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  1. #51
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    The Male Bias of the Bible

    Hello Rose,

    I've wanted to comment on this topic for a while, but I don't have much to say. Your last reply to Rick gives me a platform to share some thoughts.

    I'm speaking as one whom it's taken God years to tame, so please don't imagine I'm a goodie-goodie girly girl. But I desire deeply to become pleasing to God. So, I've had to change! I'm very fond of the quip, 'I was quite willing to compromise, but God wanted things all His own way'.

    I'm not saying women are more righteous, or holy than men, rather that the Bible is obviously written from a totally male perspective,
    I do not find it so. The feminist perspective you offer boils down to the views of fallen females reflecting upon the (undoubted) flaws of fallen males. But, there is God-ordained order laid out in scripture, which, if the men - who are rightly related to God - carry it through as they should, allow women to blossom to full potential and more, without any hint of condescension or inequality, or, lack of mutual respect.

    so naturally it going to be slanted and skewed towards the male.
    Hmm. A man might not see it that way! He might think God is getting at him, if he reads scripture properly! Men have nothing to thank Adam for. I've even heard a preacher say he is 'embarrassed' to have been so let down by another man. (My paraphrase.) Do you know any men who feel that way?

    Everywhere one looks in Scripture women are treated as property and given far fewer rights than men,
    The married woman is one flesh with her husband. She has rights, privileges and responsibilities, and although the Bible doesn't make a big deal of them when they are not kept (by the man), God notices every single one of his neglects and misdemeanours. When Jesus came, He held men responsible for their attitudes and assumptions.

    I don't see a disadvantaged woman in Proverbs 31.

    10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies. 11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. 12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. 13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. 14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar. 15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. 16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. {buyeth: Heb. taketh} 17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. 18 She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night. {She...: Heb. She tasteth} 19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. 20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. {She...: Heb. She spreadeth} 21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household [are] clothed with scarlet. {scarlet: or, double garments} 22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing [is] silk and purple. 23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. 24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth [it]; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. 25 Strength and honour [are] her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. 26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue [is] the law of kindness. 27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. 28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband [also], and he praiseth her. 29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. {have...: or, have gotten riches}

    30 Favour [is] deceitful, and beauty [is] vain: [but] a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. 31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.


    this is just an undeniable fact, which is in keeping with my premise that the Bible was written by men who formed god in the likeness of their own image.
    Possibly, just possibly, it is you who have formed God in own imagination, choosing an image you disapprove. Couldn't you just as easily make a God can approve? But in the end, your opinion of Him - whichever way it goes, doesn't change Him. (God might believe He has been yielding enough, in sending Jesus to pay for our sin.)

    It is common knowledge that men in particular think God is like their natural father. I suspect women do the same - equally unintentionally. It's not that we don't want relationship with God, it's just that we assume He's like someone bad we already knew, and that triggers a whole waterfall of reactions on our part, before we have honoured God with our undivided attention, and listened for His voice.

    My firm opinion is: that man has fallen so far from being 'like God', (Who do you know who is anything 'like' Jesus?) - that we cannot begin to imagine the honour, generosity and freely-given love, which God bestows upon those who find Him. As the old hymn says -

    Thy truth unchanged hath ever stood;
    Thou savest those that on Thee call;
    To them that seek Thee Thou art good,
    To them that find Thee all in all.


    There isn't a soul on earth - male or female - who hasn't had to revise their views about something, to come into peace with God.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Richard,

    No, what I meant with David is that what was sowed by his unrighteousness was his "reprimand", just like it is with all of us.

    Seems that Absalom lost respect for his father and events just carried on from there.

    The book of Proverbs in many ways is a book that describes the sowing and reaping of many things.
    And we are counseled over and over to get wisdom, attend to His words, keep our heart with all diligence, etc, etc.

    We also see a God of mercy in the OT towards the broken and contrite (He will not despise).

    God always knows all the facts of why something happened in someone's life. When we look at the whole counsel of God we begin to understand man's ways and God's ways, too. The contrast is stark.

    More later, I'm sure.
    Rick
    Good morning Rick,

    That's pretty much what I thought you might say, but now we've completely diverged from the idea that there is any kind of "reprimand" coming from God at all. It seems like you are now saying that there is some sort of "natural moral law" wherein sin is "reprimanded" without any intentional or intelligent action from God at all. The problem with this view is that we all know that people often avoid any consequence of sin in this life.

    Your initial response to Rose was that "God does not 'reprimand' everyone as soon as they transgress (like Mother Superior)." And then you gave the example of the destruction of David's family life, but now you say it wasn't a "reprimand" from God at all but a natural consequence of David's sin. Do you see the inconsistency here? Does God reprimand people or not? And how do we distinguish between God's chastisement, an attack from the Devil, natural moral consequences, and plain old bad luck?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Another glaring example of the extreme male bias of the Bible is found in the story of the destruction of Sodom. When Lot offers up his two daughters to be raped by the angry mob of men, who have come for the two angels who are under his roof, Lot is not even slightly reprimanded...

