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Thread: Judas Iscariot

  1. #11
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    The "rightly dividing" may well be a precept given in the OT when the feet of the priests got wet and they had to carry the Ark of Testimony even further; maybe 'cause all that gold made it an "Ark" to heavy to float?
    The "Waters divided" referred to liquid rivers and wells in the OT, but the Water that Jesus offered to the Samaritan woman in John 4 was speaking 'figurative'. John6:63 refers. Didn't mean to interrupt, but looked like a good time to jump in.. :smilie:
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    The "rightly dividing" may well be a precept given in the OT when the feet of the priests got wet and they had to carry the Ark of Testimony even further; maybe 'cause all that gold made it an "Ark" to heavy to float?
    The "Waters divided" referred to liquid rivers and wells in the OT, but the Water that Jesus offered to the Samaritan woman in John 4 was speaking 'figurative'. John6:63 refers. Didn't mean to interrupt, but looked like a good time to jump in.. :smilie:
    There's no problem with "interrupting" - all comments are welcome anywhere in the forum.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #13
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    CAPSTONE?

    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Richard...there is something I would like you to consider. I believe the Bible Wheel is a literal multidimensional model of the purified word...or "the word made flesh". However....there is another element that I believe is added to the "rolling" process you have submitted the 66 books of the bible to, and that is the Et Kol, which is then put in motion to "rightly divide it".

    http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/CapstoneSignature.asp
    Don't know about the Et Kol, but have meditated about the LWH measurments of the city in Rev20 -- wondering if it might be a pyramid rather than a cube (or what difference it would make?), and thinking about putting a CAPSTONE on a 3-sided pyramid because of 1Cor12:5 where we learn about the differing administrations but the same LORD.
    This register with you in any way?
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  4. #14

    Rose have you considered

    if the whole bible was all of man's authorship YOU AND RAM WOULD NOT HAVE YOUR BIBLE WHEEL?

    YOU WHEEL is a supernatural design that NO man would have worked it out no matter how clever his/her mind is.

    therefore who sowed the seeds of doubt into you and rams mind?
    you swallowed a seed thought and now it has taken root, and this root is now denying your bible wheel.

    so, whoever convinced you both that all the bible is a sham is from satan.
    the bible wheel has the ABILITY TO TAKE ONE OUT FROM THE MATRIX, but you and ram have not yet escaped.


    you turned back like Lot's wife.

    like i have said before SEEKING THE TRUTH is hard work, like an olympian busting his guts out for a laurel wreath. FINDING THE TRUTH IS EVEN HARDER BECAUSE ALL FORMER BELIEFS dont want to go.

    all those contradictions are put there like stumbling blocks and the weak in faith shall stub their toes on these things see them and turn away.

    the divine thing is to a find out what they mean, AND SEEK WISDOM FOR NO MAN can teach us.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Who purchased the field? Luke says Judas and Matthew says the priests. This is a flat out contradiction. So now you need to invent another speculation to "harmonize" these two stories. Most folks claim that we can say Judas bought the field because the priests used his money when they bought the field. Fine. But note, that's not what the text says, and so you are adding to Scripture if you choose to tell that tale.


    And just so you know, I've never seriously thought about this before. My answer just came off the top of my head. There are many things I need to research to strengthen my case, but I can't imagine how anyone could hold to the story you told. Why do you believe something that has so much evidence against it and none for it?
    The emphasis of the account in acts isn't who physically bought the field, but about replacing Judas who's moral actions cause the field to be bought thus fulfilling prophecy. The wording SEEMS to indicate that Judas actually purchased the field, but the emphasis of the disciples is that Judas was responsible for the betrayal which resulted in the purchase of a filed to bury 'strangers'. Again, the emphasis of the context is on replacing Judas, not with giving a minute by minute detailed account of Judas. The mention of Judas is in passing and secondary and the statements must be read in that tone.

