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Thread: The Sabbath

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Of course not! In loving God with all my heart, soul, and mind....and loving my neighbor as myself I am keeping all the Law and the prophets through Christ. It seems pretty clear what Jesus was saying.
    I agree.

    I have a question for you. What do you think is required in keeping the Sabbath Holy?
    Doing His will and not doing my own. See Nehemiah 13 or:

    Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

    Can we do work on the Sabbath?
    Sure. Is your job something that honors God and is necessary for the glorification of His kingdom? Is it necessary for public safety? Are you a pastor? Cop? Fireman? Doctor?

    I'm a landscape designer by profession. My work is not necessary on the sabbath. I have gone to classes on the sabbath to further my profession when those classes were only on the sabbath.

    Can we cook meals on the Sabbath?
    You bet.

    Can we drive our cars on the Sabbath? ect. ect. ect.
    People rode horses and donkey's on the sabbath. Our modern horses are our cars. I can tell you if I didn't drive it would take me forever to get to the prison where I teach on the sabbath.

    The Jews have many restrictions and requirements for Sabbath keeping, do any of those apply to Christians?
    Many of those laws and rules are the invention of the mind of man and are the tradition of men. See Matthew 15.

    God is looking for hearts that desire to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Maybe of the rules, and regulations of the Talmud are indeed not from that type of heart.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Richard, how can you claim to be part of the 'new covenant' if you don't know who the 'new covenant' was offered to?
    What makes you think I don't know who it was offered to?

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    The Ten Commandments were never given to the whole human race.
    So then the human race has an out and an excuse? Is Hitler off the hook? Pol Pot? Stalin?
    So you think God gave the Ten Commandments to the American Indians and the Chinese? Do you have a record of this or did you just make it up?

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    They were the "rider" that God added to the covenant he made with Abraham because of the transgressions of Israel who were not living by the faith of their father Abraham.
    Richard the law that was added was the Mosaic law and not the ten commandments. The law was added "because" of transgression.
    The Ten Commandments are the core of the Mosaic Covenant:

    Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

    See that? The Words of the Covenant = The Ten Commandments

    God did not make this covenant with all humanity. So I don't understand why you think that everyone is supposed to obey the covenant God made with Israel.

    And yes, the Law was added because of transgression. I've said that many times now. That is why the law was added - because Israel was not living according to the faith of their father Abraham.

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Abraham lived by faith and that was counted unto him for righteousness. The law was added because of transgressions - Israel was not living by the faith of Abraham. Did God need to command Abraham to refrain from having other gods? No! Abraham believed God an it was counted unto him for righteousness. Did God have to command Abraham to refrain from making idols? NO! But he did have to command Israel on those matters because they had not the faith of their father Abraham.
    The Bible tells us very little about the conversations that God had with Abraham Richard. I have little trouble believing that God verbally instructed Abraham with what God's law was and what His requirements were.

    How else do you explain that Joseph knew that adultery was sin? Lucky guess?
    Well, you can believe what you want, but if you want to convince me you will need to show me where it is written in Scripture.

    I think you missed my point. Abraham lived by faith so he did not need the law to guide him. That is the purpose of the law:
    Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    It seems like you think that we are still under the law. The Bible says we are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    You seem to think that Christians are supposed to be looking to the Law rather than to Faith in God. The Law never justifies, but Faith does. Life comes only through faith. This is the Gospel.
    Rcihard, the two go had in hand do they not? For example, if a man says he's converted and a child of God and consistently asks contrary to his profession then can we not deduce that he isn't converted?
    Absolutely not! The "Law" and the "Gospel" do NOT go "hand in hand." The Gospel freed us from the curse of the law. This is absolutely fundamental to the NT. There is no law that "gives life." Life is from God through Faith. The law brings death.

    Basically, it seems you are saying that Life (Gospel) and Death (Law) go "hand in hand" when in fact they are opposites and contrary to each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Richard, is circumcision part of the ten commandments? If so, which one? 1st, 5th, 7th?
    I do not understand why you elevate the ten commandments above all the other commands God gave in the OT law.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    Can we do work on the Sabbath?
    Sure. Is your job something that honors God and is necessary for the glorification of His kingdom? Is it necessary for public safety? Are you a pastor? Cop? Fireman? Doctor?

