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  1. #11
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    There is a spiritual perspective to all things written in the scripture.

    But, to the mind that is "biased" towards the flesh, such things are foolishness.

    To the ones becoming "spiritual".....the wisdom of God shines forth, and they judge from a new perspective.

    The cross of our Lord is the place where the flesh is judged, and is put to death. And yet, we live on having been put to death on the cross with Him. This is foolishness and spiritual obscurity to those who have not seen the truth of His cross.

    Those who have been given a glimpse of the liberty gained in the death of God's Son see themselves and all things around them from a new perspective.

    The flesh is "biased" towards all things pertaining to flesh. Your arguments are fleshly, and will not lead you to liberty, but to bondage.

    ....the truth will set you free.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    There is a spiritual perspective to all things written in the scripture.

    But, to the mind that is "biased" towards the flesh, such things are foolishness.

    To the ones becoming "spiritual".....the wisdom of God shines forth, and they judge from a new perspective.

    The cross of our Lord is the place where the flesh is judged, and is put to death. And yet, we live on having been put to death on the cross with Him. This is foolishness and spiritual obscurity to those who have not seen the truth of His cross.

    Those who have been given a glimpse of the liberty gained in the death of God's Son see themselves and all things around them from a new perspective.

    The flesh is "biased" towards all things pertaining to flesh. Your arguments are fleshly, and will not lead you to liberty, but to bondage.

    ....the truth will set you free.

    Joel
    I would like to ask you a question that I've asked others before: "Why do you judge the Bible to be the word of God, and not some other book like the Koran?"

    My "arguments" are not "fleshly", they are simple questions that should be ask by any discerning person...and we should keep seeking and asking till we find the answers.

    And that my friend is what will set us free!

    All the Best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    There is a spiritual perspective to all things written in the scripture.

    But, to the mind that is "biased" towards the flesh, such things are foolishness.

    To the ones becoming "spiritual".....the wisdom of God shines forth, and they judge from a new perspective.

    The cross of our Lord is the place where the flesh is judged, and is put to death. And yet, we live on having been put to death on the cross with Him. This is foolishness and spiritual obscurity to those who have not seen the truth of His cross.

    Those who have been given a glimpse of the liberty gained in the death of God's Son see themselves and all things around them from a new perspective.

    The flesh is "biased" towards all things pertaining to flesh. Your arguments are fleshly, and will not lead you to liberty, but to bondage.

    ....the truth will set you free.

    Joel
    I think you are misapplying the Scriptures here. The "spiritual perception" of which you speak refers to understanding the "foolishness of God" seen in the Gospel. It cannot be used to transform a moral evil like killing babies into a moral goodness. It seems absurd to say that only those with a "fleshly mind" would object to baby killing as "immoral" while those with true "spiritual perception" will recognizes the real "truth" that baby killing is good.

    I also think you began with a false assumption. It is true that many Scriptures cannot be understood without spiritual insight, but it is false to assert that "all things written in the scripture" are "foolishness" to those who are not able to see their "spiritual perspectives." Case in point - anyone with any moral sense at all can see that the command to kill innocent babies is morally wrong. There is no "spiritual perspective" that can fix something that is an objectively immoral. At best you could come up with a "pragmatic perspective" that says it was "relatively good" to kill all the men, women, and children to make room for "God's people" but pragmatism is quite the opposite of a "spiritual perspective."
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #14
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    Male Bias of the Bible: Part 3

    .
    The verses below once again exemplify the strong male bias of the Bible against women, giving overwhelming evidence that the God of the Bible was created in the minds of men.

    In this section of the Law of Moses found in Deuteronomy, both the ownership and gender-bias is exposed. Under the Law of Moses, given by the God of the Bible, we read of a case pertaining to a man finding a virgin woman who is not engaged, and raping her (The Hebrew word used is 'taphas', which means 'to take hold of, or seize'). The punishment for this crime of rape is that the accused man is required to pay the woman’s father '50 Shekels' and marry her because he has 'humbled' her (anah: to afflict, browbeat, or oppress)…also; he is never allowed to divorce her!

    The poor woman in not only forced to marry her rapist, but she must also be bound to him for life! The father profits by getting recompensed for his damaged goods (his humbled daughter) and the rapist profits by gaining a life-long sex-slave.
    Deut.22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold (taphas) on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her (anah), he may not put her away all his days.
    Of course this is just another prime example of the mindset of male dominated societies…and the authors of the Bible were no different then any other peoples of their time period, which is expressed very clearly in their writings. Women were considered the property of the male; first of the father and then of the husband. This was the norm for most cultures of the world at that time and is exactly how the authors of the Bible created their 'God' to view women and incorporate it into the law. As I have said: 'Men created a god in their own image' the only thing that changed from other cultures was having one god make all the rules instead of many.



    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #15
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    God purposes to develop within us a spiritual mindset (phronema pneuma....Romans 8).

    Is it any wonder that the mindset of the human race, exemplified in the ancient scriptures, is expressed at times from such a fleshly, carnal perspective?

    But now, at this time, we have the opportunity to have this paradigm nurtured within us. It seems to me that engaging in conversations that are attuned to such a God pleasing mindset are needful, and helpful in developing a spiritual viewpoint.

    Otherwise, there is only one other mindset.......one which focuses on the flesh (phronema sarx.....Romans 8). Such a mindset is not pleasing to God no matter how rational, and learned may it seem to be, and can only lead to a walk in this world according to the spirit of this age, and focusing on matters of the flesh and not of the spirit.

    The cross of Christ is where the flesh is judged, and if we view the flesh as being crucified with Him, then......we may have hope that God can deliver us from the fleshly mindset which hinders our walk with Him.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    God purposes to develop within us a spiritual mindset (phronema pneuma....Romans 8).

    Is it any wonder that the mindset of the human race, exemplified in the ancient scriptures, is expressed at times from such a fleshly, carnal perspective?

    But now, at this time, we have the opportunity to have this paradigm nurtured within us. It seems to me that engaging in conversations that are attuned to such a God pleasing mindset are needful, and helpful in developing a spiritual viewpoint.

    Otherwise, there is only one other mindset.......one which focuses on the flesh (phronema sarx.....Romans 8). Such a mindset is not pleasing to God no matter how rational, and learned may it seem to be, and can only lead to a walk in this world according to the spirit of this age, and focusing on matters of the flesh and not of the spirit.

    The cross of Christ is where the flesh is judged, and if we view the flesh as being crucified with Him, then......we may have hope that God can deliver us from the fleshly mindset which hinders our walk with Him.

    Joel
    Hey Joel,

    I agree very much. I think the purpose of the Bible is to develop the "mind of the spirit" (to phronema tou pneumatos). And yes, I think that the fact that humanity has been growing out of the "mind of the flesh" explains very well why much of the Scripture is so carnal. That's all good. But it also indicates how very wrong it is to assert that the Bible is the "inerrant and infallible Word of God" since that would be identifying the "mind of the flesh" - the "carnal mind" - to the status of the Mind of God, and that would be a very big mistake indeed.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #17
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    I see your point. Thanks.

    If the carnal, fleshly viewpoint of mankind takes scripture and puts a spin on it.....it would surely convey wrong perspectives.

    I agree with you on this matter.

    Obviously, then, if the original scripture (prior to the "spin") were available, what a blessing that would provide.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    I see your point. Thanks.

    If the carnal, fleshly viewpoint of mankind takes scripture and puts a spin on it.....it would surely convey wrong perspectives.

    I agree with you on this matter.

    Obviously, then, if the original scripture (prior to the "spin") were available, what a blessing that would provide.

    Joel
    I'm confused: on the one hand, you seem to be saying that the problem is caused by a "fleshly viewpoint" of Scripture, while on the other hand you seem to be saying that the problem is caused by a corruption of the "original scripture."

    Do you think that the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts are an adequate representation of the "original scripture" or have they been so corrupted that we'll never know what was in the "original scripture"?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #19
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    In so far as I view God as absolute sovereign, whatever state the scripture is in, however weak it may be in its current state of delivery to us, it is fully capable of conveying truth in spite of the weaknesses.

    The weaknesses are due to the flesh, the adversary, to name just a few causes.
    Fleshly man can twist and turn the words to mean things not originally intended.

    One the most harmful influences upon the truth of scripture is attributed to the wrong interpretations of words. It is very helpful, in the study of God's Word, to seek an understanding through competent concordances the original meanings of words.

    God does not force a correction of these matters and make sure that we have the exact wording as He may have originally intended....... and God has chosen to remain "silent" concerning such, allowing man and woman to say whatever they want, however far from the truth they may be in their reasonings.

    But, God can by His spirit, cause us to believe and to understand in spite of all the impediments........this too is attributed to His sovereignty.

    While grace is reigning, God is not reckoning the offenses of mankind against them. However, this will not be the case when He chooses to demonstrate His wrath.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    In so far as I view God as absolute sovereign, whatever state the scripture is in, however weak it may be in its current state of delivery to us, it is fully capable of conveying truth in spite of the weaknesses.

    The weaknesses are due to the flesh, the adversary, to name just a few causes.
    Fleshly man can twist and turn the words to mean things not originally intended.

    One the most harmful influences upon the truth of scripture is attributed to the wrong interpretations of words. It is very helpful, in the study of God's Word, to seek an understanding through competent concordances the original meanings of words.

    God does not force a correction of these matters and make sure that we have the exact wording as He may have originally intended....... and God has chosen to remain "silent" concerning such, allowing man and woman to say whatever they want, however far from the truth they may be in their reasonings.

    But, God can by His spirit, cause us to believe and to understand in spite of all the impediments........this too is attributed to His sovereignty.

    While grace is reigning, God is not reckoning the offenses of mankind against them. However, this will not be the case when He chooses to demonstrate His wrath.

    Joel
    Your post raises many questions in my mind. What do you mean by "absolute sovereignty?" Does it relate to the Calvinist position? Here's how it is expressed in the Westminster Confusion of the Faith:
    I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
    I love how they built an explicit logical contradiction into their "confession" of the faith. God ordaining that I pick my nose on Tuesday does no "violence" to my freedom to choose. Yeah ... that makes sense. It's also interesting that this fundamental doctrine of "God's Sovereignty" is not supported as stated in Scripture. There is no passage of the Bible that says God did "ordain whatsoever comes to pass."

    Sorry if that is a digression that has nothing to do with your understanding of God's "absolutely sovereignty." I very much would like to know what you mean by that statement.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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