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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    11

    TORH/YHVH Code in First 5 Books Question

    Hi,

    I'm new to the forum and had a question about Chuck Missler's claim on the TORH / YHVH code in the first five books of the bible.

    He (and others) claim that the word TORH is found in ELS of 50 (49 spaces between letters) in Genesis and Exodus. Likewise, the word, spelled backwards (HROT), is found in Numbers and Deuteronomy in ELS of 50. In Leviticus, TORH is not found, but YHVH is located in ELS at 8 (or 7 spaces between letters). They claim that the Torah always points to the name of God.

    I used The Keys to the Bible Software to confirm the occurrences in Genesis and Exodus. Manually looking at the grid of Genesis 1, I find at the first "T" the code TORH at 50 ELS (49 spaces). Exodus 1 is exactly the same.

    My problems begin when I go to Numbers. It is no longer the first "H" that I come to, but the 3rd "H" where TORH is spelled in reverse, in ELS of 50 (49 spaces). Then going to Deuteronomy, I get lost. HROT doesn't show up at an ELS of 50 until chapter 5:16.

    I then go to Leviticus, and YHVH is found there at an ELS of 8 (7 spaces between letters) starting with the first "Y".

    When I sit back and look at this information, Missler's hypothesis is tentatively affirmed. The word TORH is found in Genesis and Exodus. The word HORT is found in Numbers and Deuteronomy (albeit not perfectly arranged as in Genesis and Exodus). In addition, the word YHVH is found in Leviticus at the prescribed interval.

    Trouble arises for this hypothesis, though, on further searches. I also found TORH and HROT at 50 ELS in all 5 books (in fact in all the OT books). I also found YHVH throughout the OT at 8 ELS. This means that not only does the Torah point to YHVH, it also points away from it at the same time.

    Further, when I open the ELS sequences from 2 to 50 or above, all these words and word orders are found throughout the OT thousands of times. Wouldn't this point to the conclusion that these codes are not supernatural in origin, but simply random patterns? (I'm not referring to any other bible codes, just this Torah code and the claim that the Torah always points to the name of God).

    I will add that I am not a skeptic or a non-believer. I am simply trying to understand the evidence I have found from my own inquiry into the matter.

    Thank you for any help you can provide,

    why1942

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by why1942 View Post
    Hi,

    I'm new to the forum and had a question about Chuck Missler's claim on the TORH / YHVH code in the first five books of the bible.

    He (and others) claim that the word TORH is found in ELS of 50 (49 spaces between letters) in Genesis and Exodus. Likewise, the word, spelled backwards (HROT), is found in Numbers and Deuteronomy in ELS of 50. In Leviticus, TORH is not found, but YHVH is located in ELS at 8 (or 7 spaces between letters). They claim that the Torah always points to the name of God.

    I used The Keys to the Bible Software to confirm the occurrences in Genesis and Exodus. Manually looking at the grid of Genesis 1, I find at the first "T" the code TORH at 50 ELS (49 spaces). Exodus 1 is exactly the same.

    My problems begin when I go to Numbers. It is no longer the first "H" that I come to, but the 3rd "H" where TORH is spelled in reverse, in ELS of 50 (49 spaces). Then going to Deuteronomy, I get lost. HROT doesn't show up at an ELS of 50 until chapter 5:16.

    I then go to Leviticus, and YHVH is found there at an ELS of 8 (7 spaces between letters) starting with the first "Y".

    When I sit back and look at this information, Missler's hypothesis is tentatively affirmed. The word TORH is found in Genesis and Exodus. The word HORT is found in Numbers and Deuteronomy (albeit not perfectly arranged as in Genesis and Exodus). In addition, the word YHVH is found in Leviticus at the prescribed interval.

    Trouble arises for this hypothesis, though, on further searches. I also found TORH and HROT at 50 ELS in all 5 books (in fact in all the OT books). I also found YHVH throughout the OT at 8 ELS. This means that not only does the Torah point to YHVH, it also points away from it at the same time.

    Further, when I open the ELS sequences from 2 to 50 or above, all these words and word orders are found throughout the OT thousands of times. Wouldn't this point to the conclusion that these codes are not supernatural in origin, but simply random patterns? (I'm not referring to any other bible codes, just this Torah code and the claim that the Torah always points to the name of God).

    I will add that I am not a skeptic or a non-believer. I am simply trying to understand the evidence I have found from my own inquiry into the matter.

    Thank you for any help you can provide,

    why1942
    Hey there why1942,

    Welcome to our forum!



    I love your critical thinking skills!

    I agree that Missler's observations are more or less correct, but his interpretation could be completely wrong, for the reasons you mention. I do believe that aspects of the text show evidence of design, but the ELS are highly problematic. The frequencies of the letters in TORH and YHWH are very high, and so there are thousands of "hits." This makes a careful statistical analysis mandatory before any solid conclusions are drawn.

    The best analysis I have read is called Who Wrote the Bible Code by Randall Ingermanson PhD (in Physics). He wrote code to test the hypothesis by measuring the "entropy" of the text. He concluded that there were no meaningful ELS structures in the overall body of Scripture, and I am convinced he is correct. But that would not necessarily imply that there are not some localized patterns, like the ones you asked about. But I doubt they are significant for the statistical reasons you mentioned.

    All the best,

    Richard

    PS: I have found some patterns that appear when the text is laid out in a grid, but it is different than the ELS. See The Wheel of Light.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Years ago I read about it that it was like this, if I remember it well, but can't find it back, it's not in the two books I have about the subject written by the professionals ("Computorah" and "The Bible Code"):

    ELS of 49 or 50
    > YHVH
    > YHVH
    - TORAH
    < HVHY
    < HVHY

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,046
    It bothers me that Missler or others don't go any further on the subject. But whether or not it's real I'm determined to open a web page to search the bible code online. Be patient! I'm still working on it.

    In the mean time read these posts:
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2001
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,046

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Oh now I understand it some more. One has to wait a while and then it shows under the text. Some suggestions for improvement:
    - Larger input hebrew signs
    - A link to Wikipedia or other site's Hebrew 'Alphabet'
    - "Book no." otherwise one writes Gen or Genesis
    - Text "You have to wait some seconds and scroll down

    When I entered Yod Heh Wav Heh the last Heh did nog show in the grid..

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    11

    Finished the Research Project

    Hey Everyone,

    Thanks for the responses. I finished up the Findings Report on this project and posted it today. I have to say I'm a bit disillusioned at the discoveries I made, finding that the very symmetrical appearances that Missler speaks so readily about really do not occur. The way he describes it makes it sound very plausible that it is valid evidence for divine authorship. I can't believe it has taken me over 15 years to get around to verifying the information. Just makes me wonder what other 2nd or 3rd hand teaching/doctrine/beliefs I hold that are unverified and ultimately unfounded.

    It's an interesting contradiction, since Missler repeatedly encourages people to not take his word for it. I suppose most simply do anyway. I know I did for so long. Just never made the time to look into it.

    Here is the Findings Report if anyone would like to read it. Thanks again for the responses.

    why1942

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by why1942 View Post
    Hey Everyone,

    Thanks for the responses. I finished up the Findings Report on this project and posted it today. I have to say I'm a bit disillusioned at the discoveries I made, finding that the very symmetrical appearances that Missler speaks so readily about really do not occur. The way he describes it makes it sound very plausible that it is valid evidence for divine authorship. I can't believe it has taken me over 15 years to get around to verifying the information. Just makes me wonder what other 2nd or 3rd hand teaching/doctrine/beliefs I hold that are unverified and ultimately unfounded.

    It's an interesting contradiction, since Missler repeatedly encourages people to not take his word for it. I suppose most simply do anyway. I know I did for so long. Just never made the time to look into it.

    Here is the Findings Report if anyone would like to read it. Thanks again for the responses.

    why1942
    Excellent report.

    You opened a very large can of squirming worms when you said "Just makes me wonder what other 2nd or 3rd hand teaching/doctrine/beliefs I hold that are unverified and ultimately unfounded." Once you go down that road, there ain't no turning back. Traditional "fundamentalist" conceptions about the Bible like "inerrancy" and "infallibility" are quickly dispelled as unfounded myths. And almost all Christian apologetics is based on faulty logic and is fundamentally worthless.

    Perhaps you can help me. I am in a very strange position. I wrote a 412 page book and developed a website with hundreds of pages to explain the Bible Wheel. During that time, I was convinced that the Bible Wheel "proved" the divine origin of Holy Scripture. I still believe that is true (in as much as I am not aware of any errors in my work), but I no longer believe that the Bible is literally true. It seems more like a supernatural "historical novel." I do not even believe that there is a "personal" God as described in that book. I'm not an atheist, but I do not believe in a god who intervenes in human affairs and judges souls for sins in this life, or that folks even need "salvation" in the traditional sense.

    It would be very interesting if you reviewed my work to see if it stands up under your scrutiny. Perhaps your skeptical eye will help me see something I have missed. I have sought serious criticism from many Christians on the internet over the years, but have yet to be shown any fundamental flaw or systematic error in my work. You can download the book for free here if you are interested.

    All the best,

    Richard

    PS: Why 1942?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    11

    Already on my Reading List

    Hi Richard,

    After I made my post, I bowed to my curiosity and skimmed the Bible Wheel website, including downloading your book. I would be happy to read through it and provide feedback.

    Would you like my responses to be available to the public (on the forum) or privately by email? Along those lines, would you grant me permission to post my review of your book on my website as one of my research projects (I would also provide a link to your book and website)? If not, I would still be happy to review it privately.

    I agree with you about the can of worms. I used to think that I had only 1st hand doctrinal beliefs, but came to the realization that most if not all of my beliefs are 2nd or 3rd hand. I've never fit well with traditional Christian denominationalism (primarily Baptist, but also Church of Christ, some independent progressive churches, etc) there always seems to be something in their teaching/doctrine that they obsessively focus on that is extra-biblical.

    At any rate, I will provide my feedback soon. Point of interest,though. You described the bible as a "supernatural historical novel". Did you mean that you accept the idea that there is a supernatural realm (i.e. God exists) and he/she/it has communicated with/to us via a historical novel (i.e. providing spiritual guidance through fictional stories) or do you mean that you discount a supernatural realm (i.e. no actual God) and consider the bible to be a creation of human intellect, no different than the writings of other religions (or John Grisham's latest novel)?

    The way you describe your beliefs (as I understand it) sounds very similar to a Deistic world-view.

    why1942

    P.S. Why1942? It has actually no historical significance. I was changing my email address about a year ago and had to come up with something. At the time I was in grad school, majoring in history, so I just picked a random year and asked why. I get asked that question frequently. ;-)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    try this out. It's still a rough draft:
    http://www.gbgrafix.com/thewheelofgo.../mybcode10.php
    Yeah I like to search for leper, leprosy and contagious (that's what leprosy is).
    That's TSoR'aTH (90-200-70-400). Don't know why, but suddenly I remember this post of mine.

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