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  1. #1
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    Was Israel reborn in 1948 by the hand of God?

    Just wanted you all to see something. Perhaps our Western civilization is not as good for geographical Israel as many Zionist's would leave our government and its society to believe. Check out what's plaguing modern day secular Israel:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe15GG-s3eE

    Hand of God? Israel reborn? I'd say NOT! Not as though the U.S. is any better, or France, German, England, etc.

    This post had two points:

    1. This is NOT Israel reborn since 1948 or 1967
    2. Their territory is no different (with regards to sinning) than any other part of the world.

    Conclusion? Israel was NOT reborn in either years mentioned above. Israel lives on in our hearts and minds through the Sanctification of the Spirit. Through Christ Jesus, Israel shall always abide upon this globe as a light and beacon to sinners all around....THIS INCLUDES geographical modern day secular Israel....the city plagued with homosexuals.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Just wanted you all to see something. Perhaps our Western civilization is not as good for geographical Israel as many Zionist's would leave our government and its society to believe. Check out what's plaguing modern day secular Israel:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe15GG-s3eE

    Hand of God? Israel reborn? I'd say NOT! Not as though the U.S. is any better, or France, German, England, etc.

    This post had two points:

    1. This is NOT Israel reborn since 1948 or 1967
    2. Their territory is no different (with regards to sinning) than any other part of the world.

    Conclusion? Israel was NOT reborn in either years mentioned above. Israel lives on in our hearts and minds through the Sanctification of the Spirit. Through Christ Jesus, Israel shall always abide upon this globe as a light and beacon to sinners all around....THIS INCLUDES geographical modern day secular Israel....the city plagued with homosexuals.

    Joe
    While Israel shouldn't have the right to exist because if you look at it every act which lead to the creation of the state was a terrorist act such as Hitler initiating the holocaust which lead to the desire of a homeland, the first settlers went through hardships, Palestinians are booted out, terrorist acts were carried out against the British it is still undeniable that the modern day Israel is mentioned as Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11. Strangely the beginning of that chapter Jerusalem is called a Holy City, but at the end of the chapter Sodom and Egypt.

    I also believe that the whore of Babylon mentioned in Revelation 17 and 18 is the body of the Mystery Religions settled in Jerusalem controlling the economy and religion ( trafficking the souls of men, how? by controlling their minds! Religion! Man made religion, that is. )

    The 7 mountains could very well be the 7 mountains of Jerusalem.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Just wanted you all to see something. Perhaps our Western civilization is not as good for geographical Israel as many Zionist's would leave our government and its society to believe. Check out what's plaguing modern day secular Israel:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe15GG-s3eE

    Hand of God? Israel reborn? I'd say NOT! Not as though the U.S. is any better, or France, German, England, etc.

    This post had two points:

    1. This is NOT Israel reborn since 1948 or 1967
    2. Their territory is no different (with regards to sinning) than any other part of the world.

    Conclusion? Israel was NOT reborn in either years mentioned above. Israel lives on in our hearts and minds through the Sanctification of the Spirit. Through Christ Jesus, Israel shall always abide upon this globe as a light and beacon to sinners all around....THIS INCLUDES geographical modern day secular Israel....the city plagued with homosexuals.

    Joe
    Was the land of present Israel the same land that Jesus walked on 2,000 years ago? Yes! Of course. Is the current land of Israel still God's holy land? Is the Mount of Olives still God's Holy mountain? If the answer is yes, then the country of Israel of today is still God's Holy land.....A thriving country that is blessed by God as of today.

    Homosexuality occurs almost everywhere not only in Israel, but also in the US, Australia, Europe, Asia etc. Your post is biased.

    http://www.traditioninaction.org/Hot...Statistcs.html

    http://www.avert.org/gay-people.htm

    From wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

    In 1948 and 1953, Alfred Kinsey reported that nearly 46% of the male subjects had "reacted" sexually to persons of both sexes in the course of their adult lives, and 37% had had at least one homosexual experience.[44] Kinsey's methodology was criticized.[45][46] A later study tried to eliminate the sample bias, but still reached similar conclusions.[47]

    Estimates of the occurrence of exclusive homosexuality range from one to twenty percent of the population, usually finding there are slightly more gay men than lesbians