    Gen.19:5-8 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.


    but, when Lot's wife looks back, she is turned into a pillar of salt... Seems a bit imbalanced to me...

    Gen.19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.


    Rose
    Before we could understand the passage that you mentioned, we should ask ourselves the following questions:

    1. Why didn't Lot offered his sons or other young men instead to these perverted homosexuals?
    2. Why didn't Lot offered his wives and other married daughters to these men for sex?
    3, Would offering his virgin daughters to these homosexuals changed their minds knowing they are so perverted?
    4. Why were Lot's daughter still virgins in that sex-crazed world of Lot?
    5. Why were those men in Lot's time seemed so disinterested at the offer of virgins? This s very strange from the normal men's point of view.
    6. Why were those men so keen on having sex with angels?

    This is my understanding of the passage which I will answer to the questions I posted :
    1 & 2. Lot was a kind and righteous man, offering men and married women and his wives for sex is an abomination to God. Those men were already sinful from their homosexual perversions and offering men, married women and wives will only increased their sins. Better from the righteousness point of view to offer them virgins rather than encouraging them deeper into sin from sex with angels.
    3. Perverted homosexual men are not interested in women even if they are virgins; this showed how perverted they were. Lot understood that since he had been living with them for decades knowing that no harm would be done to his virgin daughters even if he offered them.
    4. That answers why the men were not interested in Lot's virgin daughters....Advanced perversion! In a normal sex crazed perverted world. those virgins would have already been raped!
    5. Advanced homosexual perversion!
    6. They believed that sex with angels (homosexual or heterosexual) will give then eternal life or life full of blessings or a sign that they have dominion over God and his angels based on traditional belief.

    I would like to ask a hypothetical question:
    Will you subject yourself to be raped by men with the promise from your assailants that your children and loved ones will not be killed or harmed? Will others view it as a heroic act of self-sacrifice to save your loved ones? Is this act morally right? If so, was that what Lot was thinking when he offered his virgin daughters? Will God forgive such unselfish act?......

    May God blessed us His wisdom!
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hello Rose,

    I've wanted to comment on this topic for a while, but I don't have much to say. Your last reply to Rick gives me a platform to share some thoughts.

    I'm speaking as one whom it's taken God years to tame, so please don't imagine I'm a goodie-goodie girly girl. But I desire deeply to become pleasing to God. So, I've had to change! I'm very fond of the quip, 'I was quite willing to compromise, but God wanted things all His own way'.

    I do not find it so. The feminist perspective you offer boils down to the views of fallen females reflecting upon the (undoubted) flaws of fallen males. But, there is God-ordained order laid out in scripture, which, if the men - who are rightly related to God - carry it through as they should, allow women to blossom to full potential and more, without any hint of condescension or inequality, or, lack of mutual respect.

    Hmm. A man might not see it that way! He might think God is getting at him, if he reads scripture properly! Men have nothing to thank Adam for. I've even heard a preacher say he is 'embarrassed' to have been so let down by another man. (My paraphrase.) Do you know any men who feel that way?

    The married woman is one flesh with her husband. She has rights, privileges and responsibilities, and although the Bible doesn't make a big deal of them when they are not kept (by the man), God notices every single one of his neglects and misdemeanours. When Jesus came, He held men responsible for their attitudes and assumptions.

    I don't see a disadvantaged woman in Proverbs 31.

    10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies. 11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. 12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. 13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. 14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar. 15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. 16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. {buyeth: Heb. taketh} 17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. 18 She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night. {She...: Heb. She tasteth} 19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. 20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. {She...: Heb. She spreadeth} 21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household [are] clothed with scarlet. {scarlet: or, double garments} 22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing [is] silk and purple. 23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. 24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth [it]; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. 25 Strength and honour [are] her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. 26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue [is] the law of kindness. 27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. 28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband [also], and he praiseth her. 29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. {have...: or, have gotten riches}

    30 Favour [is] deceitful, and beauty [is] vain: [but] a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. 31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.
    Hi Charisma,

    It's nice to be talking with another woman on this thread...

    First off I will reiterate again that my term "male bias" referrers to the perspective from which the Bible was written. The Bible was written by men, consequently what they wrote down was from a male point of view in much the same way a book that is written by a woman would have a feminine perspective. Men can't think like women and visa/versa.

    I was a Christian for 25 years, so I am well aware of trying to deal with the "woman problem" in the Bible. I've tried many creative solutions to get around the male bias, but there are certain problems that there is no getting around if one is to keep the Bible intact as the inspired word of God. The bottom line is, the Bible was written by fallible men who portrayed a god within its pages that thought and acted like a misogynistic man.

