligent" and "scientific" but it is neither, and you don't know anything about it or about science, and it's very silly for you to continue making claims about things you do not know. You need to get yourself informed, and then you will know what you are talking about.


    So you think you God will reward you for your ignorance and false statements? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Look at all the red bold words I highlighted. You know you are ignorant, and yet you persist in saying things are false. And then you claim that God will reward you for speaking ignorant falsehoods? Come on Cheow. This joke is getting pretty pathetic. You are making yourself, and other Christians like you, look like fools. Why don't you understand this?

    You asked if I am judging the intelligence of Christian apologists who have written books. My answer is simple: YES! I have read many of their books and have concluded, with strong evidence, that their arguments are very weak, stupid, and frequently absurd. It is also absurd for you to compare Christian apologetics with science since unlike science, they have no standards by which to test for truth.


    I have repeatedly stated that the origin of DNA is one of the most difficult of the unsolved problems in science. But that has nothing to do with the question of evolution per se, which deals with how species evolved from a common ancestor. Suppose, for example, that God created the first living cell that then evolved into all species. This would change NOTHING about the theory of evolution. And it also would not help prove Christianity, because the Bible does not say that everything evolved from a single cell that was created by God.


    You aren't Jesus. You have not received any knowledge about evolution from God. You don't know anything about the established science of evolution, but you "bullshit" and then claim that God will reward you in heaven for making ignorant statements? And now you claim that you don't need to read science books because Jesus had supernatural knowledge? Can't you see how crazy your comments are becoming?


    The fact that there are "Intelligent Design Creationists" and other "Creationists" who reject Science does not mean that there is a legitimate scientific debate going on.


    Brains evolve. Just look at an ant. It doesn't have much of a brain, and it's not very intelligent. Then look at a mouse. It has a bigger brain and is more intelligent. Then look at monkeys ... etc. Why do I have to explain such basic facts? You can look for yourself and see the correlation between brain complexity and evolution. Very simple stuff.


    So now you admit evolution is a fact?
    I have never admitted evolution as a fact but as a bullshit. I have asked for proof of evolution but none was given. Evolution will continue as a theory and not a fact until proven and all doubts refuted. Brain does not evolve or our human brain will grow bigger and bigger until it cannot hold it's weight. Brain size does not dictate intelligence; dolphins and elephants brain are bigger than human yet they are no more intelligent than humans. I personally believe intelligence is related to the ability to know good and evil which no animals have except humans. BTW, the debate between Evolution, Intelligent Design and Creation continues show that somethings are just not right with the theory of evolution.

    In fact, the concept of survival of the fittest can have negative impact. I suspect Hitler used such concept to propose his Germanic Super-race who he believed would ultimately dominate the world and thus his dream to conquer Europe and then the whole world.

    I am sorry that this thread have been side-tracked into a debate for Evolution vs Creation vs Intelligent Design; it was supposed to be Fun and Light-hearted. Perhaps, RAM can put these discussion into a new thread as I do hope others beside me and RAM can participate in this debate.

    BTW, what is Truth? Obviously, not human science.


    Jesus said, "I am the Truth, the Way and the Life". Amen.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

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