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  1. #1
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    The Ideals of Hamas?

    Hi folks,

    I started this thread because of a comment made by Jessica in the Guest Forum:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    The website is very dynamic. I like the fact that there is a politics discussion present in the other forums. Although, I support the Palestinian people and their struggle, Like, I actually somewhat support Hamas and their ideals. I want to respond to everything, but would not care to offend anyone or begin a fight.
    Jessica, could you describe the "ideals" of Hamas that you support?

    Richard

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Everytime I try writing this, I write pages, so let me make it brief and concise as I know how.
    Hi Jessica,

    Wow ... that's quite a post. Thanks for giving us your point of view. It differs somewhat from mine, so I think we may have an opportunity to have both of our horizons broadened.

    You seem to have given this issue a lot of thought. How did you get interested in this topic in the first place?

    Before I answer you specific points, let me say that I know that many Palestinians have legitimate complaints. I know Israel has done some very bad things as they have fought for their survival. But I also know that they are in a war and the same things can be said about the other side. Furthermore, I know that there are many Palestinians who are good people and who want peace. I think the primary problem in the region is caused by corrupt leaders, like Arafat in the past and Hamas now. With that, let me respond to the points you posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    I support Hamas in their current struggle due to the fact that the Palestinians voted for them, fairly. In fact, currently 80%, an overwhelming majority of Palestinians are backing them and the tactics that they are using to fight Israel.
    Does that mean you would have supported Hitler if he had been voted in by a popular majority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Why are Palestinians supporting Hamas? If you know any Palestinians you will probably say that it isn't because they are ruthless people who would like to see every Jewish or Israeli in the world off the map.
    Well, the destruction of Israel is the official position of Hamas, and that is one of the main reasons they are not receiving foreign aide. Hamas is a murderous criminal organization. Getting itself elected didn't change that, did it? While I agree that ordinary Palestinians want a state, it seems to me that Hamas does not care about that at all - they simply want to murder Jews because they have been brainwashed since youth to believe that Allah wants them to murder Jews. If they wanted a state, they would sit down at the table and talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Palestinians support Hamas because they believe that the group will facilitate a change. A quick change. A change that they have been waiting for, roughly 60 years, is that right?
    Who in their right mind would think to elect a terrorist organization if they really wanted peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    They want to be recognized as a nation- state.
    Actually, the non-brainwashed Palestinians would be happiest as citizens of Israel, where they can vote and freely express their opinions. In most if not all Arab countries you have no real freedom. For example, you are often murdered if you convert to Christ. Israel is the only sane country in that region that I know of. Turkey is a somewhat distant second from what I've heard. Do you know of any other country over there that people live in true freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Palestinians were cut off from many foreign aid outlets after the election of Hamas. What right does anyone have to take away foreign aid, from an entire group of people, especially if it is most certainly going to be spent for food and water etc., because they do not approve of the democratically elected government pushing to be recognized as a nation- state?
    Foreign aide is not a "right" - we don't give foreign aide to nations run by dictators or terrorists no matter how they came to power. And we don't have any reason to believe that the money would be spent on the people's welfare. The sad fact is that the corrupt Palestinian leaders - especially Arafat - made themselves exceedingly rich by stealing BILLIONS of dollars in foreign aide. Just think of how the Palestinians suffer because of their corrupt leaders! It would be exceedingly naive to give a group like Hamas anything. They have proven they can not be trusted, even by their own people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    I have spoken to Palestinians about this situation. Not only do them mention the above, but they also mention that their dignity has been 'shattered' due to the current situation and being controlled by a culturally different group of people.
    They "shattered" their own dignity when they chose the path of murder and lies. They teach their children that Jews descended from monkeys and pigs. They teach their children to hate and to murder. They name their high-schools after blood-soaked murderous suicide bombers. They have transformed their culture into a cult of death worshipers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    When I ask about suicide bombing, I hear often that because it is difficult for them to get ahold of arms, this is their form of retaliation. Truly, a suicide bomb must be one of the least complicated designs of a weapon apart from a rock.
    I've heard that excuse too. If the suicide bombings were restricted to Palestine, they might be able to form a semblance of a case, though I still wouldn't believe it because they usually target women and children. But the reality of world-wide Islamic suicide bombings reveals the claim that "the Israeli's made me murder your baby" to be so outrageously ridiculous as to not warrant further rebuttal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    I also have been introduced to many Israelis, who I have gained almost an unattainable amount of respect for. I have heard testimony to growing up in Tel Aviv, with bombs going off, and never knowing where a suicide bomber was- the fear that accompanies Israelis in their daily activities, due to Islamic extremists like Hamas.
    Glad you recognize the problem of "Islamic extremists like Hamas."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    They must be negotiated with, not ignored. I feel that it is entirely ignorant of the every western nation to not face these pressing issues 'head on' and to grant more room for diplomacy, with Hamas, NOT FATAH. Abbas no longer controls either region. Truly the negotiations must be with the group who rules the areas, not this 'wishful thinking', and so long as Abbas is seen as 'a puppet' the people will never back him instead of Hamas.
    I agree we should meet these issues "head on" - but the diplomacy should probably begin with the surrounding Arab and Egyptian nations that at least have a semblance of legitimacy. Hamas wants to murder all Israel - how can you pursue diplomacy with someone who would blow up his own baby if it gave him a chance to kill you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    I never see diplomacy as being a lost cause, and I certainly see Hamas as displaying some signs of being willing to negotiate. The release of the journalist Alan Johnson from BBC, shows that they have authority in the region, that they may be willing to behave in international eyes, and may have the ability to be reasoned with.
    How far do you think diplomacy would have gotten you with Hitler? I can assure you he displayed many "signs of being willing to negotiate" while he carefully maneuvered his death machine into striking position.

