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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    It's a logical and reasonable outcome of the evidence of a creator and from the characteristics and depth of his Creation, namely man.
    That doesn't prove anything about Christianity. The same argument applies to Islam. But that's not particularly significant, because the argument is false anyway. The complexity of the universe and the existence of man does not prove anything about the existence of the Christian God. There is any infinity of other possibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    But as many make the point; Jesus is THE WORD of God and the written word is the confirmation and testimony about Him and the Creator/Father.
    That is an entirely circular argument without any validity whatsoever.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    And if your parents were Muslim, what do you suppose you would be believing today?
    Muslims don't claim that Mohammed was Creator God in Flesh. They think of him as A Prophet, and the greatest prophet of all, co-equal with Jesus. But they think of Mohammed as 'the prophet' of Deut 18.

    This cannot be as the effects of his coming did not establish the new covenant, new heavens, earth, nor do away with the power of the old. Mohammed did not satisfy the actions of the office of the 'new prophet'. Jesus did.

    If I would believe in a Creator and a Loving Creator, of which there is great evidence in his creation; and of which I do believe; and if he had Created and formed man in his image of intelligence, and able to facilitate both spoken and written language and communication; would it be logical that this Loving creator would reveal and confirm aspects of himself and eternal life through those means? YES!!!, it would be logical and reasonable that this loving Creator would confirm aspects of himself, his ways and will; of Life, and His Love through the means of intelligent verbal and written records and communication.

    Would it be logical and reasonable to consider that this LOVING and Good creator would leave a relatively [or very] reliable record of his communication.?? Yes, it would be relatively logical and reasonable to consider such occurrence.

    Would it also be reasonable and logical for that loving creator to enter into his creation to give and confirm ample evidence of himself and his will and ways of life in order to satisfy any doubts and disbelief about him?? Yes, it would.

    This would be a major difference between Islam and 'The Way' to and with the Father/Creator. Islam, I think, views Jesus as another prophet. The Chistian biblical concept is that the Creator himself came in the incarnation in the form of a man, making himself a little lower than the angels [in stature, rank and position] for a time. Hence both son of God, Son of man.

    Islam, like judaism, to be honest, should then condemn Christ as a false prophet or twist the intent of his words, since Jesus claimed to be very God incarnate.

    Mohammed is not much different than Joseph Smith in some ways...
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 05-24-2011 at 08:51 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    And if your parents were Muslim, what do you suppose you would be believing today?
    Muslims don't claim that Mohammed was God in Flesh. They think of his as A Prophet, and the greatest prophet of all, co-equal with Jesus. But they think of Mohammed as 'the prophet' of Deut 18.

    This cannot be as the effects of his coming did not establish the new covenant, nor do away with the power of the old. Mohammed did not satisfy the office of the 'new prophet'.
    That doesn't answer the question I asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    If I would believe in a Creator and a Loving Creator, of which there is great evidence in his creation; and of which I do believe; and if he had Created man in his image of intelligence, and able to facilitate both spoken and written language; would it be logical that this Loving creator would reveal and confirm aspects of himself and eternal life through those means? YES!!!, it would be logical and reasonable that this loving Creator would confirm aspects of himself, his ways and will; of Life, and His Love through the means of intelligent verbal and written records.
    Yes! Yes! Yes! It WOULD be logical, and that's the problem. The Bible contains many contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to the God it describes. Therefore, by your own standard, you must reject the Bible as the Word of God. It may be "influenced" by God in some way, but it cannot be the "inerrant and infallible Word of God."

    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    Would it also be reasonable and logical for that loving creator to enter into his creation to give and confirm ample evidence of himself and his will and ways of life in order to satisfy any doubts and disbelief about him?? Yes, it would.
    This would be a major difference between Islam and 'The Way' to and with the Father/Creator.
    Sure, it may be logical, or maybe not. The Muslims certainly would not think so. But that's irrelevant because the mere fact something is a "reasonable" possibility does not mean it is true.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    That doesn't answer the question I asked.
    Sorry, I gave it a shot.

    Yes! Yes! Yes! It WOULD be logical, and that's the problem. The Bible contains many contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to the God it describes. Therefore, by your own standard, you must reject the Bible as the Word of God. It may be "influenced" by God in some way, but it cannot be the "inerrant and infallible Word of God."
    No, I understand it in a different way and through different glasses than you.

    He Created Good and allowed 'not good', aka 'evil', in order to triumph and reveal the good as cultivated from within through faith; not demanded from without.

    Paul talks about 'who can know the mind of God, but the Spirit of God. Oh the depth, knowledge, and love of God, and similar exclamations.

    If you come to God and accuse and judge him of being not good based on your present perceptions, understandings and observations, that not based on faith and aint' cutting it. Jesus said; If you call me Good, you call me God. He was reaffirming the very GOODNESS of the Creator in his Creation and calling them to consider himself as God. You would be inclined to say Jesus wasn't God, therefore his words had no authority on the matter of the Goodness of God.

    It was free willed and deep hearted man who rebelled with pride in Cain, disbelief and rebellion in babel, the Israelites who made the Golden calf and so forth. God just gave them over to and channeled their disbelief, rebellion, selfish desires and so forth while still permitting the free exercise of their hearts, motives, impatience, understanding etc towards the accomplishment of his proving of himself and his dominion.

    For God to be truly Lord of his Creation, his Goodness AND TRUTH must be reformed within the heart, motives and allowable free will of the most eminent part of his creation; MAN. Controlling and instructing the outward actions of man is only 1/4 OR 1/3 of the essence of that being.


    "Think Love/Goodness, you'll surround it" as Steve Miller says.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 05-24-2011 at 08:46 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    That doesn't answer the question I asked.
    Sorry, I gave it a shot.
    Did you? I asked Didymus why he believed the Bible, and he said "I have had that faith ever since I can remember, even before I have ever seen a Bible. I think I picked it up from my parents." So I asked "And if your parents were Muslim, what do you suppose you would be believing today?" As far as I can tell, your response had nothing to do with my question.

    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Yes! Yes! Yes! It WOULD be logical, and that's the problem. The Bible contains many contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to the God it describes. Therefore, by your own standard, you must reject the Bible as the Word of God. It may be "influenced" by God in some way, but it cannot be the "inerrant and infallible Word of God."
    No, I understand it in a different way and through different glasses than you.

    He Created Good and allowed 'not good', aka 'evil', in order to triumph and reveal the good as cultivated from within through faith; not from without.

    Paul talks about 'who can know the mind of God, but the Spirit of God.
    Oh the depth, knowledge, and love of God, and similar exclamations.

    If you come to God and accuse and judge him of being not good based on your present perceptions, understandings and observations, that not based on faith and aint' cutting it. Jesus said; If you call me Good, you call me God. He was reaffirming the very GOODNESS of the Creator in his Creation and calling them to consider himself as God.

    It was free willed and deep hearted man who rebelled in Cain, babel, the Israelites who made the Golden calf and so forth. God just gave them over to and channeled their disbelief, rebellion, selfish desires and so forth while still permitting the free exercise of their hearts, motives, impatience, understanding etc.

    For God to be truly Lord of his Creation, his Goodness AND TRUTH must be reformed within the heart, motives and allowable free will of the most eminent part of his creation; MAN. Controlling the outward actions of man is only 1/4 OR 1/3 of the essence of that being.


    "Think Love/Goodness, you'll surround it" as Steve Miller says.
    I am not "judging God." I am reading and understanding the words of the Bible and what it claims about "God." There is a world of difference here.

    Do you not understand that the Bible presents God as unjust, irrational, and repugnant when he commands all the men, women, and CHILDREN to be slaughtered, except for the virgins who were kept as sex-slaves and barely human reproductive units? And worse, God ordained that "his people" would wipe out the entire tribe of Benjamin, including all the women and children, leaving only 600 males, and was complicit in the murder of everyone in Jabesh-gilead except, ONCE AGAIN, the virgins who were taken to be raped for life by their kidnappers?

    Why do you claim to believe the Bible when in fact you ignore what it actually states?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #16
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    To not to question= Blind faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
    RAM,

    I am not convinced the Canon Divines were correct in their opinions of what did or did not belong in the canon. Those are intelligent opinions. But I have faith in the overall message, which is salvation through faith in Christ.

    I would like to make a statement of faith.I am a solid washed in the blood believer. Didymus you just mentioned Mis-translations, You didn't mention the many additions to the Bible by the [sign] of brackets, and there are many verses that have no brackets that are added. I would like to give as an example Rev 20:5.. That verse is an addition......This leads to confusion which God allows or Jesus would not have spake in parable to fulfill the prophets writings of who is to know of what he spoke.

