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  1. #1
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    Sailing on the Gospel ship

    Let me first say that I am grateful for all who regularly post here. We have some lively discussions which occassionally arouse strong feelings.....but,...this is good, as long as we maintain a healthy respect for other opinions. Of late, we have been blessed by some new views from new members. That's a very good indication that God is on the move, and we are riding a new wave, or, shall be say,........the wind is billowing the sails so that we can move into deeper waters.

    Richard suggested that I open a new thread when I objected to the "...isms" that prevail within the Church......and that I present an alternate view which I assert pertains to the "gospel".........the good news, or well-message.

    So, I will try to state as clearly as possible what I offer to you to discuss;
    Paul's ministry is to what he termed "the uncircumcision". Peter's ministry is what Paul termed "the circumcision".

    What, if any, is the difference?

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Let me first say that I am grateful for all who regularly post here. We have some lively discussions which occassionally arouse strong feelings.....but,...this is good, as long as we maintain a healthy respect for other opinions. Of late, we have been blessed by some new views from new members. That's a very good indication that God is on the move, and we are riding a new wave, or, shall be say,........the wind is billowing the sails so that we can move into deeper waters.

    Richard suggested that I open a new thread when I objected to the "...isms" that prevail within the Church......and that I present an alternate view which I assert pertains to the "gospel".........the good news, or well-message.
    Sailing into deeper waters! That's what I like! I expect we will have an excellent catch of deeper truths. We have a good command from the Lord (adapted for the present discourse):

    Luke 5:4 When He had stopped speaking, He said to Simon, "Launch out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch."

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    So, I will try to state as clearly as possible what I offer to you to discuss;
    Paul's ministry is to what he termed "the uncircumcision". Peter's ministry is what Paul termed "the circumcision".

    What, if any, is the difference?

    Joel
    From my perspective, I see this as talking about the general emphasis of their two ministries. Paul in general ministered the Gospel to the Gentiles, and Peter in general ministered the same Gospel to the Jews. I find it difficult to see any cut and dry distinction between their ministries because Paul regularly preached to Jews and Peter was the first to preach to Gentiles.

    I look forward to an excellent time of fellowship and study.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #3
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    It is not my belief that Peter and Paul preached different messages.......but.....Paul added clarifications, and he emphacised certain facets that are not found in any other writings.

    The Gentiles were treated to this expansive message whereas the apostles of Christ's ministry were not.......at that time.

    For example; Paul used the word "mystery" twice as much as is found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Revelation, the only other sections where the word is used.

    A mystery remains hidden until it is revealed. So, God, through Paul, whose ministry was to the "uncircumcision", revealed some things that were virtually unknown, and could not be known until God revealed them to Paul. None of other writers even spoke of them.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    It is not my belief that Peter and Paul preached different messages.......but.....Paul added clarifications, and he emphacised certain facets that are not found in any other writings.
    We agree perfectly here. But I would say that Peter added his own "clarifications" too. They are less only because of volume.

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    The Gentiles were treated to this expansive message whereas the apostles of Christ's ministry were not.......at that time.
    Are you suggesting that the believing Jews were not treated with the same message when they read Paul's letters? We know Paul was writing to both Jews and Gentiles, and Peter read his letters too.

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    For example; Paul used the word "mystery" twice as much as is found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Revelation, the only other sections where the word is used.

    A mystery remains hidden until it is revealed. So, God, through Paul, whose ministry was to the "uncircumcision", revealed some things that were virtually unknown, and could not be known until God revealed them to Paul. None of other writers even spoke of them.

    Joel
    I don't see the connection between Paul's audience and the message of his letters. Did not the "mystery" apply equally to Jew and Gentile? Was it not received by all Christians, whether Jew or Gentile, who accepted all the writings of the NT?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #5
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    Richard,

    The point that I was trying to make was; the mystery that was presented to the disciples from Christ was the mystery of the kingdom. They were especially privy to His disclosures to them as in contradistinction to the whole of Israel who were blinded by God.

    The mysteries as presented by Paul to the Gentiles were not presented to the disciples of Christ that were called by Him.

    It was only after Paul was called, and brought into Christ's body when he was on the way to Demascus, that Paul was given specific truth concerning Christ's sacrificial death.

