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  1. #21
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    Because of our human tendency to overstate things of which we think we believe, and in the overstatements venture down innumerable side trails, I choose to be brief in response to your question, Richard.

    One word has to do with His purpose.......prothesis.

    Can you look that up and see if it fits?

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Because of our human tendency to overstate things of which we think we believe, and in the overstatements venture down innumerable side trails, I choose to be brief in response to your question, Richard.

    One word has to do with His purpose.......prothesis.

    Can you look that up and see if it fits?

    Joel
    The word "prothesis" basically means "to set forth." It is accurately translated as "purpose" in the verse I presume you are implicitly referencing:
    Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose (prothesis) of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
    But this does not answer my question. It speaks only of God choosing to use two individuals for his purpose. It says nothing about God ordaining "whatsoever comes to pass."

    Why don't you just plainly state what you think on this matter? I feel like we are playing a game of "cat and mouse."
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    The word "prothesis" basically means "to set forth." It is accurately translated as "purpose" in the verse I presume you are implicitly referencing:
    Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose (prothesis) of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
    But this does not answer my question. It speaks only of God choosing to use two individuals for his purpose. It says nothing about God ordaining "whatsoever comes to pass."

    Why don't you just plainly state what you think on this matter? I feel like we are playing a game of "cat and mouse."
    Sorry, Richard,

    I don't like that type of game, so, I was not intending to draw you into one.

    The verse that I was contemplating was;

    II Tim. 1:9;
    Who hath saved us and called (us) with a holy calling,
    not according to our works,
    but, according to his own
    purpose (prothesin) and grace,
    which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (pros chronOn aiOniOn).

    During the ages, His will is contested every day, and over-ruled by the "free will" of man.....but.....His purpose (his before-placing), and His grace which were given to us before the age times began cannot be thwarted by anything. That is, in my opinion, an example of His sovereignty, as the All Mighty God.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    .
    The verses below once again exemplify the strong male bias of the Bible against women, giving overwhelming evidence that the God of the Bible was created in the minds of men.


    Rose
    How is it that man relinquish his male bias in the new covenant? Galations 3:28 What evidence does that give? Just wondering why this still is coming up? Wasn't there also women bishops in the early church? Where is that male dominates? Again I hope we don't conclude that this God isn't male bias!!!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Sorry, Richard,

    I don't like that type of game, so, I was not intending to draw you into one.

    The verse that I was contemplating was;

    II Tim. 1:9;
    Who hath saved us and called (us) with a holy calling,
    not according to our works,
    but, according to his own
    purpose (prothesin) and grace,
    which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (pros chronOn aiOniOn).

    During the ages, His will is contested every day, and over-ruled by the "free will" of man.....but.....His purpose (his before-placing), and His grace which were given to us before the age times began cannot be thwarted by anything. That is, in my opinion, an example of His sovereignty, as the All Mighty God.

    Joel
    OK - it seems that by "absolutely sovereignty" you mean that God will accomplish what he intends "in the end" even though folks right now are able to do things contrary to his will. That makes perfect sense to me. It doesn't sound anything like the Calvinist doctrine that says God's sovereignty implies that he ordains "whatsoever comes to pass."
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    it seems that by "absolutely sovereignty" you mean that God will accomplish what he intends "in the end" even though folks right now are able to do things contrary to his will. That makes perfect sense to me. It doesn't sound anything like the Calvinist doctrine that says God's sovereignty implies that he ordains "whatsoever comes to pass."
    Exactly.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  7. #27
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    Male Bias of the Bible: Part 4

    .
    In the Law of Moses, given by the God of the Bible a man may give his wife a bill of divorce if he is dissatisfied with her, but the same is NOT true if a wife finds dissatisfaction with her husband. There was no voice given to the woman who suffers abuse at the hands of her husband, because she had no say over her own life. This typifies the treatment of women in most dominator societies and the authors of the Bible were no different.
    Deut. 24:1-2 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
    Once again I have pointed out the double standard that is prevalent throughout the entire Bible (mostly in the Old Testament) with issues pertaining to women.