    Proverbs 31 was of course one of my favorite passages, but it only put "salt in the wound" so to speak, because the rest of the Bible does not support what Proverbs 31 speaks of...women in the Bible did not have a free hand at running their households, because they were considered the property of men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Possibly, just possibly, it is you who have formed God in own imagination, choosing an image you disapprove. Couldn't you just as easily make a God can approve? But in the end, your opinion of Him - whichever way it goes, doesn't change Him. (God might believe He has been yielding enough, in sending Jesus to pay for our sin.)

    It is common knowledge that men in particular think God is like their natural father. I suspect women do the same - equally unintentionally. It's not that we don't want relationship with God, it's just that we assume He's like someone bad we already knew, and that triggers a whole waterfall of reactions on our part, before we have honoured God with our undivided attention, and listened for His voice.

    My firm opinion is: that man has fallen so far from being 'like God', (Who do you know who is anything 'like' Jesus?) - that we cannot begin to imagine the honour, generosity and freely-given love, which God bestows upon those who find Him. As the old hymn says -

    Thy truth unchanged hath ever stood;
    Thou savest those that on Thee call;
    To them that seek Thee Thou art good,
    To them that find Thee all in all.


    There isn't a soul on earth - male or female - who hasn't had to revise their views about something, to come into peace with God.
    You are right! I did form God in my image, which meant I was constantly confronted with the dilemma of my morals being better than God's Time and time again, if I read Scripture the way it was written I would be stopped in my tracks, because how could I be better than God?

    Jesus was indeed unlike any other character in the Bible as far as his views on the equality of women, but the sad thing is that most of the church fathers did not pick up on his teachings in that area. Instead, they focused on the writing's of Paul and the other apostles who promoted subjugation of women. All in all the Bible has not done women any favors in the area of equal rights, instead it has made it harder for women gain rights that the Bible speaks against.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Charisma,

    It's nice to be talking with another woman on this thread...

    First off I will reiterate again that my term "male bias" referrers to the perspective from which the Bible was written. The Bible was written by men, consequently what they wrote down was from a male point of view in much the same way a book that is written by a woman would have a feminine perspective. Men can't think like women and visa/versa.
    Hi Rose,

    Sorry to butt in on your response to Charisma, (I'm sure she will answer you), but I had a few thoughts that I wanted to pen before I forgot them.

    If the scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, would they not then be from God's point of view and not man's point of view? That is what Christians believe. Man was the facilitator, the writer of the scriptures but the thoughts came from the Holy Spirit. To say "men wrote the Bible is a true statment, but the thoughts came from God". So now we have a new set of questions to ask, don't we?

    Blessings to you
    Rick[/QUOTE]

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Rose,

    Sorry to butt in on your response to Charisma, (I'm sure she will answer you), but I had a few thoughts that I wanted to pen before I forgot them.

    If the scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, would they not then be from God's point of view and not man's point of view? That is what Christians believe. Man was the facilitator, the writer of the scriptures but the thoughts came from the Holy Spirit. To say "men wrote the Bible is a true statment, but the thoughts came from God". So now we have a new set of questions to ask, don't we?

    Blessings to you
    Rick
    Hi Rick,

    Glad you joined in...

    That's the problem with believing the Bible is the inspired word of God...it makes God sound like an immoral, misogynistic dictator. The solution to that problem is view the Bible as being written by men, who portrayed their own image of God as a male warrior who thought women should be in subjection to men.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Rose,

    Sorry to butt in on your response to Charisma, (I'm sure she will answer you), but I had a few thoughts that I wanted to pen before I forgot them.

    If the scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, would they not then be from God's point of view and not man's point of view? That is what Christians believe. Man was the facilitator, the writer of the scriptures but the thoughts came from the Holy Spirit. To say "men wrote the Bible is a true statment, but the thoughts came from God". So now we have a new set of questions to ask, don't we?

    Blessings to you
    Rick
    Hey there Rick,

    That is exactly what Rose has been trying to communicate for months, but no one seems to hear her.

    She has given reasons to support her contention that the Bible has a male bias. If she is correct, then it implies that the Bible was written by mere men and not inspired by God (at least not in the way that most Christians believe). I have been watching her repeat the same point over and over and over again, only to have it fall on deaf ears. It seems that no one can even see the evidence she presents, let alone answer it.

    What do you think about all the evidence she has given that shows a male bias in the Bible?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Charisma,

    It's nice to be talking with another woman on this thread...

    First off I will reiterate again that my term "male bias" referrers to the perspective from which the Bible was written. The Bible was written by men, consequently what they wrote down was from a male point of view in much the same way a book that is written by a woman would have a feminine perspective. Men can't think like women and visa/versa.