    Please don't take this wrong - I respect your position and you've written a very interesting and provocative post - but you seem really naive about these political realities. Hamas is not a group of old ladies who just want a place to sit and drink their tea. They have murder on their minds, and they will tell you exactly that if you ask them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    I support Hamas because they may be able to facilitate a change for the miserable populations of the Occupied Territories, and may be able to make Israel listen to their demands as everyone has rights to those lands. Without Hamas, no one will listen, and any negotiation 'made' will remain broken.
    You need to ask yourself why the Palestinians are miserable. What have their leaders done for them but force Israel to "occupy" their country just so they can stop the murderous hordes of brain-washed suicide robots? Hamas has forced Israel to step down hard on the necks of the ordinary folks because Hamas HIDES BEHIND THE CIVILIANS when they attack Israel. Talk about a "shattered dignity" - those "men" hide behind baby carts when they go to out to fight their valiant "war" against Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    I feel that with Hamas there is an honest stab at peace. Something like peace could emerge from this blatant extremism and actions oddly enough. It certianly wouldn't be the first time in history war leads to peace. And, peace in this region, is a win win situation for everyone.
    Yes, there have been times war was necessary. WWII is a good example. But this is entirely different. There is no chance of peace with Hamas, because the stated purpose of Hamas is the destruction of Israel.

    Thanks for the very stimulating post Jessica.

    Richard

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Somehow, I knew I wasn't going to get away with that.
    Funny .... I knew I wouldn't either!

    Looks like we're in this one together, Jessica. So let's be nice to each other. I will certainly do my best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Alright, first question, No, I would never have wished Hitler to be elected.
    Great! Does that mean you retract your statement that you support Hamas because it was "democratically elected"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    In Somalia, when Aideed was leading the country into mass starvation because of fighting between him and another warlord, was that right? Is it ever right to starve or hurt people on the basis of who they elected? Personally, I don't think so. I feel that is wiping out or exterminating a whole tribe of people, like genocide. How could that not be wrong?
    You asked "Is it ever right to starve or hurt people on the basis of who they elected?" The unfortunate answer is "yes." If the people elected a terrorist group that uses them to murder innocent civilians in a neighboring country, then yes, it is morally right to hurt the attackers in order to save the innocent victims.

