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Thread: Ivan Panin

  1. #11
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    You can't leave now!

    Panman, what a relief it was to have your wit and one liners grace my screen! Maaaate I've only started to get to like what I'm hear'n and your choos'n to ditch this site!

    Be not discouraged by the opposing views at this site. People like Cheow, Alec and Myself have sharpened our swords to the max through multiple headbutts at this forum.

    This site attracts a lot of differing mindsets, if only it could be pooled and bridled then we would be a force to be reckoned with!

    The works of Vernon and Craig are out of this world, truly amazing stuff. On the Bible Wheel side Victor, Gilgal, Richard and Rose have compiled heaps of correlated patterns of text gematria and structure according to the order and structure of the bible, and it's about to go 3D once I get of my ass and get my model off to Richard.

    Most of us here are aware of Ivan Panin's work, I too came here via a Panin link, and respect the mammoth amount of effort he put into proving his theory. Yes like all of us he had his moments, yet the main gist of his work is being carried out by this 3rd and 4th generation of researchers right here at this very site and Richard is facilitating it!

    It was good of you to remind him to give Panin a little more credence and show some more respect for the fellow (especially since his site attracts many people here to the BW), but once you get to know RAM you'll find his brand of scepticism is an invaluable sharpening asset to have by your side.

    A lot of switched on believers visit this site daily and it's steadily growing. Your views are needed here to create a balance and give other readers here a feeling that their views are being represented.

    When you look at it from this perspective, it's my hope that you too will come to the conclusion that the Bible Wheel needs us and our views as well as theirs.

    PS. Were you ever into or accustomed with the works of Barry Smith from NZ. He copped a lot of flack for date setting, yet when I saw him at an AOG in Melbourne mid '90's, I found the man to be quite genuine and the information well researched.

    God bless you, your family and your business in the name of Christ Jesus, amen.
    Mick
    Last edited by Mad Mick; 10-23-2010 at 10:47 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mick View Post
    Panman, what a relief it was to have your wit and one liners grace my screen! Maaaate I've only started to get to like what I'm hear'n and your choos'n to ditch this site!

    Be not discouraged by the opposing views at this site. People like Cheow, Alec and Myself have sharpened our swords to the max through multiple headbutts at this forum.

    This site attracts a lot of differing mindsets, if only it could be pooled and bridled then we would be a force to be reckoned with!

    The works of Vernon and Craig are out of this world, truly amazing stuff. On the Bible Wheel side Victor, Gilgal, Richard and Rose have compiled heaps of correlated patterns of text gematria and structure according to the order and structure of the bible, and it's about to go 3D once I get of my ass and get my model off to Richard.

    Most of us here are aware of Ivan Panin's work, I too came here via a Panin link, and respect the mammoth amount of effort he put into proving his theory. Yes like all of us he had his moments, yet the main gist of his work is being carried out by this 3rd and 4th generation of researchers right here at this very site and Richard is facilitating it!

    It was good of you to remind him to give Panin a little more credence and show some more respect for the fellow (especially since his site attracts many people here to the BW), but once you get to know RAM you'll find his brand of scepticism is an invaluable sharpening asset to have by your side.

    A lot of switched on believers visit this site daily and it's steadily growing. Your views are needed here to create a balance and give other readers here a feeling that their views are being represented.

    When you look at it from this perspective, it's my hope that you too will come to the conclusion that the Bible Wheel needs us and our views as well as theirs.

    PS. Were you ever into or accustomed with the works of Barry Smith from NZ. He copped a lot of flack for date setting, yet when I saw him at an AOG in Melbourne mid '90's, I found the man to be quite genuine and the information well researched.

    God bless you, your family and your business in the name of Christ Jesus, amen.
    Mick
    Well , we are the "beating guys" in this forum...Cheow, Alec, Mick, Joel and several others. I guessed we have been hardened and immuned to Preterism; the more they "beat", the harder we become.

    By the way, my view about Panin's work and RAM's Biblewheel is that they are done by fallible human beings and I would certainly expect errors and bias in their works. But anyway, we should give credit for their hard work even if we know that there are errors and bias in their works. I don't take their works as 100% accurate....not even 80%. But they are certainly mind-openers and made us see the scriptures in different perspectives.