    I was a Christian for 25 years, so I am well aware of trying to deal with the "woman problem" in the Bible. I've tried many creative solutions to get around the male bias, but there are certain problems that there is no getting around if one is to keep the Bible intact as the inspired word of God. The bottom line is, the Bible was written by fallible men who portrayed a god within its pages that thought and acted like a misogynistic man.

    Proverbs 31 was of course one of my favorite passages, but it only put "salt in the wound" so to speak, because the rest of the Bible does not support what Proverbs 31 speaks of...women in the Bible did not have a free hand at running their households, because they were considered the property of men.



    You are right! I did form God in my image, which meant I was constantly confronted with the dilemma of my morals being better than God's Time and time again, if I read Scripture the way it was written I would be stopped in my tracks, because how could I be better than God?

    Jesus was indeed unlike any other character in the Bible as far as his views on the equality of women, but the sad thing is that most of the church fathers did not pick up on his teachings in that area. Instead, they focused on the writing's of Paul and the other apostles who promoted subjugation of women. All in all the Bible has not done women any favors in the area of equal rights, instead it has made it harder for women gain rights that the Bible speaks against.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Hi Rose,

    As I've mentioned in previous posts, I agree with you that the way it has been translated by MEN has made it appear that these are "God's words" to women. However, I have also tried to start showing you how this HAS been mistranslated, what the original manuscripts were saying, and it is not because I am trying many "creative solutions" to get around this problem. Paul really wasn't the chauvinistic misogynist that he has been portrayed to be because of mistranslations. I have much more to add to this thread in these regards, but let's just start with one of things I brought out earlier that you had no response for:

    From earlier thread:

    ...nowhere in the Bible is the husband instructed to be the 'master of the house'—the wife, on the other hand, is. That is, if the passage is translated correctly and not changed to fit predisposed beliefs!

    1 Tim 5:14 says: '14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.' Some translations say 'guide the home.' Either way, they are not being honest in their translation of the word for 'manage their homes.' The word is oikodespoteo, and in the Greek it means (copied from Strong’s): 'from NT:3617; to be the head of (i.e. rule) a family'

    NT:3617 is oikodespotes: 'from NT:3624 and NT:1203; the head of a family/master of the house'; NT:3624 = house and NT:1203 = 'despotes': 'an absolute ruler/despot'

    However, since the translators could not imagine a wife having such 'power,' they had to water that down to fit their preconceived notions. Again, Paul could have used the Greek word oikonomeo –which actually means 'to manage a house' or 'to be a steward of the house'—which would fit more with the translators ideas, but he didn’t!

    (NOTE: This doesn't mean that scripture is instructing women/wives to always rule/dominate either!! If we look at the whole of scripture, which I plan to do through this thread, we see a picture of mutual submission--what Paul REALLY taught, when translated without bias...)
    He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Eph 1:9-10

  9. #59
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    Those are good points Deb. Also...Paul was only seeing through a glass darkly at this stage. The "tongues of Fire" were "cloven" tongues...divided ones. (as opposed to the "flame" that is Joseph) They were still seeing through the division...so I imagine that he might have been as torn about it as we have been, seeing the contradictions and not fully understanding why. Also...because the church had just begun the refining process...they werent able to chew the meat of the word (which ironically, is the pure and simple facts about the birds and bees:-).

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there Rick,

    That is exactly what Rose has been trying to communicate for months, but no one seems to hear her.

    She has given reasons to support her contention that the Bible has a male bias. If she is correct, then it implies that the Bible was written by mere men and not inspired by God (at least not in the way that most Christians believe). I have been watching her repeat the same point over and over and over again, only to have it fall on deaf ears. It seems that no one can even see the evidence she presents, let alone answer it.

    What do you think about all the evidence she has given that shows a male bias in the Bible?

    All the best,

    Richard
    Richard, as I responded a bit earlier, and as I responded on earlier posts to Rose, I "hear her." However, the bias comes from the mistranslations, not the original intent. I am trying to piece this together little by little....not by "creatively" trying to "overcome" the "obvious bias" -- but to show that it has been mistranslated/misrepresented by the SCRIBES, not the original writers...and in some very obvious ways. Consider my last post--the one that points out the only place in the Bible that gives "Master of the house" title to the WIFE!! How can you say no one can answer the "evidence" Rose is providing? I can see her "evidence" -- I have seen the same for years in the Bible, and I am answering it...little by little....

    Let's start with this one verse I presented. Who is the "Master of the House" according to the Bible? Where else in the Bible is this title conferred on the husband? (And don't rabbit-trail me with all the "other" passages right now...I know them all very well, and will get to them one by one...let's start with this one.)

    ...
    He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Eph 1:9-10

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