    True morality is never neutral towards evil. Granted, Christ said "turn the other cheek" but He did not intend that to be interpreted as "turn away from the innocent teenage girl and let her be raped and murdered by the evil men." NO! The truth of God demands that if we must use our strength we must protect the weak from the wicked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    The negotiated peace deals never reach their promises. This is why it has turned to extremism,
    That most definitely is NOT why they turned to extremism. They turned to extremism because they were taught to hate and to murder. The proof is totally obvious. The Islamic violence is not restricted to Palestine. The whole world is awash in blood spilled by fanatical Muslims. It is a world-wide Islamic problem. And moderate Muslims can't even talk about it for fear of being victims themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    and prior to Hamas' landslide victory, Israel never seemed to want to uphold international law and even now. Clearly look at how many UN resolutions have been vetoed on Israel's behalf.
    Many nations in the UN are violent Muslim dictatorships that pass unjust resolutions against Israel, and can not even bring themselves to pretend to condemn terrorism. The resolutions are a farce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Not that it makes Hamas right, because I know all about 'Farfar and trying to illicit the youth for fighting, but I mean really, they do need every fighter they can get their hands on, just like Israel right? Because in Israel it is a 2 year mandatory term, yes?
    Wrong. They wouldn't need an "soldiers" if they weren't trying to murder their neighbors. The Israelis are not insane nor are they evil. They would simply like a place to live. So they have a microscopic sliver of their own ancient homeland, and what do their brothers do? (Remember Arabs are semitic too) - they seek to murder them! Why is that? It goes back to the Hadiths of their "Prophet" which say that even the trees will say "You Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him!" That is the true nature of the "religion" we are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Third, freedom, is what you say it is. If freedom is the ability to murder someone in the streets without being prosecuted that is freedom, but if we are discussing what most people would refer to as 'rights' here in the west, then certainly you would have your point here, I just don't know if they want it differently...
    I'm glad you recognize my point that they have no freedom over there. But I must disagree that "freedom is what you say it is." That sounds like meaningless post-modern pablum. Words have meaning. If you were dropped off in the middle of Saudi Arabia tomorrow you'd know perfectly well the objective definition of "Freedom" and you would do anything necessary to get it back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Fourth, truly, we aid dictators all the time, and do you know of any non corrupt leaders? I certainly don't. corruption exists everywhere, it isn't limited to third world nation-less states.
    Good point. But that doesn't make me want to support Hamas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Fifth, the notion that they 'shattered their own dignity' I don't understand. Can we not associate cultural relativity anywhere? Are their freedom fighters any different than our own?
    Yes, they are different in every way. The suicide bombers are brainwashed robots fed on a diet of pure hatred. If you can't see the difference from Americans willing to follow the example of Christ and to lay down their lives for LOVE for their fellow humans, then I won't bother explaining it to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Do we not have memorials set up in the name of fighters, schools and libraries associated with the names of presidents who reap war that have wounded and killed mass amounts of civilian, (women and children)...vietnam...iraq...?
    American memorials are not designed to celebrate people who target babies for murder. Don't get confused here. Collateral damage is a part of war. But we do not teach nor celebrate the murder of civilians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Our society is screwed up, and I feel the whole world is pretty messed up. Islamic culture, much like my opinion of Western culture, doesn't have it all wrong. They both have good and bad.
    I agree that the world is messed up. That's a central message of Scripture. And I never said Islamic culture "has it all wrong." The unfortunate fact though is that we are not having this conversation because of the great contributions Islam has given the world. We are having this conversation because Islam is dragging the world down into a bloodbath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    It is easy for me to see both sides of the pendulum here, Islam is awful, it promotes suicide bombings, where as they think the west is perverse. the west starves women and children, cutting off aid money because they believe they are more entitled to the worlds' resources, whereas you say the east blows up themselves and women and children, because of Allah, which means God, so let us reffer to it as 'Islamic ideas'.
    I agree that our culture has been gravely corrupted. And I know that the corruption Hollywood spews out into the world is a primary tool in the Islamic propaganda against the west. It looks like we very well may pay in blood for the filth that allowed to be poured into the world from our own country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Everyone who feels that Islamic culture is about death and destruction should listen to some Arabic music. Everything they sing about is love. they have more words for love in their language (to the best of my knowledge) than any other, and their poetry is some of the best, ever, in a lot of peoples eyes. Would this be so if all of their passion was being funnelled into death and destruction?
    Middle eastern music is wonderful, and yes, very romantic. I over stated the situation when I said that they had "transformed their culture into a cult of death worshipers" I should have limited my comment to the radicalized 10%-30% of the population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    The men in this culture are so emotional and sensitive, I am sure most people have no idea. This is what leads to their ideas of dignity being shattered. You must watch them communicate and make business with one another to understand what they understand is respect and what isn't... And, after watching them, you will soon find that being ignored internationally, and having their culture torn apart by the west is not what makes them feel respected, and does not help promote peace in the region.
    I have visited middle eastern and asian countries and I know exactly what you are talking about. The emotional tone is much warmer between men than anything you would ever find in the western nations. But I don't think that is the real issue. Again, you must remember that they basically run around screaming things like "Israel insulted me so they must all DIE DIE DIE," so we know that Israel is not the root of the problem. The proof is the world-wide Islamic terrorism. The violence comes from a particularly virulent strain of radical Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Our culture has media that promotes death and destruction, what are action and horror movies? Saw 1 and Saw 2 ?
    NO. I can assure you I have not seen those movies. They are wicked to the core. The are purely evil. They are a disgrace to our nation, they are dragging us into the pit of hell, and they should be strictly banned. There is no "freedom of speech" to display willful, grotesque, evil, murder for monetary gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    I would even go so far as to say that their culture is far more respectful than ours, in many ways.
    So long as you are not a woman ... or a Jew ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Normal relations with family, parents, relatives, elders, women... They even treat their animals better than we do in the West, so come on! Hate and destruction is what you witness in the opposing side of any war, not limited towards the Palestinians or in this case Hamas. They are people too, not just robots.
    Sure, the majority are folks like you and me suffering in a mad world that they can do nothing about. I didn't think we were talking about them. They are not the problem. They could live in peace with Israel today and forever. We are talking about the robots who have been brainwashed with hatred from their early youth and who think murdering Jews is a good thing. Remember, Hamas will not even grant Israel the right to exist!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    I do see the problem of extremists, and this is not related solely to Islamic ones... And, this whole ' Israel made me murder your baby' I haven't ever heard, nor have I heard that they target women and children.
    It seems you have not been paying attention. I'll gather some facts for you and post them here when I get time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    In fact I have heard the exact opposite, and have spoken to people who were beaten to near death by Israeli soldiers for solely walking Palestinian children to school. I mean come on, that argument is really on both sides, don't tell me you haven't heard the other one.
    Excellent point. That's why I opened this discussion by stating exactly the same thing! Here, let me repeat:

