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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Same as "Biblical curse of being a Woman" when it should be "Biblical curse of being both Man and Woman" or "Did God cursed Woman more than Man?".
    I find it very difficult to understand why you continue to miss the point of that thread. It has nothing to do with the idea that God curse all humans, both male and female, in the Bible. The POINT is that the Bible displays a MALE BIAS AGAINST WOMEN. This is totally obvious from the first line of the first post in that thread where she wrote:

    A common theme that runs through most of the worlds’ major religions devised by men is the MISTREATMENT, and INEQUALITY of women.

    Why don't you understand her point?
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  2. #12
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey ... that's great! I always feel good when we admit our own biases. Everyone has some bias this way or that ... it's good to be open and upfront about it. It makes for good conversation.
    Agree.

    I don't see how the word "require" implies a bias. Let's not be too picky about words, OK?
    Well, "require" sounds more demanding than "want" to me.

    As for the title of the thread "The Moral argument against God" I don't see why you would want to change it, since you already started a thread called "The Moral Argument FOR God." So both views are represented here. And besides, it wouldn't make any sense to combine those two arguments in a single thread because they are totally different:

    1) The Moral Argument FOR God says there wouldn't be any absolute basis for morality if there were not a God, and there are absolute morals, so God exists.

    2) The Moral Argument AGAINST God says that the actions attributed to God in the Bible are immoral, and therefore that God does not exist.

    These are totally different arguments.
    As a matter of fact, my thread, "The Moral Argument FOR God" is mainly to counteract the thread on "The Moral Argument Against God" so that the argument is more balanced. "For God" puts God in a positive light than "Against God". It is always good to put God in a positive light, for without God, we won't be here today... so is the world.

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I don't see how the word "require" implies a bias. Let's not be too picky about words, OK?
    Well, "require" sounds more demanding than "want" to me.
    Yes, but does not the Bible generally present the "wants" of God as commands? He is, after all, presented as the ALMIGHTY "KING of kings" and "LORD of lords" and "Every knee shall bend" to Him, and so on and so forth. So it seems pretty reasonable to ask why God "requires" praise. Or would you say that God does not require it? What is the fate of a person who REFUSES to praise God?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    As a matter of fact, my thread, "The Moral Argument FOR God" is mainly to counteract the thread on "The Moral Argument Against God" so that the argument is more balanced. "For God" puts God in a positive light than "Against God". It is always good to put God in a positive light, for without God, we won't be here today... so is the world.
    I think you have a big misunderstanding here. The word "FOR" in the "Argument FOR God" is just short-hand for the longer phrase "The Moral Argument FOR THE EXISTENCE of God." It has nothing to do with the idea of "FOR" in the sense of "thinking nice thoughts about" as you suggest. And likewise, the word "AGAINST" merely means "AGAINST THE EXISTENCE OF" - not in the sense of "thinking bad thoughts about."

    It seems you have mistaken logical arguments FOR or AGAINST the existence of God with emotional statements FOR or AGAINST a God that you assume exists.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post

    A common theme that runs through most of the worlds’ major religions devised by men is the MISTREATMENT, and INEQUALITY of women.
    Reading through these post I came to this one and begun to think why is that? I would guess one part of this thread would have to do with that the man is in the image of God. In so the man desires praise or placed higher than the woman much like God himself. Would that be something embedded into man?

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Yes indeed, that is a classic criticism of Abrahamic Theism (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). It makes no sense to anyone, and the attempts to rationalize it only emphasize its absurdity.

    I think it is just another aspect of the patriarchal "Dominator" model of God as the ABSOLUTE RULER before whom every worthless creature will bend the knee.





    God made you, with out god you would not be born?so all the things you have joyed in life is because of god, praise god for it

    In the kingdom of heaven, there with god you will have glorious joy and glorious happiness for ever and ever amen, praise god

    God is the potter god knows what makes us happy? sin make us un happy? Reject Satans ways which is sin. Put your trust in the lord rose

    I will pray for you my sister in Jesus Christ
    Last edited by paul123; 07-09-2011 at 11:22 AM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul123 View Post
    God made you, with out god you would not be born?so all the things you have joyed in life is because of god, praise god for it
    My mom "made" me, and certainly without her I would not be born, but that does not mean I should "praise" her for getting pregnant.

    You assumption that "God" made me is also held by Muslims. Does that mean I should praise Allah?

    Quote Originally Posted by paul123 View Post
    In the kingdom of heaven, there with god you will have glorious joy and glorious happiness for ever and ever amen, praise god
    That's nice and all, but you don't actually know it is true. You are just repeating things you have read. If you were Hindu, you'd be telling me about the great glories in the heavenly places of Brahma. What's the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by paul123 View Post
    God is the potter god knows what makes us happy? sin make us un happy? Reject Satans ways which is sin. Put your trust in the lord ram

    I will pray for you my brother in Jesus Christ
    I don't follow "Satan's ways" so I don't need to "reject" them.

    So what do you think will happen to me if I don't follow your advice to "trust the Lord?"
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    My mom "made" me, and certainly without her I would not be born, but that does not mean I should "praise" her for getting pregnant.

    You assumption that "God" made me is also held by Muslims. Does that mean I should praise Allah?


    That's nice and all, but you don't actually know it is true. You are just repeating things you have read. If you were Hindu, you'd be telling me about the great glories in the heavenly places of Brahma. What's the difference?


