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  1. #121
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    1

    The harlot church

    This was bound to happen sooner or later...the evangelical movement is beginning to reveal itself as the tares which were spoken of in the gospels. Everywhere around us, their leaders are falling away, corrupt by the wealth they have collected from their unseeing congregations. The blind has led the blind, and they are all falling into the ditch. But any serious student of the gospel should have seen this coming. The pop gospel bears some resemblance to the truth, but it has proven to be a cocktail of a little of the truth shaken and stirred with a whole lot of deception. Hagee has now set himself up as God, he feels powerful enough to refute the Word and preach as he sees fit. And a mass is following him. Those who are too lazy to read for themselves, or who just want to have their ears tickled, have followed this pied piper and many others like him.

    That woman with the cup of apostasy in her hand, decked in scarlet and purple, is so easily identified!

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    2,046
    Quote Originally Posted by kady View Post
    This was bound to happen sooner or later...the evangelical movement is beginning to reveal itself as the tares which were spoken of in the gospels. Everywhere around us, their leaders are falling away, corrupt by the wealth they have collected from their unseeing congregations. The blind has led the blind, and they are all falling into the ditch. But any serious student of the gospel should have seen this coming. The pop gospel bears some resemblance to the truth, but it has proven to be a cocktail of a little of the truth shaken and stirred with a whole lot of deception. Hagee has now set himself up as God, he feels powerful enough to refute the Word and preach as he sees fit. And a mass is following him. Those who are too lazy to read for themselves, or who just want to have their ears tickled, have followed this pied piper and many others like him.

    That woman with the cup of apostasy in her hand, decked in scarlet and purple, is so easily identified!
    I feel sad because Hagee did a video when he was in Israel about the symbolism of the Tabernacle and its' objects. These preachers seem to have quite a bit of understanding to leave you with awe, yet they lead people astray!

    Now supposed I popped in a video of Hagee to an Arab or someone from the middle east. How would they feel when they know that this guy takes Israel's side all the time?

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    2
    I must confess that I am a newbie and haven't had time to read the entire thread yet. I am compelled to make this comment though.
    I am a little confused as to why people are so shocked by Hagee's conclusion that Jesus was not the Messiah.
    Is this not the logical conclusion of extreme "dispensationalism"? So many Christians are unaware of the fact that this theological construct is a relatively recent innovation to Christian theology having nothing to do with Biblical orthodoxy or sound Bible interpretation.
    Unfortunately it has been swallowed hook-line-and sinker by contemporary evangelical and pentecostal Christians as though it has always been the truely orthodox understanding of the Christian faith.
    If you really research its roots you will find bizarre interpretations (for example the four gospels not being written for Christians etc.) based on a racist understanding of the gospel. Two plans of salvation based upon a racial/biological understanding of scripture rather than a spiritual one.
    John Hagee is only taking this heretical system of Bible interpretation to its logical conclusion.
    And Oh, by the way, if orthodox Judaism is where our focus should be then John Hagee should be looking at New York City - I think there are actually more Orthodox there than in Israel!
    If on the other hand a biological claim to Judaism is what matters, then the vast majority of Jewish people are out of the equation - having only a claim to mass Ashkenazim conversions.
    Besides there never has been such a thing as a Jewish race - only a human race - divided into believers or unbelivers in the true God.
    If the physical decendents of physical Israel must re-institute the temple sacrifices (even though the Bible says that the Israelites of the flesh are not the children of God and that the unbelieving Israelites have been broken off from the singular olive tree of the true faith who's root is Jesus) - then this would constitute a blasphemous enterprise of the highest order, since Jesus died once for all.
    If Jesus did not come as Messiah to the Jewish people then why shouldn't they re-constitute the sacrificial system?
    It is not only John Hagee's ministry that should be condemned as heretical, but the entire system of dispensationalism upon which it stands.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Hi Voktar,

    Welcome to our forum!



    Quote Originally Posted by Voktar View Post
    I must confess that I am a newbie and haven't had time to read the entire thread yet. I am compelled to make this comment though.

