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  1. #181
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    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Hi Richard I couldnt agree more with you, and what really put me off church groups was going there and listening to all their 'confirmed' interpretations where they go as far as to say it was revealed to them by Gods holy spirit..but no biblical proof and what they do have does not hold true to scriptural evaluation. So many interpretations out there, I just wonder which one came from God. We have religious organisations who believe they are the only true religions that God suddenly chose at the start of the 19th century and they happily use the catholics bible (whom they condemn) and its funny how they speak about Constantine being the source of pagan mixed with christianity , yet he was the one responsible for the very book they swear by..ok, he never wrote it but he took the liberty to decide what books to include and what to leave out.

    You know I get the feeling that it will all boil down to how each person lived their life. Salvation could not possibly depend on what religion one belongs to..in fact I would go further to say that religion (so called christian ) have condemned themselves by proclaiming falsehood as the mouth piece of God.
    Thanks for your reply,
    God bless!
    I think you hit the nail on the head. There is a great irony when Biblical fundamentalists rail against the very people who gave them their Bible. Such inconsistency is the sin qua non of Biblical fundamentalism which is itself fundamentally irrational because the Bible doesn't even define itself, and there are a variety of versions out there. And worse, the Bible no where states that it should be interpreted as the "inerrant and infallible Word of God." That's just a man-made doctrine. And what if they are wrong? They then will be attributing error to God, which would be quite blasphemous. Or to use your words, they have "condemned themselves by proclaiming falsehood as the mouth piece of God"

    And on top all that, there is no such thing as "Christianity" per se, but rather a broad range of "Christianities" that conflict in many fundamental ways. To think that there is a God who would judge according to who was able to discern the "true Gospel" in such a mass of confusion seems utterly absurd and unjust to me. Yet it is what most members of the various Christianities believes.

    As for how "each person lived their life" - If there is an afterlife where we retain our ego-consciousness, then yes, I think we would continue to work out our "karma" there as here. But I can't think of God saving some and damning others since that would be unjust. We are all born into situations entirely outside our control and we live a brief time. If God set up a situation where there would be eternal suffering, then he would have created an eternal evil and that's something I cannot believe.

    Great chatting!
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #182
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1

    Back to the original premise...

    Yes, postings tend to wander away from where they started, but I want to go back to Richard's original question. In Daniel 9:24-27, the 70 weeks telling of when Messiah would come, is a definitive statement by the angel Gabriel : "and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week, and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate", v. 27. Many Christians believe the temple will be rebuilt in the end days - not so. Josephus's detailed description of the siege & fall of Jerusalem reveals how all these things were fulfilled in the First Century. The Temple was defiled by all the dead bodies piled in it(= an abomination), so many so that Josephus said it was impossible to touch the ground with your feet when you walked. Sacrifice & oblation at the Temple ceased in the First Century & will never return because Gabriel said it would be desolate "even until the consummation". And then God would pour out his wrath on the desolate.

    I've been on a long journey as far as eschatology goes. I was first taught the standard evangelical viewpoint, but read & studied my Bible to keep checking facts & see if everything fit that I was taught. It didn't. The most enlightening book on the subject I've seen was Matthew 24 Fulfilled, author unk. at this point as I can't find it in my library. It really was eye-opening. All of us go through a process of learning in life, and if you're in your 60's like me, can look back over your life & cringe at some of the things you used to believe, whether it's theology, politics, or how to cook! And still we're all learning. Some of the theology I was taught has survived the gauntlet of time. I now see that, and pardon me for criticizing my own, that evangelicals have a maddening tendency to insist on speculation being fact, at least in relation to end times prophesy. Perhaps it's a human tendency, but we just have to get rid of it. What does the Bible really say - that's the important question we have to keep asking ourselves. As far as eschatology goes, it's conjecture & we're all better off recognizing that instead of passing it off as the truth. God has couched part of the Bible in prophetical language that's cryptic. Who said we have to force an understanding of these difficult passages when HE may not want us to understand? Why force it at all? When God wants people to completely understand it, we will.

    In the Gospel of John, 21:15-23, the risen Christ puts Peter on the spot, asking him 3 times if the apostle loves Him. Trying to deflect some of the guilt, Peter turns toward John & asks Jesus (paraphrased) "What about him?". "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? Follow me", replied Jesus. Then went that saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. Yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you?" Even at very the beginning of the church there were misapplications and misunderstandings of what Jesus said. We need to keep that in the forefront of our minds.

    Think along with me for a minute. What are the first things that come to our minds when the topic of the Book of Revelation comes up? Most of us think of the Beast, 666, and the end of time. We think of judgements, plagues, bowls of wrath, great evil, Satan being loosed and his demons, and the 7 trumpets sounding. We think of heavenly scenes and earthly destruction. And that totally misses the intended point of the last book of the Bible. We concentrate on who-does-what-when, when God is trying to get us to focus on the single most important moment of all time - the revelation of Jesus the Christ. That's the opening statement you know. The First Century Church began to go far astray - we see that readily from the 7 churches of Asia. Only 2 out of 7 were on track, not a particularly proud moment. The Holy Spirit says that whoever reads & hears this prophesy will be blessed, but how? By being captivated by the spectacular and fantastic scenes? No way! The prescription for a wandering church is to know 3 things: 1)God knows your works (kinda scary, isn't it?); 2) he who overcomes will... (the message is to work at overcoming in your church & personal life, not compromising); he who has an ear, let him hear (that's everybody, and it's a warning to pay close attention to what's being said). Chapters 4-22 are there to undergird the first 3, showing that God will do everything he said he'd do, judge every sin, as well as bless the faithful. Make no mistake, the Church is held to certain standards and if we don't meet them, we may have our lampstands snuffed out! So while eschatology can be intriguing to study, make sure you don't overlook the main point.

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Yakima, Wa
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgeary2 View Post
    Think along with me for a minute. What are the first things that come to our minds when the topic of the Book of Revelation comes up? Most of us think of the Beast, 666, and the end of time. We think of judgements, plagues, bowls of wrath, great evil, Satan being loosed and his demons, and the 7 trumpets sounding. We think of heavenly scenes and earthly destruction. And that totally misses the intended point of the last book of the Bible. We concentrate on who-does-what-when, when God is trying to get us to focus on the single most important moment of all time - the revelation of Jesus the Christ. That's the opening statement you know. The First Century Church began to go far astray - we see that readily from the 7 churches of Asia. Only 2 out of 7 were on track, not a particularly proud moment. The Holy Spirit says that whoever reads & hears this prophesy will be blessed, but how? By being captivated by the spectacular and fantastic scenes? No way! The prescription for a wandering church is to know 3 things: 1)God knows your works (kinda scary, isn't it?); 2) he who overcomes will... (the message is to work at overcoming in your church & personal life, not compromising); he who has an ear, let him hear (that's everybody, and it's a warning to pay close attention to what's being said). Chapters 4-22 are there to undergird the first 3, showing that God will do everything he said he'd do, judge every sin, as well as bless the faithful. Make no mistake, the Church is held to certain standards and if we don't meet them, we may have our lampstands snuffed out! So while eschatology can be intriguing to study, make sure you don't overlook the main point.
    That's a good point of view, though I wouldn't divorce it entirely from eschatology since it does fit pretty well with the destruction of 70 AD.

    Some Catholics see it as modeled on the Catholic Mass (source). As Jerome said, the Book of Revelation has as many mysteries as words.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #184
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,114
    Quote Originally Posted by cgeary2 View Post
    Yes, postings tend to wander away from where they started, but I want to go back to Richard's original question. In Daniel 9:24-27, the 70 weeks telling of when Messiah would come, is a definitive statement by the angel Gabriel : "and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week, and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate", v. 27. Many Christians believe the temple will be rebuilt in the end days - not so. Josephus's detailed description of the siege & fall of Jerusalem reveals how all these things were fulfilled in the First Century. The Temple was defiled by all the dead bodies piled in it(= an abomination), so many so that Josephus said it was impossible to touch the ground with your feet when you walked. Sacrifice & oblation at the Temple ceased in the First Century & will never return because Gabriel said it would be desolate "even until the consummation". And then God would pour out his wrath on the desolate.

    I've been on a long journey as far as eschatology goes. I was first taught the standard evangelical viewpoint, but read & studied my Bible to keep checking facts & see if everything fit that I was taught. It didn't. The most enlightening book on the subject I've seen was Matthew 24 Fulfilled, author unk. at this point as I can't find it in my library. It really was eye-opening. All of us go through a process of learning in life, and if you're in your 60's like me, can look back over your life & cringe at some of the things you used to believe, whether it's theology, politics, or how to cook! And still we're all learning. Some of the theology I was taught has survived the gauntlet of time. I now see that, and pardon me for criticizing my own, that evangelicals have a maddening tendency to insist on speculation being fact, at least in relation to end times prophesy. Perhaps it's a human tendency, but we just have to get rid of it. What does the Bible really say - that's the important question we have to keep asking ourselves. As far as eschatology goes, it's conjecture & we're all better off recognizing that instead of passing it off as the truth. God has couched part of the Bible in prophetical language that's cryptic. Who said we have to force an understanding of these difficult passages when HE may not want us to understand? Why force it at all? When God wants people to completely understand it, we will.

    In the Gospel of John, 21:15-23, the risen Christ puts Peter on the spot, asking him 3 times if the apostle loves Him. Trying to deflect some of the guilt, Peter turns toward John & asks Jesus (paraphrased) "What about him?". "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? Follow me", replied Jesus. Then went that saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. Yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you?" Even at very the beginning of the church there were misapplications and misunderstandings of what Jesus said. We need to keep that in the forefront of our minds.

    Think along with me for a minute. What are the first things that come to our minds when the topic of the Book of Revelation comes up? Most of us think of the Beast, 666, and the end of time. We think of judgements, plagues, bowls of wrath, great evil, Satan being loosed and his demons, and the 7 trumpets sounding. We think of heavenly scenes and earthly destruction. And that totally misses the intended point of the last book of the Bible. We concentrate on who-does-what-when, when God is trying to get us to focus on the single most important moment of all time - the revelation of Jesus the Christ. That's the opening statement you know. The First Century Church began to go far astray - we see that readily from the 7 churches of Asia. Only 2 out of 7 were on track, not a particularly proud moment. The Holy Spirit says that whoever reads & hears this prophesy will be blessed, but how? By being captivated by the spectacular and fantastic scenes? No way! The prescription for a wandering church is to know 3 things: 1)God knows your works (kinda scary, isn't it?); 2) he who overcomes will... (the message is to work at overcoming in your church & personal life, not compromising); he who has an ear, let him hear (that's everybody, and it's a warning to pay close attention to what's being said). Chapters 4-22 are there to undergird the first 3, showing that God will do everything he said he'd do, judge every sin, as well as bless the faithful. Make no mistake, the Church is held to certain standards and if we don't meet them, we may have our lampstands snuffed out! So while eschatology can be intriguing to study, make sure you don't overlook the main point.
    The Book is written by John Bray http://www.eschatology.org/images/st...67d4f498b3.jpg . It can be bought in the book section of this web site
    http://www.eschatology.org/
    This would be another good book to get. http://www.eschatology.org/images/st...8a8e8af86f.jpg
    Last edited by Brother Les; 05-28-2013 at 01:39 PM.
    Brother Les

  5. #185
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    5

    BIBLICAL PROOF THAT REVELATION WAS FULFILLED IN THE FIRST CENTURY

    HI RICHARD,

    I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU THAT ALL THE PROPHECIES PERTAINING TO THE BOOK OF DANIEL AND THE BOOK OF REVELATION WERE FULFILLED.

    MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS THAT:

    1. IT IS NOT IN CHAPTER ORDER NOR SEQUENCE ORDER.

    2. IT REVEALS SPIRITUAL EVENTS THAT TOOK PLACE FROM EDEN TO THE DAY OF PENTECOST

    3. IT WAS REVEALED TO THE APOSTLE JOHN IN A VISION ON THE LORDS DAY, WHICH WAS NOT SUNDAY, BUT FRIDAY, THE DAY THAT JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED AND SPIRITUALLY RESURRECTED THE SAME DAY;50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matt 27:50-53

    4. IN THE VISION, THE APOSTLE JOHN WAS IN AN ISLE CALLED PATMOS. AN ISLE ALSO MEANS 'SHIP'.

    FROM BASE G 3491

    from nao or neo (to float); a boat (of any size) :- ship.—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

    JOHN, THE SON OF ZEBEDEE WAS IN A SHIP CALLED PATMOS ON THE LORDS DAY AFTER THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS AT THE SEA OF TIBERIAS, WHICH IS THE VISION DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK OF JOHN THAT; 1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself. 2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples. 3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing. 4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. 5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No. 6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes. 7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea. 8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes. 9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread. 10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught. 11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken. 12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord. 13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. 14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead. John 21:1-14



    THIS APPEARANCE OF JESUS TO THE DISCIPLES IN A VISION IS IN LINE WITH THE PROPHECY OF DANIEL THAT; 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, Dan 9:27

    THE PROPHECIES OF DANIEL CONCERNS THE MINISTRY OF JESUS UPTO THE CROSS, THE RESURRECTION AND POST APPEARANCES OF JESUS AND ALSO UPTO THE DAY OF PENTECOST.

    DANIEL WAS TOLD THAT THE WORDS ARE CLOSED UP AND SEALED TILL THE TIME OF THE END;8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Dan 12:7-9

    THE BOOK OF HEBREWS REFERRS TO THE TIME JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED AS THE END OF THE WORLD; but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:26-27

    APOSTLE PAUL CONFIRMS IN THE BOOK OF ACTS THAT THE ENDS OF THE WORLD HAD COME UPON THEM, IN THAT GENERATION; 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 1 Cor 10:10-11

    APOSTLE JOHN WAS TOLD NOT TO SEAL THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY OF REVELATION FOR TIME IS AT HAND;10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. Rev 22:9-10



    THANKS

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