    Estimates of the frequency of homosexual activity also vary from one country to another. A 1992 study reported that 6.1% of males in Britain had had a homosexual experience, while in France the number was 4.1%.[55] According to a 2003 survey, 12% of Norwegians have had homosexual sex.[14] In New Zealand, a 2006 study suggested that 20% of the population anonymously reported some homosexual feelings, few of them identifying as homosexual. Percentage of persons identifying homosexual was 2–3%.[16] According to a 2008 poll, while only 6% of Britons define their sexual orientation as homosexual or bisexual, more than twice that number (13%) of Britons have had some form of sexual contact with someone of the same sex.[15]

    In the United States, according to exit polling on 2008 Election Day for the 2008 Presidential elections, 4% of electorate self-identified as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, the same percentage as in 2004.'[56]


    Many Blessings.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  4. #4
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    Isaiah 66 and revelation 12 seems related and they seems to refer to the birth of the country of Israel:
    Isaiah 66: 7 “Before she goes into labor,
    she gives birth;
    before the pains come upon her,
    she delivers a son.
    8 Who has ever heard of such things?
    Who has ever seen things like this?
    Can a country be born in a day
    or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
    Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
    than she gives birth to her children.
    9 Do I bring to the moment of birth
    and not give delivery?” says the LORD.
    “Do I close up the womb
    when I bring to delivery?” says your God.
    10 “Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her,
    all you who love her;
    rejoice greatly with her,
    all you who mourn over her.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

    The pregnant woman clothed with the sun with the 12 stars on her head sounds like the Old Israel under the 12 tribes of Israel (Israel before independence). "Woman" may also mean Jerusalem (Ezekiel 26:2, 3; Revelation 12:1), "Daughter of Israel". The birth of the son is believed to be the birth of the country of Israel. The independence of Israel was done in one day in 1948! (Isaiah 66:7-11) Before Israel became independent, there were riots between the Arabs and the Jews in Israel ("She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth"). And the moment Israel became independent in 1948, the Arab League (? The enormous dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns) attacked Israel ("so that they might devour the child the moment he was born").

    From wiki on Israel:

    n May 14, 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel.[81] The following day, the armies of four Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq—attacked Israel, launching the 1948 Arab–Israeli War;[82][83] S

    Matthew 24:32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

    http://www.amazingbible.org/Document...e_fig_tree.htm

    See my previous post on Israel and the fig tree:
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...rees#post18419

    Is the fig tree not Israel? See for yourself:

    The word "fig" is mentioned in the Scriptures sixty-four times. THUS SAITH THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL; LIKE THESE GOOD FIGS, SO WILL I ACKNOWLEDGE THEM THAT ARE CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE OF JUDAH, WHOM I HAVE SENT OUT OF THIS PLACE INTO THE LAND OF THE CHALDEANS FOR THEIR GOOD-Jere 24:5. We see the word "figs," being used to represent the Jews that are carried away.

    THE LORD SHOWED ME, AND, BEHOLD, TWO BASKETS OF FIGS...ONE BASKET HAD VERY GOOD FIGS, EVEN LIKE THE FIGS THAT ARE FIRST RIPE: AND THE OTHER BASKET HAD VERY NAUGHTY FIGS, WHICH COULD NOT BE EATEN, THEY WERE SO BAD. THEN SAID THE LORD UNTO ME, WHAT SEEST THOU, JEREMIAH? AND I SAID, FIGS; THE GOOD FIGS, VERY GOOD; AND THE EVIL, VERY EVIL, THAT CANNOT BE EATEN, THEY ARE SO EVIL. AGAIN THE WORD OF THE LORD CAME UNTO ME, SAYING, THUS SAITH THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL; LIKE THESE GOOD FIGS, SO WILL I ACKNOWLEDGE THEM THAT ARE CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE OF JUDAH, WHOM I HAVE SENT OUT OF THIS PLACE INTO THE LAND OF THE CHALDEANS FOR THEIR GOOD. FOR I WILL SET MINE EYES UPON THEM FOR GOOD, AND I WILL BRING THEM AGAIN TO THIS LAND: AND I WILL BUILD THEM, AND NOT PULL THEM DOWN; AND I WILL PLANT THEM, AND NOT PLUCK THEM UP. AND I WILL GIVE THEM A HEART TO KNOW ME, THAT I AM THE LORD: AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD: FOR THEY SHALL RETURN UNTO ME WITH THEIR WHOLE HEART. AND AS THE EVIL FIGS, WHICH CANNOT BE EATEN, THEY ARE SO EVIL-Jere 24:1-8. The word "figs" is used here eight times denoting the Jews.

    NOW IN THE MORNING AS HE RETURNED INTO THE CITY, HE HUNGERED. AND WHEN HE SAW A FIG TREE IN THE WAY, HE CAME TO IT, AND FOUND NOTHING THEREON, BUT LEAVES ONLY, AND SAID UNTO IT, LET NO FRUIT GROW ON THEE HENCEFORWARD FOR EVER. AND PRESENTLY THE FIG TREE WITHERED AWAY-Mt 21:18,19; ref Mk 11:12-14,20,21. The fig tree withered away, as it was producing no fruit. It may be noted that the word "fig" here represents Israel, and the word "tree" represents nation.

    The nation of Israel did wither and was destroyed. Nevertheless, the nation of Israel was reborn and will fulfill God’s mission during the Tribulation.


    32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

    Now, what does "fig tree" means? what does "twigs get tender and leaves come out" means? what does "summer is near" means? If you can understand what it means then, you will understand what "this generation" was He talking about.

    What it means in my own interpretation is this:
    Now learn this, when you see Israel (fig tree) got its independence (twigs get tender and leaves come out) in May 14, 1948, you will know that summer is near (summer in UK starts from May 15, and generally in the Northern hemisphere, summer starts in June). Truly, I tell you, this generation (those who was born during Israel's independence) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


    I am aware of Luke 21, "“Look at the fig tree, and all the trees". Trees mean nations therefore it means that when Israel became independent in 1948, other nations of that time were also preparing to be independent after realizing that their colonial masters during WW2 were not able to defend their country in times of war. Countries such as India, Pakistan, Philippines, Algeria, Indonesia, Indochina, Burma, Malaysia etc. all struggled to gain independence during the 1940's and 1950's. That period heralds the end of the colonial era and a milestone in world history.
    Many Blessings.
    Last edited by CWH; 12-21-2010 at 07:05 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #5
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    The Palistinian territory that the modern world label as 'Israel' is a secular nation and people. They have no ties to any Covenants. They have no ties to any Religion. They are tour guides on an archeological dig, with their hands out and begging people to come and pay to see and look at a forgotten people that used to live there. A national Barnum Bailey saying, "Come and see the egress" (the archeological 'going' of a people). Very close to the Homosexuel capital of the world and sex slave capital. The whole 'nation' seems to be a carnival side show that will sell anything for a price.

    Cheow, the web site that you brought up is all about 'The End Times'...
    None of the points on this web site can stand the scrutiny of Scriptures. The 'Time of The End' was for Old Covenant Israel. That has passed over 2,000 years ago. The people in the middleeast who calls themselves Israelis are not Old Covenant or New Covenant Israel by any definition of Scripture.
    http://www.amazingbible.org/Document...e_fig_tree.htm
    Brother Les

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Isaiah 66 and revelation 12 seems related and they seems to refer to the birth of the country of Israel:
    To counter your assertions for those who may come along later,

    Isaiah 66 has a first century application and the 'nation' born is the inter-racial inter-non-national 'NATION' of the kingdom of God of the individualized ordinances and freedom of the New and everlasting covenant of Mercy to all peoples, nations, languages and tongues. Compare Dan 7 vss 15ff especially vss 22,27.

    The 'nation' of the everlasting kingdom of God of the coveant of Mercy was "Born" before the trials, tribulation, 'labor pains' came upon the land of judea and City of Jerusalem. The people escaped after the first circling of Jerusalam in keeping with the instructions of Jesus.

    Compare the phrases and ideas of Deut 32 and Isaiah 59 along with Isaiah 61:3 with the concepts in Isaiah 66. Please go to the references as they are presented below.

    We need not 'glorify' the state of Israel as if it were the fulfillment of prophecy. In fact, in doing so, we commit adultery and idolatry against God's Principles and Ordinances established in the Everlasting/individualized covenant of Mercy/restoration promised from Creation, ratified in the first century incarnation and visitation of God and confirmed through the ending and judment upon the 'old covenant system.


    Isaiah 66:1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

    God permitted the building of the temple; but did not command it. Vs 1,2 reflects his disreguard for it and it's ordinances.

    2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

    3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.(Deut 32:16)

    This is referring to the intercovenantal time period of continuing sacrifices after the type being fulfilled in Chirst. Vs's 1-3 also portray God's perspective of the temple and sacrifices from the beginning. He desires MERCY, not sacrifice.


