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  1. #11
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    In these terms the use of adultery and adulterous is about their spiritual condition not that they where a generation of sexual perverts.
    Beck, we should look at both sides literal and spiritual. To look at it only spiritually contradicts your statement on why God allowed Moses to give a letter of divorcement:

    I understand in the OT that there where many differences, but again isn't that what Jesus stated that at the first it was not so, but becasue of their heart God allowed Moses to give a letter of divorcement.

    In true context when looking at a woman it should have read, looking at a 'wife' [Strongs=G1135]to lust. How else would one commit adultery?
    The passage should be read as looking at a (married) woman with sex in his mind has already committed adultery in his heart. On the man's point of view, it will not matter to a man with sex in his mind if the woman is married, engaged or single. And how would a man knows if the woman he is looking at lustfully is married, engaged or single?

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Yes, in the Bible lusting in ones heart after another is also considered adultery.


    Like I said, the Bible has both extremes when it comes to marriage. On one hand the Old is totally permissive when it comes to men divorcing their wives whenever they want and how many wives they can have, though it was never the case for women...whereas in the New the idea of celibacy is promoted.

    Seems to me people need to use their own judgment on matters of divorce and remarriage.

    Rose
    I understand what you're saying, but would that give a reason to negate what the bible says about marriage? My thought would be yes the old was totally permissive, but again wasn't the old a school master for the new? So yes when reading there would be two spectrums.

    Taking the beatitudes Jesus spoke of 'Ye have heard it said', but then goes on to say 'I say unto you'. I would think Jesus is saying that the old is passing away and the new covenant is this, which is a matter of the heart. No more shall a man put away his wife for another....Now there alot more that could be said, but I stop there, but I would hope you can see my point.

    As my point in the new covenant era both the man or the woman commit adultery by putting away there mate and marring another. So I don't see it one sided any more.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH
    Beck, we should look at both sides literal and spiritual. To look at it only spiritually contradicts your statement on why God allowed Moses to give a letter of divorcement:
    CWH, that's what I was trying to point out in how you used thoses terms, so yes I agree. It seem you used thoses terms as literal sexual adultery, but reading the context is appears it's an spiritual adultery that Jesus refered to the pharisees.
    Jesus wasn't speaking about marriage in those cases, but was addressing in Matthew 19 concerning marriage and putting away.
    The passage should be read as looking at a (married) woman with sex in his mind has already committed adultery in his heart. On the man's point of view, it will not matter to a man with sex in his mind if the woman is married, engaged or single. And how would a man knows if the woman he is looking at lustfully is married, engaged or single?

    Many Blessings.
    Jesus was telling the multitudes 'Ye have heard it said' Thou shalt not commit adultery. Sex outside of marriage.This is the context.

    If this be the case for a single man when looking upon a single woman this wouldn't be what Jesus was addressing. But more toward the single man and/or married looking at another man's wife to lust in his heart. In saying this man don't need to lay with the married woman to commit adultery for he has areally in his heart. For what is in the heart of man defile the man. Jesus used the word adultery rather than fornication refering back to the commandment.
    Last edited by Beck; 06-13-2011 at 06:26 AM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    CWH, that's what I was trying to point out in how you used thoses terms, so yes I agree. It seem you used thoses terms as literal sexual adultery, but reading the context is appears it's an spiritual adultery that Jesus refered to the pharisees.
    Jesus wasn't speaking about marriage in those cases, but was addressing in Matthew 19 concerning marriage and putting away.


    Jesus was telling the multitudes 'Ye have heard it said' Thou shalt not commit adultery. Sex outside of marriage.This is the context.

    If this be the case for a single man when looking upon a single woman this wouldn't be what Jesus was addressing. But more toward the single man and/or married looking at another man's wife to lust in his heart. In saying this man don't need to lay with the married woman to commit adultery for he has areally in his heart. For what is in the heart of man defile the man. Jesus used the word adultery rather than fornication refering back to the commandment.
    Jesus took the whole of the law and applied it to the thoughts and intents of ones heart, which is basically taking the commandment of thou shalt not covet and applying it to everything. Also we are told not to hate our enemies, or those that curse us, but rather to bless them.

    What I see happening in the 1st century is that Judaism had gotten so crushed under the bondage of the law that when Jesus came his teachings radically changed the whole concept of law-keeping to one of "loving others as yourself", and then applied it in an extreme manner to try and bring balance back to Judaism. Remember, Jesus first came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and from there the message was spread to the world.

    Balance is crucial in any system for there to be growth, and the Jewish sacrificial system had degraded to the point were it was on the verge of becoming extinct. What saved the concept of the one god Yahweh, is the few who followed the path of Jesus, thus swinging the pendulum to the positive side and bringing balance back, allowing growth.

    My whole premise for the Bible NOT being the word of God, maintains that because of the imbalance of the Bible toward the male it cannot be a representation of a god given system. A true system giving by "God" would not lay a foundation that is totally skewed toward the male...a true "God" by his very nature MUST be neutral, which is clearly not what we see in the Bible.

    Rose
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Jesus took the whole of the law and applied it to the thoughts and intents of ones heart, which is basically taking the commandment of thou shalt not covet and applying it to everything. Also we are told not to hate our enemies, or those that curse us, but rather to bless them.

    What I see happening in the 1st century is that Judaism had gotten so crushed under the bondage of the law that when Jesus came his teachings radically changed the whole concept of law-keeping to one of "loving others as yourself", and then applied it in an extreme manner to try and bring balance back to Judaism. Remember, Jesus first came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and from there the message was spread to the world.

    Balance is crucial in any system for there to be growth, and the Jewish sacrificial system had degraded to the point were it was on the verge of becoming extinct. What saved the concept of the one god Yahweh, is the few who followed the path of Jesus, thus swinging the pendulum to the positive side and bringing balance back, allowing growth.

    My whole premise for the Bible NOT being the word of God, maintains that because of the imbalance of the Bible toward the male it cannot be a representation of a god given system. A true system giving by "God" would not lay a foundation that is totally skewed toward the male...a true "God" by his very nature MUST be neutral, which is clearly not what we see in the Bible.
    Rose
    My sweat sister Rose. I wouldn't say that the Bible is skewed towards the male. I think men merely misunderstand, or misinterpret the males role in the Bible. It is the weak minded male who assumes that when Paul states, "For the man is the head of the house hold", this doesn't mean he is the sole authority, as though he were to be treated like a king. It merely means that he is the responsible one; the one who thinks in place for the family pertaining to worshiping God. But does this mean his wife and children are beneath him? Of course not. They are all one body. The wife is joined with her husband, and the husband joined with her wife. By human instincts, the male feels compelled to adore his wife, and look upon her as the weaker partner, always in need of his protection. And trust me; men want that feeling; men want to know that their wives adore them as well, and depend on them for support and protection. A man who loves his wife will swim through shark infested waters to ensure the safety and care of his wife and children. After all, even though he may represent the head of the body, the chest, leg, arm, feet are no less important. Without the feet, man cannot walk; without the hand, man cannot feel; without the chest, man would have no heart. And so you see, when a man and woman are together, they form one body, and she is just as important as the man. I've always said that it's not 50/50, but 100/100, when it comes to husband and wife.

    Now with regards to the Church, I understand that women were not given high roles when it comes to leading the flock. But that depends on how you look at it. Who did God pick to birth His Son? Joseph? Nope, because man would have ran off like a chicken being chased by a pack of wolves.
    God chose a woman to give birth to His Son, and to me, that is one of the highest roles any human could ever hold with God. Moses was led by God, Solomon blessed by God, and the children of Israel became known as God's chosen people. But none of those things, in my opinion, could even come close to the role that a single woman played in bringing salvation to mankind; giving birth to Son begotten of God. How beautiful it must have been to be called the mother of God, or how magestic it must have been for the singers to say, "blessed is the fruit of they womb...." She raised, nursed, and cared for the Son of Man. I mean, you can't beat Mary's role in the Bible, except of course Jesus Himself. And so women are just as important as men.

    Now when it comes ot the Church, Paul says it's because woman was deceived first, and then man, that women were not permitted to speak. But this was in reference to talking in tongues. I used to joke around about this, to show the gullible man in action from day one, when he said, "She made me do it!" But that's just the ignorance and forwardness of man for ya.

    Rest assured sister Rose that you are just as important as Henry; you both make up one body, and are a team.

    Finally, what does the Bible say about marriage, divorce, and re-marriage? Well, let me first say that I'm guilt of this sin. My first marriage ended in divorce from adultery. But you want to know the real reason why my wife committed adultery? Because I was once a male shovenist pig who, like many other ignorant males, usurped the male authoritative figure as king, "DO WHAT I SAY". So I don't blame her for leaving me into the arms of another man. The two are still together, but he too was married to another Church member. So all four of us (his ex-wife, and my ex-wife) are all guilty of adultery. I remarried in 1999 to someone else I met and we've been together since. Yet I know that I'm guilty of adultery because my ex-wife is still alive. According to scripture, couples who separate because of adultery are not free to marry until the other dies, or else remain separated, with the glimmer of hope of a reunion. That rarely happens though.


    Hope I didn't bore you guys to death.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 06-14-2011 at 12:08 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Jesus took the whole of the law and applied it to the thoughts and intents of ones heart, which is basically taking the commandment of thou shalt not covet and applying it to everything. Also we are told not to hate our enemies, or those that curse us, but rather to bless them.

    What I see happening in the 1st century is that Judaism had gotten so crushed under the bondage of the law that when Jesus came his teachings radically changed the whole concept of law-keeping to one of "loving others as yourself", and then applied it in an extreme manner to try and bring balance back to Judaism. Remember, Jesus first came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and from there the message was spread to the world.

    Balance is crucial in any system for there to be growth, and the Jewish sacrificial system had degraded to the point were it was on the verge of becoming extinct. What saved the concept of the one god Yahweh, is the few who followed the path of Jesus, thus swinging the pendulum to the positive side and bringing balance back, allowing growth.
    Rose, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. The whole purpose of the Messiah Jesus was to bring light unto a darken world. The laws where given to show men their faults. How else would they known?

    That's the school master that starts out on the ground level and develops the knowlegde of good and evil, but dosen't do anything to help reach or fullfill it's purpose. That's the reason the Messiah must take up his cross of death, so the Comforter would come unto man. Through the Spirit of God the man then could walk by the Spirit and not Flesh. So in any case I see this as a matter of growth for the law unto the Spirit of the law.

    This I beleive is what Jesus was indicating to the Pharisees that at first it wasn't so that a man could put away his wife, but only becasue of their harden hearts that Moses suffered them to put away their wifes. By God given the Holy Spirit and through the the commandment of love there would be in their hearts love for their wifes. Then when Jesus said, I say unto you, that whosoever then puts away his wife and marries another commit adultery...As I understand it the only exception would be that the man found his betrothed wife unclean as on the day of consummation of the marriage. Here this man was then allowed to put her way: Case and point being Joseph and Mary.

    My whole premise for the Bible NOT being the word of God, maintains that because of the imbalance of the Bible toward the male it cannot be a representation of a god given system. A true system giving by "God" would not lay a foundation that is totally skewed toward the male...a true "God" by his very nature MUST be neutral, which is clearly not what we see in the Bible.

    Rose
    It would seem all throughout the stores/books of the laws and prophets they come to reveal the Messiah promised to the people of Israel. Within the gospels and acts of the apostles it would seem to be again revealing the fullfillment of the promised Messiah. So in that sense I can see the workings of God even within the Biblewheel itself is proof that God had a hand it writting and placing it together.

    I would also think that the God that is represented isn't protrayed as being Neutral at all. So why would anyone want a God that is neutral? So I don't see how you Rose can evaluate the whole bible by male and female and then say it can't be from God! I agree man wrote history, poems and prophesy., but even with that God, how every you describe God, had a hand in placing it all together. I guess he should have used the Edit button.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post

    I would also think that the God that is represented isn't portrayed as being Neutral at all.
    So why would anyone want a God that is neutral? So I don't see how you Rose can evaluate the whole bible by male and female and then say it can't be from God! I agree man wrote history, poems and prophesy., but even with that God, how every you describe God, had a hand in placing it all together. I guess he should have used the Edit button.
    Hi Beck,

    A true creator god would be gender-neutral and balanced...meaning neither male or female. My premise is that because the god of the Bible is not gender-neutral and portrayed as a masculine warrior god, with a bias towards the male and against the female, it strongly appears that Yahweh was created in the minds of men and fashioned after themselves.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Beck,

    A true creator god would be gender-neutral and balanced...meaning neither male or female. My premise is that because the god of the Bible is not gender-neutral and portrayed as a masculine warrior god, with a bias towards the male and against the female, it strongly appears that Yahweh was created in the minds of men and fashioned after themselves.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    I'm not sure I follow you line of reasoning from Mark 10:11-12 It seem to be neutral or even on both sides, the man put away his wife or the woman put away her husband both would be consider adultery. So at lease in this context God show's no bias.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    I'm not sure I follow you line of reasoning from Mark 10:11-12 It seem to be neutral or even on both sides, the man put away his wife or the woman put away her husband both would be consider adultery. So at lease in this context God show's no bias.
    One must go back to the law of Moses from which Jesus was drawing. In the Law of Moses, stated in the Bible to be given from God, the man was allowed to divorce his wife if she lost favor in his eyes, that same privilege was not given to a woman.
    Deut. 24:1-2 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
    The Old Testament is the context from which we must begin to understand the nature of the "God" of the Bible, and from that context we see that "God" does indeed have a bias toward the male. This "God" of the Old Testament is the same God that Jesus calls his father which is definitely not a gender-neutral god.

    Yahweh in the Old Testament is presented as a masculine, dominator god who holds a double standard when it comes to women...what is allowed for men is not allowed for women. In fact women were considered the property of the man, by the standard set forth by Yahweh. These are issues that must be dealt with in order to come to any real understanding of who the God of the Bible really is.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    I'm not sure I follow you line of reasoning from Mark 10:11-12 It seem to be neutral or even on both sides, the man put away his wife or the woman put away her husband both would be consider adultery. So at lease in this context God show's no bias.
    That's fascinating ... I was under the impression that the Bible never said a woman could divorce her husband. I thought only men could divorce their wives. I'm gonna look into this more.

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