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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    I would agree with RAM that this is a hoax; no confirmation of giant human skeleton have been found. But on the other hand, can we say that the Bible is wrong and that there were no giants on earth when it clearly says so in Genesis? Also many animals in the ancient times were huge....dinosaurs, elephants, rhinos, dragonfly with 5 feet wing span etc. etc. And the explanation that scientists can give was that the environment and resources at that time were able to support huge animals. Well, don't you think that if the earth could support huge animals at that time, how about huge humans? Based on these 2 arguments from the Bible and science, I would say giant humans once existed on earth and we have yet to find their remains.

    Many Blessings.
    Good points Cheow - many of the creatures in ancient times certainly were a lot different than those living now. But we actually know that Genesis says anything about "giants." The text says:

    KJV Genesis 6:4 There were giants (nephalim) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

    The word "nephalim" literally means "fallen ones." It's from the root "naphal" which means "to fall." (As an aside, I've always been intrigued by the obvious phonetic connection between "fall" and "nephal.")

    Anyway, Young's Literal Translation says "There were fallen ones in the earth in those days..."

    So we don't really know if there were any "giants" or whatever since we don't know what "nephalim" really means. The context doesn't help, it only adds to the confusion by talking about "the sons of God" taking the "daughters of men." No one knows for sure what any of this means. Some think they were fallen angels. Others think they were apostates who had fallen away from the faith. And on it goes ... no one knows what the Bible really means. And this brings up the most important of all questions - why did God give us a Bible with so much confusion and uncertainty? Just to keep us busy? How is anyone supposed to discern the TRUTH with any certainty? Everyone disagrees ....
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #12
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    Hey Ram, after reading lots of your post, you seem to think your omniscient. Please get rid of your ego.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memukan View Post
    Hey Ram, after reading lots of your post, you seem to think your omniscient. Please get rid of your ego.
    Nope - I don't think I'm omniscient. I'm just reasonably well informed. If you recall, I give REASONS for my answers.

    It's funny that your ego jumped up to attack what you imagined was my "ego" with the accusation that I think myself "omniscient." How would you know what I think? I certainly never wrote a word that could be interpreted by any sane man as implying I thought myself omniscient. So now we enter into the most amazing object lesson from Scripture -
    Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
    You must think yourself "omniscient" if you claim to know my private thoughts! Congratulations! You have just won the "I am an egotistical person who attacks others as egotistical" award. Nice work. You deserve a cake:



    Now don't let your ego get all bent outa shape by this playful little "rebuke" I am offering you. Remember, you started this little "ego game." So relax, have some fun, and if I write something that is factually incorrect, please correct me! But don't sic your ego to attack my ego. That never gets anyone anywhere except places they don't want to go anyway.

    Now to tell you the truth - I am absolutely delighted you want to challenge something I have written. That's great since it will help us all discern truth. So rather than telling me to get rid of my "ego" (which is a thing only another EGO would think to say) why don't you choose something I have written that bugged your ego and help me see why I was wrong?

    Sound like a plan? Great!

    All the very best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I think that big circular arrangement of stones is very interesting - cuz I like concentric circles, I guess.

    But the flood story is almost certainly a myth (like the parables Jesus taught), and if not, then local. There is no evidence of a recent world wide flood, so "geologically informed" Christians have long given up on that.

    As for the "brain usage" thang - that is a false urban legend. Snopes debunked it. It should have been pretty obvious anyway - the invocation of the iconic genius "Einstein" should have given it away.

    And finally, the gap theory has no foundation in the Bible. It seems really really strange that folks would want to invent and insert millions of years of undocumented history into the "gap" between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.

    Thanks for the stimulating ideas!

    Richard
    Hi Richard,

    But the flood story is almost certainly a myth (like the parables Jesus taught), and if not, then local.
    In the parables that Jesus taught they did not give specific dates, times, and other historical information. They were more generic like a certain man went on a long journey....etc. However the Genesis flood account provides specific times as how long it lasted, names of people involved (Noah etc) and other historical information. To me it reads more like history. Am I missing something?

    There is no evidence of a recent world wide flood, so "geologically informed" Christians have long given up on that.
    One of the basic principles of modern geology theory is "uniformitarianism", that is, the processes we observe today have gone on throughout geological history. So they interpret all evidence based on that assumption. They give no room for a worldwide catastrophic event that could have shaped the earth's geology. So their conclusions are based on the foundation assumption of uniformitarianism.

    And finally, the gap theory has no foundation in the Bible. It seems really really strange that folks would want to invent and insert millions of years of undocumented history into the "gap" between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.
    I think the gap theory is a very plausible assumption. There is nothing in the Bible that disproves it. Since we know the earth is 4.5 billion years old there was a large intervening gap between when God created the heavens and earth in Gen 1:1 and when God began to fashion and shape the earth to support life in Gen 1:2 and later. As far as "undocumented history" goes it is really not undocumented geologically since we can go back millions of years into earth history.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clifford View Post
    Hi Richard,



    In the parables that Jesus taught they did not give specific dates, times, and other historical information. They were more generic like a certain man went on a long journey....etc. However the Genesis flood account provides specific times as how long it lasted, names of people involved (Noah etc) and other historical information. To me it reads more like history. Am I missing something?



    One of the basic principles of modern geology theory is "uniformitarianism", that is, the processes we observe today have gone on throughout geological history. So they interpret all evidence based on that assumption. They give no room for a worldwide catastrophic event that could have shaped the earth's geology. So their conclusions are based on the foundation assumption of uniformitarianism.



    I think the gap theory is a very plausible assumption. There is nothing in the Bible that disproves it. Since we know the earth is 4.5 billion years old there was a large intervening gap between when God created the heavens and earth in Gen 1:1 and when God began to fashion and shape the earth to support life in Gen 1:2 and later. As far as "undocumented history" goes it is really not undocumented geologically since we can go back millions of years into earth history.
    Flood: It's the first time I hear the flood may not be worldwide. But the only survivors were 8 people!

    The length of days: What I wonder is how a day can be measured if there was no sun, nor moon and stars from the first day? Strange that there was light but no sun. Strange that the vegetation grew with that first light and not by the sun. I don't think I can set a specific time, if there is no orbit of the earth in its' own axis nor sun...it may be 24 hours long or a thousand years long.

    Light and darkness: but even though God created light he let darkness have its' time of reign as well. Night and day were the -th day.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clifford View Post
    In the parables that Jesus taught they did not give specific dates, times, and other historical information. They were more generic like a certain man went on a long journey....etc. However the Genesis flood account provides specific times as how long it lasted, names of people involved (Noah etc) and other historical information. To me it reads more like history. Am I missing something?
    Hey there Clifford,

    When I said "like the parables that Jesus taught" I did not mean "identical to those parables." The obvious difference being such as you noted. I mentioned the parables to remind us that the Bible uses non-literal forms of communication. Now I grant that statements like "on the 17th day of the second month" certainly sound "literal" but then again, so does "and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day." But are the days of Genesis literal 24 hour days? I certainly do not believe so.

    I feel that we are forced in this direction is because to my knowledge, there is no way there could have been a global flood in the last six or seven thousand years. I'm stuck with what appears to be pretty solid facts. The reasons are given below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clifford View Post
    One of the basic principles of modern geology theory is "uniformitarianism", that is, the processes we observe today have gone on throughout geological history. So they interpret all evidence based on that assumption. They give no room for a worldwide catastrophic event that could have shaped the earth's geology. So their conclusions are based on the foundation assumption of uniformitarianism.
    I've heard that before, but I'm not sure how it helps us understand the idea of a global flood. The most obvious problem is the distribution of animals. Why does Australia have kangaroos? How did they get there after the flood just a few thousand years ago? Did they hop from Mount Ararat? Why does all the evidence point to them evolving there on that continent over millions of years? Folks have collected up lists of the problems with the flood and they seem insurmountable to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clifford View Post
    I think the gap theory is a very plausible assumption. There is nothing in the Bible that disproves it. Since we know the earth is 4.5 billion years old there was a large intervening gap between when God created the heavens and earth in Gen 1:1 and when God began to fashion and shape the earth to support life in Gen 1:2 and later. As far as "undocumented history" goes it is really not undocumented geologically since we can go back millions of years into earth history.
    Unfortunately, that doesn't help with the problem of the flood which happened after the gap (if it existed).

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #17
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    Noah's flood was worldwide, from a website:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/crea...1/i3/flood.asp

    Many Christians today think the Flood of Noah’s time was only a local flood, confined to somewhere around Mesopotamia. This idea comes not from Scripture, but from the notion of ‘billions of years’ of Earth history.

    But look at the problems this concept involves:
    If the Flood was local, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and missed it.

    If the Flood was local, why did God send the animals to the Ark so they would escape death? There would have been other animals to reproduce that kind if these particular ones had died.

    If the Flood was local, why was the Ark big enough to hold all kinds of land vertebrate animals that have ever existed? If only Mesopotamian animals were aboard, the Ark could have been much smaller.

    If the Flood was local, why would birds have been sent on board? These could simply have winged across to a nearby mountain range.

    If the Flood was local, how could the waters rise to 15 cubits (8 meters) above the mountains (Genesis 7:20)? Water seeks its own level. It couldn’t rise to cover the local mountains while leaving the rest of the world untouched.

    If the Flood was local, people who did not happen to be living in the vicinity would not be affected by it. They would have escaped God’s judgment on sin. If this happened, what did Christ mean when He likened the coming judgment of all men to the judgment of ‘all’ men (Matthew 24:37–39) in the days of Noah? A partial judgment in Noah’s day means a partial judgment to come.

    If the Flood was local, God would have repeatedly broken His promise never to send such a flood again.

    Belief in a world-wide Flood, as Scripture clearly indicates, has the backing of common sense, science and Christ Himself.


    Many Blessings.
    Last edited by CWH; 10-10-2010 at 07:43 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there Clifford,

    When I said "like the parables that Jesus taught" I did not mean "identical to those parables." The obvious difference being such as you noted. I mentioned the parables to remind us that the Bible uses non-literal forms of communication. Now I grant that statements like "on the 17th day of the second month" certainly sound "literal" but then again, so does "and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day." But are the days of Genesis literal 24 hour days? I certainly do not believe so.

    I feel that we are forced in this direction is because to my knowledge, there is no way there could have been a global flood in the last six or seven thousand years. I'm stuck with what appears to be pretty solid facts. The reasons are given below.


    I've heard that before, but I'm not sure how it helps us understand the idea of a global flood. The most obvious problem is the distribution of animals. Why does Australia have kangaroos? How did they get there after the flood just a few thousand years ago? Did they hop from Mount Ararat? Why does all the evidence point to them evolving there on that continent over millions of years? Folks have collected up lists of the problems with the flood and they seem insurmountable to me.


    Unfortunately, that doesn't help with the problem of the flood which happened after the gap (if it existed).

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    Hi Richard,

    When I said "like the parables that Jesus taught" I did not mean "identical to those parables." The obvious difference being such as you noted. I mentioned the parables to remind us that the Bible uses non-literal forms of communication. Now I grant that statements like "on the 17th day of the second month" certainly sound "literal" but then again, so does "and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day." But are the days of Genesis literal 24 hour days? I certainly do not believe so.

    I feel that we are forced in this direction is because to my knowledge, there is no way there could have been a global flood in the last six or seven thousand years. I'm stuck with what appears to be pretty solid facts. The reasons are given below.
    Granted there are many problems with a global flood, but I don't think we can just dismiss it as a myth. Jesus referred to the flood as a real event and so did Peter.

    As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. Matthew 24:37-39

    By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 2 Peter 3:6

    It must have been a cataclysmic event. If not global, certainly local. But even a local flood has problems jiving with the flood story. For instance how could the water cover the mountains and still be contained locally?

    Unfortunately, that doesn't help with the problem of the flood which happened after the gap (if it existed).
    My point here was not related to the flood, but that the gap theory could be a reasonable assumption given that the earth is billions of years old and life did not appear until quite some time after that.

    Clifford

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clifford View Post
    Hi Richard,

    Granted there are many problems with a global flood, but I don't think we can just dismiss it as a myth. Jesus referred to the flood as a real event and so did Peter.

    As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. Matthew 24:37-39

    By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 2 Peter 3:6

    It must have been a cataclysmic event. If not global, certainly local. But even a local flood has problems jiving with the flood story. For instance how could the water cover the mountains and still be contained locally?
    Hey Clifford,

    I'm glad you understand the problems. It won't do anyone any good to ignore the facts.

    There are many problems besides just the flood. Paul and Christ referred to Adam and Eve as if they were literally the first people ever. And many folks think death was introduced with the fall, whereas we know that critters have been dying for millions of years. And Genesis describes the typical 3-tiered universe with a dome (firmament) that holds up the waters above. We see reference to this 3-tiered universe in Philippians:
    Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven (1), and things in earth (2), and things under the earth (3);
    That's the standard 3-tiered universe of ancient cosmology. It is not correct in any way at all. And yet, it is used in one of the most "exalted" verses speaking of Christ. How are we supposed to understand all this?

    So what are we supposed to do? Allegorize the entire Bible? Why bother with that? Why are we determined to force it to conform to modern scientific knowledge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clifford View Post
    My point here was not related to the flood, but that the gap theory could be a reasonable assumption given that the earth is billions of years old and life did not appear until quite some time after that.
    Yes, but that's just a "stop gap" if you know what I mean. There is literally a FLOOD of ideas in the Bible that simply do not cohere with our modern knowledge of reality. Plugging a hole here or there with ad hoc arguments is not satisfying or convincing and will certainly fail given the magnitude of the problem.

    I have a lot more to say on these questions. I'm in process of putting together a post now.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey Clifford,

    I'm glad you understand the problems. It won't do anyone any good to ignore the facts.

    There are many problems besides just the flood. Paul and Christ referred to Adam and Eve as if they were literally the first people ever. And many folks think death was introduced with the fall, whereas we know that critters have been dying for millions of years. And Genesis describes the typical 3-tiered universe with a dome (firmament) that holds up the waters above. We see reference to this 3-tiered universe in Philippians:
    Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven (1), and things in earth (2), and things under the earth (3);
    That's the standard 3-tiered universe of ancient cosmology. It is not correct in any way at all. And yet, it is used in one of the most "exalted" verses speaking of Christ. How are we supposed to understand all this?

    So what are we supposed to do? Allegorize the entire Bible? Why bother with that? Why are we determined to force it to conform to modern scientific knowledge?



    Yes, but that's just a "stop gap" if you know what I mean. There is literally a FLOOD of ideas in the Bible that simply do not cohere with our modern knowledge of reality. Plugging a hole here or there with ad hoc arguments is not satisfying or convincing and will certainly fail given the magnitude of the problem.

    I have a lot more to say on these questions. I'm in process of putting together a post now.

    All the best,

    Richard
    Hi Richard,

    The Bible is not a book about science and does not claim to be so. For example in one of the Psalms it talks about the sun rising and setting. Of course we know that this is scientifically inaccurate. Many of the things in the Bible about the cosmos, the natural world etc are described in the viewpoint of the knowledge the people had then. So I don't think we can point to a scientific inaccuracy in the Bible and use that to claim the Bible is inaccurate.

    Also, much of what science thinks is true today can change in the future as new information comes forth and new discoveries are made so current scientific theories are subject to revision.

    We base our theories on incomplete knowledge, while what God states in based on his complete knowledge. This was the problem in the book of Job when Job's three friends were trying to explain why all those terrible things were befalling Job. The conclusions they reached were faulty because they were based on incomplete knowledge. I like what God said after they were all done with their theorizing.

    Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:

    "Who is this that darkens my counsel
    with words without knowledge? Job 38:1-2


    The same thing happened in the gospel of John when some of the Jews concluded that Jesus could not be the Messiah because to their knowledge he was born in Nazareth and the Messiah had to be born in Bethlehem.

    On hearing his words, some of the people said, "Surely this man is the Prophet."

    Others said, "He is the Christ."

    Still others asked, "How can the Christ come from Galilee? Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David's family and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?" Thus the people were divided because of Jesus.
    John 7:40-42.

    Sometimes it is our inaccurate intrpretion of the Bible that is the problem. We might be taking a passage literally when it should be taken symbolically. That is the problem the Young Earth Creationists run into. They believe the Bible says the earth is only about 6000 years old despite the scientific evidence to the contrary. So sometimes its our intrepretion that needs adjusting.

    So I think the Bible CORRECTLY interpreted is always true because it is inspired by God who knows all things. But the problem is in correctly interpreting it which is no easy task.

    Great chatting,

    Clifford

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