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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    So, where is the 144,000 in history? And where is Rev 11-21 in history?

    Are you regarding the entire book of Revelation (as well as other prophetic books) as history books? What about Ezekiel's temple?
    Hi Screaming Eagle,

    Good question...

    The exact number of 144,000 (12,000 from each tribe) is symbolic, but the sealing of literal Jews was not. From Scripture we know that on the day of Pentecost devout Jews from every nation began to be sealed with the Holy Spirit. Those Jews at Pentecost were the first of the 144,000 to be sealed, they were the "Firstfruits" of the Church, redeemed from the remnant of Israel.
    .
    Rev. 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goes. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    .

    There is only one time in history that Jews could have been called "Firstfruits" and that was at Pentecost (only in the 1st century up to AD70 did the Jews know which tribes they were from), because that is when the literal first Church began. The Church began with the 12 Disciples and grew to include multiple thousands of Jews in the 1st century.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  2. #12
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    What about Rev 11? What about Rev 12, 13 and later chapters? What about the bowls? What about the trumpets?

    Where do you get the notion that prophetic scripture is to be fulfilled (usually partially) only one time? It is a LIVING word for all generations. There are also many Psalms (102 and 103 come to mind) that have not yet been fulfilled as well as much of Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah.

    Or is it just an interesting history book that's all been neatly wrapped up and finished?
    for you are NOW Light; walk as Sons of Light Eph 5:8

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    What about Rev 11? What about Rev 12, 13 and later chapters? What about the bowls? What about the trumpets?

    Where do you get the notion that prophetic scripture is to be fulfilled (usually partially) only one time? It is a LIVING word for all generations. There are also many Psalms (102 and 103 come to mind) that have not yet been fulfilled as well as much of Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah.

    Or is it just an interesting history book that's all been neatly wrapped up and finished?
    That's right! You've got it....

    It is indeed a very interesting His-story book....

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    So, where is the 144,000 in history? And where is Rev 11-21 in history?

    Are you regarding the entire book of Revelation (as well as other prophetic books) as history books? What about Ezekiel's temple?
    Hey there Paul,

    I agree with Rose - the 144,000 refers to the literal Jews that were sealed with the "Seal of God" which is the Holy Spirit, precisely as Scripture declares:
    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Thus, the "seal" of God is literally God Himself!

    As for the Book of Revelation: It is an expansion of the Olivet Discourse in which Christ predicted the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The "Great City" is explicitly identified as apostate Jerusalem using the figures of "Sodom and Egypt" in Rev 11, and "Mystery Babylon" in Rev 17-18.

    There are hundreds of verses that confirm this interpretation. For example, just before the Olivet Discourse, Christ declared:
    Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    This prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Mystery Babylon, the Great Harlot, aka Apostate Jerusalem:
    Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
    Note that the time statements also match. Christ told the Jews in Matt 23 that the judgment would come down on "this generation" (speaking to the first century Jews" and in Revelation Christ said that the events would happen "soon .. for the time is at hand."

    As you can see, all the pieces fit together. This is the divine harmony and confirmation of the Holy Bible.

    As for Ezekiel's Temple, that is obviously symbolic since we know that God is not going to reinstitute the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices. And there are many other indications too.


    All the very best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    Where do you get the notion that prophetic scripture is to be fulfilled (usually partially) only one time? It is a LIVING word for all generations. There are also many Psalms (102 and 103 come to mind) that have not yet been fulfilled as well as much of Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah.

    Or is it just an interesting history book that's all been neatly wrapped up and finished?
    I agree that the Bible is a LIVING BOOK written by the living God. But that does not mean that everything has a double meaning. Will all the prophecies that Christ fulfilled in his death, burial, and resurrection be repeated? Do you feel like that part of the Bible is "just an interesting history book" because it records events that have been fulfilled and will not be repeated?

    You need to realize that all Christians are Preterists with regards to the prophecies that we all agree were fulfilled. This does not destroy the meaning of the Bible.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Your statement has an ambiguity that could lead to confusion. Revelation is not merely a "book that was not sealed." That statement could be applied to every book of the NT because those books did not mention whether or not they were sealed.

    Revelation is different. It explicitly says "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand" (Rev 22:10 NKJV). It explains why this book was not sealed, just as Daniel explained why his book was sealed.

    Therefore, the proper way to describe the relation between these two books would be as follows:

    Scripture declares Daniel was sealed because it spoke of events in the distant future (relative to the time it was written).

    Scripture declares Revelation was not sealed because it spoke of events in the near future (relative to the time it was written)
    Does that means that the prophesies of Daniel are still on-going since it has been sealed till now? If not when was it opened as stated in the Bible?

    The main reason why Revelation was unsealed was because the events about the letters to the 7 churches and the 7 seals were about to happen or were already starting. The letters to the 7 churches which accounts of what the churches throughout the centuries which were started in the 1st century were going to face and that the start of the first seal was the start of Christianity spreading throughout the world. That is why in Revelation it started with the 1st letter to the church (Revelation 2) :
    "I am coming soon"
    and ends in Revelation 22 with :
    "I am coming soon.... Come Lord Jesus".

    The 1st to the 7th seals are on-going (especially 1st to the 2nd seals), the 3rd seal and the rest have yet to come.

    Many Blessings.
    Last edited by CWH; 02-17-2010 at 10:00 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    The 1st to the 7th seals are on-going (especially 1st to the 2nd seals), the 3rd seal and the rest have yet to come.
    Upon what Scriptures do you establish this assertion? Or did you just make it up?

    If "the 1st to the 7th seals are on-going" then that means the means that the 6th Seal is also "on-going" -
    Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [Has this been ongoing for 2000 years?] 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [Has this been ongoing for 2000 years?] 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [Has this been ongoing for 2000 years?] 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? [Has this been ongoing for 2000 years?]
    I am mystified by why you feel free to make up this stuff. Why don't you establish your beliefs upon what the Bible actually states?

    Many blessings,

    Richard

    PS: I wrote the answer above and then re-read your statement. Now I see that you must have made a mistake because you said that "1st to the 7th seals are on-going ... the 3rd seal and the rest have yet to come." That sentence doesn't make any sense, so I guess you wrote it too fast.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #18
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    What I mean is that the 1st seal, the white horserider, which represents the spread of Christianity since 1st century is still on-going to this day. The second seal, the red horserider, which represents communism is still on-going as there are still communist countries around even though communism has lost its fervor. The 3rd seal to the 7th seal are yet to come. The 3rd seal is on the way. That is my personal opinion. Am I entitled to my own personal belief?

    Many Blessings.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    What I mean is that the 1st seal, the white horserider, which represents the spread of Christianity since 1st century is still on-going to this day. The second seal, the red horserider, which represents communism is still on-going as there are still communist countries around even though communism has lost its fervor. The 3rd seal to the 7th seal are yet to come. The 3rd seal is on the way. That is my personal opinion. Am I entitled to my own personal belief?

    Many Blessings.
    Yes my friend, you are absolutely entitled to believe anything and everything you want to believe!

    You can believe 1 + 2 = 12 if you like, or that the moon is made of green cheese, or that Elvis is living on Mars.

    But if you want to have a discussion with serious students of Scripture, you probably don't want to just make up stuff. I would think you would want to work with others who believe in the Bible to help spread the Light of Truth it contains. And if that's what you want to do, then you probably won't want to just believe whatever comes into your mind. On the contrary, you will probably want to help declare what the Bible really teaches.

    To do that, we need to establish the foundation ....

    All the very best my friend,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #20
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    Richard, Part of what Joseph 'learned' in his time in prison was an essential principle worth considering. It's the principle of 'established' by God having occurred twice.

    Ge 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass. {established...: or, prepared of God} (KJV)

    Could this be that when Jesus said 'as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be'? If the events in the history of the Israelites are given as instruction (a pattern on earth) there are many things that must indeed be established.
    It's not that Christ has not done it all. In fact, it was all done before anything was ever created. It's that it must be established on earth by having occurred twice.
    for you are NOW Light; walk as Sons of Light Eph 5:8

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