    Many Blessings.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mick View Post
    Panman, what a relief it was to have your wit and one liners grace my screen! Maaaate I've only started to get to like what I'm hear'n and your choos'n to ditch this site!

    Be not discouraged by the opposing views at this site. People like Cheow, Alec and Myself have sharpened our swords to the max through multiple headbutts at this forum.

    This site attracts a lot of differing mindsets, if only it could be pooled and bridled then we would be a force to be reckoned with!

    The works of Vernon and Craig are out of this world, truly amazing stuff. On the Bible Wheel side Victor, Gilgal, Richard and Rose have compiled heaps of correlated patterns of text gematria and structure according to the order and structure of the bible, and it's about to go 3D once I get of my ass and get my model off to Richard.

    Most of us here are aware of Ivan Panin's work, I too came here via a Panin link, and respect the mammoth amount of effort he put into proving his theory. Yes like all of us he had his moments, yet the main gist of his work is being carried out by this 3rd and 4th generation of researchers right here at this very site and Richard is facilitating it!

    It was good of you to remind him to give Panin a little more credence and show some more respect for the fellow (especially since his site attracts many people here to the BW), but once you get to know RAM you'll find his brand of scepticism is an invaluable sharpening asset to have by your side.

    A lot of switched on believers visit this site daily and it's steadily growing. Your views are needed here to create a balance and give other readers here a feeling that their views are being represented.

    When you look at it from this perspective, it's my hope that you too will come to the conclusion that the Bible Wheel needs us and our views as well as theirs.

    PS. Were you ever into or accustomed with the works of Barry Smith from NZ. He copped a lot of flack for date setting, yet when I saw him at an AOG in Melbourne mid '90's, I found the man to be quite genuine and the information well researched.

    God bless you, your family and your business in the name of Christ Jesus, amen.
    Mick
    Wow thanks for that awesome post Mad Mick - totally unexpected I might Add, but warmly received and welcomed. I read Barry Smiths book "Warning" when I was 18 years old, 26 years ago.

    Barry's book "Warning" was instrumental in my Salvation; it literally put the fear of God in me. So, I have a special place in my heart for Barry and his work. I think he wrote three others in the Warning series, I read them all and watched all his videos which I was lucky enough to be able to rent from a Christian video store. I don't recall him ever being so foolish to mention a specific date though. He has a website that is still up and running but I was a little disspointed to see how expensive his books are, I would have bought some if they weren't so dear.

    For what it's worth he was drawing pictures of planes crashing into tall buildings and anthrax scares in the early 80s. In my opinion he makes a mockery of the so called truth movement/awakened types. Mind you, so does the Bible. People watch a David Icke, Jordon Maxell or Michael Tsarion clip on Youtube or listen to an Alex Jones presentation and they think they are awake and yet they are only awake to the problem while at the same time are quite content to ignore and even mock the solution, which is of course the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Furthermore they ignore the validity of the message in a book written thousands of years ago that predicts, down to the enth degree, exactly what is happening today.

    As iron sharpens iron so brother strengthens brother is biblical but so to is "Unless we can be agreed we cannot walk together" and I dare say ought not to walk together especially if we cant be agreed on issues of sound doctrine. Evolution doesn't even enter into the frame he is telling us he and his wife are studying evolution and have found "marvelous evidence to support it"? get up off of me with that. He best get on the blower to his new best mate Richgard Dawkins then and set about creating the evolution wheel. I'm scratching my protruding neanderthal like forehead in wonder?? And he's got a Bible wheel?? Dudes on crack, is all I can put it down too!!!!!!!!

    I'm serioulsy done crossing swords with heretics, apostates and bible disinformation thought terrorists. Why do you feel the need to defend a skeptic who claims to have evidence of evolution whilst peddling a bible wheel? Again, thats a bald face liar in action? Such arrogance and deluded ignorance awakens such a fiery holy scorn in me that it is not pretty to watch let alone feel it inside of myself - hence I need to back away and leave it the more patient of my brethren to deal with their ilk. Name them and shame was the Bibles method of dealing with apostate ministers, not working with them. I found his brand of "skepticism" to be unpleasant enough to have realised what a wast of time it was to have bothered joining this site.

    May God bless you and yours richly my brother. Again, your post was a surprisingly nice encouragement to me.


    Panman.

    PS: clearly you have been a contributor of the site for a while and you appear to have repsect for the work of a lot of the people you make mention of. I dont know them but I mean them no ill will, I just call it like my finely and supernaturally transformed mind I sees it, and when I see someone saying the Bible is not inerrent and infallible, frankly I can't be bothered with the whole shooting match after that. As I said, the biblewheel or the ferris wheel or whatever else they want to call it, has about as much use as a cut out from a weetbix packet if the people behind it hold that view and support evolution, these view certainly don't need me, or the Bible either for that matter. Perhaps you need to give some thought as to why you feel the need to defend these guys. That would be my advice to you as a brother in Christ.

    Because you seem to be such a top bloke I promise to check in now and again and say hi and annoy the other "not so" fine folk here, kind of like killing two birds with one stone. lol

    PS: I note that Ram has tamed the introduction to his last hot air apostate ballon filling response, somewhat, from the one I innitially responded too. , in fact it looks like he may have even squeezed in a whole other response which I didn't even see before (obvioulsy that'll be proof of evolution for us)- Which frankly gives me the creeps and hebeejebees and that's on top of apostasy? - not a good look.
    Last edited by Panman; 10-26-2010 at 01:08 AM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    PS: I note that Ram has tamed the introduction to his last hot air apostate ballon filling response, somewhat, from the one I innitially responded too. , in fact it looks like he may have even squeezed in a whole other response which I didn't even see before (obvioulsy that'll be proof of evolution for us)- Which frankly gives me the creeps and hebeejebees and that's on top of apostasy? - not a good look.
    Hey there Panman,

    If you want to write something intelligible, please do so. As it is, you have failed to respond to the points I made. Are you capable of discussing the Bible as a rational human being? If not, why do you bother posting at all? Do you think anyone reading your ravings would mistake you for a genuine Christian?

    I let you post because I have very liberal rules here to encourage free speech and free exchange of ideas. I do not take offense easily, but you are abusing your privileges. You are not offering any intelligent refutation of anything I have written nor any ideas for anyone to work with. So remember, this is my forum. If you want to post here, you need to have some basic level of intelligence and enough common decency to refrain from pissing on the carpet in the living room like some demented fool. If I were to judge by what you have spewed out so far, you would be banned already. But I want to give you a chance to discover your error and to repent of your gross sins, and to behave in a way consistent with your assertion that you that you really believe the things taught in that book you so adamantly claim to be "inerrant and infallible."

    Thanks!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #15
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    Bye for now.

    Panman, in true NZ style you cut to the point without taking the bait of getting caught up in the same old arguments that have been stonewalled time and again. I'll be lookin fwd to the next time you drop in.

    I had only heard an anti Jesus coming sceptic claim that Barry had date set in the 80's. When I saw him in the '90's there was no inkling of that, but like a true fool I spouted something unverified that was stuck in the back of my mind, along with Disney and Hollywood misconceptions of the bible and the odd dose of pure filth.

    Now that I've deleted that thought, it would be interesting to know what he is up to. Someone told me he was dead some years back. It didn't occur to me to do a search online.

    You know it happens every time. I get online then blank I forget all the things I need to do and follow the Bloody Links!

    Triple blessings to you!

    Mick
    So were you worth it?
    Seriously think about it . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . were you worth dying on the cross for?

  6. #16
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    Hey Panman,

    No matter how inerrant the Bible may be, it still must be interpreted by errant humans! Hence, the multitude of different Christian beliefs.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    Dear Ram

    You and I have clearly diametrically opposed views on what the bible is and what it isn't. And thats okay, but Im sorry, I don't have any patience with people who monkey about with the doctrine of the innerency of scripture. You may also be "mystified" to know that as it is the basis of the true Christian biblcal faith (not the apostate biblical view), that millions upon millions of regenretade human beings throughout the history of the human race hold the exact same belief in it as me. That you are mystified by it, tells me that any further conversation regarding the topic will only further frustrate us both.

    Furthermore I already told you I have no intention of discussing your views regarding the bible because they are abhorrent to me (not you, your views). I believe I was simply responding to a rather pleasant post I received from Mad Mike. I didnt realise it was your forum and your living room, I do now, I shall leave you in peace. It would be rude not to. But statements like that, means it is not a forum that promotes free speech, you need to realise that too MY FRIEND.
    Hey there Panman,

    Thanks for sharing your mind and heart in a way that I can understand and engage. This is when things get interesting and potentially fruitful for you, me, and everyone else. I see no reason to think we cannot have a reasonable conversation like two mutually respectful adults. The fact that we may hold some "diametrically opposed views" means that we should have plenty to talk about! I see no reason to think it should make conversation impossible, unless, of course, one (or both) of us let's his fleshly emotions rule and rage where reason should prevail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    The Theory of evolution is the greatest lie ever believed. For the past 150 years indoctrinate the youth the world over away form the biblical creation account. It has been heavily promoted throughout worlds museums, the media, hollywood movies, televions etc etc. It is a lieing conspriracy of epic proportion and it disgusts me no end. in fact it really gets my dander up friend. Not to mention creeps like Dawkins use it to mock God and the holy bible, based again on lies that he has somehow been able to prove evolution to be true. What a load of poppy cock LIES in other words LIES.
    Wow ~ your "dander" certainly is "up." Unfortunately, the condition of your dander is not a test of truth. On the contrary, raised dander is more often than not an indicator of a programmed response, like a dog conditioned to automatically attack anyone seen as a stranger or threat of any kind. And this seems to be what is controlling you. Your understanding has been programmed by anti-science propaganda written by folks with a religious agenda. They do not want you to think ~ they want you to react emotionally by attacking the "lying godless unbelievers" who contradict the mind-controlling dogmas they teach.

    Do you not realize what your words sound like to someone who has not been programmed like you? Raving about a world-wide conspiracy that has fooled the best and the brightest scientists for over a century sounds just plain nuts, especially when it is expressed with "much dander" and not much logic or evidence. And it does not touch the FACT of evolution. That's the real problem. Evolution is demonstrable in real time. Just look at the evolution of resistance to antibodies. But you will say that's only "micro-evolution." Fine ... now we've entered into rational discourse. You admit evolution is true on some level. Therefore, your simplistic accusations of "lies" and "conspiracy" are not so plain and obvious, are they? You would do well to speak with reason if you want to change the minds of reasonable people.

    I get the impression that you have never read a single book by an evolutionary scientist. Is that correct? If so, then why do you believe the anti-scientific propaganda? And how could you be writing a book against ideas that you have never read?


    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    It further disgusts me that a person such as yourself who is grandstanding and promoting some whacky "bible" wheel theory about God knows what exactly, whilst at the same time claiming to have been convinved on the reality of evolution based on fact?
    You should refrain from criticizing things you know nothing of. It makes you look foolish, and it contradicts the "inerrant and infallible" teaching of the Holy Bible.

    This is what blows my mind. Folks proudly hold up the Bible to the sky for all to see and shout about how they really believe it, and then immediately violate its teachings! And so we behold Romans 2:1 fulfilled again right before our eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    This is not just my opnion, there is zero accepted scientific evidence to prove a theory f evolution true and it has vener beev observed, the baisi of all true scientific fact is that it must be "observed" This is avery close subject to my heart at the monet becuase I am awriting abook about and cosequently have doens aloty of study on it, which includes both sides of the argument.
    Your statement is ridiculously false. I get the impression that you have never read a single book written by an evolutionary scientist. Is this correct? If so, how is it possible that you are writing a book about something you have never studied? It's like someone writing a book against Calculus who has never learned to add 1 + 2!

    If, on the other hand, you have read and critiqued a serious book on evolution, I would be delighted to discuss the facts with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    I will go as far as to say that in my opinion, the theory of Evolution has brought more evil into the world than any other doctrine. Hitler thought he was doing the world and the theory of evolution a favour by wiping out 6 miillion "sub human Jews". Thats a fact!
    That is the purest form of propaganda. You have received a twisted history that reverses the facts! Hitler explicitly stated that he was doing "the work of the Lord" when he murdered the Jews. Take a look at this excerpt from Mein Kampf (source):
    "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” – Adolf Hitler
    He frequently promoted Christianity and said he was and always would be a Catholic. We all know about the institutionalized hatred of the Jews as "Christ-killers" deserving of death found in the Christian Church, both Catholic and Protestant. You think Hitler invented the idea that the Jews were "sub-human" or that he based that idea on Darwin? Think again, my friend. Just read these words from another German raised in Catholicism like Hitler. Here are some snippets from Luther's vile book called On the Jews and their Lies:
    In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."[19]
    You can't blame the persecution of the Jews on Darwin! It was religiously driven by dogmatic ideologues who sound very much like those who now are twisting history to attack evolution. It is very important to see what is going on here. You have been programmed to believe that Hitler was the product of Darwin. Nothing could be further from the truth. The German nation would never have gone along with Hitler's RELIGIOUS hatred of the Jews if they had not been programmed by centuries of institutional hatred in the Christian Church.