    Now look at the confusion that has led to .....many false doctrines like two more false raptures. the White throne judgment being a 1,000 years later & HWA making a second chance doctrine and the list is just to great to mention.
    As far as to challenge God's sovereignty with free will is way off base in my opinion. Sure God is sovereign, but His giving of free will is evident by the many additions that has been allowed.That is why the spirit must guide us true believers to the truth. Through the discrepancies that many believers say don't exist.

    I am finally leaving the blind faith game and I have learned to ask my creator what is His truth & also I am learning to listen for the answers.

    I have my God to pray to & get answers about the mess that man has made of the Bible through his free will, that our adversary has used so well to cause such a riff.
    There is a great difference in questioning some of the words written in the Bible and questioning the Love, wisdom and power of our loving God

    The ones that question the authenticity of it being inspired by God as all unbelievers do, are left without a God to ask and to receive and that leads to no blessings & no truth from above. That leaves it at mere intelligence and blinding ones self to the spiritual truth of which the Bible has in overflowin abundance, and rejecting its healing waters. Now if I would say to these people that God does hear my prayers and gives me answers{in time}, the scoffers say, well old man you have quite an imagination.They are certainly entitled to say it also.

    That is the snare of the ones that leave the Bible as just a book written by man & some of it might contain truth.. They have OPENLY rejected the God of the Bible to take care of them. As their intelligence turns to ego they are slowly being led to deny God's existence or to throw away our safety net in the fact that Jesus was sent from above.And all of this is a lack of faith in a loving God, because the results of their ego leads to a mans made perception of the image of an unjust God....These have crossed the threshold from blind faith or DEAD faith into what they seem right to do, Some think they can write a better Bible or start a new religion.This is certainly there prerogative to do so and to try to nest with us other birds only brings forth a chirping & can bring forth pecking attacks of the insecure from our flock who will understandably try to send them back to there own flock, if they don't heed to the flocks nesting rules.

    If you can't see a loving God in the Bible, & you see nothing but a condoning of evil and a fearful tyrant, then who wants to pray to that kind of God.They gonna have to join another flock of birds, that accept their kind eventually that also chirp the same song.

    Didymus my friend, this is a go for yourself deal, as you very well know & understand... I would rather be in the pew and led by a preacher man in error and have "Blind Faith" than no faith. This type of faith will keep a person from the abyss, but they go into the spiritual Kingdom very poor indeed. You take that same blind faith & couple it with deeds of unselfish charity/LOVE and they then move into a living faith, because God will present Himself in some way to them to bolster their faith.You will receive a larger measure of love in return than you mete out.

    It will be a rude awakening to the many that think being saved is becoming a son of God.....But that is a misconception on their part as it is not Biblical. You have to have the LOVE & faith that Jesus displayed to become one with the Father & that is acquired in the spirit world after we are released from this forum/garment flesh.

    Birds of a feather flock together.... So indeed it is rare that a strange bird tries to nest/roost with a different flock, they generally stay with their own kind.
    Meaning:The strange bird is not going to change the habits nor become a leader of the flock they gathered with, nor when to tell the leader the time to head south.

    Take the strange bird Harold camping that the preterist have had for lunch, dinner & supper and still feasting on. This strange bird has not effected any futurists except for possibly his small flock.

    Intelligence, will get more people in trouble trying to solve the Bible, than a dim witted person. The dim witted believer will have more faith, and it more of a living faith, than blind faith. Simply because they are humble & full of love & believe what they can understand of what is taught to them by man about the word of God.They believe this with their heart, body, mind, & soul and therefore they are much more prepared for the spirit world. Just watch them, the believing dim witted ones are always full of love and have a caring for others that even make them weep upon hearing of the mishaps of others.

    I do believe the Bible was inspired of God, but man had the pencil and the intellect to write it, as it shows when only studying the words on an intellectual basis......So when questions arrive of the veracity of the bible in its whole and intellect takes over and leads to discounting the bible as the word of God, they have no God to pray to & lead them because they have no faith. So some keep looking for a divine text to drop from the sky that is signed & dated by some invisible being, because they want a God also to pray to, I suppose.Mostly they want proof, a sign or a guarantee when it takes faith & this the sign of ego being heavily at work

    A very high Intelligence can and often does lead to arrogance, a sense of being exalted above others, and a know it all of all things and the use of a vocabulary to present themselves as an intelligent person, no matter to whom they are talking to. But they can't get the truth out of a parable,or a spiritual meaning of scripture that has simple words because they lack the spirit to guide them and no faith in a higher intelligence than theirs.The disease of intelligence is pride & ego..... and rarely are the people that have it are humbled!But it surely serves this person in this world as to gather as much worldly possessions of which can not fit in their coffin and leaves them very poor when they pass to the spiritual realm after the body dies.

