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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post

    The Bible is so full of errors and flaws that I see no reason that could possible justify a person in this modern day to believe in it except ignorance, and I include myself in that statement. Does it not seem strange that Christians have to continually make excuses for why there are no original translations, or that Scribes may have made mistakes or copy errors. If the Bible truly was the inspired word of the creator of the universe shouldn’t we at least have an original, reliable, unambiguous translation?
    That is what I have been saying a thousand times. It's the same as asking why didn't God gave us a complete book of Physics and Mathematics so that men need not have to waste time to do research and test hypothesis to discover the truth about physics and mathematics. Might as well let God spoon-feed us in everything! The main purpose why the Bible is made ambiguous and the reason why Jesus spoke in parables and symbolically is so that we are forced to do research and study God's words diligently. Forcing us to study to know Him more forces us to continue to keep the faith whilst gaining knowledge about God. Such faith and perseverence in seeking to know more about God helps to prevent us from being ensnare by Satan. Ask yourself, what is the point of study if the teacher were to give the correct answers to every questions instead of letting the students gain more knowledge, insight and understanding through active diligent research and experiential learning.


    May God give us the diligence in seeking His wisdom.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    That is what I have been saying a thousand times. It's the same as asking why didn't God gave us a complete book of Physics and Mathematics so that men need not have to waste time to do research and test hypothesis to discover the truth about physics and mathematics. Might as well let God spoon-feed us in everything! The main purpose why the Bible is made ambiguous and the reason why Jesus spoke in parables and symbolically is so that we are forced to do research and study God's words diligently. Forcing us to study to know Him more forces us to continue to keep the faith whilst gaining knowledge about God. Such faith and perseverence in seeking to know more about God helps to prevent us from being ensnare by Satan. Ask yourself, what is the point of study if the teacher were to give the correct answers to every questions instead of letting the students gain more knowledge, insight and understanding through active diligent research and experiential learning.


    May God give us the diligence in seeking His wisdom.
    Hey there my friend,

    I gave a similar explanation when I was a Christian. And it may be true. But I think I see a problem. You said "Such faith and perseverence in seeking to know more about God helps to prevent us from being ensnare by Satan." I think exactly the opposite has happened. The Bible is so ambiguous that men have used it to oppress woman, have slaves, go to war, Crusades, Inquistion, burn people at the stake, and ten thousand other horrors. And there are ten thousand different religions all calling themselves "Christian" who fight with each other and often condemn each other as heretics destined for hell. I think God would have done better just to plainly state what he meant.

    And there's another problem - your solution denies the doctrine of the Perspicuity of Scripture.

    And one other problem - if your solution is true, then the Bible really is nothing like a guidebook that teaches us God's Ways. It means we are really all on our own as if we had no Word from God. We just gotta figure things out for ourselves.

    I would be very interested to know what our other Christian friends on this forum think about your solution.

    All the very best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there my friend,
    I gave a similar explanation when I was a Christian. And it may be true. But I think I see a problem. You said "Such faith and perseverence in seeking to know more about God helps to prevent us from being ensnare by Satan." I think exactly the opposite has happened. The Bible is so ambiguous that men have used it to oppress woman, have slaves, go to war, Crusades, Inquistion, burn people at the stake, and ten thousand other horrors. And there are ten thousand different religions all calling themselves "Christian" who fight with each other and often condemn each other as heretics destined for hell. I think God would have done better just to plainly state what he meant.
    You seems to blame all these atrocities on God. Many such as crusades, inquisition etc, were made by men who misinterpreted the scriptures or were over-zealous and thinking what they were doing were good just like Saul (Paul) persecuting the Christians. There were people making use of religion for their own agendas such as the terrorists. Many passages in the Bible were caused by men unknowingly doing selfish wicked things. I know there are several passages that God ordered atrocities but these are just ways to punish evil people with the plan to forgive their evil doings. Remember God would want everybody to be saved if possible (2Peter 3).

    And there's another problem - your solution denies the doctrine of the Perspicuity of Scripture.