    4I also will choose their delusions, (Deut 32:25) and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. (32:19)

    5Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

    Didn't Jesus say that their enemies would be thinking that they were doing God a favor by exterminating those who believed in Jesus. Didn't Paul feel that way? And he DID appear to their Joy...and the shame of others.

    6A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    (Deut 32:35,41; Is 59:16-18; 61:2)

    Both Isaiah 59 and Deut 32 are given first century context by Paul in Rom 9-11 AND in their historical fulfillments. There was a man ominously name Jesus who went through the city of Jeruslem proclaiming it's woes for the few yrs prior to the desolation. There was a voice heard from the temple saying 'lets get out of here' just before the seige.

    7 “Before she goes into labor,
    she gives birth;
    before the pains come upon her,
    she delivers a son.
    8 Who has ever heard of such things?
    Who has ever seen things like this?
    Can a country be born in a day
    or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
    Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
    than she gives birth to her children.
    9 Do I bring to the moment of birth
    and not give delivery?” says the LORD.
    “Do I close up the womb
    when I bring to delivery?” says your God.
    10 “Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her,
    all you who love her;
    rejoice greatly with her,
    all you who mourn over her. Compare Deut 32:43; Isaiah 61:3
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 12-21-2010 at 12:46 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  7. #7
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    I'm more persuaded now than before that the whole purpose of keeping Israel existent was to produce the Messiah. And now that Messiah has fulfilled his role what use is there of Israel anymore?

    I do have uncertainties though. Because when we read the Old Covenant we see good things such as a murderer should be set on trial and executed under 2 or 3 witnesses. Otherwise the land gets corrupted.

    Obeying such laws is what keeps a nation alive and strong.

    What I do wonder is whether the sacrifices should continue or commandments since Paul presented himself in the Temple because of his oath while preaching the Gospel.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I'm more persuaded now than before that the whole purpose of keeping Israel existent was to produce the Messiah. And now that Messiah has fulfilled his role what use is there of Israel anymore?

    I do have uncertainties though. Because when we read the Old Covenant we see good things such as a murderer should be set on trial and executed under 2 or 3 witnesses. Otherwise the land gets corrupted.

    Obeying such laws is what keeps a nation alive and strong.

    What I do wonder is whether the sacrifices should continue or commandments since Paul presented himself in the Temple because of his oath while preaching the Gospel.

    Paul makes it very clear to those who do not have their head buried in the sand. Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law of Death, but were welcome to The Law of Life by Faith through Grace. Jews and those worshiping at the Temple Cultis were under the Reproach of The Marriage Law of Moses and until "Heaven and Earth pass not one Jot or Tittle of The Law and Prophets shall pass". Even with the Death (murder) of Her (Jerusalems) Husband the terms of the (Mosaic) Marriage Contract had yet to be fulfilled. The Blessings and the Curses of the Marriage Contract would soon come. Paul knew that as long as The Temple stood, it had Standing as the Covenant of Death. The Covenant of Life was only in the Betrothal stage.
    Brother Les

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Paul makes it very clear to those who do not have their head buried in the sand. Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law of Death, but were welcome to The Law of Life by Faith through Grace. Jews and those worshiping at the Temple Cultis were under the Reproach of The Marriage Law of Moses and until "Heaven and Earth pass not one Jot or Tittle of The Law and Prophets shall pass". Even with the Death (murder) of Her (Jerusalems) Husband the terms of the (Mosaic) Marriage Contract had yet to be fulfilled. The Blessings and the Curses of the Marriage Contract would soon come. Paul knew that as long as The Temple stood, it had Standing as the Covenant of Death. The Covenant of Life was only in the Betrothal stage.
    The death of Israel seems to be a shadow of the end of the world. As long as we're in the flesh (about to die sooner or later) we take precautions. Even though we don't take our rest on the 7th day we DO need a day of rest otherwise our body will break down.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Paul makes it very clear to those who do not have their head buried in the sand. Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law of Death, but were welcome to The Law of Life by Faith through Grace.
    This is a point very few Christians understand. When they read Paul's statements about the "Law" they think he is talking about a universal moral law that applies to all people. But that is not correct. When Paul talks about the "Law" he is speaking specifically of the Torah or the Ten Commandments, or sometimes the OT as a whole. When Christians realize that they were never "under" the "law" that Paul spoke of, they will see the entire message of the NT in a different light.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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