    Jesus said: "Whoever then humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a child like this in my name welcomes me".

    It all boils down to faith and a person has free will to decide accept or deny. That is what this game is about. Because the one with the living faith came from above to this slime hole of a world because He loves His brother even tho they are in a fallen state.This our spiritual brother did, to show us the way back home in the heavens.
    All in my humble opinion, Chas.
    Last edited by Charles Wade; 05-24-2011 at 11:14 AM.
    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Maybe the skepticism you are witnessing, especially from some whom you would least suspect, is a sign of the time we are in. Scoffers say....."If.....why......when....." because they may have not been granted the faith. Faith is a gift. Or, if once granted faith, it may become weak, without substance, and a foundation built upon sand.
    Now wait a minute!

    Are you really saying that SKEPTICS - folks who use their brains and ask intelligent questions like Rose and me - are to be classed with the damned "scoffers" in 2 Peter 3? That's not nice Joel.

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    The Word of God transmits, and transfers faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
    And what defines the Word of God? Are you Roman Catholic? Greek Orthodox? They have different Bibles. And where in the Bible does it list the correct books? ... Oh .. it doesn't?!? Then how do you know what the "Bible" even is? Have you ever thought of these questions? Why do you believe the "Bible" is the Word of God? Do you have any evidence? The Muslims believe the same thing about the Quran. Why are they wrong and you right?

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    The enemy to our faith in God's Word, and the faith arising from His Word, comes to steal it. It is a story as old as the garden. Twisting the Word, and accusing God of things which are not true to His character are peril to the scoffer and mocker.
    Ah, but you reject the Bible when it says things you don't like. For example, you reject the plain fact that Paul said we were dead IN sins in Colossians. And when I pointed this out to you, you quit the conversation rather than adjust your beliefs to conform to what the Bible really teaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Faith may become wavering......and......may take a wrong turn......heading for the rocks of the shipwrecked ex-believers of the past.

    God is able to preserve His Word, even when falsely translated. To the seeker of truth, a relationship with God will take the written Word, even when falsely translated, and speak the sure Word to the spirit.
    That's not true! There are countless errors based on bad translations. For example, most Christians think that "Lucifer" is the name of the Devil, which is totally false. And most Christians believe in an eternal unending hell, but you reject that. And on it goes - you years on this forum have shown that you have MANY beliefs that are totally different than most Christians.

    And besides all that, what does it matter what "beliefs" anyone has? This is the greatest error in all Christianity. People are taught that "believing" something without evidence is a "virtue" and that the most virtuous are those who cling to their unfounded belief in the face of solid contrary evidence.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #18
    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Did you? I asked Didymus why he believed the Bible, and he said "I have had that faith ever since I can remember, even before I have ever seen a Bible. I think I picked it up from my parents." So I asked "And if your parents were Muslim, what do you suppose you would be believing today?" As far as I can tell, your response had nothing to do with my question.
    The response I gave required thinking from that point onward. That thinking would gravitate to consider that If God is Creator and he Created men with the ability to have thoughts, questions, uncertainties, and insecurities about Him, life, death then he would provide satisfaction for those insecurities, questions and so forth. Even to the point to ask that if this was a Loving God, as evidenced from the depth of intricacies in his Highest creation, if he would come to earth himself to confirm his existence, and answer the insecurities, questions and so forth and to give internal Peace and knowledge of truth. Those are the differences between Islam and Christianity which can be arrived at through deductive reasoning and faith in a Loving God apart from what influence one is grown up in.

    I guess I expected you to read the replies in the second post before responding to the first answer.

    Since it was asked to Didy... and since I've now explained my answer.... we'll let Diddy respond.

    I am not "judging God." I am reading and understanding the words of the Bible and what it claims about "God." There is a world of difference here.