    I don't follow "Satan's ways" so I don't need to "reject" them.

    So what do you think will happen to me if I don't follow your advice to "trust the Lord?"













    I prayed for you ram today to god through Jesus Christ I felt the holy spirit as I was singing my heart out to god for you, this day for the rest of your life Jesus will guild you to him so no one is lost AMEN

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul123 View Post
    I prayed for you ram today to god through Jesus Christ I felt the holy spirit as I was singing my heart out to god for you, this day for the rest of your life Jesus will guild you to him so no one is lost AMEN
    Maybe you should pray for God to give you the wisdom you need to answer my questions and correct my errors. That would be interesting ....
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  9. #19
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Have you ever asked yourself the question, “Why does God require praise?” If one does a comparative study between the work of a human and the work of God, the outcome is very interesting. Take for instance a woman carrying a child: all through her pregnancy term she does everything she knows to ensure her child is born healthy, after birth and for the entire time she raises the child she sacrifices and commits her life to giving her child the best education and living environment possible. Her child may or may not praise, and thank her for what she has done, but that is not the reason for her commitment to his care.

    Now let's take a look at the God portrayed in the Bible: he is said to be the creator of all and he requires continual thanksgiving, and praise from his creation for his creative works, though he does not always do everything possible (considering his omnipotence) to ensure the well being of his children. He allows them to commit fatal errors through ignorance, die of diseases and hunger, gives unfair laws which allows the abuse of the female half of creation to name just a few, yet over, and over again in the pages of Scripture we see God angrily lashing out at his people for their lack of praise. What’s up with that? It seems we humans are better parents than God.


    Rose

    I think I can answer this, actually. A couple of years ago I was doing research for a class I was taking in law school - I was writing a paper, the topic of which isn't particularly relevant, except that, at one point my research veered off on an unexpected direction, and I ended up discovering the significance of self-deception in the lawmaking process. This self-deception is caused by selective reasoning - Whenever lawmakers have to consider a policy that potentially affects their own interests, that is, whenever their own material interests conflict with their ethical duties, they unconsciously stop themselves from thinking consciously about the ethical implications of the decisions they make. This allows them to make decisions and take actions that their conscience would otherwise prevent. It's almost as if people turn their brains off - rejecting knowledge - preventing them from realizing what they are doing. It is the cause of unethical behavior. In other words, it is the cause of crime, corruption, war, you name it. I think this is what is meant by "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee..." However, if people spend their lives praising God, strengthening the mental association between decision making and God, it makes this sort of selective reasoning much harder to engage in. If the association is strong enough, the moment a person becomes unconsciously aware of an ethical dilemma, the "God circuitry" lights up, leading to conscious awareness, ie, preventing self-deception, and preventing unethical behavior.

    Ironically, "rejecting knowledge" like this has some pretty dramatic side-effects. Basically, whenever somebody has to justify or even discuss some unethical decision they made, they go back into self-deception mode - they turn their brains off again, to keep themselves from realizing that they did something wrong. As a result, they say extremely stupid things - comically stupid, things nobody would ever in a million years say if they put two seconds of thought into it. If everybody understood this, unethical behavior would be a thing of the past.

    Michael
    Last edited by Mike; 07-20-2011 at 09:59 PM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I think I can answer this, actually. A couple of years ago I was doing research for a class I was taking in law school - I was writing a paper, the topic of which isn't particularly relevant, except that, at one point my research veered off on an unexpected direction, and I ended up discovering the significance of self-deception in the lawmaking process. This self-deception is caused by selective reasoning - Whenever lawmakers have to consider a policy that potentially affects their own interests, that is, whenever their own material interests conflict with their ethical duties, they unconsciously stop themselves from thinking consciously about the ethical implications of the decisions they make. This allows them to make decisions and take actions that their conscience would otherwise prevent. It's almost as if people turn their brains off - rejecting knowledge - preventing them from realizing what they are doing. It is the cause of unethical behavior. In other words, it is the cause of crime, corruption, war, you name it. I think this is what is meant by "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee..." However, if people spend their lives praising God, strengthening the mental association between decision making and God, it makes this sort of selective reasoning much harder to engage in. If the association is strong enough, the moment a person becomes unconsciously aware of an ethical dilemma, the "God circuitry" lights up, leading to conscious awareness, ie, preventing self-deception, and preventing unethical behavior.

    Ironically, "rejecting knowledge" like this has some pretty dramatic side-effects. Basically, whenever somebody has to justify or even discuss some unethical decision they made, they go back into self-deception mode - they turn their brains off again, to keep themselves from realizing that they did something wrong. As a result, they say extremely stupid things - comically stupid, things nobody would ever in a million years say if they put two seconds of thought into it. If everybody understood this, unethical behavior would be a thing of the past.

    Michael
    Very interesting post. I agree about how folks fall into self-deception through self-interest, but I don't think praising God helps at all because I have too many counter-examples - namely, all the fundamentalist Christians, especially the professional apologists, who defend the Bible as the "inerrant and infallible Word of God" appear to me to be more self-deceived than lawyers and lawmakers. It doesn't matter how much time they spend in praise.

    But it is an interesting angle you take. I can see why you would think that to be "connected to God" through prayer and praise would help folks be less self-deceived. I just don't think it actually works out that way because there is nothing about "praising God" that breaks a person out of their habits of self-interest which leads to self-deception. And there is another problem - the Bible doesn't actually say we should praise God for the reasons you suggest.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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