    And one other problem - if your solution is true, then the Bible really is nothing like a guidebook that teaches us God's Ways. It means we are really all on our own as if we had no Word from God. We just gotta figure things out for ourselves.
    I have given examples before and I guess it fell on deaf ears. If a teacher were to give a difficult and ambiguous exam question and let every student figure it out and answers based on the fundamentals that were taught to the students, those student faithful in their studies and focused and diligent enough would be able to figure it out and give the correct answer. However, those student who are not faithful, focused or diligent enough to study and understand the fundamentals that were taught will most likely misinterpret the question and give the wrong answers. Now who is to blame? ....the teacher who is testing the students' faith, understanding and diligence in searching for the true answers using what was taught or the students who misinterpreted the question based on their lack of faith in understanding the fundamentals that were taught and their lack of focus and diligence in seeking the true answers?

    May God grant us the correct answers to His will. Amen.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  4. #44
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    A Pillar of Salt

    Another glaring example of the extreme male bias of the Bible is found in the story of the destruction of Sodom. When Lot offers up his two daughters to be raped by the angry mob of men, who have come for the two angels who are under his roof, Lot is not even slightly reprimanded...

    Gen.19:5-8 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.


    but, when Lot's wife looks back, she is turned into a pillar of salt... Seems a bit imbalanced to me...

    Gen.19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there my friend,
    I gave a similar explanation when I was a Christian. And it may be true. But I think I see a problem. You said "Such faith and perseverence in seeking to know more about God helps to prevent us from being ensnare by Satan." I think exactly the opposite has happened. The Bible is so ambiguous that men have used it to oppress woman, have slaves, go to war, Crusades, Inquistion, burn people at the stake, and ten thousand other horrors. And there are ten thousand different religions all calling themselves "Christian" who fight with each other and often condemn each other as heretics destined for hell. I think God would have done better just to plainly state what he meant.
    You seems to blame all these atrocities on God. Many such as crusades, inquisition etc, were made by men who misinterpreted the scriptures or were over-zealous and thinking what they were doing were good just like Saul (Paul) persecuting the Christians. There were people making use of religion for their own agendas such as the terrorists. Many passages in the Bible were caused by men unknowingly doing selfish wicked things. I know there are several passages that God ordered atrocities but these are just ways to punish evil people with the plan to forgive their evil doings. Remember God would want everybody to be saved if possible (2Peter 3).
    Hey there Cheow Wee,

    I agree that many of the abominations like the Crusades and Inquisition were resulted (in part) from men misinterpreting Scriptures - but my point was that the Scriptures are so ambiguous that it allowed men to do that while claiming their interpretations were based on what the Bible actually states. I don't think your answer addresses this point.

    The Bible has many passages that led people to think that slavery and oppression of women was not just OK, but actually commanded by God.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    And there's another problem - your solution denies the doctrine of the Perspicuity of Scripture.

    And one other problem - if your solution is true, then the Bible really is nothing like a guidebook that teaches us God's Ways. It means we are really all on our own as if we had no Word from God. We just gotta figure things out for ourselves.
    I have given examples before and I guess it fell on deaf ears. If a teacher were to give a difficult and ambiguous exam question and let every student figure it out and answers based on the fundamentals that were taught to the students, those student faithful in their studies and focused and diligent enough would be able to figure it out and give the correct answer. However, those student who are not faithful, focused or diligent enough to study and understand the fundamentals that were taught will most likely misinterpret the question and give the wrong answers. Now who is to blame? ....the teacher who is testing the students' faith, understanding and diligence in searching for the true answers using what was taught or the students who misinterpreted the question based on their lack of faith in understanding the fundamentals that were taught and their lack of focus and diligence in seeking the true answers?

    May God grant us the correct answers to His will. Amen.
    I think there is a problem with your answer. Christians do not say that the Bible is a "test" to see if people can "figure out on their own how to do right and wrong." If that were the case, what need is there for a Bible? Folks could just figure out right and wrong without it. Christians teach that the Bible is the WORD OF GOD that teaches us the "right way" but when we read it, we see that we have to figure it out for ourselves. Therefore, what good is the Bible if it doesn't teach us the right path?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Another glaring example of the extreme male bias of the Bible is found in the story of the destruction of Sodom. When Lot offers up his two daughters to be raped by the angry mob of men, who have come for the two angels who are under his roof, Lot is not even slightly reprimanded...
    Gen.19:5-8 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.


    but, when Lot's wife looks back, she is turned into a pillar of salt... Seems a bit imbalanced to me...
    Gen.19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.


