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Thread: The Sabbath

  1. #21
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    Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    What law was Jesus referring to here?

    Now, if it was possible for God to alter the words that had proceeded from His mouth after the death of Christ why did Jesus have to die in the first place? Couldn't God just have easily removed His law so that Jesus wouldn't have to die?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    That's very interesting. I wonder, do you see that the candlestick represents Jesus? Also, what correlation do you see with that and the fact that the Tanakh references that we will be keeping the sabbath in heaven?
    Yes - the Menorah represents the Light of God's Word. It represents both to the written Word of God (Bible) and the living Word of God (Christ).

    It seems to me that the OT references to keeping the OT law are symbolic of the greater law that is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    If the fourth commandments was a type or a shadow that pointed to the work of Christ how then were the other commandments pointing to Christ? For example what did the 10th commandments point to that Christ would fulfill? The 6th? 9th? If we suggest that the fourth commandments pointed to something to be fulfilled by Jesus wouldn't it be logical to assume the other commandments did as well?
    That's an excellent question! The first thing to note is that each commandment has its own character. The Fourth Commandment is very different than say the 6th. God prohibited murder in Genesis 9 before there was any Israel. But the 4th commandment was given specifically to Israel as a SIGN.
    KJV Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
    The 4th commandment is entirely different than the others. It was given between God and OT Israel. Are you are member of Israel? Are you under the first Covenant? If not, then why do you think this command applies to you?

    The fact that the 4th commandment was a sign coheres with my understanding that it signifies our rest in Christ.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Well, let's say we do a little exegesis and find out for sure.

    Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work [therein]: it [is] the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

    The sabbath was called "an Holy (sanctified) convocation." What exactly is a convocation? The word convocation is the Hebrew word miqra' and it means: something called out, i.e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:--assembly, calling, convocation, reading. Thus we can say fairly certainly that a convocation was a "calling out."

    Now, let's fast forward 2,000 years. The Greek word to describe the "church," that is the body of believers in Jesus Christ is ekklesia and it just so happens it means the exact same thing! It means "a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both)."

    Therefore we can conclude that a convocation and a church mean the same thing. Both are called "Holy" in the Bible and holy means set apart or sanctified. We are exhorted by Paul that as a church we should not to forsake the assembling of one another.

    Hbr 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

    Clearly we see it was meant to be a time of gathering.

    Richard, unfortunately that would be making the assumption that Sunday keepers are somehow correct yet the Bible never calls Sunday a gathering day, only the seventh-day.
    Excellent study RND!

    You are correct that the sabbath was associated with a "calling out" (holy convocation) in that one verse. But did you note that you quoted the one and only verse that calls the seventh day sabbath a "holy convocation"?

    Consider the stats: The word "sabbath" or "sabbaths" occur 172 times in the Bible. It is called a "holy convocation" in one verse. What is God telling us in His Holy Word? What has he commanded concerning the sabbath? I do not know of any verse that that commands the Sabbath day as a "day of gathering for worship." Did God ever give us any commands about what we are supposed to do on the sabbath? Yes, he said "NO WORK." Did he give any other command? Did he command Israel to gather together on that day? Did he command Israel to worship on that day? Did he give any command to Christians concerning the Sabbath?

    I think it is important to explain how I interpret the Bible. I follow something I call the Fundamental Principle of Biblical Hermeneutics:
    Fundamental Principle of Biblical Hermeneutics


    Anything taught as doctrine must be supported by at least two or three clear and unambiguous Biblical passages. The main things are the plain things. We can be certain that if God did not establish a teaching with two or three solid witnesses in Scripture then He did not intend for us to teach it as Biblical truth. We know this because God has given us this principle in a way that follows this principle, that is, He repeated it in both the Old and the New Testaments:
    • Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
    • Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
    • 2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
    This principle is fundamental not only to Biblical Hermeneutics, but to Epistimology in general. How do we know anything? When it is confirmed and corroborated by a variety of witnesses. This is true whether studying the Bible or Biology. Application of this rule immediately clears away the debris accumulated from centuries of unfounded speculations and lays bare the bedrock of the true Biblical doctrines of Eschatology.
    It seems clear to me that God has not commanded that Christians "keep the literal seventh day sabbath" - He most certainly has not made it clear in His Word.

