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  1. #1
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    Salvation for All….the Greater Good

    If salvation for all is the "Greater Good", and God’s will is that all be saved….can God do anything less than Save All? If God has spoken even one time that all men shall be saved, can He do any less then save all men and still remain true to His Word?
    .
    1Tim.2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him (Jesus) power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

    Rom.11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    .
    If the Apostle Paul, being but a mere man desired the "Greater Good" for all men, and that is to be saved, can any less be expected of God?
    .

    Rom.10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    1Cor.10:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

    1Cor.10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
    .
    We know with God all things are possible, and God works all things according to His own will, so if it is God’s desire that all men be saved….it must be so.
    .
    Eph.1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    .
    If one can be saved….two can be saved, all can be saved!


    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 05-18-2010 at 09:09 AM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  2. #2
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    Rose,

    Amen.

    When Paul contrasted the two men, Adam and Christ, in Romans 5, it is apparent that all persons were made sinners.....in Adam, and.....all are subject to death. That includes every person without exception.

    We know that Christ's sacrifice far over shadows the sin, offense, transgression of Adam..............so........all = all. To force it to say otherwise is to interject a foreign statement into the facts of truth.

    I hear many force into the statements.....free will.....well......did you have anything to say about the 1st all?

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    If salvation for all is the "Greater Good", and God’s will is that all be saved….can God do anything less than Save All? If God has spoken even one time that all men shall be saved, can He do any less then save all men and still remain true to His Word?
    .
    1Tim.2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him (Jesus) power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

    Rom.11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    .
    If the Apostle Paul, being but a mere man desired the "Greater Good" for all men, and that is to be saved, can any less be expected of God?
    .

    Rom.10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    1Cor.10:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

    1Cor.10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
    .
    We know with God all things are possible, and God works all things according to His own will, so if it is God’s desire that all men be saved….it must be so.
    .
    Eph.1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    .
    If one can be saved….two can be saved, all can be saved!


    Rose
    Hi Rose,

    1Tim.2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    God's will is not always done. For example, its God's will for a Christian not to lie or steal. However you could find a Christian that has lied or stole.

    John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    Might believe.. Might means possible, not something that will take place.

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
    Will draw all men unto me to give them the opportunity to receive salvation. But its still a persons choice.

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him (Jesus) power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
    Only to as many as thou hast given him. Does not say to everyone.

    Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
    Seeing the salvation of God and receiving it is two different things.

    Rom.11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    He has mercy upon all, but that does not mean all receive His mercy.

    .
    If the Apostle Paul, being but a mere man desired the "Greater Good" for all men, and that is to be saved, can any less be expected of God?
    God desires it, but not all receive it.

    We know with God all things are possible, and God works all things according to His own will, so if it is God’s desire that all men be saved….it must be so.
    It God's desire that His children walk in His ways and not sin, but we know that we slip up from time to time. So desiring something does not mean it will come to pass, even with God.

    If one can be saved….two can be saved, all can be saved!
    All can be saved, but all won't be saved. That is clear from numerous other scriptures that I have quoted in previous posts. So the scriptures you quoted above must be interpreted in light of those scriptures. They do not stand alone.

    Clifford

  4. #4
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    Hi Rose,

    Aa we all know "all" in the bible sometimes does not really mean all i.e everything or everyone. It just an exaggeration see some examples:

    Dan 2:39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you; and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

    This is the kingdom of Greece, which is said to rule over ALL THE EARTH.

    Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days [that] a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.


    So can all really be saved? No, except those who does the will of the Father in heaven...simple, clear and direct:

    Matthew 7:21
    "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    Many Blessings.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clifford View Post
    Hi Rose,



    God's will is not always done. For example, its God's will for a Christian not to lie or steal. However you could find a Christian that has lied or stole.



    Might believe.. Might means possible, not something that will take place.



    Will draw all men unto me to give them the opportunity to receive salvation. But its still a persons choice.



    Only to as many as thou hast given him. Does not say to everyone.



    Seeing the salvation of God and receiving it is two different things.



    He has mercy upon all, but that does not mean all receive His mercy.



    God desires it, but not all receive it.



    It God's desire that His children walk in His ways and not sin, but we know that we slip up from time to time. So desiring something does not mean it will come to pass, even with God.



    All can be saved, but all won't be saved. That is clear from numerous other scriptures that I have quoted in previous posts. So the scriptures you quoted above must be interpreted in light of those scriptures. They do not stand alone.

    Clifford
    Hi Clifford,

    Precisely....all can be saved at some point in time if God so desires, for God works all things after the counsel of His own will. If God desires to have mercy upon all, He will have mercy upon all - nothing more needs to be said.
    Eph.1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    As I said before; it is one thing for God to have mercy on all, but all don't receive it, and quite another for God to create a place of eternal punishment for those who don't receive His mercy.

    The way I look at it is to see all those who have not received God's mercy as remaining outside the gates of the New Jerusalem until they ask to receive of the living water....at which time they will enter in and partake of God's mercy.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Clifford,

    Precisely....all can be saved at some point in time if God so desires, for God works all things after the counsel of His own will. If God desires to have mercy upon all, He will have mercy upon all - nothing more needs to be said.
    Eph.1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    As I said before; it is one thing for God to have mercy on all, but all don't receive it, and quite another for God to create a place of eternal punishment for those who don't receive His mercy.

    The way I look at it is to see all those who have not received God's mercy as remaining outside the gates of the New Jerusalem until they ask to receive of the living water....at which time they will enter in and partake of God's mercy.

    Rose
    The way I look at it is to see all those who have not received God's mercy as remaining outside the gates of the New Jerusalem until they ask to receive of the living water....at which time they will enter in and partake of God's mercy.
    Hi Rose,

    I agree that those who have not received God's mercy remain outside the gates of the New Jerusalem as it says in Rev 22:15

    Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.

    In Rev:21:8 it further elaborates on this.

    All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children.

    'But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.'

    This is in accord with Rev 20:14-15.

    Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Not only are they outside the gates of the New Jerusalem but are in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

    Nowhere does it say they will get another chance to come into the New Jerusalem. That is just an assumption on your part not backed up by scripture.

    We know from Heb 9:27 it is appointed unto men to die once then comes the judgment. According to Heb 6:2 one of the elementary teaching about Christ is eternal judgment.

    God's judgment is eternal which I take to mean its final and irreversible.

    Clifford

  7. #7
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    Clifford,

    I respectfully ask you to consider that........
    the words aionios, aionian, aion;
    in innumerable contextual settings cannot mean "eternal".
    Do a word study and determine for yourself.
    Please don't accept what someone says......they may have it wrong.

    God's disciplinary acts do not continue without ceasing.......such a notion makes God to be One Who cannot bring to a finality His work of salvation, but, must continual accept a partial deliverance.

    All means all.

    He will save all.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clifford View Post
    Hi Rose,

    I agree that those who have not received God's mercy remain outside the gates of the New Jerusalem as it says in Rev 22:15

    Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.

    In Rev:21:8 it further elaborates on this.

    All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children.

    'But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.'

    This is in accord with Rev 20:14-15.

    Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Not only are they outside the gates of the New Jerusalem but are in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

    Nowhere does it say they will get another chance to come into the New Jerusalem. That is just an assumption on your part not backed up by scripture.
    Hi Clifford,

    It is by no means an assumption - it is indeed backed up by Scripture! It doesn't get any clearer or plainer than WHOSOEVER WILL!
    Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    There is no more a literal Lake of Fire, then there is a literal New Jerusalem, both are symbolic terms.

    New Jerusalem = Believers in Christ
    Lake of Fire = the state of being of those are in who are not in Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by Clifford View Post
    We know from Heb 9:27 it is appointed unto men to die once then comes the judgment. According to Heb 6:2 one of the elementary teaching about Christ is eternal judgment.

    God's judgment is eternal which I take to mean its final and irreversible.

    Clifford
    If you take God's eternal judgment as final and irreversible, then you must also take God's eternal Mercy as final and irreversible! The very nature of the word MERCY means to forgive a judgment, so as long as mercy lasts there can be no irreversible judgment made.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Clifford,

    I respectfully ask you to consider that........
    the words aionios, aionian, aion;
    in innumerable contextual settings cannot mean "eternal".
    Do a word study and determine for yourself.
    Please don't accept what someone says......they may have it wrong.

    God's disciplinary acts do not continue without ceasing.......such a notion makes God to be One Who cannot bring to a finality His work of salvation, but, must continual accept a partial deliverance.

    All means all.

    He will save all.

    Joel
    Hi Joel,

    Did some research on the word aion, aionion, and found that it can mean eternal or refer to a finite period of time, like an age, depending on the context. Here are a few examples where aionion is used to mean eternal.

    John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

    Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Clearly the word aionion is the above two verses means eternal. Our eternal life in Christ has no end. If you always interpret aionion to mean a finite period of time then our life in Christ is really not eternal and will come to an end.

    Here is another verse where aionion means eternal according to the context.

    1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen.

    We know God's dominion will not come to an end so aionion in this context mean eternal.

    God's disciplinary acts do not continue without ceasing.......such a notion makes God to be One Who cannot bring to a finality His work of salvation, but, must continual accept a partial deliverance.

    All means all.
    God's salvation is available to all, but only those who believe and receive it will partake of it. If God made everyone accept His salvation then why doesn't he just make everyone receive His salvation now and the world would be a much better place.

    If you believe all will be saved then how do you explain verses such as these.

    Matt. 25:46, And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life.

    Note the same word for eternal (aionion) is used of those who go away into eternal life and those who go into the eternal fire.

    2 Thess. 1:9, And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

    Jude 7, Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire.

    Clifford

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Clifford,

    It is by no means an assumption - it is indeed backed up by Scripture! It doesn't get any clearer or plainer than WHOSOEVER WILL!
    Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    There is no more a literal Lake of Fire, then there is a literal New Jerusalem, both are symbolic terms.

    New Jerusalem = Believers in Christ
    Lake of Fire = the state of being of those are in who are not in Christ



    If you take God's eternal judgment as final and irreversible, then you must also take God's eternal Mercy as final and irreversible! The very nature of the word MERCY means to forgive a judgment, so as long as mercy lasts there can be no irreversible judgment made.

    Rose
    Hi Rose,

    It is by no means an assumption - it is indeed backed up by Scripture! It doesn't get any clearer or plainer than WHOSOEVER WILL!
    Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    There is no more a literal Lake of Fire, then there is a literal New Jerusalem, both are symbolic terms.

    New Jerusalem = Believers in Christ
    Lake of Fire = the state of being of those are in who are not in Christ
    Remember, Jesus was speaking those words through John to people who were alive at that time, not to those who were already dead. So the whosoever will is an invitation to those who were alive to come to the water of life.

    I agree that the Lake of Fire is the state of those who are not in Christ. That is why they are in that place. Whether it is literally a place of burning sulfur or not is besides the point, which is, it is a place where those who have not received eternal life through Christ go. As I said in my previous post, it does not say whether those who go to that place will ever get a chance to get out. That is what I meant when I said you were making an assumption that they would. I find it interesting that the Lake of Fire is called the second death.. Sounds like irreversible finality.

    Clifford

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