    I'll admit that the timing of the purchase SEEMS to present a dilema. But we don't know if the leaders were perhaps eyeing up this field for some months....and now they had the funds to purchase it...almost as if it had been prearranged to fulfill prophecy. This fulfilled prophecy is even stated in the one account.
    But there are other much larger problems. First, you now have to assume that Judas went and hung himself NOT in the field that he himself bought (as Acts states), but in the field that the priests bought. Isn't that a little odd? Are we supposed to believe that Judas, wracked with grief and guilt, somehow found out that the priests had bought a field with his money (how would he know that) and that the field "just happened" to have a tree from which he could hang himself? That's a lot of "logic" and "forethought" for a man caught in the throes of suicidal guilt.
    They would be the same field, and the actual physical purchase would have been by the Priests. Judas threw the money back to the temple priests even though they rejected his 'repentance'. Judas may not have had the funds to buy another field. This is part of the support for the causative understanding of Peters words that Judas 'purchased' the field. Judas' purchase of the field is not the primary subject of the account in Acts thus it is not required to be detailed.
    And there's yet another problem based of the order of events implied in Matthew. The text says that Judas repented, threw the money to the priests, and then "departed and hung himself." It is only then, after Judas hung himself, that the priests bought the field. So now we have to invent yet another weird scenario in which the priests go and purchase the field where Judas is hanging. But they couldn't do that, because the priests could not by land that was defiled with a dead body hanging from a tree! But even if they did purchase the defiled field, the order of events in Matthew and Acts are incompatible.
    I'll admit that the timing of the purchase SEEMS to present a dilema. But we don't know if the leaders were perhaps eyeing up this field for some months....and now they had the funds to purchase it. But the rest of your assertions of not being able to buy a field with a body hanging above it would be unfounded. They purchased the field with money that originated with the price of the blood of a man hung from a tree. This according to your perspective of Jewish law would also be unlawful.
    It would actually be fitting that Judas hung himself and died there AND fitting that the Pharisees were the ones to by the field for him.

    We read a testimony of things that occurred 2000 yrs ago and which testimony was written to people who had lived in the surrounding region and within 30 yrs of their occurrences. It is difficult or impossible to reconstruct the events from these records alone and while using our literalistic, codified, and sometimes judgmental reading rather then historical, conversational contextual readings.

    Reading the acts account as if it required the field to be physically purchased by Judas should be easy to be reconsidered by you Ram, since you oppose the literal, codified readings and interpretations of prophecies. This is a similar instance in which the intentions and context of the words and paragraphs are not a historical account of Judas, but are in the context of needing to replace him and the process of that replacement.

    It would not be an impossibility that they used the money the very next morning to buy the field. And Judas, wandering around, and despondent, hung himself above the very field that they would have bought, unknowing to him, a few hours earlier.... or even a few hours later. MUCH, MUCH, more supernatural occurrences happened even of Christ dying at the exact same time of the passover lamb of the 'old' covenant'. Events are pre-ordained for his children to walk in; so also especially since this was a fulfillment of prophecy of Jeremiah, it would not at all be incongruous for the Pharisees to buy the very field in which Judas would die for the betrayal which resulted in the blood of Christ. In fact it would be rather confirming of the events.

    And now we come to the greatest contradiction of all. Matthew tells us that Judas was REPENTANT whereas Acts says that he "bought the field with the "reward of iniquity" - giving no indication whatsoever that he was repentant. The fact that his guts spilled out on the very field he bought with the reward of iniquity is a classic expression of "divine retribution" upon an unrepentant sinner common in the ancient near east and the Bible.
    30 pieces was still the reward of iniquity. Once a person makes an act, even though they repent of the act or decision, the ramifications and effects of that act or decision can often not be reversed. Judas caused the fore-known and fore-planned events through his betrayal. But it was yet the Priests who physically bought the field. Judas himself proclaimed that he had born false testimony which in his mind resulted in the condemnation of an innocent man. His testimony, betrayal and assistance was bought with Silver. From recollection, they had told Judas that they only wished to question him and inquire about his teachings. After seeing Jesus condemned, he repented of having any part in it. But it's unknown if he repented of any disbelief in Christ being God incarnate and the power and ability to forgive.

    In Matt 5, judas is first singled out as a betrayer. In that passage, Jesus tells his disciples who were seeing him and believing in him that He would raise them up on the last day. We've been taught to think of this as the 'last day' of the earth or an age into a physical resurrection. But what 'last day' was Jesus referring to? And what 'raising up' was he referring to? I think he was referring to his disciples being raised up and vindicated for their faith in him after the resurrection. It was the 'last day' of the law of sin/death and of disbelief and of the oppressive power and administration of the law of Moses. Both powers were dissolved. The disciples had been believing in Him against the teachings of the High Priests. Now, after he was crucified, they surely couldn't' return to their teachings, nor would they want to. I can imagine the 'lostness' and fear of the Priests who would surely be coming after them in time. In the same context, Judas is referred to as an adversary. He, Judas, did not hang around Jerusalem in blind faith and hope or uncertainty and disillusionment as the other disciples. Judas did not participate in the raising up of their spirits and the confirmation and vindication of their hope and faith.

    Judas was repentant against the law, but perhaps not repentant against lack of faith in Christ and his Deity and power of forgiveness to even him. He still apparently trusted the high priests authority when they said; What is that to us... you take care of your own guilt and business.

    I don't see much here to make a HUGE case for contradiction in the bible, but rather for supernatural foreknowledge and fore ordination of the acts of those involved. If we reject the supernatural pre-arrangement and control of these times, then yes, there is room for questioning and accusations of contradictions.

    This isn't a big problem with me at all, but it seems to be a big issue for those seeking to find contradictions and untruths.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 06-04-2011 at 08:57 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2by''s View Post
    if the whole bible was all of man's authorship YOU AND RAM WOULD NOT HAVE YOUR BIBLE WHEEL?

    YOU WHEEL is a supernatural design that NO man would have worked it out no matter how clever his/her mind is.

    therefore who sowed the seeds of doubt into you and rams mind?
    you swallowed a seed thought and now it has taken root, and this root is now denying your bible wheel.

    so, whoever convinced you both that all the bible is a sham is from satan.
    the bible wheel has the ABILITY TO TAKE ONE OUT FROM THE MATRIX, but you and ram have not yet escaped.


    you turned back like Lot's wife.

    like i have said before SEEKING THE TRUTH is hard work, like an olympian busting his guts out for a laurel wreath. FINDING THE TRUTH IS EVEN HARDER BECAUSE ALL FORMER BELIEFS dont want to go.

    all those contradictions are put there like stumbling blocks and the weak in faith shall stub their toes on these things see them and turn away.

    the divine thing is to a find out what they mean, AND SEEK WISDOM FOR NO MAN can teach us.
    Hi 2by"s

    SEEKING THE TRUTH of what the Bible Wheel really means is precisely what has lead me to the point where I'm at now. Neither Richard, or I have ever said the Bible is a "sham", in fact it is far from that. As I have said many times I believe the Bible contains wisdom, and truth...I just don't believe it is the word of God.

    The Bible is a book that has been written and formed from the ideas of men, I believe many of those ideas could have come from the influence of what I call the Collective Cosmic Consciousness which guides people through connections in dreams, intuitions, meditations and visions. What I reject is the idea that the Bible is a moral guide book given by a war god, named Yahweh.

    The design of the Bible Wheel is supernatural, and neither Richard, or I are denying that...what we are exploring is how this supernatural design could have come to be. After a year and a half of intense study and research there is no way I could ever go back to believing the Bible is the word of God.

    A book that is fraught with so many contradictions, moral abominations, falsehoods, and biased inequality against women makes the God of the Bible out to be a petty tyrant, and a moral monster!

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  7. #17

    to rose

    Hi Rose
    if you see the MONSTER can you see a the LOVER as well?
    the ying and the yang

    another point is'

    if you see the MONSTER are you infact seeing yourself as a reflection?perhaps the bible is a looking glass

    here is an ancient question Rose.
    who told you, you were naked??
    you once were content - so who told you - you were naked?
    who whispered ''Rose you are naked'?

    is it possible Rose if you saw the LOVER YOU WOULD NEVER SEE THE MONSTER?


    it was never a library book.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2by''s View Post
    Hi Rose
    if you see the MONSTER can you see a the LOVER as well?
    the ying and the yang

    another point is'

    if you see the MONSTER are you infact seeing yourself as a reflection? perhaps the bible is a looking glass


    here is an ancient question Rose.
    who told you, you were naked??
    you once were content - so who told you - you were naked?
    who whispered ''Rose you are naked'?

    is it possible Rose if you saw the LOVER YOU WOULD NEVER SEE THE MONSTER?


    it was never a library book.
    Hi 2by"s

    I gave legitimate reasons for calling the God of the Bible a "moral monster", because of the actions he is portrayed as commanding.

    What legitimate reasons do you have for saying the monster I am seeing is a reflection of myself?

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2by''s View Post
    is it possible Rose if you saw the LOVER YOU WOULD NEVER SEE THE MONSTER?
    Exactly how can one not see the moral horror of murdering babies? Does your vision of your beloved blind you to the evils of murder?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Kathyrn

    I think we need to understand the real meaning of "rightly dividing" the Bible, and that is seeing it for what it really is: a book of human authorship, relating mans experiences of what they perceive to be the Divine.

    Rose
    "Rightly dividing the word of truth" has an understanding of how a ship divides the waters as it sets a straight course to it's goal. The captain keeps his vision vocused on the land or the goal and the waters fall on either side. He keeps his 'eyes on the prize' and his faith set on the truth that he knows within. The 'untruths' fall down around him.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 06-04-2011 at 12:48 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

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