    So please think about this. The very facts that you are using to prove that evolution is "evil" actually show that institutional Christianity is evil. Oh! The irony!

    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    And your mystified by me? I'm mystified to say the least. You can't have your Bible wheel and evolution too my friend, unless of course you claim to be a theistic evolutiuonist, which you already said you are not. What exactly do you believe about the bible? I know what you don't believe about it? Care to make that clear?
    When I discovered the Bible Wheel, I was a standard non-denominational Bible-believing Christian. Here is how I described myself in my old FAQ:
    Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
    Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded, as explained in my Statement of Faith.
    I was happy to describe myself as a "Biblical fundamentalist" though I never went so far as to say that the Bible was "inerrant and infallible" because I have always recognized those as man-made doctrines that contradict the Bible as given by God.

    The discovery of the Bible Wheel drove me further into a fundamentalist view since I thought it proved that God designed the Bible. The fact that you are willing to gleefully piss on it reveals the true nature of most "Christians" who are dominated not by anything even approaching God's Truth or Spirit, but rather by ludicrous micro-brained cultish moronism that is as far removed from God and Truth as Hitler himself.

    So what do I think it means now? I don't know. I'm still figuring things out. I think it would be an excellent topic of conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    And if the scriptures are not inerrent then what scriptures and what version of the bible is your Bible wheel based on and what exactly is the purpose of the bible wheel any way?
    Even in my most "fundamentalist" stage, I never thought that the primary purpose of the Bible Wheel was to prove the Bible. The fact that it was designed was a necessary consequence of the fact that it was designed. It's like a car. A car is designed to move people from Point A to Point B. It was not designed to prove it was designed!

    The Bible Wheel reveals things in the Bible that simply could not be seen in any other way. It opens Scripture to new and amazing insights. But Christians don't care about that. All they care about is dogma because they have been taught for 2000 years that they are saved by dogma. You have to have the correct set of beliefs or you will not be saved. That's why you are so nuts about "inerrancy." To you, it seems that "Biblical inerrancy" is the Gospel itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    Also what scriptures are accurate and which ones are erroneous?? And who are you to say that God can not preserve His word, in every single language known to man kind on this earth, without having a piece of "original pyprus and ink" the words where first recorded on by human beings. You seem very sure of yourself that it can not be. Why? and based on what? And who are you to say that the original Hebrew and Greek text has not been preserved in con-cordances and other such documents that we have today. Are you awar how meticulous the Jewish Scribe have been throughout the history of their religion with the Old Testament? If they made one wrong stroke of the pen, they had to start the from the begiing again. and if the Bible has not been preserved by God,
    Are you aware of textual variations? We do not have the originals. That's why scholars have to argue about which ancient document is correct. This proves that your doctrine of inerrancy has not "teeth" because we do not possess the original documents, and the documents we do possess DISAGREE with each other.

    Now don't get me wrong. The documents are good enough to give us confidence that the Bible is highly reliable. It just does not allow for the man-made doctrine of inerrancy. And if the Bible is received as GOD'S BOOK then we must accept it as given by GOD. Right? That has been my point from the beginning. If God wanted to give us an inerrant book, it would have been very easy. But he did not do it. And we should not lie about God and His Book, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    PS: if you really must ban, then so be it. But you can forget about the petty threats. I won't be losing any sleep over it, in fact on the contrary Im losing valuable sleep and wasting time writing this - you would be doing me a huge favour.
    I see no need to ban you! On the contrary, as long as you are here to discuss your understanding of God and the Bible and Science and everything, you are most welcome. The only reason I spoke of banning you was because it appeared you were not interested in rational and mutually respectful discourse, which is the way I run my house. But now I get the opposite impression and look forward to a fruitful discussion.