    I'm a landscape designer by profession. My work is not necessary on the sabbath. I have gone to classes on the sabbath to further my profession when those classes were only on the sabbath.
    What? I am absolutely confused now. Remember the guy who was executed because he picked up a few sticks on the sabbath? If the sabbath command says anything, it says NO WORK. How can you say we can work on the sabbath?

    You really lost me here. You seem to be directly contradicting one the most direct and explicit commands in the entire Bible. Please explain.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    I agree.

    Doing His will and not doing my own. See Nehemiah 13 or:

    Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
    I have a question for you. What do you think is required in keeping the Sabbath Holy? Can we do work on the Sabbath?
    Sure. Is your job something that honors God and is necessary for the glorification of His kingdom? Is it necessary for public safety? Are you a pastor? Cop? Fireman? Doctor?

    I'm a landscape designer by profession. My work is not necessary on the sabbath. I have gone to classes on the sabbath to further my profession when those classes were only on the sabbath.

    You bet.

    People rode horses and donkey's on the sabbath. Our modern horses are our cars. I can tell you if I didn't drive it would take me forever to get to the prison where I teach on the sabbath.

    Many of those laws and rules are the invention of the mind of man and are the tradition of men. See Matthew 15.

    God is looking for hearts that desire to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Maybe of the rules, and regulations of the Talmud are indeed not from that type of heart.
    Now you've got me totally confused by what you mean by setting the Sabbath apart from other days, if a person can do anything they want as long as they think it is honoring God on the Sabbath. That surely wasn't the case under the Old Covenant Law. If a man forgot to gather wood before the Sabbath so he could cook a meal on the Sabbath, he was out of luck....no exceptions.

    So now my question is, if one can pretty much do what they want on the Sabbath as long as they feel it is honoring God, then what is different about the Sabbath than any other day in a Christians life? Shouldn't we honor God in all we do every day?

    Rose
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    What makes you think I don't know who it was offered to?
    Your comments and questions. Like this one, "Where do you read that the "law" was promised only to Israel and Judah? "

    So you think God gave the Ten Commandments to the American Indians and the Chinese?
    Yes.


    Do you have a record of this or did you just make it up?
    Romans 2.

    Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


    The Ten Commandments are the core of the Mosaic Covenant:

    Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

    See that? The Words of the Covenant = The Ten Commandments
    Yes Richard I see that.

    Let me see if I can write this so you'll understand this a little better. The words of the covenant were indeed the Ten Commandments. The one's written on stone. You see that Richard where "he (God) wrote upon the tables?" Now, in a contract Richard what is used as a "witness against" your agreement to perform the provisions of that contract? In modern times we use our signature. In the days of the COI that would have been impractical.

    So what did God use? He used the "book of the law."

    One set was kept "inside" the Ark (that's a point that should not be lost) and one was kept on the outside of the Ark as a witness against all that the COI promised that the would do.

    Deu 31:24 ¶ And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.


    Exd 19:7 ¶ And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. Exd 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

    God did not make this covenant with all humanity. So I don't understand why you think that everyone is supposed to obey the covenant God made with Israel.
    Richard, Israel is symbolic of the world of the saved. The world is symbolic of the unsaved. If the unsaved want to be saved and enter into Israel, who's King is Christ, the have to be willing to obey the law of that nation.

    So, if a Kenyan thief wants to join up with Christ he can't change his nature without Christ. Once that Kenyan thief decides to become a Christian he becomes a "fellowcitizen" with the saints. And adopted son of Abraham. He becomes a son of God, and Israelite.

    And yes, the Law was added because of transgression. I've said that many times now. That is why the law was added - because Israel was not living according to the faith of their father Abraham.
    Richard, I don't think you understand the delineation of the two sets of law.

    Well, you can believe what you want, but if you want to convince me you will need to show me where it is written in Scripture.
    How then do you answer this question: How else do you explain that Joseph knew that adultery was sin? Lucky guess?
    I think you missed my point. Abraham lived by faith so he did not need the law to guide him. That is the purpose of the law:
    Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    It seems like you think that we are still under the law. The Bible says we are not.
    What law did Abraham follow and does the fact that the law (the ten commandments) shows us our tremendous need for salvation through Christ make null and void that law?

    For example, as a Christian do you need a speed limit sign in front of a school to tell you not to drive 100 MPH when kids are present? Of course not you say. Do you need a law tattooed on you in some way to tell you not to steal? Of course not. In either case have the laws been removed? Nope.