    It appears that the apostles of His original calling, the twelve which included Peter, were not privy to what was revealed to Paul.

    The "mystery" applied directly to both Jew and Gentile. Yet, it appears, that first the Gentiles would hear it, and rejoice in God.......and,.....then, the Jews would hear when their blindness was removed.

    At present, whether Jew or Greek, all who hear are saved when they believe.

    But....can it also mean that in the time to come as the Jew is relieved of his blindness, there will be a time when they (Israel) will yet see the truth that was once presented to them....and....they will see and believe....and.....they will present the gospel to the nations who do not come to Christ in this present era...the gospel that is presented by Peter as their apostle?

    In that era, God will bring the Jewish people to Himself as a fulfillment of the confirmation obtained by Jesus as the minister 0f the circumcision Who confirmed the promises of the fathers. The salvation which will brought to all of mankind will be enjoyed by His people, Israel.
    Last edited by joel; 02-13-2010 at 07:06 PM. Reason: words not spelled correctly
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  6. #6
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    Hi Joel,
    Always good to hear your thoughts. As you can imagine, I'm afraid I don't share your belief that there remains a distinction between people based on their ethnic/genetic makeup - specifically "Jews" and "Gentiles" - under the New Covenant.

    As Jer 31:31 says, the new covenant was made WITH "the house of Israel and the house of Judah", and of course Gentiles were welcomed into that covenant as well. The only criteria for either group to be included was faith that Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah and that He rose from the dead. This is what the Olive tree illustration of Rom 11 teaches as well as all writings from Peter and Paul.

    Joel said: But....can it also mean that in the time to come as the Jew is relieved of his blindness, there will be a time when they (Israel) will yet see the truth that was once presented to them....and....they will see and believe....and.....they will present the gospel to the nations who do not come to Christ in this present era...the gospel that is presented by Peter as their apostle?
    Paul defined "Israel" as believers in Christ (the Seed):

    Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they [are] not all Israel who [are] of Israel, 7 nor [are they] all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who [are] the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
    But you seem to include "blind" Jews as "Israel". Could you define what you mean by "they (Israel)"? Are they those in the state of Israel geographically? What about those in Brooklyn? Are "they" those whose mother is "Jewish"? Does the group you have in mind here include "Jews" who have physically died?

    Joel said:
    In that era, God will bring the Jewish people to Himself as a fulfillment of the confirmation obtained by Jesus as the minister 0f the circumcision Who confirmed the promises of the fathers. The salvation which will brought to all of mankind will be enjoyed by His people, Israel.
    Peter does not call Christ rejecting Jews "His people, Israel". Why would you? He calls believers in Christ "His own special people" and "a holy nation".

    1 Pet 2:4 Coming to Him [as to] a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God [and] precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame." 7 Therefore, to you who believe, [He is] precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 9 But you [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once [were] not a people but [are] now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

    1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free -- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

    With all the NT Scripture teaching that bloodline is meaningless in God's eyes, I can't see how there remains any distinction for any reason in your mind Joel. I respectfully must disagree with you, my brother.

    Peace to you,
    Dave
    Last edited by basilfo; 02-14-2010 at 04:38 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    Peter does not call Christ rejecting Jews "His people, Israel". Why would you? He calls believers in Christ "His own special people" and "a holy nation".
    Dave, my brother,

    I never said that the "rejecting Jews" were His people.

    They, the "rejecting Jews", are currently called Lo Ammi, not my people.

    Currently, both Jews and Gentiles, are in Christ, and there is no distinction during this present era.

    You believe that the lack of distinction is permanent. I do not believe that is what the scripture says.............

    In that I believe that the scripture teaches that all will be saved, irrespective of what the creeds may say, and that the process of saving all begins with us........then, all Isreal is saved (those to whom Peter was directly speaking).......and then.......all will eventually see the Lordship of Christ after He has put all enemies under His feet.

    I do not believe that the believers of today are "Israel", or "Jews". Paul did not say that. He was saying that even if a person may be Jewish, that person is not of Israel unless that Jewish person is circumcised of the heart.

    If you are circumcised of the heart, and are ethnically a Gentile, you do not become a Jew. That simply defies logic. You are a new creation, not, a Jew, or Jewish.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    If you are circumcised of the heart, and are ethnically a Gentile, you do not become a Jew. That simply defies logic. You are a new creation, not, a Jew, or Jewish.

    Joel
    Hey there Joel,

    This is something I have never understood. The title "The Circumcision" is used in Scripture as a synonym of "Jewish." How then should I understand this verse?

    Philippians 3:3 For we [Christians] are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

    Thanks!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there Joel,

    This is something I have never understood. The title "The Circumcision" is used in Scripture as a synonym of "Jewish." How then should I understand this verse?

    Philippians 3:3 For we [Christians] are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

    Thanks!

    Richard
    Richard, that is a very insightful question......and one that we should earnestly seek to understand.

    We know that "circumcision" primarily means the cutting away of the flesh as a ratification of the covenant of God between Himself and Abraham whereas Abraham, and his descendants, were to observe the same external cutting away of the flesh.

    We, who have been brought to God in this era, also know that outward circumcision does not apply to us.....and is not a requirement levied upon us as it was levied upon Abraham's progeny.

    A conflict arises when we (believers during this present era) see ourselves as descendants of Abraham, and yet,......we certainly do not require ourselves to be physically circumcised.

    So true circumcision is inward,.....and not outward.

    As we are caused to believe the truth in Christ, only with God's help and by His instrumentality, we know that we are "cut out" of the old humanity.....and.....placed into the new humanity. This is the grandest of truths. We are "in Christ" by an operation of God.

    Somehow, God has operated upon our hearts. The flesh, the outward man, has been cut away. And, we have become included in the "new".

    We now "in spirit" are offering "divine service"....and....we are boasting in Jesus, the annointed one.

    And,.......we are no longer having confidence in the flesh whatsoever. This is the hall-mark of our "circumcision".

    Notice that Paul contrasts the circumcision with the "concision" (Phil. 3:2) which is an actual cutting of flesh, a mutilation.

    We do not submit to the outward cutting.......as we have been placed under the teaching of the inward cutting.....the circumcision....the ones cut out of the old humanity by the Spirit of God, and placed into Christ.

    Joel, the anti-ism, circumcised by the operation of God
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Richard, that is a very insightful question......and one that we should earnestly seek to understand.

    We know that "circumcision" primarily means the cutting away of the flesh as a ratification of the covenant of God between Himself and Abraham whereas Abraham, and his descendants, were to observe the same external cutting away of the flesh.

    We, who have been brought to God in this era, also know that outward circumcision does not apply to us.....and is not a requirement levied upon us as it was levied upon Abraham's progeny.

    A conflict arises when we (believers during this present era) see ourselves as descendants of Abraham, and yet,......we certainly do not require ourselves to be physically circumcised.

    So true circumcision is inward,.....and not outward.

    As we are caused to believe the truth in Christ, only with God's help and by His instrumentality, we know that we are "cut out" of the old humanity.....and.....placed into the new humanity. This is the grandest of truths. We are "in Christ" by an operation of God.

    Somehow, God has operated upon our hearts. The flesh, the outward man, has been cut away. And, we have become included in the "new".

    We now "in spirit" are offering "divine service"....and....we are boasting in Jesus, the annointed one.

    And,.......we are no longer having confidence in the flesh whatsoever. This is the hall-mark of our "circumcision".

    Notice that Paul contrasts the circumcision with the "concision" (Phil. 3:2) which is an actual cutting of flesh, a mutilation.

    We do not submit to the outward cutting.......as we have been placed under the teaching of the inward cutting.....the circumcision....the ones cut out of the old humanity by the Spirit of God, and placed into Christ.

    Joel, the anti-ism, circumcised by the operation of God
    Hi Joel,

    That makes a lot of sense - I particularly found the distinction between katatome (concision) and paritome (circumcision) interesting.

    But I'm still struggling to understand why Paul would use the technical term "The Circumcision" for Christians since it seems he was contrasting Christians with "Jews of the flesh." In effect, it seems like he was saying that Christians are "True Jews" in contrast with "Jews of the flesh."

    Am I getting close, or am I still missing something?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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