    But maybe I'm wrong and you will help me understand why. And that's why this conversation is so valuable.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Yes - the Menorah represents the Light of God's Word. It represents both to the written Word of God (Bible) and the living Word of God (Christ).
    Then it represents Jesus only since Jesus is the Living word.

    It seems to me that the OT references to keeping the OT law are symbolic of the greater law that is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
    What is the "the greater law that is written on our hearts"? Also, what do you make of the fact that that law was only promised to Israel and Judah.


    That's an excellent question! The first thing to note is that each commandment has its own character. The Fourth Commandment is very different than say the 6th. God prohibited murder in Genesis 9 before there was any Israel. But the 4th commandment was given specifically to Israel as a SIGN.
    KJV Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
    If the 4th commandment was given just to Israel why did God require strangers and sojourners to Israel to keep it and observe it?

    The 4th commandment is entirely different than the others. It was given between God and OT Israel. Are you are member of Israel?
    As a matter of fact I am indeed an adopted member of the nation of Israel who King is Jesus Christ.

    Are you under the first Covenant? If not, then why do you think this command applies to you?
    Richard, I have to note that I am very surprised that you didn't answer my question. That said I will be glad to answer yours.

    The first covenant required a man that sinned to kill a lamb, catch it's blood in a vessel and have the daily priests sprinkle that blood in the tabernacle. That covenant has been done away with. What hasn't changed is sin against God's law. Now when a man sins he can go directly to the throneroom of grace throught the blood of the Lamb who is now our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

    The fact that the 4th commandment was a sign coheres with my understanding that it signifies our rest in Christ.
    That seems very contradictory then to me in that case. For on one hand you say the sabbath was a sign given to Israel (you are aware how a stranger became like one homeborn right?) and yet you suggest somehow that it was symbolic of the rest gentiles have in Jesus, yet it wasn't a sign for the gentiles? Very confusing. What, and more specifically where, is that sign that the sabbath was for Israel transferred to become a symbol for the gentiles rest in Jesus?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    What law was Jesus referring to here?

    Now, if it was possible for God to alter the words that had proceeded from His mouth after the death of Christ why did Jesus have to die in the first place? Couldn't God just have easily removed His law so that Jesus wouldn't have to die?
    Hi RND

    I've been following yours and Richards discussion on the Sabbath, and something came to mind concerning following the Law and the Prophets. Remember when Jesus answered the question about which was the greatest commandment....


    Matt.22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    ....His answer was that ALL the Law and the Prophets hang upon keeping the First and Greatest commandment, and that is to Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind....and the second which is to love your neighbor as yourself.

    What that tells me, is that in loving God and His Son Jesus Christ ALL is fulfilled!

    God Bless

    Rose
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    It has nothing to do with the "day of worship" since that was never part of the command in the first place.
    That actually true, the day itself has no significance. It has everything with obedience and has we have seen in many parts of the Bible God equates obedience with faith.
    The "day" had plenty of significance because it was an essential aspect of the command. But since God Himself did not include the idea of "worship" in the command, I don't feel that I should add it.

    Of course, the verse that speaks of the sabbath as a "holy convocation" implies that "gathering" was associated with the command, and this is confirmed by the examples of the NT. But can we then infer that Christians are commanded to gather on the sabbath? If so, then it must not be very important to God since He never gave us any clear and unambiguous command like that.

    And most importantly, we need to remember that the sabbath command was a sign between God and Israel under the First Covenant. But that covenant ended with the death of the Testator (Christ) and we are not bound by laws of circumcision and sabbath and all that. And this brings up the essential question. You have emphasized the idea that we are supposed to keep all the commandments of God. But I don't know what commandments you mean. Are you saying that Christians are supposed to keep all the commandments that God gave to OT Israel? What then of the New Covenant? Are we supposed to circumcise? Paul said no. Are we to sacrifice animals? And why do you say the law still stands when Hebrews say that there was a change in the law?

    As you can see, there are many problems with the idea that Christians are supposed to keep the laws given to Israel under the first covenant.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Excellent study RND!

    You are correct that the sabbath was associated with a "calling out" (holy convocation) in that one verse. But did you note that you quoted the one and only verse that calls the seventh day sabbath a "holy convocation"?
    Does that matter?

    Consider the stats: The word "sabbath" or "sabbaths" occur 172 times in the Bible. It is called a "holy convocation" in one verse. What is God telling us in His Holy Word?
    That the sabbath is a "Holy" convocation?

    What has he commanded concerning the sabbath? I do not know of any verse that that commands the Sabbath day as a "day of gathering for worship."
    It was a day of gathering. What were all the other days of gathering. For example, was the feast of tabernacles ever called a "worship" day?

    Did God ever give us any commands about what we are supposed to do on the sabbath? Yes, he said "NO WORK." Did he give any other command? Did he command Israel to gather together on that day?
    Yes, He commanded Israel to gather on the sabbath.

    Did he command Israel to worship on that day?
    Did He command worship on any other feast day or was it just assumed?

    Did he give any command to Christians concerning the Sabbath?
    Sure, just as He did Israel. Did God rescind His commandment for the sabbath in the NT anywhere?
    I think it is important to explain how I interpret the Bible. I follow something I call the Fundamental Principle of Biblical Hermeneutics:
    Fundamental Principle of Biblical Hermeneutics


    Anything taught as doctrine must be supported by at least two or three clear and unambiguous Biblical passages. The main things are the plain things. We can be certain that if God did not establish a teaching with two or three solid witnesses in Scripture then He did not intend for us to teach it as Biblical truth. We know this because God has given us this principle in a way that follows this principle, that is, He repeated it in both the Old and the New Testaments:
    • Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
    • Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
    • 2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
    This principle is fundamental not only to Biblical Hermeneutics, but to Epistimology in general. How do we know anything? When it is confirmed and corroborated by a variety of witnesses. This is true whether studying the Bible or Biology. Application of this rule immediately clears away the debris accumulated from centuries of unfounded speculations and lays bare the bedrock of the true Biblical doctrines of Eschatology.
    Obviously I do not follow such a restrictive view of the scriptures because that doesn't account for allowing the Holy Spirit to speak for us.

    For example in Leviticus every sabbath the shewbread was to be eaten in the "Holy" place.

    Lev 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, [being taken] from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant. Lev 24:9 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons'; and they shall eat it in the holy place: for it [is] most holy unto him of the offerings of the LORD made by fire by a perpetual statute.

    What did the shewbread represent? It represented the word of God, Jesus. Does not the Bible refer to each of us Christians as a Royal priesthood and lively stones in the sanctuary?

    Can we not take it then that this was symbolic of ingesting the word of God on the sabbath day? Limited views as what one would consider proper hermeneutics then makes it impossible to seek further understanding from other verses that are tied together.

    It seems clear to me that God has not commanded that Christians "keep the literal seventh day sabbath" - He most certainly has not made it clear in His Word.
    Conversely Richard you would then have to offer evidence that God somehow rescinded the fourth commandment.

    God said, "Remember the sabbath day to keep it Holy...." Where does God say, "Forget the sabbath it's no longer Holy?"

    What I don't get is how one can insist that something God Himself set apart and made holy is no longer set apart and made holy. If you follow the basic logic of your hermeneutics then obviously you would have to have some examples of God changing the sanctity of the sabbath.

    But maybe I'm wrong and you will help me understand why. And that's why this conversation is so valuable.
    Wrong? Misinformed. The sabbath is a sanctified by God Himself and there is no where that I know of in scripture where the sanctification has been changed or rescinded. For example, Jesus says, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

    Is this statement that Jesus made untrue? Was it changed? When? Where?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Yes - the Menorah represents the Light of God's Word. It represents both to the written Word of God (Bible) and the living Word of God (Christ).
    Then it represents Jesus only since Jesus is the Living word.
    How does that follow? Why can it not represent both Jesus as the Living Word and Scripture as the Written Word?

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    What is the "the greater law that is written on our hearts"? Also, what do you make of the fact that that law was only promised to Israel and Judah.
    The Law of the Spirit that is written in our hearts.