    Absolutely not! The "Law" and the "Gospel" do NOT go "hand in hand."
    Richard, are you sure? If a man abides with Christ does he become converted or does he still break the law?

    The Gospel freed us from the curse of the law.
    The curse of the law is death, so the converted have the promise of eternal life. What if someone says they are coverted but don't act like it? Do they have the promise of eternal life? Oh, maybe I should ask. Are you a Calvinist, a "once saved always saved" kinda guy?

    This is absolutely fundamental to the NT. There is no law that "gives life." Life is from God through Faith. The law brings death.
    That right. The law brings death. An unrepentant adulterer will die the eternal death. However, is a supposed Christian convert free to risk his eternal salvation on the notion that he can continue in adultery?

    Basically, it seems you are saying that Life (Gospel) and Death (Law) go "hand in hand" when in fact they are opposites and contrary to each other.
    Nope Richard. What I'm saying is the Gospel of Jesus Christ leads to obedience to the law of God.

    I do not understand why you elevate the ten commandments above all the other commands God gave in the OT law.
    That is abundantly evident!

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    What? I am absolutely confused now. Remember the guy who was executed because he picked up a few sticks on the sabbath?
    I do.

    If the sabbath command says anything, it says NO WORK. How can you say we can work on the sabbath?
    The purpose of the sabbath allows man to do the will of God on the sabbath. For example, if a fireman has to work on the sabbath is that not a job that helps other people? Jesus taught it very plainly.

    Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

    You really lost me here.
    I can tell.

    You seem to be directly contradicting one the most direct and explicit commands in the entire Bible. Please explain.
    Would that be opposed to your completely teaching that we don't have to keep any of God's laws?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Now you've got me totally confused by what you mean by setting the Sabbath apart from other days, if a person can do anything they want as long as they think it is honoring God on the Sabbath.
    Sorry, not looking to confuse you.

    That surely wasn't the case under the Old Covenant Law. If a man forgot to gather wood before the Sabbath so he could cook a meal on the Sabbath, he was out of luck....no exceptions.
    That's right.

    So now my question is, if one can pretty much do what they want on the Sabbath as long as they feel it is honoring God, then what is different about the Sabbath than any other day in a Christians life?
    This is something that each individual Christian must work out for themselves. If a Christian truly believes that they can work on the sabbath and are convinced in their own mind then that's on them and it is not me to judge. If you'll notice I have made no judgments about what other people do on the sabbath.

    Shouldn't we honor God in all we do every day?
    Yep.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Would that be opposed to your completely teaching that we don't have to keep any of God's laws?
    I never said that or anything like that. I said that the Law of God is love, and if we love then we fulfill the law. I say that because that is what the Bible says:

    Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

    Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I never said that or anything like that. I said that the Law of God is love, and if we love then we fulfill the law. I say that because that is what the Bible says:

    Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

    Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    Richard, you have suggested that we no longer have to keep the ten commandments. I suspect this stems from two major misconceptions. That the ten commandments are the same thing as the Mosaic law and because most have to find a way to nullify the sabbath commandment and suggest that it doesn't apply to them. Understood, I've seen the argument so many times it make my eyes swim.

    What you have simply done Richard is suggest that the 'new covenant' is based on obeying only two provisions of the 'old covenant' - we are told that all the law hangs on these two principles, they always have and always will.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Richard, you have suggested that we no longer have to keep the ten commandments. I suspect this stems from two major misconceptions. That the ten commandments are the same thing as the Mosaic law and because most have to find a way to nullify the sabbath commandment and suggest that it doesn't apply to them. Understood, I've seen the argument so many times it make my eyes swim.

    What you have simply done Richard is suggest that the 'new covenant' is based on obeying only two provisions of the 'old covenant' - we are told that all the law hangs on these two principles, they always have and always will.
    You are still missing my point. I never said that the new covenant is based on obeying only two provisions of the OT. I very clearly stated that the Law of God is LOVE and if we love then we fulfill the law, because that is what the Bible says.

    It seems that you think we are supposed to pick and choose which bits and pieces of the OT we obey and which we ignore. You have admitted that you don't really keep the sabbath (you work if you feel like it) and that you don't have to be circumcised. Those are the two primary commandments that must be fulfilled in God's OT law.

    So if you don't really keep the commandments, why do you keep saying that we must keep the commandments?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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