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Before I answer you specific points, let me say that I know that many Palestinians have legitimate complaints. I know Israel has done some very bad things as they have fought for their survival. But I also know that they are in a war and the same things can be said about the other side. Furthermore, I know that there are many Palestinians who are good people and who want peace. I think the primary problem in the region is caused by corrupt leaders, like Arafat in the past and Hamas now. With that, let me respond to the points you posted:
    See? I'm not one-sided on this issue at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    I feel that Hamas is only an international outrage because they give it to you strait, they tell you what they're after. I wish that Israel and the western world were so transparent sometimes.

    Remmember, Israel doesn't aknowledge Palestine, being ignored internationally is bad enough, but for their culture, that is taking an axe to their core. You really couldn't be more offensive, or invasive, after all, this is just a bad situation all around. Israel had to be made there, they had no choice, and the Palestinians want their land back that they occupied prior to the return of the Jewish holocaust survivors.
    Agreed. The situation is terrible all around. But lauding Hamas is not going to help, let me assure you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    It is a really bad situation, but I think Israel could make more friends if it set aside its pride and allowed for a Palestinian state. Hamas is simply igniting a flame to get the ball rolling. Like I said, this is why they were democratically elected.

    Always glad to promote thought, and appreciate any opportunity to share my understanding,
    Jessica
    An I am very glad you shared your understanding with us. I hope you will continue to do so. You are certainly welcome here.

    One thing I've learned is that it takes a really long time for friend to even begin to understand each other. The problem is a thousand times worse with enemies. That's why the promotion of violence as a solution to the Palestinian problem is so VERY wrong. It will never be a solution. I don't understand why you would think it offers any hope at all.