    All the very best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    What on earth did you hope to achieve by quoting Romans 2: 2 on its own??
    I cited Romans 2:1. It is a classic text on religious hypocrisy. If you can not understand it on your own, no explanation will help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    I' am now your proof for your "scripture is erroneous" theory , this simply highlights your mindless inane position on the topic.
    First, I do not have a "scripture is erroneous" theory. I have simply stated the fact that there are errors Scripture. Anyone can verify this fact for themselves.

    Second, I am still waiting for a rational and substantial response to something I have written. Hurling empty and unsupported insults like "mindless inane position" is meaningless because you failed to explain why they are "mindless" or "inane." You gave no evidence for your accusations. No one has any way to know what you are talking about. Therefore, your rude and infantile comments exemplify the definition of "inane" with perfect precision:
    Definition of INANE
    1: empty, insubstantial
    2: lacking significance, meaning, or point : silly <inane comments>
    Therefore, your comments are demonstrably inane and once again we see that you fulfill Romans 2:1.
    Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
    I find it exquisitely ironic that you fulfilled this passage a second time even as you tried to squirm out of its obvious implications. You are an excellent "object lesson" for the study of Christian Hypocrisy. Indeed, you would make an excellent poster child.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Just look at the evolution of resistance to antibodies. But you will say that's only "micro-evolution."
    Umm no thats the wonderful God given immune system, it's nothing to do with evolution, in fact one could argue its homeostasis.
    I think there is a misunderstanding. I meant to write "antibiotics" not "antibodies." My comment had nothing to do with immune systems. I am talking about the change in the DNA of bacteria that enables them to survive in the presences of antibiotics that normally would have killed them. This is the DEFINITION of evolution: A change in the gene frequency in a population. Over time, it leads to the development of different species. Do you agree with the definition of evolution? If not, then we need to clear that up before we could hope to make any progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    You admit evolution is true on some level.
    No I do not. So why and how gives you such mind bending license to even imply I do. If your going lie, Im not playing your game. .
    I'm sorry, I certainly wasn't trying to "lie" about you! I simply assumed that you understood and accepted at least the most basic fact of micro-evolution. I see I must never assume anything ... no matter how obvious it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    The book I am critiquing is The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins. This book is not focused on the Theory of Evolution, But I have read many opinions and books on the topic of evolution. I am a member of John Mackay's Creation Research Website. http://www.creationresearch.net/

    I haven't yet read the Origion of Species, but I plan too next and also the Greatest Show on Earth, by DAwkins.

    What books have you read on the topic?

    At the same time as of right now I'm reading

    The Early Earth by John C Whitcomb,
    The Evolution Conspircay - By Caryl Matriscianna
    God The Big Bang and Stephen Hawking by David Wilkinson (Finished this one)
    21 Scientists Who Believe - Eric C Barrett.
    I'm confused. You chastised me for "assuming" that you have not read any books on evolution by evolutionary scientists, and here in your answer I do not see any books about evolution by evolutionary scientists!

    So is it true? Have you not read any books by evolutionary scientists about the evidence for evolution?

    And another assumption is abundantly confirmed. You are steeping your mind in anti-scientific creationist literature.

    As for the books I've read recently: The best is The Making of the Fittest: DNA and the Forensic Record of Evolution by Sean Carroll. Then I read Jerry Coyne's "Why Evolution is True." A few years ago I read Darwin's Black Box. Those are books relating specifically to the evidence for evolution per se. I've also listened to many hours of lectures by professional biologists, neurologists, and other scientists relating specifically to the discoveries that support the theory of evolution available from various university via iTunes. And I've read other books that are use evolution to arrive at their conclusions, such as the The Cerebral Symphony by William Calvin and Consilience by E. O. Wilson. I also recently read The God Delusion but it wan't focused on evolution per se. The last few days I've been reading "The Story of Philosophy" by Will Durant, which is extremely interesting, especially since philosophy has played a central role in the criticism of religious belief.

    I'll answer more in another post.

    I'm happy to say that it feels like we are almost having a conversation!

    All the very best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panman View Post
    Hi ram, I have given a more full response, Im going to delete the first one, feel free to so the same if you wish - Cheers
    Yeah ... it might be a good idea to delete the "noise" between us. It's not edifying, is it? But I'll wait till things settle down a bit.

    Let's do our best to communicate in a way that will shed more light than heat!

    I kinda get the impression you get a bit "overheated" once in a while. Don't worry about it. But if you can, please try to maintain a more even tone. I will do the same.

    All the very best to you.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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