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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    I am only providing hints {as was A. Persson}. DYODD

    "When the Lord Jesus was describing the “end of days,” {Luke 17:26-30} the time just prior to His Second Coming, He drew a direct connection back to the days of Noah: the time just before the Great Flood. He mentioned that the people were involved with eating, drinking and marrying right up until the flood came. They were totally unaware of the coming judgment.

    At first glance, there does not seem to be anything unusual about eating and drinking until all the Scriptures are studied about the time of Noah. The big picture shows this time period was full of violence and rebellion against God."

    http://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/DaysNoah.htm

    The Ancient Aliens delusion is picking up its pace. They laughed at Noah for decades.
    Yeah, but the whole concept is based on rejection of the fact that Jesus said the events would happen during the lifetime of his first century audience, and that they would be marked by the destruction of the Temple which happened in 70 AD. So the whole "second coming" teaching is entirely contrary to what the Bible actually teaches.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Yeah, but the whole concept is based on rejection of the fact that Jesus said the events would happen during the lifetime of his first century audience, and that they would be marked by the destruction of the Temple which happened in 70 AD.
    Do you believe this:

    "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near...Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."

    was written before 70AD?

    Perhaps "coming with clouds" is something different from "the end";

    "But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order {squadron}: the anointed firstfruits {at the beginning of the millennium}, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming {at the end of the millennium}. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign {from 70AD when the judaic system - OT - ended until the end of the millennium} till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

    It seems certain that there has been no end to "all rule and all authority and power" and we know for certain the "last enemy" has not been destroyed.

    My contention is that there are reoccuring fulfillments of certain prophecies kind of like echos, requiring a recognition of prophetic types. We see this for certain in Ahithophel, Judas and the modern church.

    "In this conspiracy, Absalom sent for Ahithophel, who was David's counselor and friend (Psalm 41:9). Ahithophel came from Giloh, a town in the mountains of Judah (2 Samuel 15:12). Like Absalom, he was a Judahite and a prophetic type of Judas in the New Testament.

    In the story, Absalom represents the chief priests who crucified Jesus, the Son of David, in order to usurp His throne. Ahithophel represents Judas, the friend who helped the chief priests in betraying Jesus. Without understanding this story and its prophetic significance, we cannot possibly understand the concept of the man of sin and son of perdition as Paul uses the terms in 2 Thessalonians 2."

    http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/t...-the-betrayer/

    The prophetic type of Noah's time would be massive corruption {infiltration by counterfeits} requiring a reset, echoed at the end of "this generation" and again just before the first resurrection.
    Last edited by messianicdruid; 02-15-2014 at 07:31 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    Do you believe this:

    "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near...Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."

    was written before 70AD?

    Perhaps "coming with clouds" is something different from "the end";
    Futurists seem to think that a late date of Revelation (ca. 95 AD) is the "trump card" for their position. I see it as the opposite, because if Revelation is not referring to the events of 70 AD then it is demonstrably false, since it said that the events it predicted would happen "quickly" because "the time is near". And there is good evidence that Peter read Revelation, which would support the pre-70 AD (under the assumption that 1 Peter was written prior to that date. I presented this evidence in a thread called Did the Apostle Peter read the Book of Revelation?

    When I was a Christian, I became convinced that the Preterist view, though not perfect, was far and away the best fit for the data. I understood the Olivet Discourse as the Little Apocalypse that corresponded to the same events in the Big Apocalypse, aka, Book of Revelation. I laid out my interpretation in an article called The Synoptic Apocalypse.

    I also was very impressed with how Revelation corresponds to the seven feasts. I explained this in a post called A Synopsis of Revelation.

    So what is the meaning of "coming on clouds"? From a Biblical perspective, that's a reference to the armies God used to judge Israel, just as in the OT.

    Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

    Jeremiah 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. 14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    "But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order {squadron}: the anointed firstfruits {at the beginning of the millennium}, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming {at the end of the millennium}. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign {from 70AD when the judaic system - OT - ended until the end of the millennium} till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

    It seems certain that there has been no end to "all rule and all authority and power" and we know for certain the "last enemy" has not been destroyed.
    That passage is one of the more difficult to interpret in the Preterist system, but still, it presents no challenges like those caused by trying to force the Olivet Discourse to be part past and part future. That is simply impossible. I've debated many futurists on this forum over the years and they all failed to present a coherent, let alone cogent, case for their interpretations. They all had to quit when I exposed their errors and they refused to admit the truth. It was really quite frustrating - a hollow victory when the other side simply runs and hides.

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    My contention is that there are reoccuring fulfillments of certain prophecies kind of like echos, requiring a recognition of prophetic types. We see this for certain in Ahithophel, Judas and the modern church.
    That's how you invent doctrines that are not actually taught in the Bible. You can't just make up predictions about the future to fit an speculative eschatology. For example, most Futurists say that Elijah is yet to come, directly contradicting the teaching of Christ. Malachi said that Elijah would come before two events:

    1) The Messiah

    2) The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.

    Christ said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come, and if he was not then Jesus was not Messiah. And John the Baptist warned the Pharisees of the "wrath" that was to come down on their generation, so we have both prophecies fulfilled or falsified. There is no future "second coming of Elijah" predicted in Scripture. Everything points to a first century fulfillment or the conclusion that the Bible is false.

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    "In this conspiracy, Absalom sent for Ahithophel, who was David's counselor and friend (Psalm 41:9). Ahithophel came from Giloh, a town in the mountains of Judah (2 Samuel 15:12). Like Absalom, he was a Judahite and a prophetic type of Judas in the New Testament.

    In the story, Absalom represents the chief priests who crucified Jesus, the Son of David, in order to usurp His throne. Ahithophel represents Judas, the friend who helped the chief priests in betraying Jesus. Without understanding this story and its prophetic significance, we cannot possibly understand the concept of the man of sin and son of perdition as Paul uses the terms in 2 Thessalonians 2."

    http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/t...-the-betrayer/

    The prophetic type of Noah's time would be massive corruption {infiltration by counterfeits} requiring a reset, echoed at the end of "this generation" and again just before the first resurrection.
    I was always big on the study of prophetic types, but they are only useful if confirmed by the plain teaching of Scripture because there is no way for anyone to know if their interpretations are true or not, and there is no end to the number of interpretations that could be invented. Take a look at how the Catholics have interpreted the Ark with the Word of God in it as a Type of Mary, the Mother of God. They find that every bit as convincing as you find your typological interpretations. And so they do not help discerning between truth or falsehood, since everyone will see confirmations of their own biases in the "types" they can apply to the elements of the Bible.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I was always big on the study of prophetic types, but they are only useful if confirmed by the plain teaching of Scripture because there is no way for anyone to know if their interpretations are true or not, and there is no end to the number of interpretations that could be invented.
    There is plenty of plain teaching that shows that God teaches through cause and effect, and holds us accountable for our sins. If "the things written aforetime are written for our learning" they would be pretty useless without immediate prophetic types to illustrate what the Holy Spirit is talking about. Prophecy is not about making predictions but offering a warning, and when the events occur, helping us understand our place in the timeline. You might do well to study:

    http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.n...crets-of-time/

    I studied Matthew 24 being completely fulfilled by 70 AD several years ago and have no problem with that. But the application of the whole of Revelations to those events is entirely new to me. The link you provided concerning the feast days in Revelations requires much more thought, on my part.

    However, the first thing that comes to mind is chapter 18. I see no way for:

    "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

    to have had dealings with Jerusalem in the manner described. Then you have the problem of the suddenness of the judgement:

    "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her." "Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come." "For in one hour so great riches is come to nought." "...for in one hour is she made desolate."

    The last item mentioned as a trade good, "the souls {lives} of men" could not be an item of trade {collateral/surety for debt} until the invention of the Birth Certificate.

    Babylon the Great is a worldwide system based on babylonian politics, economics and religion, certainly not limited to 40 years during the first century AD. Even if you could apply all of Revelation to 70AD, it would still serve as a type/antitype for what is happening right before our eyes.
    Last edited by messianicdruid; 02-18-2014 at 09:25 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    They find that every bit as convincing as you find your typological interpretations. And so they do not help discerning between truth or falsehood, since everyone will see confirmations of their own biases {idols?} in the "types" they can apply to the elements of the Bible.
    "Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, these men have set up their idols {false concepts of God} in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity {lawlessness 1John 3:4} before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them? Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself: And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord. And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God."

    We must all be wary of our heart idols, and be ready to forsake them when discovered.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Futurists seem to think that a late date of Revelation (ca. 95 AD) is the "trump card" for their position. I see it as the opposite, because if Revelation is not referring to the events of 70 AD then it is demonstrably false, since it said that the events it predicted would happen "quickly" because "the time is near".
    Hebrew "karov" does denote both "soon" and "near" -- i.e. "close" both in time and space

    to be found in Deuteronomy 30:14,
    כִּי קָרוֹב אֵלֶיךָ הַדָּבָר מְאֹד בְּפִיךָ וּבִלְבָבְךָ לַעֲשׂתוֹ
    "ki karov aleicha hadavar m'od b'ficha ubil'vavcha l'asoto"
    "For very close to you is the word in your mouth and in your heart to do it"

    Hey, and what again was the thing Revelation did command you to do?



    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    And there is good evidence that Peter read Revelation, which would support the pre-70 AD (under the assumption that 1 Peter was written prior to that date. I presented this evidence in a thread called Did the Apostle Peter read the Book of Revelation?
    Also 1+2 Peter were written after 70AD, and not by Peter, but by someone else.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Futurists seem to think that a late date of Revelation (ca. 95 AD) is the "trump card" for their position. I see it as the opposite, because if Revelation is not referring to the events of 70 AD then it is demonstrably false, since it said that the events it predicted would happen "quickly" because "the time is near". And there is good evidence that Peter read Revelation, which would support the pre-70 AD (under the assumption that 1 Peter was written prior to that date. I presented this evidence in a thread called Did the Apostle Peter read the Book of Revelation?

    When I was a Christian, I became convinced that the Preterist view, though not perfect, was far and away the best fit for the data. I understood the Olivet Discourse as the Little Apocalypse that corresponded to the same events in the Big Apocalypse, aka, Book of Revelation. I laid out my interpretation in an article called The Synoptic Apocalypse.

    I also was very impressed with how Revelation corresponds to the seven feasts. I explained this in a post called A Synopsis of Revelation.

    So what is the meaning of "coming on clouds"? From a Biblical perspective, that's a reference to the armies God used to judge Israel, just as in the OT.

    Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

    Jeremiah 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. 14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?


    That passage is one of the more difficult to interpret in the Preterist system, but still, it presents no challenges like those caused by trying to force the Olivet Discourse to be part past and part future. That is simply impossible. I've debated many futurists on this forum over the years and they all failed to present a coherent, let alone cogent, case for their interpretations. They all had to quit when I exposed their errors and they refused to admit the truth. It was really quite frustrating - a hollow victory when the other side simply runs and hides.


    That's how you invent doctrines that are not actually taught in the Bible. You can't just make up predictions about the future to fit an speculative eschatology. For example, most Futurists say that Elijah is yet to come, directly contradicting the teaching of Christ. Malachi said that Elijah would come before two events:

    1) The Messiah

    2) The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.

    Christ said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come, and if he was not then Jesus was not Messiah. And John the Baptist warned the Pharisees of the "wrath" that was to come down on their generation, so we have both prophecies fulfilled or falsified. There is no future "second coming of Elijah" predicted in Scripture. Everything points to a first century fulfillment or the conclusion that the Bible is false.


    I was always big on the study of prophetic types, but they are only useful if confirmed by the plain teaching of Scripture because there is no way for anyone to know if their interpretations are true or not, and there is no end to the number of interpretations that could be invented. Take a look at how the Catholics have interpreted the Ark with the Word of God in it as a Type of Mary, the Mother of God. They find that every bit as convincing as you find your typological interpretations. And so they do not help discerning between truth or falsehood, since everyone will see confirmations of their own biases in the "types" they can apply to the elements of the Bible.
    Hi Richard:

    Well done! I really am amazed by your intellect! What I wonder is, perhaps the void of Zen could explain your utter denial of all things spiritual? I just am baffled by your rejection of anything coming from the area of non-reality so to speak. like the void - the truth is hidden in the wind. Mysterious, without explanation - so is the Spirit. Is that possible? Can you see that as a possibilty although not able to prove it in any way?

    You can't just make up predictions about the future to fit an speculative eschatology. For example, most Futurists say that Elijah is yet to come, directly contradicting the teaching of Christ. Malachi said that Elijah would come before two events:

    1) The Messiah

    2) The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.

    Christ said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come, and if he was not then Jesus was not Messiah. And John the Baptist warned the Pharisees of the "wrath" that was to come down on their generation, so we have both prophecies fulfilled or falsified. There is no future "second coming of Elijah" predicted in Scripture. Everything points to a first century fulfillment or the conclusion that the Bible is false.

    I wonder if the phrase "Great and terrible day of the Lord" could be linked to the verses which were omitted by Christ when He read the Isaiah scripture in the Synagogue. The passage He failed to read was "and the day of vengeance of our God." Indicating that those verses were NOT fullfilled then in His day....


    Isaiah 61:2
    "To proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn..."


    Luke 4:19
    18"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, 19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." 20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.…

    Just a thought! The day of vengeance could not have been in Christ's lifetime...
    ... So still future?

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 02-19-2014 at 06:49 AM.
    Mystykal

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I was always big on the study of prophetic types, but they are only useful if confirmed by the plain teaching of Scripture because there is no way for anyone to know if their interpretations are true or not, and there is no end to the number of interpretations that could be invented. Take a look at how the Catholics have interpreted the Ark with the Word of God in it as a Type of Mary, the Mother of God. They find that every bit as convincing as you find your typological interpretations. And so they do not help discerning between truth or falsehood, since everyone will see confirmations of their own biases in the "types" they can apply to the elements of the Bible.
    OK Ram, I'm not catholic but saw this same 'type' of Ark of Mary even before your comment - and not only that, but pregnant Mary is type of US who "let Christ be formed in us", Gal 4:19, and calling us Wise or Foolish Virgins. You don't think that fits the plain language? Not gender restrictive, so might be Jacob's Trouble too.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Richard:

    Well done! I really am amazed by your intellect! What I wonder is, perhaps the void of Zen could explain your utter denial of all things spiritual? I just am baffled by your rejection of anything coming from the area of non-reality so to speak. like the void - the truth is hidden in the wind. Mysterious, without explanation - so is the Spirit. Is that possible? Can you see that as a possibilty although not able to prove it in any way?
    Hey there Mystykal,

    What are you talking about? I have never said anything that could be interpreted as an "utter denial of all things spiritual." On the contrary, I have been perfectly clear that there could be a spiritual reality. I am utterly mystified by how you could misunderstand me so completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    I wonder if the phrase "Great and terrible day of the Lord" could be linked to the verses which were omitted by Christ when He read the Isaiah scripture in the Synagogue. The passage He failed to read was "and the day of vengeance of our God." Indicating that those verses were NOT fullfilled then in His day....


    Isaiah 61:2
    "To proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn..."


    Luke 4:19
    18"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, 19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." 20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.…

    Just a thought! The day of vengeance could not have been in Christ's lifetime...
    ... So still future?

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    No, that doesn't work at all because Jesus did speak of the "days of vengeance" in the same book:

    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    He was talking about the events leading up to the destruction of the temple which happened in 70 AD.

    Shine on!



    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    OK Ram, I'm not catholic but saw this same 'type' of Ark of Mary even before your comment - and not only that, but pregnant Mary is type of US who "let Christ be formed in us", Gal 4:19, and calling us Wise or Foolish Virgins. You don't think that fits the plain language? Not gender restrictive, so might be Jacob's Trouble too.
    I think that figurative language is very profound, really. I wrote a lot about the typology of the temple, and the ark in the holy place holding the Word of God like believers holding the word in their heart. I have no problem seeing that. But the Catholics mix it with their doctrines about Mary, including her perpetual virginity and sinlessness and other things that don't come from the Bible. And that's my point: typology works great as a way to illustrate things that are plainly taught, but if it is untethered from the plain teaching, it can be made to say whatever enters the imagination.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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