    Thanks for sharing,

    Richard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Hey Richard,
    You seem to know a lot on the subject. Are you from there, or is your family from there?
    Hi Jessica,

    No, but I have had close and loving relations with Muslim people at various times in my life. And in my search for the truth of God, I have studied Islam. In the "mystical" stage of my quest, I was very taken by Sufism, which is, as you probably know, a very beautiful, mystical, poetic, and entirely non-violent branch of Islam. Or so I thought ... but upon closer examination, I concluded that Sufism isn't really a form of Islam, but rather it is the perennial philosophy dressed in the garb of Islam so it could survive under Islamic rule.

    I hope you understand that I really do appreciate the great beauty and true value of the various eastern cultures ... don't let my strong opinions about the problem of terrorism make you think I don't recognize the value of the people living over there. Indeed, it is because of their intrinsic value that I am horrified to see the rise of such irrational violence. It destroys their freedom and leads to such overwhelming misery that lasts for generations. We must do everything we can to lead people to the feet of the Master Teacher, the Prince of Peace, the Lord Jesus Christ. His ways are the Ways of Peace and Love, in the strength and power of perfect Truth. He taught the perfect Truth of God, for indeed, He is the perfect Truth of God!

    Ooops. Ya got me preachin', sistar!

    Talk more soon,

    Richard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Richard,

    It is so good to hear that you love muslim people... as do I. They ask me to pray with them, and for their famillies, we do not allow our cultures or our religions to divide us. I love them for that!
    Hey Jessica,

    I'm really glad you stuck with me long enough so I could get a chance to express my true feelings about Muslims, since my strong anger against their terrorist leaders could easily be mistaken for hatred of them. And no, I don't just love them in the "Jesus loves them" sort of obligatory "I'm supposed to love everyone" sense, but I really do love the beautiful aspects of their culture that we discussed earlier. But they also have some huge problems in their culture - especially surrounding freedom in general, and religious freedom in particular - but I see that as more of a political than a cultural problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    My fathers' family is part Russian Jewish, and faught during ww2 which you mentioned quite a bit. I studied it while growing up, and spoke with my grandfather who faught in it for America.
    Very interesting ... I'm sure there are seeds for more than a few conversations in that one short paragraph!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    while I understand the reasons Israel was made a state- and I have some ideas on why the Allied forces situated it there, I do not understand why the Palestinians haven't been given the right to create a state.
    I don't know either. I have read a little about what led up to the current problems, and one of the big things was that there is a general feeling that all the land in that part of the world must be ruled by Muslims because it is "Muslim land." I have a book called "The Israel-Arab Reader" which traces the roots of the problem by reviewing the original documents that record it, and it said that the leaders of Saudi Arabia and other neighboring nations warned Britain that there would be perpetual conflict if they tried to set up a state of Israel. Their words were prophetic ... but we don't know if the prophecy was self-fulfilled, by which I mean, it looks like the Arab nations are causing the suffering of the Palestinians so they can use them as human bombs to destroy Israel. This technique is called a "cat's paw." Have you heard of it before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    I feel that it is time for that. Hamas is bringing about change, this is why the Palestinian people support him, and I support the Palestinians, etc.
    Well, I still am convinced that Hamas is not going to help, because their goal is not peace. They want to destroy Israel. This means that even if Israel conceded and recognized Palestine, there would still be war. And there will be war until Israel is destroyed or Hamas repents of their evil or are themselves destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Israel refuses to accept that it has been such a long time since 1945, and often times I feel like they use the holocaust as justification for their barbaric acts and their handling of the Arabs in their lands.
    Yes, there is the sad phenomenon of the victims becoming the victimizers. I know that has happened in Israel, though I don't know to what extent. And as for the "rough" handling of Arabs .... well, you need to consider how you would handle a people that smuggle bombs in ambulances and baby carriages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Israel seems to make themselves look like victims, but they did decide to keep the Palestinian people out of power, and they even tried to grab the Suez and Sinai Penn. in '67 I believe, with the British.
    The Palestinian problem is not simple. And Israel has given to many demands, but often their concessions are interpreted as weakness (that's an aspect of the macho middle-eastern culture I don't relish) and then taken advantage of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica Engerman View Post
    Do you feel that there is any other way to make Israel negotiate a good deal without threatening force? I don't see how. Most countries back Israel due to political ties. I don't think Palestinians stand a chance for striking a fair deal without an extremist group like Hamas, to stand up for their cause.