    I am a little confused as to why people are so shocked by Hagee's conclusion that Jesus was not the Messiah.
    Is this not the logical conclusion of extreme "dispensationalism"? So many Christians are unaware of the fact that this theological construct is a relatively recent innovation to Christian theology having nothing to do with Biblical orthodoxy or sound Bible interpretation.
    Unfortunately it has been swallowed hook-line-and sinker by contemporary evangelical and pentecostal Christians as though it has always been the truely orthodox understanding of the Christian faith.
    If you really research its roots you will find bizarre interpretations (for example the four gospels not being written for Christians etc.) based on a racist understanding of the gospel. Two plans of salvation based upon a racial/biological understanding of scripture rather than a spiritual one.
    John Hagee is only taking this heretical system of Bible interpretation to its logical conclusion.
    It's sad but true. The "dispensational" teachings have pretty much been taken for granted by "pop" Christianity. I think it is largely because authors like Hal Lindsey trumpeted the formation of the modern secular state of Israel as the supposed fulfillment of prophecies about Biblical Israel. So many felt justified to start DATE SETTING year after year. It didn't matter that they were always wrong. The date setting continues, even to this day. There was a flourish of excitement last year because it was the 60th aniversary since 1948. But as these years go by, it is finally becoming self-evident that the initial claims that the so-called "rebirth" of Israel gives no real support for the dispensational doctrines.

    The real problem with dispensational doctrines is that they are based on little more than bits and pieces of Bible verses taken out of context and connected with a web of groundless speculations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Voktar View Post
    And Oh, by the way, if orthodox Judaism is where our focus should be then John Hagee should be looking at New York City - I think there are actually more Orthodox there than in Israel!
    Ha! That is funny. And it reminds me that Hagee ignores and minimizes Christian Jews (the Messianics) in favor of pandering to the "real Jews" - that is, the unbelievers! Its an amazing perversion of the Gospel. But after reading Hagee's responses to criticism, I am getting the idea that he really doesn't understand the first thing about the Bible. So in that sense, I can't "blame" him for being so far off-base with his understanding of the Jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voktar View Post
    If on the other hand a biological claim to Judaism is what matters, then the vast majority of Jewish people are out of the equation - having only a claim to mass Ashkenazim conversions.
    That's interesting. I didn't know there was a mass conversion. I usually look at things the other way around. If genetics is what matters, then everyone is a "son of Abraham" because of the way that population dynamics works. Everyone is related to everone else. The Jews have been mixing with Gentiles for long enough now so almost everyone has at least one or two Jewish ancestors somewhere in the geneology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Voktar View Post
    Besides there never has been such a thing as a Jewish race - only a human race - divided into believers or unbelivers in the true God.
    If the physical decendents of physical Israel must re-institute the temple sacrifices (even though the Bible says that the Israelites of the flesh are not the children of God and that the unbelieving Israelites have been broken off from the singular olive tree of the true faith who's root is Jesus) - then this would constitute a blasphemous enterprise of the highest order, since Jesus died once for all.
    Amen! I could not agree more. The carnal aspect was a TYPE of what was to come. The Bible declares that only believers in Jesus Christ are counted as the "seed" of Abraham. It has absolutely nothing to do with carnal genealogies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voktar View Post
    If Jesus did not come as Messiah to the Jewish people then why shouldn't they re-constitute the sacrificial system?
    It is not only John Hagee's ministry that should be condemned as heretical, but the entire system of dispensationalism upon which it stands.
    Well, I am inclined to agree, but I think we need to distinguish between heresy and hermeneutical error. I think of heresy as something that explicitly denies the faith, as when Hagee denied that Christ came to be Messiah. For the most part, dispensationalism is just a bunch of really bad biblical interpretations. But that is not to be minimized because it leads directly to heresies like Hagee's.

    It sounds like you might have a lot to offer over in our eschatology forum. A lot of dicussion is centered on who is "Israel" and how "Israel" relates to the Church.

    Again, welcome to our forum Voktar.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2
    Very impressed by your reply Richard. Thank you for taking the time to respond to this newbie. I hope to to be able to participate more here at the Bible Wheel.
    Again, thanks for the welcome,
    Victor

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