Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 119
  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,046
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    This is a point very few Christians understand. When they read Paul's statements about the "Law" they think he is talking about a universal moral law that applies to all people. But that is not correct. When Paul talks about the "Law" he is speaking specifically of the Torah or the Ten Commandments, or sometimes the OT as a whole. When Christians realize that they were never "under" the "law" that Paul spoke of, they will see the entire message of the NT in a different light.
    Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
    Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
    Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
    So Paul isn't encouraging the circumcision of the flesh but the heart. On the other hand he is encouraging the keeping of certain laws, perhaps the moral laws, called the righteousness of the law.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,148
    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    So Paul isn't encouraging the circumcision of the flesh but the heart. On the other hand he is encouraging the keeping of certain laws, perhaps the moral laws, called the righteousness of the law.
    I agree with your intent, but I would not say that Paul was "encouraging the keeping of certain laws" since that clangs against the way he expressed himself, unless you are speaking of the the "law of the spirit" but in that case I would not use the plural "laws" since there is only one "law of the spirit." Using the plural invokes the idea of many laws and ordinances that Paul said were abolished in Christ:

    Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    333
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Just wanted you all to see something. Perhaps our Western civilization is not as good for geographical Israel as many Zionist's would leave our government and its society to believe. Check out what's plaguing modern day secular Israel:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe15GG-s3eE

    Hand of God? Israel reborn? I'd say NOT! Not as though the U.S. is any better, or France, German, England, etc.

    This post had two points:

    1. This is NOT Israel reborn since 1948 or 1967
    2. Their territory is no different (with regards to sinning) than any other part of the world.

    Conclusion? Israel was NOT reborn in either years mentioned above. Israel lives on in our hearts and minds through the Sanctification of the Spirit. Through Christ Jesus, Israel shall always abide upon this globe as a light and beacon to sinners all around....THIS INCLUDES geographical modern day secular Israel....the city plagued with homosexuals.

    Joe


    Biblical Israel was not reborn. The sons of Abraham became extinct after God's judgment upon them in ad70. Futurists propagate a myth concerning modern "Israel."

    What needs to be understood is that modern Israel is not the Israel of scripture, they are not the descendants of Abraham. There is no race of Jews today! The Encyclopedia Britannica (Vol. 12, p. 1054) 1973 says, "The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race."Jewish author, Camille Honig, editor of The Jewish Voice, wrote (Nov, 1953),"It is sheer nonsense, as well as unscientific, to speak of a Jewish race. Jews do not belong to a single homogeneous group."

    This is acknowledged by historians of all stripes who know that the Ashkenaz Jews of today were, in fact, Gentiles in origin. Ashkenaz Jews, who comprise the vast majority of those calling themselves Jews today, trace their lineage back to Gomer, who in turn was descended from Japheth, the son of Noah (Genesis 10:3; 1 Chronicles 1:4f). However, the lineage of Abraham came through Noah's son Shem, not Japheth. This is incredibly important, and yet, is being essentially ignored by most Bible students today.

    Thus, for modern prophecy teachers to proclaim that Israel remains the chosen people of God, is a falsehood, for Biblical Israel does not exist today. There is no nation of Israel, descended from Abraham, today.

    But, it is not only wrong from a purely ethnic/racialperspective, to speak of the restoration of Israel today, it is also wrong from a Biblical perspective. The nation of Israel was never intended to be God's ultimate "People." He had something else in mind, something which even the nation of Israel typified. Yet, programs like Wings of Eagles, by claiming that Israel remains the chosen people, whom the modern church must support at all costs, are tacitly guilty of rejecting what God had in mind as the actual goal of Israel's destiny.

    The idea of a restored Israel is a modern myth, for Biblical Israel, physically descended from Abraham, simply does not exist. She ceased to exist in A.D. 70. The "Jews" in Israel today are Ashkenaz, and are Gentiles by race. Even Jewish anthropologists admit that there is no ethnic race of Israel to day.


    http://endtimesmadness.com/Jews2.html

    Jesus said that in His generation Israel's house would become "desolate" and it came to pass. The teaching that modern "Israel" is the Biblical Israel restored is both biblically and historically and anthropologically false. It is sheer madness!


