Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 96
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    London UK
    Posts
    677

    Is the Bible the Word of God?

    "The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers.

    It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God."
    I would agree with the above quote. Richard has shown that the Bible has discernible unifying patterns throughout - as is witnessed by the BibleWheel pattern - this indicates a certain level of inspiration. He has also shown that the Bible contains errors - which indicates human input. It therefore seems conclusive that the Bible is the product of both human and divine input.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    I would agree with the above quote. Richard has shown that the Bible has discernible unifying patterns throughout - as is witnessed by the BibleWheel pattern - this indicates a certain level of inspiration. He has also shown that the Bible contains errors - which indicates human input. It therefore seems conclusive that the Bible is the product of both human and divine input.
    Hello Craig,

    This could prove to be a very interesting thread that you've started.

    It seems you are willing to acknowledge that the Bible contains errors, thus concluding that god allowed a work attributed to his inspiration to be faulty. How can this be? There is just no way the universe in all its majesty could ever be the work of a vengeful, immoral, war mongering god like the one portrayed in the Bible.

    If you were god, would you want your name associated with a book that claimed to be inspired by you and described you as a genocidal, unjust, gender biased monster? Not to mention being filled with erroneous facts and bad reasoning ... I would think not!

    Works can be inspired and contain unifying patterns without the need of a god. Just because we don't know how certain patterns like the BibleWheel came to be, does not mean we must posit a god. There are still many mysteries left to be solved and the BibleWheel is just one of them. It is one thing to feel the need for a creator god to explain what we see in the world around us, and quite another to use a god such as is described in the Bible to fill that need.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    278
    Craig, I've been arguing this same point with double R (Richard and Rose) from day one. Even if one were to grant the supposed "immorality" in the bible, that does absolutely nothing to change the fact that the bible is armed to the teeth with evidence TO BACK UP ITS OWN CLAIM that it was divinely inspired. And the idea that "there is no biblical canon" (which is Richard's claim) is absurd. The bible wheel ITSELF validates the 66 book canon (in addition to providing clear evidence that this canon is divinely inspired). So of course there is a valid biblical canon. The 66 chapters of Isaiah correlating with the 66 book canon is additional evidence as well. I liked your book on that subject btw.

    BINI (The Big Meanie).

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    278
    "It seems you are willing to acknowledge that the Bible contains errors, thus concluding that god allowed a work attributed to his inspiration to be faulty. How can this be?"

    Rose, it is PERFECTLY consistent for the biblical God to allow his word to be freely interfered with. Hell, the bible OPENS with his word being freely interfered with (remember the garden of eden?). In fact, the bible freely admits that God's creation is in a fallen state. Hence, God's ENTIRE CREATION has been interfered with. In fact, THE HUMAN GENOME itself is the word of God and yet God allows every human genome (HIS WORD) to be interfered with (gradually suffering decay). So of course God allows ppl to freely interfere with his word. Therefore, it is definitely a possibility that the biblical passages you feel are morally wrong are simply examples of fallible men freely interfering with the original autographs.

    "If you were god, would you want your name associated with a book that claimed to be inspired by you and described you as a genocidal, unjust, gender biased monster?"

    That's the point. He DIDN'T do that. The argument is that even if we granted the problems you raise about the biblical text, they could EASILY be explained as being freely tampered by fallible men AFTER they were originally inspired. So God wouldn't be "associating" himself with the tampering in that case (since the tampering would be a corrupting of his originally infallible text AFTER the fact).

    "Just because we don't know how certain patterns like the BibleWheel came to be, does not mean we must posit a god"

    Of course we do because THE ENTIRE BIBLE POSITS A GOD! The entire bible posits an entire line of prophets who were divinely inspired by God. The idea that you can have supernatural evidence for the bible and then claim at the same time it can't be evidence for the God proclaimed THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BOOK is just ludicrous. I'm sorry but I just don't see how you could even make that argument.

    Take care

    BINI The Mystic/Meanie

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    131

    Genes

    If you want to understand the Bible better, we have to look at genetics.
    The Bible starts off with the book Genesis. What is the seed of the woman?
    What is the best explanation of the genetic manipulation occurring in Genesis 6?
    What we are dealing with is information. The corruption of information is described in the second law of thermal dynamics (times arrow pointing down).
    Time is somehow involved. This includes cause and effect, free will vs predestination, ect...
    Has anyone here spent the time to really try to understand what the Bible says about genes.


    As long as unity or oneness exist then nothing needs to be proved, but as soon as division occurs, then it may be that something needs to be proven.
    God knows the end from the beginning and so he would not be proving anything to himself, it must be toward his creation that the proof is aimed.
    There is a minimal level of dignity that should be afforded to all.
    No-one is above anyone else.
    No-one cares what you know unless they know that you care.
    Winning an argument and losing a friend is not (in my humble opinion) winning.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,564
    Quote Originally Posted by rdelmonico View Post
    If you want to understand the Bible better, we have to look at genetics.
    The Bible starts off with the book Genesis. What is the seed of the woman?
    What is the best explanation of the genetic manipulation occurring in Genesis 6?
    What we are dealing with is information. The corruption of information is described in the second law of thermal dynamics (times arrow pointing down).
    Time is somehow involved. This includes cause and effect, free will vs predestination, ect...
    Has anyone here spent the time to really try to understand what the Bible says about genes.


    As long as unity or oneness exist then nothing needs to be proved, but as soon as division occurs, then it may be that something needs to be proven.
    God knows the end from the beginning and so he would not be proving anything to himself, it must be toward his creation that the proof is aimed.
    Genetics, genes and Genesis come from the same root to do with the beginning of life. Scientists are a long way off explaining the origin of the first gene essential for the simplest of cells.

    Jesus had a Genesis, he was begat. Jesus could not have been with God at the beginning before man was created.


    If you are referring to Genesis 6 as God's Angels interfering with the human gene pool, then you have taken the wrong understanding of the phrase "Sons of God" which can be human and in the context of Genesis 6 are human. Geneis 6 referring to God's Angels is a cunningly devised fable and you know we have guard against such.


    I suggest errors in the Bible are man-made. It is the fault of man not to preserve the word of God as it was originally written down. A good attempt was made at the beginning to copy and preserve the writings, but eventually corrupt men have introduced corruption, whether intentional or not. Now we are in a position to correct many of the errors; but we have lost the original documents.

    The errors that have been introduced is by God allowing man to rule himself and allowing man to have the free choice given to Adam and Eve at the beginning. When Adam was perfect he had complete jurisdiction over everything God had made. Once Adam had sinned, the jurisdiction was (quote)"put into the hands of ha Satan". Ha Satan is the god of this world. Ha Satan is not a supernatural being. Ha Satan represents that which is in the mind of sinful man, and is manifested by sinful man in the the things he does. Just as Adam and Eve made their first mistake, so man has continued to make mistakes. God will eventually correct everything, when his Kingdom is established. Until then, God is leaving us (man) to live with our mistakes. We should not expect God to correct every mistake man makes at the time the mistake is made. God's plan allows for the mistakes of man and they will not divert God's plan. It is sufficient for God to select the faithful men and women from all generations that will occupy God's Kingdom in the new age to come, in which everything will made new and will be perfect.


    David
    Last edited by David M; 01-16-2014 at 07:59 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Gambini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    "It seems you are willing to acknowledge that the Bible contains errors, thus concluding that god allowed a work attributed to his inspiration to be faulty. How can this be?"
    Rose, it is PERFECTLY consistent for the biblical God to allow his word to be freely interfered with. Hell, the bible OPENS with his word being freely interfered with (remember the garden of eden?). In fact, the bible freely admits that God's creation is in a fallen state. Hence, God's ENTIRE CREATION has been interfered with. In fact, THE HUMAN GENOME itself is the word of God and yet God allows every human genome (HIS WORD) to be interfered with (gradually suffering decay). So of course God allows ppl to freely interfere with his word. Therefore, it is definitely a possibility that the biblical passages you feel are morally wrong are simply examples of fallible men freely interfering with the original autographs.
    Hello Gambini,

    If it is perfectly consistent for the Biblegod to allow interference in what is commonly held to be his word, how is one to know the difference between the god inspired part, the interfered part, or the totally man-made part? To me it just sounds like an excuse to justify all the garbage that the Bible contains.

    How do you know creation has been interfered with? How do you know that creation isn't exactly the way your Biblegod intended it to be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gambini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    "If you were god, would you want your name associated with a book that claimed to be inspired by you and described you as a genocidal, unjust, gender biased monster?"
    That's the point. He DIDN'T do that. The argument is that even if we granted the problems you raise about the biblical text, they could EASILY be explained as being freely tampered by fallible men AFTER they were originally inspired. So God wouldn't be "associating" himself with the tampering in that case (since the tampering would be a corrupting of his originally infallible text AFTER the fact).
    Since you have no idea what the original texts said, there is no way to determine how the original texts were changed. If your god were real and he inspired the original texts, but those texts were changed by men tampering with them, then there is no way to ever know what god inspired in the first place. It's all just a crap shoot!


    Quote Originally Posted by Gambini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    "Just because we don't know how certain patterns like the BibleWheel came to be, does not mean we must posit a god"
    Of course we do because THE ENTIRE BIBLE POSITS A GOD! The entire bible posits an entire line of prophets who were divinely inspired by God. The idea that you can have supernatural evidence for the bible and then claim at the same time it can't be evidence for the God proclaimed THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BOOK is just ludicrous. I'm sorry but I just don't see how you could even make that argument.

    Take care

    BINI The Mystic/Meanie
    Who is to say that the BibleWheel pattern is supernatural? Just because we don't understand how it came to be does not mean it is supernatural. Of course the Bible posits god, that is what the whole Bible is about ... primitive men, who knew next to nothing about the workings of the universe, positing their ideas about a mythical god, who they thought created everything.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post

    I suggest errors in the Bible are man-made. It is the fault of man not to preserve the word of God as it was originally written down. A good attempt was made at the beginning to copy and preserve the writings, but eventually corrupt men have introduced corruption, whether intentional or not. Now we are in a position to correct many of the errors; but we have lost the original documents.

    The errors that have been introduced is by God allowing man to rule himself and allowing man to have the free choice given to Adam and Eve at the beginning.
    When Adam was perfect he had complete jurisdiction over everything God had made. Once Adam had sinned, the jurisdiction was (quote)"put into the hands of ha Satan". Ha Satan is the god of this world. Ha Satan is not a supernatural being. Ha Satan represents that which is in the mind of sinful man, and is manifested by sinful man in the the things he does. Just as Adam and Eve made their first mistake, so man has continued to make mistakes. God will eventually correct everything, when his Kingdom is established. Until then, God is leaving us (man) to live with our mistakes. We should not expect God to correct every mistake man makes at the time the mistake is made. God's plan allows for the mistakes of man and they will not divert God's plan. It is sufficient for God to select the faithful men and women from all generations that will occupy God's Kingdom in the new age to come, in which everything will made new and will be perfect.


    David
    Hello David,

    How could you possible think a deity capable of creating the universe and everything in it, would leave to humans the responsibility of writing and preserving a written document of his words in its original form? Why would a creator even use the fallible method of writing to convey his laws, when they could have been formed in the heart of man like an instinct. Just think, would you ever use one of your immature children to write down and deliver an important message that you wanted given to your other children. I think not.

    You say that the errors in the Bible are caused by god allowing man to rule himself and have free choice. Well, if that were really the case then the total blame lies with god, because he knew from the beginning exactly what was going to happen and he could have prevented it.


    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    278
    Greetings Rosetta

    "If it is perfectly consistent for the Biblegod to allow interference in what is commonly held to be his word, how is one to know the difference between the god inspired part, the interfered part, or the totally man-made part?"

    That's a good question. My response is as follows ... ANYTHING in the bible that can be shown to be "illogical" or "immoral" would obviously be a product of fallible men and ANYTHING in the bible that can be shown to be supernatural in origin would be a product of divine inspiration. We already know that EVERY BOOK IN THE BIBLE (all 66 books) is divinely inspired because the large scale structure of the bible (the "bible wheel") runs through all 66 books (the 66 chapters of Isaiah corresponding with the 66 book canon also validates the 66 book canon). We also know that Genesis 1:1-5 AND John 1:1-5 is divinely inspired per the "creation holograph". Hence, we already know ...

    1) God exists (since both Genesis 1:1-5 and John 1:1-5 affirm that God exists).
    2) God created the universe (confirmed by both Genesis 1:1-5 and John 1:1-5).
    3) Jesus is God (per John 1:1-5).
    4) Every book in the bible was originally inspired in its totality (meaning the autographs).

    Each of these four points LOGICALLY FOLLOW from the evidence in the "creation holograph", the "bible wheel" and the 66 chapters of Isaiah corresponding with the 66 books of the bible (not to mention the genetic evidence, the patterns in the breastplate of the high priest and the "star of Israel" pattern all linking back to Genesis 1:1).

    "How do you know creation has been interfered with? How do you know that creation isn't exactly the way your Biblegod intended it to be?"

    THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS PREMISED ON THE IDEA OF A FALLEN CREATION. And even in the absence of the NT, you (and Richard as well) GRANT that we can deduce what is objectively moral from that which is objectively immoral. Surely you would agree that it would be immoral for God to INTENTIONALLY create man in a state where he slowly rots and decays, right? We already saw that God exists and that Jesus is God (from the four points I outlined). So I can use my rational mind and deduce that God, who walked among man and was humble enough to allow his own creation to rebel and MURDER his human vessel, would not INTENTIONALLY create a fallen and suffering world. The very fact that we OBSERVE a fallen and suffering world DEMONSTRATES that creation has been interfered with (which again, is the entire premise of the whole NT).

    "Who is to say that the BibleWheel pattern is supernatural? Just because we don't understand how it came to be does not mean it is supernatural"

    This is a No God of the gaps fallacy. You're basically arguing that NOTHING can ever be evidence for God (or the supernatural). The bible wheel is CLEAR evidence of a supernatural hand. You can't just cover your eyes and WISH that maybe one day there will be some unknown naturalistic explanation. This reminds me of when atheists argue that they would believe in God if he visually appeared to them or if he audibly spoke to them. The fact of the matter is that if someone is UNWILLING to believe something, then they will reject it REGARDLESS of evidence ...

    Even if God appeared to atheists, they would begin doubting their experience after about two weeks. That's the NATURE of the man who is skeptical of God. After about two months, the entire encounter would be explained away as a temporary delusion ...

    And it's not just atheists ... There are actually MORE ppl who reject the reality of the external world than there are who reject the reality of a God. For example, a BILLION Hindus (and even some philosophers and physicists) reject the existence of the external world. Think about that. They WILLFULLY reject what is staring them in the face!

    SHALOMness for you and yours

    BINI
    Last edited by Gambini; 01-16-2014 at 06:36 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by Gambini View Post
    Greetings Rosetta
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    If it is perfectly consistent for the Biblegod to allow interference in what is commonly held to be his word, how is one to know the difference between the god inspired part, the interfered part, or the totally man-made part?
    That's a good question. My response is as follows ... ANYTHING in the bible that can be shown to be "illogical" or "immoral" would obviously be a product of fallible men and ANYTHING in the bible that can be shown to be supernatural in origin would be a product of divine inspiration. We already know that EVERY BOOK IN THE BIBLE (all 66 books) is divinely inspired because the large scale structure of the bible (the "bible wheel") runs through all 66 books (the 66 chapters of Isaiah corresponding with the 66 book canon also validates the 66 book canon). We also know that Genesis 1:1-5 AND John 1:1-5 is divinely inspired per the "creation holograph". Hence, we already know ...

    1) God exists (since both Genesis 1:1-5 and John 1:1-5 affirm that God exists).
    2) God created the universe (confirmed by both Genesis 1:1-5 and John 1:1-5).
    3) Jesus is God (per John 1:1-5).
    4) Every book in the bible was originally inspired in its totality (meaning the autographs).

    Each of these four points LOGICALLY FOLLOW from the evidence in the "creation holograph", the "bible wheel" and the 66 chapters of Isaiah corresponding with the 66 books of the bible (not to mention the genetic evidence, the patterns in the breastplate of the high priest and the "star of Israel" pattern all linking back to Genesis 1:1).
    Hey there Mr. Gambini, Sir!

    As usual, your logic is sloppy and filled with errors. The holographs are found in a very limited number of verses, only a few dozen or so. Therefore, they give no support to your assertion that the "Every book in the bible was originally inspired in its totality." Strike one.

    Likewise, neither the Bible Wheel nor the Isaiah-Bible Correlation are nearly as "perfect" as would be expected if they were designed by an omniscient being. That's strike two.

    Third, the fact that Genesis 1:1-5 and John 1:1-5 (the source of the Creation Holograph) "affirm that God exists" does not mean that your particular kind of God, or any God for that matter, actually exists. There could be some another explanation.

    Fourth: Genesis is based on erroneous Ancient Near East cosmological mythology commonly believed by ignorant people 3000 years ago. It is demonstrably false. This proves your second point cannot be true.

    Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the evidence you cited is entirely without merit. On the contrary, it is true that the Bible Wheel, Holographs, and Isaiah Bible Correlation are good evidence for "something" going on in the Bible that needs to be explained. But it is also true that the Bible is filled with things that are irrational and immoral and false and which cannot be attributed to men as if they were not part of the autographs. This is what makes the Bible such an intriguing mystery. It has signs of "something supernatural" going on coupled with strong evidence that the God it describes cannot be true.

    Quite a mystery, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gambini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    How do you know creation has been interfered with? How do you know that creation isn't exactly the way your Biblegod intended it to be?
    THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS PREMISED ON THE IDEA OF A FALLEN CREATION. And even in the absence of the NT, you (and Richard as well) GRANT that we can deduce what is objectively moral from that which is objectively immoral. Surely you would agree that it would be immoral for God to INTENTIONALLY create man in a state where he slowly rots and decays, right? We already saw that God exists and that Jesus is God (from the four points I outlined). So I can use my rational mind and deduce that God, who walked among man and was humble enough to allow his own creation to rebel and MURDER his human vessel, would not INTENTIONALLY create a fallen and suffering world. The very fact that we OBSERVE a fallen and suffering world DEMONSTRATES that creation has been interfered with (which again, is the entire premise of the whole NT).
    Yes, the mythological chapters of Genesis play a prominent role in the NT whereas they play almost no role in the OT. This suggests they were made up (or accepted) long after most of the OT was written. They appear only in the late literature written after the close of the OT canon, in the Apocrypha and the NT. I talk about this in my article Where's Adam? The Mystery of the Missing Mythological Chapters of Genesis. Is it not strange the the story of the origin of all life, man's fall into sin, the flood, the tower of babel, are almost entirely missing from the entire OT? Didn't any of the OT "prophets" know anything about that stuff? And why then does it appear so prominently in the NT, along with all sorts of Greek mythology about fallen angels and multi-headed dragons?

    Your "proof" that the evil in the world must have come from some source other than God denies that God is the source of all. If God is omniscient and he intentionally created the world in such a way that it would certainly exist in its present state, then we must conclude he desired it to be in its present state. This is an old, old problem that Christians have been wrestling with since the beginning. Superficial answers don't help anyone understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gambini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    Who is to say that the BibleWheel pattern is supernatural? Just because we don't understand how it came to be does not mean it is supernatural
    This is a No God of the gaps fallacy. You're basically arguing that NOTHING can ever be evidence for God (or the supernatural). The bible wheel is CLEAR evidence of a supernatural hand. You can't just cover your eyes and WISH that maybe one day there will be some unknown naturalistic explanation. This reminds me of when atheists argue that they would believe in God if he visually appeared to them or if he audibly spoke to them. The fact of the matter is that if someone is UNWILLING to believe something, then they will reject it REGARDLESS of evidence ...
    What is a "No God of the Gaps fallacy" supposed to mean? Is it the "fallacy" of refusing to accept the fallacy that our ignorance implies God did it?

    She did not say that no evidence would be sufficient. She said the existing evidence is not sufficient, and the fact that your assertions were filled with errors and outrageous overstatements justifies her rejection of them. If you want to convince anyone of anything, you will need to choose to use REAL LOGIC and REAL EVIDENCE. I've been trying to help you in this regard, but it seems you don't want to correct your errors. That seems very strange, since if you desire is to convince anyone of anything, the one thing of primary importance it make arguments based on solid logic and facts. You simply are not doing that.

    I am not "wishing" for a "naturalistic" explanation. And I am not "unwilling" to believe anything as such. I'll accept the best explanation, whatever it may be. My problem is that I have no explanation at all! As I've explained in great detail, it is simply impossible to believe that the Bible was designed by the God it describes. So what am I supposed to do? If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears.

    And speaking of folks who reject truth REGARDLESS of evidence, that describes the essential character of religious believers.

    Shine on, my friend!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •