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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Hello Searl!

    While I appreciate some of your background information on who the Palestinians are reputed to be, I find your conclusions to be fallacious. I do not believe in any one world government or any future seven year period of supposed tribulation because the Bible doesn't teach this. You have been suckered into this bogus interpretation of Revelation, like most of the churches in America. I would suggest digging deeply to find the roots of this false prophecy. It's quite a revealing story. And of greater importance than the history of the Palestinians, might I add.

    Stephen
    Hey there Stephen,

    How much do you really know of Searl's interpretation of Revelation? He just started sharing his views with us today ... I think its a little early to come down so heavy in judgment. And I can't see how telling him that he's been "suckered" can do much but make him feel stupid, or insulted, or both. Now I know you well enough to know that you didn't intend to have that effect, correct? OK then. Let's play nice.

    Richard

    PS: But let's not get so "nice" that we hesitate to tell each other what we really feel and believe. My point is that we can do that with a minimum of offence, and a maximum of respect.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #12
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    Apology

    Hello Richard and Searl!

    You are correct, Richard. I should hold back my fingers at times from translating thoughts into print. It was not my intention to insult Searl. For this, I apologise to Searl, and will allow him to express his views without ridiculing them. Having cleared up that misunderstanding, I nevertheless assert that there will be no future world government as the beast of Revelation. I believe the beast that Searl seems to be referring to has already been and largely gone, and is correctly known as the papacy which ruled Europe for over a thousand years. That beast murdered Christians in the tens of millions. Obviously God would not remain silent on this matter, which is why it occupies such a prominent place in the Revelation. The papacy has now been relegated to a bit player in world affairs.

    Stephen
    Last edited by Stephen; 09-05-2007 at 09:38 PM.
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Hello Richard and Searl!

    You are correct, Richard. I should hold back my fingers at times from translating thoughts into print. It was not my intention to insult Searl. For this, I apologise to Searl, and will allow him to express his views without ridiculing them. Having cleared up that misunderstanding, I nevertheless assert that there will be no future world government as the beast of Revelation. I believe the beast that Searl seems to be referring to has already been and largely gone, and is correctly known as the papacy which ruled Europe for over a thousand years. That beast murdered Christians in the tens of millions. Obviously God would not remain silent on this matter, which is why it occupies such a prominent place in the Revelation. The papacy has now been relegated to a bit player in world affairs.

    Stephen
    Hey ho Stephen!

    I knew you'd agree. Thanks!

    As for the beast, I agree with you. I am not aware of anything in the Bible that suggests there will be another "beast" like the one that tried to swallow up the first century church with a flood of persecution. The more I follow through with this interpretation, the more sense it makes. The Devil had "great wrath, because he [knew] that he hath but a short time." And why did he have a short time? Because if he knew that if he failed to "nip it in the bud" the Church would spread over the whole world and he would never be able to stop it. If, on the other hand, he could have killed all the first Christians, that would have been the end of it, and he would haved won the battle.

    That is why there has never been, and never will be, a time like the first century. The battle was fierce. It seems to me very clear that the LITERAL intepretation of Revelation demands that it happened in the first century, since Christ Himself, the Living Word, declared that those things would happen "soon" for the "time" was "at hand."

    But we also must remember that there could be multi-leveled applications. For example, the historicist position that the beast was the papacy certainly seems to have merit. There is no reason there could not be another fulfillment in terms of a world wide dictator, which some believe will be morphed out of the Catholic church. But on though this is possible, there is no way that we could know it before hand, since there is nothing in the text that could prove it. Its all rather speculative, and much of the conclusion are dubious. And for that matter, I think that whole "style" of interpretation is not what God intended. The Bible in general, and prophecy in particular, was given to BUILD FAITH. Prophecy serves this purpose after it is fulfilled, so then we have proof that it was from God, for He told us before it came to pass. That's the real purpose of prophecy. It is not given so we can spend endless hours making endless errors about the identity of the antichrist or the date of Christ's return. The sad fact is that that kind of activity destroys faith, rather than building it, and so is manifestly contrary to God's intent for the prophecies He gave.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    As for the beast, I agree with you. I am not aware of anything in the Bible that suggests there will be another "beast" like the one that tried to swallow up the first century church with a flood of persecution. The more I follow through with this interpretation, the more sense it makes. The Devil had "great wrath, because he [knew] that he hath but a short time." And why did he have a short time? Because if he knew that if he failed to "nip it in the bud" the Church would spread over the whole world and he would never be able to stop it. If, on the other hand, he could have killed all the first Christians, that would have been the end of it, and he would haved won the battle.

    That is why there has never been, and never will be, a time like the first century. The battle was fierce. It seems to me very clear that the LITERAL intepretation of Revelation demands that it happened in the first century, since Christ Himself, the Living Word, declared that those things would happen "soon" for the "time" was "at hand."

    But we also must remember that there could be multi-leveled applications. For example, the historicist position that the beast was the papacy certainly seems to have merit. There is no reason there could not be another fulfillment in terms of a world wide dictator, which some believe will be morphed out of the Catholic church. But on though this is possible, there is no way that we could know it before hand, since there is nothing in the text that could prove it. Its all rather speculative, and much of the conclusion are dubious. And for that matter, I think that whole "style" of interpretation is not what God intended. The Bible in general, and prophecy in particular, was given to BUILD FAITH. Prophecy serves this purpose after it is fulfilled, so then we have proof that it was from God, for He told us before it came to pass. That's the real purpose of prophecy. It is not given so we can spend endless hours making endless errors about the identity of the antichrist or the date of Christ's return. The sad fact is that that kind of activity destroys faith, rather than building it, and so is manifestly contrary to God's intent for the prophecies He gave.

    Richard


    One thing that comes to mind concerning the Catholic church being a second fulfillment of the Beast attempting to wipe out the church is:

    If the Devils great wrath against the fledgling church of the first century didn't work, then his next chance came when the Catholic church became the universal church, which had total power over the people. If at that time Satan could have totally corrupted the Catholic church from within (he almost succeeded), Satan could have destroy the church and that would have been the end of the church.

    Rose
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post

    One thing that comes to mind concerning the Catholic church being a second fulfillment of the Beast attempting to wipe out the church is:

    If the Devils great wrath against the fledgling church of the first century didn't work, then his next chance came when the Catholic church became the universal church, which had total power over the people. If at that time Satan could have totally corrupted the Catholic church from within (he almost succeeded), Satan could have destroy the church and that would have been the end of the church.

    Rose
    Excellent point!

    We can watch his strategies change over time.

    So now that his first two attempts failed, what is his third? My guess is the flood of false teachings, such as TBN, Benny Hinn, and the "Left Behind" series, to name three from the Top Ten Deceptions in the Church today.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #16
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    Ploys

    Hi Rose and Richard!

    Yes, ole nickpah has lots of tricks in his bag to try and deceive the church. He brings them out at various stages according to how things change on the ground, as it were.

    While I think the roman catholic church was part of the beast way back, I also think that those times have been and gone. If we look for nickpah's latest dirty tricks to deceive the church, we need to look at the Laodicean church of Revelation 3. There we meet the church of populism, so I think Richard is on the money when he has a crack at the likes of Benny Hinn and the false prophets of the rapture. Scabby flock-fleecers the lot of them.

    Of course, wealth in general is the other great drawcard of the Laodicean church. The gospel of prosperity, which is veiled materialism, is another of the evils to find its way to the pulpit. In the end, each of us has to constantly check our motivations and desires to see that they are right with God. This isn't an easy thing to do, which is why we have to be so vigilant. The dirty devil has chosen to beguile us with choice in this day and age. It was the same ploy he tried on our Lord as a last resort before he finally got given the boot: "Be gone, foul stench! For it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." (Matthew 4:8-10).

    Our Lord Jesus is the Word of Life. Amen!

    Stephen
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  7. #17
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    Hi Stephen -

    After too many years of studying and finding nothing that makes sense, I asked God Himself to explain it - after all He produced it, He knows precisely what it all means.

    Keep in mind that that it is not called ?Revelation? for nothing - He is not really trying to be evasive. However; He has so presented it so even though He reveals everything necessary for us to prepare for it, He has still left room for people to exercise their free will and thus even reject if they so choose.

    I first read Revelation through in 1955-56 (approximately) foolishly thinking I could unravel its mysteries. I finally concluded that no man could ever understand that jibberish unless God Himself explains it to him.

    In the meantime (about 1969) I first heard the Baptist/Pentecostal concept of the Rapture and all that. I thought it to be the most bizarre teaching to have ever come out of what alleges itself to be a church. It was about that time that Hal Lindsey published his ?Late, Great Planet Earth? which basically took all those strange teachings and formed them into a cohesive scenario.

    Saw the movie as well. Hal Lindsey more than any other person on earth is responsible for making the world End-Times conscious. Not only that, even mainline churches began having teachings on the End-Times where-as prior to that, none of them ever seriously broached the subject.

    The problem is that no matter what teaching one hears, he comes away with that gut feeling :That isn?t quite right?. But what is ?right?? The answer is that no-one can determine what is right concerning the End-Times by his own intellect. All teachings are man-made - the opinions of men - the very thing about which Jesus so severely criticized the Pharisees.

    The Catholics long ago in their attempt to be the final authority on the Bible interpreted Revelation with no possible point of reference so they made the revelations there-in all to be allegorical with respect to problems with th Roman Empire in the 1st Century. In that they are ?infallible?, they painted themselves into a corner from which they cannot escape with dignity.

    Seeing that the Catholic church are the originators of the concept of Revelation having been fulfilled by the events of the 1st Century, it certainly is unreasonable to expect that they cast themselves in the role of the Beast or the Harlot, wouldn?t you agree?

    And so God confounds the wisdom of men - proving man?s knowledge to be foolishness. There is surprisingly nothing in so many words is ?hidden? within the Text of Revelation. Neither is it some sort of jig-saw puzzle requiring its various elements be fitted into a particular place to reveal its meaning. All is in its proper place, it has perfect order to it.

    As for all this hoopla about the ?Antichrist?? Pure rubbish.

    Rebuilt ?Third Temple?? Rubbish.

    ?7 Years of Tribulation?? Nonsense.

    ?Great Tribulation Period?? Misapplied.

    ?Pre-Trib Rapture?? Meaningless.

    Shalom.
    ________
    trichome
    Last edited by Searl Miller; 01-21-2011 at 03:27 PM.

  8. #18
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    Hello Richard -

    Thank you.

    A partial quote from your above response to my post:
    ? - but you lost me on the last statement concerning the "International Socialists" " - I agree that those folks really would like to be in charge of a "one-world government" but I don't have any reason to believe they will be successful.?

    Reply:
    YEARS of study & observation shows that whether the ideology is said to be Communism, Socialism, Marxism, Naziism, Fascism, etc. at its core is the belief by its proponents that they are somehow superior to the ?masses? and by ?Divine Right? of intellectual superiority, they more than any others MUST assume all positions of power & authority.

    Under this guise of ?modernism? or ?progressive thinking? with all their terminology (call it Double Speak & New Speak, if you wish) what they are really attempting to do is re-establish Feudalism.

    And yes, they are entrenched in the leadership of every nation on earth, they control the voting majority of member nations in the U.N. and yes, the legislation for converting the U.N. into a world government was written back in the 1960s and has been held in abeyance ever since - ready for whenever they are assured that in making that move they will succeed.

    They had really hoped that they could pull this off by the year 2000 so that in ushering in the New Millennium They could also simultaneously announce the world government. However; there has been one major member nation dragging its feet who has in so doing caused them delays in achieving their goal.

    You wrote:
    ?Which events of Revelation do you think are still future??

    Reply:
    Lemme see. The Messages to the 7 Churches were in fact to those churches in John?s ?diocese? (if you will) - but they are standards by which all believers since then have had need to measure themselves - and especially as we enter that final period of this Age.

    The 7 Seals are all Past - up until the 5th Seal which represents the Present - as it has represented since the Revelation was given.

    That leaves the 6th Seal Event to occur which quickly results in the opening of the 7th Seal which essentially includes all that follows.

    The exclusions are quite logical: they are those portions of Explanatory Passages which reveal how these things come to be, and who are the culprits.

    You wrote:
    ?Do you adhere to any one of the major "schools" of thought on Revelation and End-time prophecy??

    Reply:
    Not unless on some point they happen to be correct - but I try to wipe all their stuff from my memory because all they do is either cause confusion or add to the confusion.

    You wrote:
    ?Myself, I am a partial preterist. I believe that most of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century. The only things now to be finished are the worldwide preaching, discipling of the nations, and the Second Coming of Christ at which time He will deliver the Kingdom up to God the Father.?

    Reply:
    Well I?m glad to know you are not a Full Preterist because that view either denies the Divinity of Revelation or makes God a liar. I am surprised that they have such difficulty realizing that their conclusions effectually does just that.

    Shalom.
    ________
    Suzuki AS50
    Last edited by Searl Miller; 01-21-2011 at 03:27 PM.

  9. #19
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    Hi Searl!

    Code:
     
    As for all this hoopla about the “Antichrist”? Pure rubbish.
     
    Rebuilt “Third Temple”? Rubbish.
     
    “7 Years of Tribulation”? Nonsense.
     
    “Great Tribulation Period”? Misapplied.
     
    “Pre-Trib Rapture”? Meaningless.

    Couldn't agree with you more!

    Yes, the Revelation is the toughest book to decrypt. I certainly don't understand it all that well, but favour the historicist interpretation most. But, as you remark, there are sometimes things that don't feel right.

    I don't know what preterism is, so I can't comment on it till I do a bit of reading around the subject. I was surprised to find that you are not a futurist as such. To believe in a one world government was something I always associated with futurist interpretation, which, as you rightly say, is rubbish, nonsense and meaningless.

    I don't think there will ever be a one world government, except that which I believe Christ will institute. There are just far too many fundamental differences between nations for it to ever come to that. You remarked yourself on the different ideologies in the world, such as communism, socialism, marxism etc. These cannot coexist with competing ideologies, pure and simple. So I cannot accept any conspiracy theory of a one world government. As for the UN, who takes that paper tiger seriously? They were powerless to stop America going into Iraq. When the tough get going, the UN displays the perfect sidestep to get out of the way.

    By the way, what nation do you see as dragging its feet in relation to implementing some grand UN plan? I could name you quite a few that fit the bill in regards to dragging the feet.

    Stephen
    Last edited by Stephen; 09-07-2007 at 05:37 AM.
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  10. #20
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    Hello Stephen -

    Preterism is the view that all Prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st Century. The problem with it is in my view a glaring one: this being: if that was the case, why was there a 2nd Century? After all, Revelation foretells a series of events culminating in the conclusion of all things as we know them. If they were correct, we would be lining in Heaven at this moment - but we are not. Of they were correct, there would be no more suffering and death, God would have wiped away our every tear, etc.

    So the long & short of it is that either the Preterists are wrong or God is a liar. There are simply no other choices.

    Being that I am reluctant to call God a liar, I believe it more prudent to conclude that the Preterists are wrong.

    Besides, I already know they are wrong - possibly more so that the Tribulationists - so there really is nothing to dispute with them.

    The catch is that Revelation covers from the Beginning of Creation to the Consummation. So it covers the Past, Present, & Future. Thus those who think it has been fulfilled are partially correct and those who think it?s all future are also partially correct.

    To understand it at all you must recognise that it is both literal & figurative, it treats things physical as well as spiritual. You must discern which are physical and which spiritual. This only gets tricky with respect to those events that both spiritual & physical.

    Revelation is multi-layered with respect to interpretation. All the Prophecies of the Bible are brought together by it. An example of what I mean is that all the personifications are collective. That is to same; the Dragon represents not only Satan but all the evil spirits combined - that is to say; Satan?s kingdom.

    The Woman in Chapter 12 not only represents Mary the mother of Jesus but all of Israel.

    The Beast of Revelation is the 4th Beast of Daniel but in the ensuing years has undergone metamorphosis which in the end makes the Beast more closely resemble the Dragon. Compare the description of the Beast in Chapter 13 with its description in Chapter 17. The difference between the two is reflective of the passage of time.

    Neither the beast nor the False Prophet is a particular individual but represents the whole collection of like-minded people. On another level the Beast represents the ?flesh? , the ?beast? within all of us. God?s people must over-come their own flesh but also must over-cone the worldly Beast. It is person struggle on one hand, but one must also not become like the greater Beast who issues the Mark.

    The ?Mark? is both physical and it is spiritual which by taking the physical Mark one also indelibly marks his own soul and ?seals? his fate.

    The Harlot in Chapter 17 I ia a personification of Babylon the Great which as can be seen in Chapter 18 is a great nation unlike any other that has gone before. The use of the figure of a Harlot is to show that where-as Babylon the Great was once a Golden Cup in the Hand of God, she has taken the favor of God and has treated it with contempt.

    In the matter of Gematria, I really don?t delve very deeply into that. I use the numbers 1 thru 9 occasionally to augment a point but that?s about it. However; in the matter of the number 666 there are Texts which read 616 but the reliability of same is questionable. Nevertheless there are few out there who insist that the correct number in that Verse is 616. Actually, 616 simply does not fit with the whole Revelation system which goes 1-1-1, 2-2-2, 3-3-3, etc. with respect to the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls.

    The 6th Bowl, 6th Trumpet, and 6th Bowl each represent some sort of limitation of mankind. For example, he 6th Seal Event is caused by men. In each case of 6, you?ll find it represents man at his best or in this case; at his worst. However; God has said that this will a time for perfecting the Saints. He Who started a good work in us is Faithful to complete it so He being the Finisher of our faith. So He does so by the addition of 1 in each case - representing God. The result is 777 that is complete perfection.

    Shalom.
    ________
    silversurfer vaporizer
    Last edited by Searl Miller; 01-21-2011 at 03:27 PM.

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