    Roo

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    333
    Gilgal wrote:
    The death of Israel seems to be a shadow of the end of the world.
    At least we agree on the death of Israel. However, the death of Israel was not a shadow of the end of the world but of the end of the Mosaic economy.

    blessings,


    Roo

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Not from this world...from the other side
    Posts
    3,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangaroo Jack View Post
    Biblical Israel was not reborn. The sons of Abraham became extinct after God's judgment upon them in ad70. Futurists propagate a myth concerning modern "Israel."




    Jesus said that in His generation Israel's house would become "desolate" and it came to pass. The teaching that modern "Israel" is the Biblical Israel restored is both biblically and historically and anthropologically false. It is sheer madness!


    Roo
    I have asked questions which go unanswered:

    1. Is the land of Israel the same land that Jesus walked on 2,000 years ago?
    2. Is the land of Israel including the Mount of Olives still God's Holy land and mountain?
    3. Is God blessing Israel or the US or Australia now or is it by chance that these countries prosper and thrive?

    The sons of Abraham may have gone extinct but Abraham's genes are still in them and this can be proven scientifically. Their blood are mixed but that does not mean they have gone extinct. Have Europeans gone extinct because their blood are mixed? The sons of Abraham gone extinct?...Ask any Arab today and they will tell you they are descended from ABRAHAM through Ishmael. The enmity between the sons of Esau/Ishmael (Palestinians and Arabs) and the sons of Jacob/Isaac (Israelites) still exists today is a testimony of the 4,000 years conflict between the sons of Abraham that still remain unresolved.

    Many Blessings and Merry Christmas.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,968
    I have asked questions which go unanswered:

    1. Is the land of Israel the same land that Jesus walked on 2,000 years ago?
    2. Is the land of Israel including the Mount of Olives still God's Holy land and mountain?
    3. Is God blessing Israel or the US or Australia now or is it by chance that these countries prosper and thrive?
    1. No, the modern day secular Israel is not inhabited by tribal Israeli's, and is occupied by Palestinians.

    2. No, God's Holy Mountain is defined in Hebrews as the Israel from above where the King sits...this is in heaven and is also seen through the Church.

    3. Israel is not prospering or thriving EXCEPT by what the United States and Britain are providing. The United States is perhaps the closest alley to modern day secular Israel. Thus their mistakes are probably our fault.

    God blesses all nations who come to Him regardless of territorial boundaries or fleshly birth. Only through Christ Jesus is one blessed, and this has absolutely NOTHING to do with where we are born, but INTO WHOM we are born my beloved friend. Being found in Christ Jesus is all that matters; not property taxes, birth certificates, or tribal relations.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    333
    Cheow asked:
    Is the land of Israel the same land that Jesus walked on 2,000 years ago?
    Yes and no. Yes because it is the same geographical dirt. But no because it is not flowing with milk and honey. It doesn't matter anyway because it was "Israel" the sons of Abraham to whom the land was promised. There are no more sons of Abraham. Therefore, any people could claim it which the Ashkenaz people have. I repeat: The sons of Abraham (Israel) is extinct and anyone could claim the land.

    I need not entertain all your questions because by asking them you intend to dance around the facts. You're just trying to make a case when you have no case. The Zionists are at odds with the biblical, historical and anthropological facts. Zionism is a cult!

    The sons of Abraham blew it when they rejected their Messiah. That was the last straw with God. So He reserved a remnant of them for Himself and made the house of Israel desolate just as Christ predicted. Paul identified "ALL Israel" as the remnant of his own time (Romans 11:5-6).

    I submit that the Zionists are ALL disobedient to the scriptures! And they have their heads in the sand historically and anthropologically.

    Roo

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,148
    1. Is the land of Israel the same land that Jesus walked on 2,000 years ago?
    Yes and no. Yes, it is in the same physical location, but no because much of it is not even called "Israel" anymore. For example, Bethlehem is a Palestinian city in the West Bank.

    2. Is the land of Israel including the Mount of Olives still God's Holy land and mountain?
    No. God is not associated with any piece of real estate.

    3. Is God blessing Israel or the US or Australia now or is it by chance that these countries prosper and thrive?
    The logic of that question is based on a fundamental error. Being "prosperous" in this world is not a sign of God's approval. Remember the Scripture "Why do the wicked prosper?" It is impossible to state the reasons some countries thrive more than others. For example, China is "thriving" much more than the USA right now. And it's the same thing with churches. Folks like to say that God is obviously "on their side" if their church is big and prosperous. But this doesn't work so well if we ask why the Mormon church thrives. And we certainly would have been deceived if we asked why the Nazis were prospering in the beginning of WWII.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    The sons of Abraham may have gone extinct but Abraham's genes are still in them and this can be proven scientifically. Their blood are mixed but that does not mean they have gone extinct. Have Europeans gone extinct because their blood are mixed? The sons of Abraham gone extinct?...Ask any Arab today and they will tell you they are descended from ABRAHAM through Ishmael. The enmity between the sons of Esau/Ishmael (Palestinians and Arabs) and the sons of Jacob/Isaac (Israelites) still exists today is a testimony of the 4,000 years conflict between the sons of Abraham that still remain unresolved.

    Many Blessings and Merry Christmas.
    I don't think you understand the meaning of "mixing" yet. Suppose a Gentile marries a Jew. What is the child? Is it a Gentile? A Jew? If you say it is a Jew then you are saying that nearly everyone on the planet is a Jew because the Jewish blood mixed like a drop of ink in a glass of water with the entire population of the planet. I've repeated this many times. It would be good to know if you understand how this works.

    All the best, and Merry Christmas!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    333
    RAM said:
    I don't think you understand the meaning of "mixing" yet. Suppose a Gentile marries a Jew. What is the child? Is it a Gentile? A Jew? If you say it is a Jew then you are saying that nearly everyone on the planet is a Jew because the Jewish blood mixed like a drop of ink in a glass of water with the entire population of the planet.
    Exactly! After God judged the Jews in ad70 they were scattered among all peoples and intermarried and inte-bred and had children. This resulted in the loss of their ethnic identity. No person today is less "Jewish" or more "Jewish" than another.

    Paul inferred that the whole remnant of the Jews which God had reserved for salvation were alive in his day.

    1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 'LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life'?[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? 'I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.' 5 Even so then, at THIS PRESENT TIME there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
    7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect HAVE OBTAINED IT.Romans 11:1-7
    The WHOLE remnant of Israel was alive in Paul's time. Paul said that God had reserved the remnant at "THIS PRESENT TIME." He said that the elect remnant "HAS OBTAINED" salvation. After they were ALL saved God made their hous desolate. There is no Jewish remnant after Paul's time. They have become extinct.

    Praise God for saving the WHOLE remnant before He destroyed their house. The WHOLE remnant of the ancient Jewish people have been at the throne worshiping for over 2,000 years.

    Trying to inform the Zionists of the facts is like talking to a brick wall.

    Roo

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I do have uncertainties though. Because when we read the Old Covenant we see good things such as a murderer should be set on trial and executed under 2 or 3 witnesses. Otherwise the land gets corrupted.

    Obeying such laws is what keeps a nation alive and strong.

    What I do wonder is whether the sacrifices should continue or commandments since Paul presented himself in the Temple because of his oath while preaching the Gospel.
    Gilgal;

    When Cain killed Abel because he was jealous that Abel understood God's plan for a future sacrifice; God did not 'kill' Cain even though the blood cried out from the ground. In fact he put a mark on Cain SO THAT anyone finding him would NOT kill him. This was even after Cain talked with Abel and possibly came to understand the reason for the acceptance of Abels offering and not his. Thus Cain perhaps "killed" Abel because he was jealous that Abel had figured it out before him and 'hated' him for his intelligence and his Spirit rather than accepting it's understanding for his own life and learning from God through Abel. ??

    It's possible also that Cain placed faith in his willingness to accept the sentence of labor and faith in the fruits of His labor itself (works salvation) and then felt rejected and fooled by God as Abel appeared to have it easier by killing and offering a sacrifice that had grown from the land. That's begining to get speculative.

    This could be viewed as a prophetic type of God not immediately killing those who killed him (Jesus), with Abel being a 'type' forecasting Christ's murder with God/Jesus not taking immediate retribution against the killers but giving them a chance to understand, believe and RECIEVE his truths and perspectives.

    It says in Num 35:33
    So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye [are]: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.
    This is partly the law of restitution and the law of cause and effect and viewing murder as taking something (stealing) that belongs to it's Creator.

    I have often wondered why there is so much emphasis on the blood of the lamb in the old testament and the blood of Christ in the ratification of the new.
    When we picture the blood of God incarnate hitting the ground while he was being scourged and then underneath the cross, we realize that this blood of the Creator also made atonement for even a murder and the blood shed by a killer if/when he comes to faith in and forgiveness of the Creator.

    We have ALL likely "murdered" one or another aspect of another person and their life, through jealousy, envy, withholding truth or actually lying against the truth; through strife or other forms of hatred. Jesus said that if one holds hatred in their hearts he/she is guilty of 'murder' or killing. They have not esteemed, cultivated and viewed that other persons life in the positive nurturing and understanding of that Life and Person being created as a unique individual in the image of their Creator. We have not always continued in the love, support and estimation of ourselves or others as the giver of Life would have it. Note the differences between the fruits of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit in Gal 5. We note also the instruction to let no man "PUT ASUNDER" the Life that God joined together.

    As Jesus said; there is only one unpardonable sin, and that is to consider the works that he was doing (and his person) as originating from darkness. By extension it would be to view the Creation and it's present goodness as unholy. By further extension, that effects our views of ourselves and other people created in His image as inestimatable.

    There were times past in our country and in other countries where the goal of imprisonment was only for rehabilitation and in the Quaker colony of Pennsylvania, for example, until a person would demonstrate an understanding of why something he/they did was in error, and/or would make a promise and intent of restitution. The idea of incarceration as a form of Punishment or 'SENTENCE" by taking something (life, time or earnings) from the offender wasn't practiced. The judges and govorners were the spiritual leaders. The indians also had very little use for incarceration and judicial punishment from what I've read.

    Man's laws and the punishments can be a deterent against those behaviors that are thought undesireable and sometimes harmful to others; but they do not always change the heart, nor does either accidentally or ignorantly breaking one of 'man's laws make one who is eternally forgiven by God an outcast in His eyes. We remember how Jesus ate the grain and healed on the Sabath.

    Sometimes the legal systems bear a theme of common sense and mutual agreement and sometimes they are more oppressive, enslaving and profitt generating than sensible.
    And this is not intended to be a thorough or even partial overview or opinion of various laws and jurisdictions.

    There were times not so long ago (and perhaps still is) where bibles were readily available in the prisons and some of the most successful prison rehabilitation systems and contractors were spiritually based.

    I dont' think I'll make a comment upon the topic of capital punishment; except that capital punishment of the killers life does not bring the other life back and neither does laws and punishments against killing, etc neccessarily change a persons heart towards understanding his error and Love of himself and fellow man.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    As I recall; Paul went to the temple, but the completion of the nazarite vow was interupted by the high Priests and so forth. Could it have been that Paul was putting his understanding of the end of mosaic ordinances on Abrahams alter of reproof? Thus, Paul would have been saying to God and those around him, that he would have understood that these rituals were to have no effect anymore; but perhaps to reprove God's similar perspective, he would venture into the temple area where he would have likely have known of the opposition of such presence by the High Priests. Perhaps this path to Caesar was revealed to Him by the Spirit.

    I really can't imagine any rationale for thinking or even contemplating that the sacrifces should continue or be re-instituted. It almost makes the cross of non-effect and is equal to trampling the blood of the covenant by which we are sanctified (and made holy) of none effect. Weren't the animals (as part of the creation) Freed' from bondage of the law during the ending of the mosaic covnt system and restoration of all things as described in Romans 8:18ff?

    Obeying such laws is what keeps a nation alive and strong.
    This was the the perspective and hope of the faulty national covenant of the uncircumcized heart. The truth is exposed by the need for the 'new prophet' who would bring NEW Words of LOVE and LIFE, to the individualized heart (see Deut 4,5, 18) not conditional/corporal words of law and administration of hate and death. The words thou shalt not kill do not instill the positive law in the heart of loving thy neighbor as thyself (first) and as Jesus loved his disciples.

    How did Paul say?..... You who say, thou shalt not kill; do you kill? Do govornments kill?... You who say; thou shalt not steal; Do you steal?.... You who say; thou shalt not lie.... Do you lie??... Do certain agencies steal and lie by using custom defined terms in place of common words? Isn't misdefining words a high offense and equal to moving the ancient boundary that was agreed upon.?

    There is a commonly taught principle that those who accuse of something are usually guilty of what they accuse the other of.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 01-12-2011 at 10:32 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •