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  1. #21
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    Who are the 144,000???

    The book of Revelation was written to whom? It was written to the Christians of the first century? What did the term 144,000 mean to the first century Christians? We only look over their shoulders to see what it meant to them and then we can see what it means to us - just like all the books in the Bible. None were written directly to us. None!!!

    The correct listing of the 12 tribes of Israel from the book of Chronicles...
    1 Chron. 2:1-2 (KJV)

    These are the sons of Israel;
    Reuben,
    Simeon,
    Levi,
    Judah,
    Issachar,
    Zebulun,
    Dan,
    Joseph,
    Benjamin,
    Naphtali,
    Gad,
    Asher


    The symbolic listing of the tribes (144,000) in REVELATION.
    JUDAH – Who came from the tribe of Judah? Who was the firstborn of the New Covenant? The firstborn was always listed first - and in the O.T. listing the firstborn is always Reuben. But in this symbolic listing Judah is first - WHY!! Because the firstborn of this company of people is Jesus. He is at the head of this group of people and the name Judah which means “praise.”
    Reuben - who sees the son
    Gad - a band; a troop
    Asher – happiness
    Naphtali - that struggles or fights
    Manasseh - forgetfulness
    Simeon - that hears or obeys
    Levi - associated with him
    Issachar - reward; recompense
    Zebulun - dwelling; habitation
    Joseph - increase
    Benjamin - son of the right hand
    (Benoni) - son of my sorrow, or pain

    So the meaning of the 144,000 is contained in the meaning of the names and that of the Firstborn. Why did God use so much space in the Bible to describe the birth of these 12 boys in the first place?

    The first question that has to be answered is, why is John's list a botched up mess? Can't he remember the proper listing of the tribes of Israel? No one has given a good and logical reason for this that I have heard. The reason that it is "Botched" up is because he is drawing symbols out of the Old Testament and he does this all through the book of Revelation. There are about 235 allusions to the Old Testament in this book.

    So the "symbolic" picture of the 144,000 is a company of the people of God for all time, who at their head is the firstborn Son seated at God’s right hand. A company of people who are happy and full of praise. An army who fights and obeys the one who has forgotten all of their sins; and they will increase and receive a reward and dwell with him forever. This was good news in particular to someone facing starved lions in the arenas of Rome.

    As Rachel lie dying of childbirth with Benjamin – she named him “Benoni” that means “son of my suffering.” Jacob said no - he will be called “Benjamin” – son of my right hand. What a beautiful picture of Christ we have been given. He is our Benoni - Benjamin.

    Reference:
    Genesis 35:17-18 (NASB)
    And it came about when she was in severe labor that the midwife said to her, "Do not fear, for now you have another son." 18 And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

    So what about the two tribes that were left out? They simple did not fit the message of the author...
    Ephraim – fruitful
    Dan - judgment

    God is not judging this company – they have escaped his judgment and wrath. You also need to take into account the fact that the 144,000 is mentioned in several places in Revelation. Are these all the same group or are they different? Lets look for a moment.

    Rev. 7:4 (NASB)
    And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

    Rev. 14:1 (NASB)
    And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

    Rev. 14:3 (NASB)
    And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
    After the the 12 tribes were listed, John looked and saw the 12 tribes that were just described and here is what he saw.

    Rev. 7:9 (NASB)
    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

    Looks to me like its all the same group that we described initially, but instead of being “Sealed” they had the name of the Son and the Father on their foreheads - Same difference. In 14:3 they were purchased from the earth – the persecuted and martyred Saints of God. (There were an estimated 2,100,000 Christians martyred under the Roman empire.) Same group as the others all associated by the number 144,000. It relates first to the people to whom it was written in appx 92AD, but after that - to all Saints who have been tested on the Earth including us today. The redeemed company of the Lord were the only ones who could learn the new song because it was a song learned from the trials and tribulations of life on Earth. Does this make sense to you?

    Numbers in the Book of Revelation are “Symbols” and not arithmetic. 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10. These are numbers which symbolize the unknown number of believers in this group. Revelation had to be simple for the people to understand in their day because a lot of the Christians then were uneducated slaves.

    So why do I think this is the correct interpretation of the 144,000? Several reasons. First of all this interpretation is simple, and It also meant something to the Christians of the First century. It means something to all Christians of all ages throughout history from out of its original context - including us today, and will be a blessing to those who are yet to be born - should the Lord delay his coming even longer. It doesn’t change with time or with current events; and it doesn’t just apply to a few select people somewhere out in the distant, obscure future.

    Larry
    Last edited by Codger; 02-18-2010 at 07:35 PM.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." James Elliot - Martyr

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    Richard, Part of what Joseph 'learned' in his time in prison was an essential principle worth considering. It's the principle of 'established' by God having occurred twice.

    Ge 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass. {established...: or, prepared of God} (KJV)

    Could this be that when Jesus said 'as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be'? If the events in the history of the Israelites are given as instruction (a pattern on earth) there are many things that must indeed be established.
    It's not that Christ has not done it all. In fact, it was all done before anything was ever created. It's that it must be established on earth by having occurred twice.
    Hey there Paul,

    You have touched upon the essence of The Fundamental Principle of Biblical Hermeneutics which declares that every word must be established by at least two or three clear and unambiguous witnesses.

    God has established truth for us in Scripture by doubling, tripling, and often quadrupling the witnesses to it.

    Now on the one hand, it sounds like you are simply suggesting that the history of Israel serves as a typological witness to the truths of the New Testament. We know this is true because God told us so:

    1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples (types), and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

    But it seems that you are extending this idea to suggest that we invent speculations about the future based on the history of Israel. I see no justification for this idea at all. On the contrary, the invention of speculations about the future is one of the primary sources of errors and false doctrine that has plagued the Body of Christ from the beginning. It should be avoided at all costs. Indeed, the primary purpose of the Fundamental Principle is to eliminate all unfounded speculations since they destroy our witness to the truth.

    Many blessings my friend,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    What I mean is that the 1st seal, the white horserider, which represents the spread of Christianity since 1st century is still on-going to this day. The second seal, the red horserider, which represents communism is still on-going as there are still communist countries around even though communism has lost its fervor. The 3rd seal to the 7th seal are yet to come. The 3rd seal is on the way. That is my personal opinion. Am I entitled to my own personal belief?

    Many Blessings.
    Cheow, I honestly would have no difficulty in believing what you say IF you can bring forth Scriptural support for your assertions (personal opinions). Is this not what our faith is to be based upon?

    My personal opinion about what you said is that you are going to have much difficulty in proving the red horse represents communism. Does that mean that all things red in the Bible infer communist ties of some sort? And if not, why not?
    Last edited by Edward Goodie; 02-18-2010 at 01:16 PM.

  4. #24
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    Richard,
    You're certainly correct about multiple witnesses. The difference in this revelation that Joseph got (1 of several) in his time 'in the hole' is that this one was referring to 'events'. It's a solid principle. Consider all the things that happened 'twice' in scripture.
    for you are NOW Light; walk as Sons of Light Eph 5:8

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    Richard,
    You're certainly correct about multiple witnesses. The difference in this revelation that Joseph got (1 of several) in his time 'in the hole' is that this one was referring to 'events'. It's a solid principle. Consider all the things that happened 'twice' in scripture.
    Mr. Eagle,

    Why do you post under my post and then address Richard? You must reply to the post you wish to respond to. It gets very confusing if one doesn't do this. It gets even more confusing when the wrong post is replied to and no particular name is used in the address...

    And can you start me off with one or two different examples where you consider the same event occurring twice? I just want to be sure I understand where you are coming from...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    Richard,
    You're certainly correct about multiple witnesses. The difference in this revelation that Joseph got (1 of several) in his time 'in the hole' is that this one was referring to 'events'. It's a solid principle. Consider all the things that happened 'twice' in scripture.
    I'm glad we agree about the importance of multiple witnesses.

    I get the impression that you desire to predict the future by looking at patterns in Scripture. Is this correct?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #27
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    I never said anything about 'predicting the future'. There are patterns in the Bible to be observed and this principle is worth paying attention to. Or not.
    for you are NOW Light; walk as Sons of Light Eph 5:8

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    I never said anything about 'predicting the future'. There are patterns in the Bible to be observed and this principle is worth paying attention to. Or not.
    Yes indeed, that is a great principle! It is taught in Scripture in many places.

    But I thought you were trying to predict the future by comparing current events with events in the Bible. That's something else altogether. I don't see any support for that idea in the Bible at all.

    So if you are not trying to predict the future, what did you mean when you spoke of the "unfolding of events" and the "days that are fast coming upon us?" That sounds like predicting the future to me. Did I misunderstand your words? Here is an example of what I mean (from your Preparing for the days ahead thread).
    I completely realize that some folks here don't see the times we're going into as tribulation. That's okay but I'd like to give you these scriptures to consider.
    More than that, I'd like to make them available to those that are of that mindset. The question is what we individually (and as heads of families) should consider as a matter of faith. Out of fear, Noah prepared an Ark. I'm not suggesting that anyone should respond out of human fear, but out of fear and trembling for His Living Word for these days that are fast coming upon us.
    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    Mr. Eagle,

    Why do you post under my post and then address Richard? You must reply to the post you wish to respond to. It gets very confusing if one doesn't do this. It gets even more confusing when the wrong post is replied to and no particular name is used in the address...

    And can you start me off with one or two different examples where you consider the same event occurring twice? I just want to be sure I understand where you are coming from...
    Hey there TS,

    Yes, it's a good idea to include at least a bit of quote from the post when responding, and even address the user so folks will know who is talking to whom. But you figured it out .. so it's not too confusing.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #30
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    so, what about the rest of Revelation? What about chap 11, 12, 13, the angel flying around pronouncing the gospel, Lucifer being chained and cast into the pit. Are you thinking the 1000 year reign already happened and we missed it? Lots 'o loose ends to be tied up in your rather bold assertion.
    for you are NOW Light; walk as Sons of Light Eph 5:8

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