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  1. #11
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    Hi Joe, thank you for your reply. Of course Jesus is our Lord. Today I was reading in the Koran, picked up a free digital pdf-file from the internet. I liked to state that we are free to read anything we like. About Isaac and Ismael in the Koran I have read a passage that is not Ismael-focussed and the "We" (plural) might be Elohim (God). It is about Abraham:
    71. We saved him and Lot, and carried them to the land which We have blessed for all peoples.
    72. We gave him Isaac and Jacob as a grandson and We made them all just.

    But let's return to the topic:
    Ok, you believe the 12 tribes don't exist anymore. Yeah what can I say, besides mentioning Eretz and Sodom. Maybe one day we discover why there is much written about it. Concerning a description of each tribe, there are reflections of them on the globe. The countries in Europe and the USA reflect to Biblical descriptions, like in names (Dan-Danmark) and weapons of a country or part of a country (the unicorn of Joseph and the lion of Judah of Great Britain, Great Berith-am, covenant of people) and flags and cities (Paris - Perez) and languages and there is an island group called The Hebrides. It is interesting. The Netherlands are a reflection of the description of the tribe of Zebulun (3'40). Hahahaha! they try to sing in Zebulunese.

    All mentioned countries have several similarities, not just one. Of course this does not mean that all inhabitants as an individual of these countries are a member of the lost tribes of Israel, but they reflect it in general. The Jews for example I believe reflect the tribe of the biblical Jehudah, because it is in the name: Jews - Jehudim - those of Jehudah. Also a reflection, a general representation of what is written. Like 'as it is in heaven it is on earth'. The writings came first.

    You might like to read the books of Yair Davidy about the subject and be surprised. There is an interview with him on Youtube.
    Last edited by NumberX; 07-12-2010 at 04:02 PM.

  2. #12
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    Hi Joe, thank you for your reply. Of course Jesus is our Lord. Today I was reading in the Koran, picked up a free digital pdf-file from the internet. I liked to state that we are free to read anything we like.
    Of course you do, and I'm not saying that anyone else could not read the Koran. I myself reject it as it has no value and is based on a race trapped in slavery. Paul shows that Arabia is a symbol of slavery because their descendants would not lead to the birth of the First Born who would set them free. At the same time, this doesn't mean that they cannot come to Christ for His Salvation; many of them have, and still do.

    I've heard of Muslims coming to the United States converting to Christianity once they've come to know the truth.

    About Isaac and Ismael in the Koran I have read a passage that is not Ismael-focussed and the "We" (plural) might be Elohim (God). It is about Abraham:
    71. We saved him and Lot, and carried them to the land which We have blessed for all peoples.
    72. We gave him Isaac and Jacob as a grandson and We made them all just.
    When I debated with the Islamic minister in Bahrain many years ago, he insisted that Abraham was their father, and that the blessing to enter the land we refer to as Israel was a promise made to them. He acknowledged that the Israelites were the first ones to receive the promise through Isaac. But when they were taken out in 70AD, this minister believes that God was passing the blessing on to them. That is part of the reason why you see this conflict between Arabs and Israeli's for more than 5,000 years. Both sides are fighting for something they do not understand. The promised land is not the geographical boundaries in the Middle East. The promised land is the Church; the Kingdom made from Christ.

    But let's return to the topic:
    Ok, you believe the 12 tribes don't exist anymore. Yeah what can I say, besides mentioning Eretz and Sodom. Maybe one day we discover why there is much written about it. Concerning a description of each tribe, there are reflections of them on the globe. The countries in Europe and the USA reflect to Biblical descriptions, like in names (Dan-Danmark) and weapons of a country or part of a country (the unicorn of Joseph and the lion of Judah of Great Britain, Great Berith-am, covenant of people) and flags and cities (Paris - Perez) and languages and there is an island group called The Hebrides. It is interesting. The Netherlands are a reflection of the description of the tribe of Zebulun (3'40). Hahahaha! they try to sing in Zebulunese.
    We can speculate all we want, and who knows? You might be right. But I do not believe it possible for any of the 12 Tribes to exist. Furthermore, they wouldn't be able to prove it. And without proof, all is void as far as I'm concerned.

    Why are the Tribes important? Because in Revelation, there were 144,000 total from each of the 12 Tribes who were sealed. Assuming we're to take this sealing literally, then those Tribes would have to exist today. But how can one know what Tribe they are from if they have no trace of their ancestry? Lastly, the 12 Tribes that were sealed, were sealed from the destruction that was to come; the rest who were not sealed were destroyed. This we know without a doubt was fulfilled in 70AD....absolutely not doubt.

    All mentioned countries have several similarities, not just one. Of course this does not mean that all inhabitants as an individual of these countries are a member of the lost tribes of Israel, but they reflect it in general. The Jews for example I believe reflect the tribe of the biblical Jehudah, because it is in the name: Jews - Jehudim - those of Jehudah. Also a reflection, a general representation of what is written. Like 'as it is in heaven it is on earth'. The writings came first.
    Modern day Jews today? I don't see how. Wearing black coats, black hats, and so forth certainly doesn't sound Jewish to me...at least not from a Biblical sense. Sense Christ is the only way to be a Jew, then anything external is void. Besides, scripture doesn't say that one is saved based on race, but ONLY on faith by Grace. As Ephesians clearly states, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast..."

    Since salvation is by grace through faith, then flesh has nothing to do with it; neither does race, skin color, or blood type; ONLY through faith.

    Therefore, I correctly state that the modern condition of geographical Israel is pointless. This doesn't mean that they don't have a right to exist; they are human just as we are. But this does not merit them special favoritism for salvation, and it certainly does not permit them to maintain their claim as "God's chosen people". Thus, I see no miraculous events being fulfilled in modern day Israel. All I see is continued conflict between those who do not understand.

    You might like to read the books of Yair Davidy about the subject and be surprised. There is an interview with him on Youtube.
    I'll check it out. But I have little interest is theories; only proof. If the Tribes exist, then perhaps I may change my mind, but until then, my position is firm. In my strongest opinion, the 12 Tribes do not exist anymore EXCEPT in the New Jerusalem of Christ as a monumental statement from the design of the Church, as described in Revelation. They live through us, and we through them, as one in Christ.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  3. #13
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    Ok Joe, I agree with much of your thinking, but I can think in more levels then only biblical or only physical. The levels are connected but are not the same. Like a shadow is not your body and your body is not your mind, but it is connected though. You can investigate a body but then you discover heh there is more connected to it. And I don't concentrate on the end of a story, the 144.000, thinking back from the end of a story gives troubles. I have seen it in the Noach story, the ones who think only from Ararat don't see anymore what it is about. Just a relaxed step by step discovery from the beginning is easier. Then you see by evidence that there are more levels they apply to. Of course the ones who say the land on the globe and it's inhabitants, thay's what it is all about, those I disagree with. Now let me introduce another level:

    Ruben comes from ROëH, 200-1-5, and that means seeing
    Shimon comes from SHEMA, 300-40-70 and that means hearing
    Levi means (my) loyalty, connected
    Judah comes from praise
    Then Leah stops bearing
    Then etc.

    Also on this level we can find the Lost tribes of Israel being alive, on the level of the W(w)ord itself. You conclude with "They live through us, and we through them, as one in Christ". I say yes you are right, in this way.
    Last edited by NumberX; 07-13-2010 at 11:05 AM.

  4. #14
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    216

    Smile

    Hi Number X and Joe,

    NX > 71. We saved him and Lot, and carried them to the land which We have blessed for all peoples.
    72. We gave him Isaac and Jacob as a grandson and We made them all just.

    Gil > That may be so.
    And Yahwah was his name. The desert God of the Kinite priest of Midian.
    There is a correlation between the war God of Sinai who would led the children of Israel into battle to destroy her enemies and the war God of Islam who would led The children of Ishmael in Jihad against their enemies to destroy them.
    The sins of Israel and in all probability those of Islam were fully exposed by
    The Law. Without the Law there would be no sin and as it turned out the Law was taken to the cross that the covenant of Grace and mercy through Faith may Be established.
    It was how they all were made just.

    The examples given by the story of Abraham/Isaac/Ishmael and
    The episodes that took place with Moses, the angel and Sinai and also the entire backdrop of the book of Job is about the Gods/spirits and nature of man.

    About the twelve tribes:

    At the dispersion of the Northern Kingdom, Sister House of Israel first
    taken captive by the Assyrians and then from there dispersed, some of whom Paul also calls gentiles went to the Mediterranean areas (Rome for one) and the rest to the various areas within Europe that became the countries that were listed.
    The Sister House of Judah dispersed from their Babylonian captivity to the what was known as the Persian Empire areas. I think it was only a small percentage that returned to Jerusalem and most of the scribes were Kinites that returned with them.

    The tribe of Benjamin became a part of the house of Judah and was the Army of Judah.
    One may also see them as being the remnants of Israel (the northern sister nation ).

    The twelve tribes have been assimulated into the rest of the flesh man that would be under the covenant of grace and mercy after AD70.
    That is those who have accepted the gift offered.
    Those that have not heard are still judged according to their actions , words and deeds through conscience, which presents some kind of record. (IMO)

    Most people now are to far removed from the time period to be directly associated through bloodlines of any of the tribes, but through nationalities and languages it may be seen that a relationship may have existed.
    The genetics of DNA and MTDNA of most if not all testing can show the general area of ancestry but not that far in the past.

    I actually had my own dna and mtdna tested several years ago.
    It is easier to determine the female side of the family tree than the male.
    Both of my Parents and their parents were Finnish and my testing showed up
    to be in the area of Finland and through contacts made in Finland who had visited Israel (present) found out a lot more when they inquired there.
    It was through a search there of names and the changes made to them over
    the many years in spelling etc. , that showed our last name to be associated
    and part of the tribe Issachar - Finland.
    My grandparents that immigrated here from Finland for whatever reason
    changed our last name from Lukerilla to Hendrickson.

    In the end it was tracking the variations of our last name over many years
    that backtracked to the tribe.
    It was through the female mtdna with its much larger base that made it that far. The search through last names was done at the genealogy records section at the Hebrew university there.

    Joe > Paul shows that Arabia is a symbol of slavery because their descendants would not lead to the birth of the First Born who would set them free.

    Gil > Were not the children of Israel trapped in the slavery of the Law?
    Couldn't it be called the Law of the Land/Earth contrary to the Law of the Spirit, the true God?

    Joe > When I debated with the Islamic minister in Bahrain many years ago, he insisted that Abraham was their father, and that the blessing to enter the land we refer to as Israel was a promise made to them. He acknowledged that the Israelites were the first ones to receive the promise through Isaac. But when they were taken out in 70AD, this minister believes that God was passing the blessing on to them.

    Gil > That's interesting.
    That may in fact be true. The Land promise made to Ishmael was probably first and was Made to him. The curse of the Law went along with that blessing.
    The Children of Israel through Abraham/Isaac/Jacob thought that the blessing was theirs, but in fact the blessing to them was of the promise of a seed to come. Christ Jesus.
    The blessing/curse given to Ishmael was then given at Sinai through Moses.
    The same God of war and destruction that gave Israel the Law and Land promise To enter the promised land was Yahwah. It was this curse that would put Israel into the same bondage as was the children of Ishmael.
    I wonder what was written on the first set of tablets that Moses brought down The mount. Suppose all that was written upon them was Grace and Mercy?
    Of course the second set was the Law.
    Yahwah was the God of the Earth/Land.
    He was not the God of the Spirit of Life.
    Yahwah was a God of war.

    Gil

  5. #15
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    Feb 2010
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    296
    Ah Gil you understand on that level of the Lost Tribes that the flat laky Finland represents Issaschar. I like to add that the mountainous Switserland also connects to Issaschar because of the blessing given to Issaschar and the swiss watches.

    It is interesting to detect on what levels, spheres, a person speaks about the Lost Tribes. In the hebrew word for a tribe - we are on a site where hebrew is teached - it connects in first place to what is meant. See my previous post. In that way it is not a 'far from our bed show'.
    Last edited by NumberX; 07-14-2010 at 04:06 AM.

  6. #16
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    Jun 2007
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    Genesis 5:1 says that the genealogical records of Adam were completed at that time..........then, after that, humans are generated upon the earth.

    Each of us was placed in the book before our physical birth.

    Why are we debating about God losing track of who's who?

    It seems like such a waste of time to me.

    He knew you then.

    He knows you now.

    He hasn't lost track,

    He hasn't changed His plan,

    You were in His mind when He created man.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  7. #17
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    So instead of proving what Tribe they are from, we just have to rely on God to secretly keep the 12 Tribes in existence; in short, they no longer have to provide evidence of their ancestral birth, as was required by them in the Old Testament.

    So once again, like brother Choew, we're to rely on the "God can do it" faith, instead of "will He do it as it was/is written" faith? All promises of God are made via scripture by the Prophets. I see no scripture to suggest a restoration of the Tribes, especially in the book of Revelation; the last remaining book of prophesy in the Bible. If it's not written, the it should not be expected.

    There are no Tribes. When you get down to it, we are all descended from them as Noah, the last remaining family after the flood, is our descendant. And sense we all came from him, then we are all part of the 12 Tribes. What's that I hear? Is that an objection? Well then, if you object to that, and insist that Tribes must be purely Israeli, and not American, European, Japanese, or any other race but strictly Israeli, then this would prove my case as pure blood line Israeli's have not existed since the first century.

    Can God do it? Of course He can. The question is, "Will He do it?" And if it's something He will do, then it's obviously something He foretold in Prophesy through the prophets. Are there any prophets in Israel today? Do they (modern day Israel) even know that God is going to restore their Tribal ancestry? Hmmm?

    None that I've been made aware of; via scripture that is.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 07-14-2010 at 06:39 AM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  8. #18
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    Feb 2010
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    296
    Quote:
    "None that I've been made aware of; via scripture that is".

    Well we can ask ourselves why there are such persons that want to say A all the time, making the distance between the w(W)ord to the earth wide, while in my previous posts real connections are being made. I think the best is that whoever wants it, talks a bit to them and then tjah, just leave them. Because

    they can't see. Ruben however comes from seeing.
    They don't hear. Shimon however comes from hearing.
    They aren't loyal and don't praise God. Etc.

    We can ask ourselves why they have posted more then a thousand posts and their mind still can't understand some simple things. I guess it is a kind of sickness to see connections and then write I am not aware. Their understanding doesn't develop anymore I guess. To me they then are plain dumb. Others can say I don't think they were bright at school also. lol.
    Last edited by NumberX; 07-14-2010 at 09:24 AM.

  9. #19
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    Tribal Records

    I don't see it as a matter of what God can do....because we all know God can do anything!

    And it's not a matter of the 12 tribes being hidden away somewhere only to be revealed by God at the appropriate time....because by now all the tribes are so "watered down" genetically that a good percentage of the people on the planet could be part Jew.

    There was a very good reason for tribal records. The Messiah was prophesied to come from the tribe of Judah....it didn't matter that Gentile blood was mixed with Jewish blood for we know that some main figures in the lineage of Jesus were Gentiles (Rahab, and Ruth), but what did matter is the Tribal Records. Without tribal records there is no proof of anything, so even if there were people hidden away who claim to be of the 12 tribes, there is no proof in existence (Oh, but I guess God could miraculously reveal some hidden scrolls in a cave in the desert..), and without proof, it's a mute point.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #20
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    Nov 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    I don't see it as a matter of what God can do....because we all know God can do anything!

    And it's not a matter of the 12 tribes being hidden away somewhere only to be revealed by God at the appropriate time....because by now all the tribes are so "watered down" genetically that a good percentage of the people on the planet could be part Jew.

    There was a very good reason for tribal records. The Messiah was prophesied to come from the tribe of Judah....it didn't matter that Gentile blood was mixed with Jewish blood for we know that some main figures in the lineage of Jesus were Gentiles (Rahab, and Ruth), but what did matter is the Tribal Records. Without tribal records there is no proof of anything, so even if there were people hidden away who claim to be of the 12 tribes, there is no proof in existence (Oh, but I guess God could miraculously reveal some hidden scrolls in a cave in the desert..), and without proof, it's a mute point.


    Rose
    Does genetic records count?....or do we still rely on tribal records to identify who is the father of a child? Sounds old fashion. Living in the 21 century, we use genetic records, DNA and not tribal records.

    Many Blessings.

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