    • Men could choose their wives/ women were sold to men for wives
    • Men could have multiple wives and concubines/ women could have one husband
    • Men could divorce their wives at will/ women were divorced by men
    • Men could marry virgins they raped/ women were sold to their abuser


    In the Bible women were considered property, which gave the man the right to buy and sell them at will. This once again confirms the fact that the 'God-given' hierarchical order of the Bible is one of inequality, creating a system that favors one gender over the other, thus establishing an imbalance found nowhere else in the animal-kingdom. The only place in all of the animal-kingdom that male suppression of the female is found is in the human species where the male dominates and oppresses the female keeping her from realizing her full potential. The Bible actually establishes this domination of women as a 'God-given' rule of the hierarchical order of the Hebrew society, proving the innate inequality and imbalance of that system.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  8. #28
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    Male Bias of the Bible: Part 5

    .
    According to the Apostle Paul in his letter to Timothy, the reason the woman is put under the authority of the man, is because Eve was deceived by the Snake. For that reason, and that reason alone all women from "The Garden" till now bear that curse in their femininity. Meaning, that woman are placed in subjugation under the man solely because of gender…not because of lack of intellect, not because of lack of ability, not for any reason other than the fact of being female! Now that’s pretty bad!
    1 Tim. 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
    Would any person ever dream of punishing every male or female on the planet, because an individual man or woman committed a crime? Of course not! But, that is exactly what the God of the Bible is portrayed as doing. The ONLY reason ever given throughout the entire Bible for the hierarchical order of male headship is the one I just cited (Eve’s transgression), and that is the lame excuse Christian men have used for centuries to keep women from sharing equal rights with them. It truly is a shameful thing.


    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 06-18-2011 at 02:18 PM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #29
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    Male Bias of the Bible: Part 6

    .
    Of course the bias continues big time in the New Testament, despite the fact that the teachings of Jesus are for the most part extremely egalitarian. The Apostle Paul is the culprit for most of the bias against women, but the Apostle Peter also plays a significant part even though only two book are attributed to him verses 14 for Paul.

    According to Paul a woman is nothing without the man, for she is his glory, and came from the man and was created for the man. With teachings like that is it any wonder that Christian women have had to struggle so hard to get an equal standing with men.
    1Cor.11:3-10 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God….But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
    But, only the tip of the proverbial iceberg has been touched. The egregious bias continues in 1Timothy where Paul sets forth the standard for proper conduct of the woman that is solely based on gender…no such standard is set forth for men. A woman who is widowed can only be taken in by the Church IF she has been the wife of one man, and IF she has lodged strangers, and washed the feet of the saints, IF she has relieved the afflicted and diligently followed every good work. Then Paul goes into a tirade against young widows, refusing them support from the Church, commanding that marry and bear children, otherwise they will become idle, wandering from house to house, tattlers, busybodies, and ultimately turning to Satan. Wow, what a load of male chauvinism…funny thing is the same standard does not apply to men.
    1Tim.5:9- Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned aside after Satan.
    It is very apparent that the teachings of Paul concerning women directly paralleled many of the traditions practiced by the surrounding cultures, once again pointing to the fact that the words of Paul were not 'God-given', but rather a direct reflection of the customs and traditions of the time.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #30
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    Male Bias of the Bible: Part 7

    .
    The book of Numbers gives another good example of the status of women as 'property' in the eyes of the Hebrew culture, which was in keeping with the customs of their surrounding pagan neighbors.

    The verses below highlight the fact that the Israelites under 'Gods' command, were doing exactly what their pagan neighbors did. When a battle was fought and war 'booty' was taken, the virgin women were counted as 'booty' to be divided up amongst the men along with the livestock.
    Numbers 31:30-31 & 35 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the cattle, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD. And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses…..And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.
    Does anyone not see the picture these verses are painting? The supposed hierarchical order given to the Hebrews by their warrior god, Yahweh is no different from any of the other Dominator societies – perhaps worse. So, what makes a Christian believe that this 'God' of the Bible who bases his hierarchical order solely on gender is real, and not the mythical imaginings of ancient minds?


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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