    Jessica
    Israel withdrew from Gaza UNILATERALLY and then the Palestians used that land to shoot rockets at Israel. Why do you blame Israel? Don't you see that the Palistinians are causing the violence? The more they threaten the civilians in Israel, the heavier Israel must step on the Palestinians to stop them. The Palestinians are the ones who are escalating the violence because that is what they have been taught by violent and evil leaders.

    Violence is not the answer. There would be peace in Palestine today if the Hamas and the other terrorists laid down thier weapons. And what would happen if Israel laid down her weapons?

    Sure, there would be peace.

    The peace one finds in the grave.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    There re no "Palestinians". That is the first element of the whole fiction being promulgated to create the chaotic conditions we all see there. They are Arabs,

    Nebuchadnezzar wiped out the Palestinians soon after taking Judah exile. By "wiped out" I mean they were also taken into exile or escaped to other Aegean nations such as Crete, Cyprus, Athens, Sparta, Cyrene, Carthage, etc. That was the end of them.

    Palestine is Greek for the Roman "Philistia" which is the ancient nation of the Philistines who were Aegean (like the Greeks not Arabs) and it applied only to the area which is now called the Gaza Strip.

    The Greeks called Judah "Palestine" as an insult to the Jews because of all the trouble the Jews gave them when trying to conquer Judah. The Romans renamed it Judea. However; in latter years Europeans began referring to the general area as "Palestine" after the Greek. But the fact remains that there are now no longer any Palestinians there and have not been for some 2600 years.

    Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) always wanted to visit the Holy Land which he did in 1912. He traveled from the south near Jerusalem all the way up to the Sea of Galilee and saw some 200 families of Bedouins. Bedouins were/are nomadic Arabs who live in tents, and follow the changes in seasons in order to graze their livestock year round. Therefore; they might have been in what is now the Kingdom of Jordan, up in Syria and what is now Iraq, in the land of Israel or farther south and east in Arabia. Point is; they are now exactly ?natives? of any particular place.

    Clemens expected to see a land Blessed by God - all green and fertile but was grossly disappointed because instead he saw nothing but desert, rocks, swamps, and scrub growth. He said it is ?the most God-forsaken place on earth?.

    The reason for this is that AT the time of the Diaspora (circa 120 AD) the Romans angrily spread salt over all the fields, orchards, and vineyards so that nothing would ever grow there again - so that the Jews would have nothing to come back to.

    But while the whole region was under British rune, the Balfour Declaration of November 1917 gave the Jews the right to re-settle there. However; because of the condition of the land, the British restricted the immigration of Jews because they knew that it wasn?t capable of supporting a large influx of people. These were the years between the two World Wars.

    Originally, the entire area was to become Israel but since Hussein greatly helped the British beat the Ottoman Turks, Britain ceded the eastern portion east of the Jordan River to him and he became King Hussein of the Kingdom of Jordan.

    Among the first things Jews did was try to reclaim the land. They drained swamps to solve the mosquito problem and hopefully revive the soil. However; it was a huge task and there were not enough laborers to do it, and the British would not allow enough more Jews in to handle this, so the Jews hired Arabs to help.

    Those Arabs came from Lebanon, Syria, Arabia, Egypt, etc. The so-called "Palestinians are MOSTLY the descendants of these foreign laborers.

    When World War II ended, the UN gave Israel national status BUT they whittled down Biblical Israel to a fraction of itself - the north being connected to the south by a corridor of land only 13 miles across at one point.

    The Jews gave the Arabs who had helped them equal citizenship which they retain to this day. Many Arabs appreciate this because they have right in Israel they would never have had in the nations of the ancestry. But in every culture there is an unappreciative radical element that can be easily induced to causes trouble out of all proportion to their numbers.

    And don?t forget that the number of Jews out-number the descendants of the Arab workers at least 2 to 1. Yet, everyone expects Israel to forfeit the lion's share of Israel over to the Arabs.

    As quickly as Israel became a nation on May 15, 1948, the neighboring Arab nations attacked Israel, and somehow this tiny bunch of Jews beat the invaders and reclaimed some of Israel in the process.

    The big one after that was the famed 6-Day War in which They got back what is now being called "the West Bank" and the rest of Jerusalem that had been ceded to Jordan by the UN. They also took the Gaza Strip which had been under the control of Egypt and even all of the Sinai peninsula - but which latter they gave back in a peace agreement with President Sadat of Egypt.

    However; Moslem clerics have pledged to push all Jews into the Mediterranean Sea. So there can never be a peaceful settlement with the Arabs.

    If you think this is about religion and human rights, you have been duped by propagandists. Hamas is just one of many terrorist groups around the world who are funded by International Socialists in order to create continual chaos around the world so that a one-world Socialist government can be established to resolve those same problems.

    Basically, the UN legislation for all of this is right now waiting for that right moment to be enacted - then they can announce it everyone can say "Peace & Safety" and then the End-Time events described in the Book of the Revelation will begin - because that world government is the Beast of Revelation.

    Shalom.
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    Last edited by Searl Miller; 01-21-2011 at 03:26 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Seoul, Korea (originally from Auckland, New Zealand)
    Posts
    253

    Palestine

    Hello Searl!

    While I appreciate some of your background information on who the Palestinians are reputed to be, I find your conclusions to be fallacious. I do not believe in any one world government or any future seven year period of supposed tribulation because the Bible doesn't teach this. You have been suckered into this bogus interpretation of Revelation, like most of the churches in America. I would suggest digging deeply to find the roots of this false prophecy. It's quite a revealing story. And of greater importance than the history of the Palestinians, might I add.

    Stephen
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Azle, Texas
    Posts
    22
    Stephen -

    Thank you for your comments. My Comments above were no commentary on Revelation but on the deceptions abundant in modern media concerning issues in the Middle-East.

    With respect to my final reference to the Beast, I can only say that neither have I been "suckered" by anyone unless it be God as you have unwittingly asserted. Please pray on this matter.

    Shalom.
    ________
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    Last edited by Searl Miller; 01-21-2011 at 03:27 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Seoul, Korea (originally from Auckland, New Zealand)
    Posts
    253

    Revelation

    Hello Searl!

    I stand by what I said. There will be no one world government under any beast, of that I am certain. The only people who believe this are those whose interpretation of Revelation and Daniel is based on the teachings of pop futurists, villains like Hal Lindsey and his ilk. Again, I counsel you to do some digging into the history of this false prophecy of futurism. It makes some very interesting reading. Rather than suggesting you pray about it, which is simply a cop out for actually doing something and checking out whether something you adhere to is founded on sand, you really ought to check out the historicist interpretation of Revelation. It makes far more sense than the junk spewed out by the futurist false prophets. It can be scrutinised in detail because it is based on both Scripture and historical events. Futurist fluff is floss for the lazy masses. So come on, Searl! Research the matter ... and then pray about it!

    Stephen
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,143
    Quote Originally Posted by Searl Miller View Post
    There re no "Palestinians". That is the first element of the whole fiction being promulgated to create the chaotic conditions we all see there. They are Arabs,

    <snip of lots of good stuff I mostly agree with>

    If you think this is about religion and human rights, you have been duped by propagandists. Hamas is just one of many terrorist groups around the world who are funded by International Socialists in order to create continual chaos around the world so that a one-world Socialist government can be established to resolve those same problems.
    Hi Searl!

    I was tracking with what you wrote at a rate of about 90% (which is really high, considering the amount of history you covered), but you lost me on the last statement concerning the "International Socialists" - I agree that those folks really would like to be in charge of a "one-world government" but I don't have any reason to believe they will be successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Searl Miller View Post
    Basically, the UN legislation for all of this is right now waiting for that right moment to be enacted - then they can announce it everyone can say "Peace & Safety" and then the End-Time events described in the Book of the Revelation will begin - because that world government is the Beast of Revelation.

    Shalom.
    Which events of Revelation do you think are still future? Do you adhere to any one of the major "schools" of thought on Revelation and End-time prophecy? Myself, I am a partial preterist. I believe that most of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century. The only things now to be finished are the worldwide preaching, discipling of the nations, and the Second Coming of Christ at which time He will deliver the Kingdom up to God the Father.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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