    Do you not understand that the Bible presents God as unjust, irrational, and repugnant when he commands [instructed, past tense] all the men, women, and CHILDREN to be slaughtered, except for the virgins who were kept as sex-slaves and barely human reproductive units? And worse, God ordained that "his people" would wipe out the entire tribe of Benjamin, including all the women and children, leaving only 600 males, and was complicit in the murder of everyone in Jabesh-gilead except, ONCE AGAIN, the virgins who were taken to be raped for life by their kidnappers?

    Why do you claim to believe the Bible when in fact you ignore what it actually states?
    This was answered partly in the last question. He gave them over [past tense] to and channeled their rebellious and stiffnecked nature in a way that would reveal himself and his love in a future generation. This was spoken to them when the covenant and instructions were given, In chapter 9 in Deuteronomy. This was temporal covenant and instruction; possibly to show them AND US the fruits of the henious way of disbelief and rebellion that would become like the babylonian cult religions. He declared it as 'not the good way in Is 65. Paul called it the way of the administration of death... due to it's frustration in not knowing God's perpetual blessing or obtaining peace and satisfaction by keeping the law.

    This is part of result of the free will in which He created man in his image and likeness combined with the absence of faith in Him and presence of rebellion from Cain and Nimrod onward.

    Recall that Moses himself did not partake of that covenant [though they battled in the wilderness in the formation of the militant nation]. Notice that the norther tribes left the covenant.

    I likely shouldn't have jumped in to this at this time. Other things n the go, though I appreciate the discussion, the opportunity to testify and the growth from interacting.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 05-25-2011 at 01:28 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    Muslims don't claim that Mohammed was Creator God in Flesh. They think of him as A Prophet, and the greatest prophet of all, co-equal with Jesus. But they think of Mohammed as 'the prophet' of Deut 18.

    This cannot be as the effects of his coming did not establish the new covenant, new heavens, earth, nor do away with the power of the old. Mohammed did not satisfy the actions of the office of the 'new prophet'. Jesus did.

    If I would believe in a Creator and a Loving Creator, of which there is great evidence in his creation; and of which I do believe; and if he had Created and formed man in his image of intelligence, and able to facilitate both spoken and written language and communication; would it be logical that this Loving creator would reveal and confirm aspects of himself and eternal life through those means? YES!!!, it would be logical and reasonable that this loving Creator would confirm aspects of himself, his ways and will; of Life, and His Love through the means of intelligent verbal and written records and communication.

    Would it be logical and reasonable to consider that this LOVING and Good creator would leave a relatively [or very] reliable record of his communication.?? Yes, it would be relatively logical and reasonable to consider such occurrence.

    Would it also be reasonable and logical for that loving creator to enter into his creation to give and confirm ample evidence of himself and his will and ways of life in order to satisfy any doubts and disbelief about him?? Yes, it would.

    This would be a major difference between Islam and 'The Way' to and with the Father/Creator. Islam, I think, views Jesus as another prophet. The Chistian biblical concept is that the Creator himself came in the incarnation in the form of a man, making himself a little lower than the angels [in stature, rank and position] for a time. Hence both son of God, Son of man.

    Islam, like judaism, to be honest, should then condemn Christ as a false prophet or twist the intent of his words, since Jesus claimed to be very God incarnate.

    Mohammed is not much different than Joseph Smith in some ways...
    Very good post Endy.

    Justice at the expense of the truth is not justice at all.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Did you? I asked Didymus why he believed the Bible, and he said "I have had that faith ever since I can remember, even before I have ever seen a Bible. I think I picked it up from my parents." So I asked "And if your parents were Muslim, what do you suppose you would be believing today?" As far as I can tell, your response had nothing to do with my question.


    I am not "judging God." I am reading and understanding the words of the Bible and what it claims about "God." There is a world of difference here.

    Do you not understand that the Bible presents God as unjust, irrational, and repugnant when he commands all the men, women, and CHILDREN to be slaughtered, except for the virgins who were kept as sex-slaves and barely human reproductive units? And worse, God ordained that "his people" would wipe out the entire tribe of Benjamin, including all the women and children, leaving only 600 males, and was complicit in the murder of everyone in Jabesh-gilead except, ONCE AGAIN, the virgins who were taken to be raped for life by their kidnappers?

    Why do you claim to believe the Bible when in fact you ignore what it actually states?
    There's the difference. You are questioning the actions of God. I am not, and hope others are not either. God can and does do whatever He wants.

    I have a question. Are you a Christian?

    Justice at the expense of the truth is not justice at all.

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