    Where do you read that the "law" was promised only to Israel and Judah?


    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    If the 4th commandment was given just to Israel why did God require strangers and sojourners to Israel to keep it and observe it?
    Because they were living with Israel. He didn't command all humanity to keep the sabbath.

    I think this exemplifies a fundamental misunderstanding about the Ten Commandments. They were given as the requirements of the covenant that God made with Israel. Granted, they contain universal moral laws, and those laws apply to everyone, but that does not mean that the Ten Commandments per se apply to everyone. They were conditions added to the original covenant God made with Abraham because the COI were not living by the faith of their father Abraham.

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    The 4th commandment is entirely different than the others. It was given between God and OT Israel. Are you are member of Israel?
    As a matter of fact I am indeed an adopted member of the nation of Israel who King is Jesus Christ.
    Excellent! So am I! But do you understand the difference between literal Israel under the First Covenant and the New Israel under the New Covenant?

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Are you under the first Covenant? If not, then why do you think this command applies to you?
    Richard, I have to note that I am very surprised that you didn't answer my question. That said I will be glad to answer yours.


    What question did I miss? I went back and looked and didn't see anything that I failed to answer. Please repeat the question and I would be happy answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    The first covenant required a man that sinned to kill a lamb, catch it's blood in a vessel and have the daily priests sprinkle that blood in the tabernacle. That covenant has been done away with. What hasn't changed is sin against God's law. Now when a man sins he can go directly to the throneroom of grace throught the blood of the Lamb who is now our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary.
    I agree. But where do you get the idea that CHirstians under the New Covenant are supposed to follow the commands given to Israel under the Old Covenant? Paul explicitly says that we do not need to be circumcised because we ARE the circumcision. Does this not show that the OT law has been elevated to a much higher spiritual meaning?

    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    The fact that the 4th commandment was a sign coheres with my understanding that it signifies our rest in Christ.
    That seems very contradictory then to me in that case. For on one hand you say the sabbath was a sign given to Israel (you are aware how a stranger became like one homeborn right?) and yet you suggest somehow that it was symbolic of the rest gentiles have in Jesus, yet it wasn't a sign for the gentiles? Very confusing. What, and more specifically where, is that sign that the sabbath was for Israel transferred to become a symbol for the gentiles rest in Jesus?
    There are no "Jews" or "gentiles" in Christ. We all rest in Christ.

    I don't understand the reason for the confusion. Paul made it clear that the OT was written to us for examples (1 Cor 10) - that is TYPES and shadows. Christ was the final sacrifice. There is no more Old Covenant. The TRUE TEMPLE has come. The reality has replaced the shadows.

    I think this is a great conversation. We'd probably do well to find the FOUNDATION of our differences so we can discern the truth. It looks like we need to clarify our understanding of the relation between the old and new covenants. It seems that you are saying that we are still bound by the law.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi RND

    I've been following yours and Richards discussion on the Sabbath, and something came to mind concerning following the Law and the Prophets. Remember when Jesus answered the question about which was the greatest commandment....


    Matt.22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    I remember.


    ....His answer was that ALL the Law and the Prophets hang upon keeping the First and Greatest commandment, and that is to Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind....and the second which is to love your neighbor as yourself.

    What that tells me, is that in loving God and His Son Jesus Christ ALL is fulfilled!
    Rose, are you suggesting that because Jesus fulfilled the law and the testimony that pointed to Him I am somehow not required to do the same? In other words since Jesus fulfilled the law I no longer am required to Love God or my neighbors?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RND View Post
    Conversely Richard you would then have to offer evidence that God somehow rescinded the fourth commandment.
    You can not rescind something that was not given. God never gave the sabbath command as a part of the New Covenant, so there was nothing to rescind.

    Let's try to narrow this conversation down to the essential points of difference so we don't end up going in circles (most people get tired of that pretty fast).

    If you believe that God commands Christians to keep the sabbath, then it seems you must also believe that God commands Christians to be circumcised. Is that correct? If not, then why do you say we must keep one OT command but not another?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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