    Rose
    Hi Rose,

    God does not "reprimand" everyone as soon as they transgress (like Mother Superior). But if you keep reading and watch their lives you will see what happens. Take David for example: He was responsible for Uriah's murder but later he had such turmoil in his family and Absalom turned on him and later was murdered. Many other sorrowful things happened in his family. Sometimes the reprimand that we get is great sorrow in our lives and our family's lives because of our choices. Eli and his two sons come to mind, too. The Bible shows us like no other book, life taking it's course from man's decisions (to love God or not). That is how people's lives are portrayed in many ways in the Bible, warts and all. That is what takes place in everyday, real life, too. God is not following people around, ready to jump on them. He has many ways of teaching us and one of them is "you reap what you sow". Do we reprimand people as soon as they do something bad? I don't, do you? Probably not. God wants us to grow up and mature and have no further need for a wet nurse following us around.

    Lot lost his wife. Maybe Lot thought that if he was a godly man and husband in the first place none of their calamites would ever have happened. Maybe he thought that if he would have had an investment of godly fellowship with his wife then she would have been strengthened by his love and interest in her and his own faith in God. I'm sure Lot had many regrets just like all of us have. But he was not a godly man and he was full of fear and lacked faith in God. Otherwise, he would not have been so cowardly and offered his daughters up as he did. And this spirit of fear and lack of faith was in his wife's life, too. This entire family had the same spirit of fear and unbelief and they were tainted by the inhabitants of Sodom. Lot, offering up his daughters is evidence of the influence of unclean and perverted spirits. And his daughters, later displaying fear and lack of faith, slept with their father. More evidence of being affected by unclean and unholy spirits.

    There is much to learn from all these lives besides perceived "male bias". We see throughout the Bible how male and female alike respond to God. Neither sex has a corner on the market of righteousness and holiness. We see the heart of men manifested in the Bible like no other book. There is neither male nor female in Jesus Christ and the best thing we can do is strengthen and encourage one another in the Lord, so that none of us end up like some of the men AND women in the Bible.

    Rom 15:4
    For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


    God bless,
    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Rose,

    God does not "reprimand" everyone as soon as they transgress (like Mother Superior). But if you keep reading and watch their lives you will see what happens. Take David for example: He was responsible for Uriah's murder but later he had such turmoil in his family and Absalom turned on him and later was murdered. Many other sorrowful things happened in his family. Sometimes the reprimand that we get is great sorrow in our lives and our family's lives because of our choices.
    Hey there Rick,

    That makes it sound like God deliberately ruined David's life and family as a form of punishment. Is that what you meant? That's not how I would ever "reprimand" someone. And what about devout people who have rotten kids? They often feel like God is punishing them for some unknown sin.

    So your answer brings up a huge question - how can a person know if the bad things that happen to them are because God is punishing them or the Devil is attacking them or that it's just bad luck? Is there any way to know? If not, then God is not effectively "reprimanding" anyone since no one knows if it's God, the Devil, or bad luck.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Rose,

    God does not "reprimand" everyone as soon as they transgress (like Mother Superior). But if you keep reading and watch their lives you will see what happens. Take David for example: He was responsible for Uriah's murder but later he had such turmoil in his family and Absalom turned on him and later was murdered. Many other sorrowful things happened in his family. Sometimes the reprimand that we get is great sorrow in our lives and our family's lives because of our choices. Eli and his two sons come to mind, too. The Bible shows us like no other book, life taking it's course from man's decisions (to love God or not). That is how people's lives are portrayed in many ways in the Bible, warts and all. That is what takes place in everyday, real life, too. God is not following people around, ready to jump on them. He has many ways of teaching us and one of them is "you reap what you sow". Do we reprimand people as soon as they do something bad? I don't, do you? Probably not. God wants us to grow up and mature and have no further need for a wet nurse following us around.

    Lot lost his wife. Maybe Lot thought that if he was a godly man and husband in the first place none of their calamites would ever have happened. Maybe he thought that if he would have had an investment of godly fellowship with his wife then she would have been strengthened by his love and interest in her and his own faith in God. I'm sure Lot had many regrets just like all of us have. But he was not a godly man and he was full of fear and lacked faith in God. Otherwise, he would not have been so cowardly and offered his daughters up as he did. And this spirit of fear and lack of faith was in his wife's life, too. This entire family had the same spirit of fear and unbelief and they were tainted by the inhabitants of Sodom. Lot, offering up his daughters is evidence of the influence of unclean and perverted spirits. And his daughters, later displaying fear and lack of faith, slept with their father. More evidence of being affected by unclean and unholy spirits.

    There is much to learn from all these lives besides perceived "male bias". We see throughout the Bible how male and female alike respond to God. Neither sex has a corner on the market of righteousness and holiness. We see the heart of men manifested in the Bible like no other book. There is neither male nor female in Jesus Christ and the best thing we can do is strengthen and encourage one another in the Lord, so that none of us end up like some of the men AND women in the Bible.

    Rom 15:4
    For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


    God bless,
    Rick
    Hi Rick,

    I'm surprised I have to keep reiterating the same point. I'm not saying women are more righteous, or holy than men, rather that the Bible is obviously written from a totally male perspective, so naturally it going to be slanted and skewed towards the male. Everywhere one looks in Scripture women are treated as property and given far fewer rights than men, this is just an undeniable fact, which is in keeping with my premise that the Bible was written by men who formed god in the likeness of their own image.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #49
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    Hi there everyone!

    Repromand...reprimand...repremant???
    No matter how it's spelled, knowing to do better
    swiftly more than the wind has been taken out of these sails...
    and probably will be again:
    jap-slapped and set back if i do not right knowing Him.

    Then again, even as a tiny tot strong willed child was an understatement.
    After mastery tying my shoelaces, i took on the world,
    starting with the establishment right under our very roof.

    Honestly. . .still
    He has shown even greater loving kindness
    and more benefits than could ever be expected
    when things remain right with Him.

    Knowing Abba (Daddy) is watching and guiding and protecting and benefitting every move
    makes it all more than worthwhile.


    It's now known it's all according to what is needful:

    (my prayer, too)
    ...I know, LORD,
    that a man’s way of life is not his own;
    no one who walks determines his own steps. al
    Discipline me, LORD, but with justice —
    not in Your anger, am
    or You will reduce me to nothing.
    Jer. 10.23-24 HCSB




    Somebody up there more than likes me
    and i do not deserve it,

    Tim TimTimmy Tim
    Timmy Tim Tim Tim
    Pah rum-pah pum pum
    Me and my drum
    Last edited by Timmy; 12-07-2011 at 05:25 AM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there Rick,

    That makes it sound like God deliberately ruined David's life and family as a form of punishment. Is that what you meant? That's not how I would ever "reprimand" someone. And what about devout people who have rotten kids? They often feel like God is punishing them for some unknown sin.

    So your answer brings up a huge question - how can a person know if the bad things that happen to them are because God is punishing them or the Devil is attacking them or that it's just bad luck? Is there any way to know? If not, then God is not effectively "reprimanding" anyone since no one knows if it's God, the Devil, or bad luck.

    Richard

    Hi Richard,

    No, what I meant with David is that what was sowed by his unrighteousness was his "reprimand", just like it is with all of us.

    Seems that Absalom lost respect for his father and events just carried on from there.

    The book of Proverbs in many ways is a book that describes the sowing and reaping of many things.
    And we are counseled over and over to get wisdom, attend to His words, keep our heart with all diligence, etc, etc.

    We also see a God of mercy in the OT towards the broken and contrite (He will not despise).

    God always knows all the facts of why something happened in someone's life. When we look at the whole counsel of God we begin to understand man's ways and God's ways, too. The contrast is stark.

    More later, I'm sure.
    Rick
    Last edited by heb13-13; 12-07-2011 at 07:52 AM.

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

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