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Thread: SHECHEM

  1. #41
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    Now, to the witness of the stars part:

    The seven stars in the hand of Christ as described by John in Revelation have often been associated in the past with the constellation of the Pleiades, also known simply as the "SEVEN STARS" and so called in Amos.

    Am 5:8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:

    In two other OT verses the AV translates it by name, but all three are the Hebrew "Kymah". The seven stars are mentioned 4 times in the NT for a total of SEVEN.

    Over the years I have tried to collect illustrations from ancient cultures of the Pleiades. Invariably they are shown in the "6 around 1" pattern like the configuration of the logos star, even though the actual configuration that we see is more like a tiny "dipper" and we only see SIX.
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    I also have a family Bible which is well over 100 years old and has hundreds of hand drawn illustrations in the front, one of which is of John's vision of Christ with the seven stars in his right hand.....again, they are arranged in the same "6 around 1" pattern like the logos star. All cultures, almost without exception, have a tradition of a "missing" star from the Pleiades. The Hebrew version relates it directly to the flood of Noah. Others are similar in some way, or at least associated with water, doves, or a tragedy of some sort.......almost all ALSO connect the constellation with the time around the end of October/first of Nov. the traditional time of the flood.

    The Pleiades constellation sits on the SHOULDER of Taurus the Bull. The head and horns of this bull are made up of SEVEN STARS also. They are today usually called the HYADES. E. Maunder in his book "The astronomy of the Bible" contends that the biblical mezzeroth probably dates to at least 2700 BC or before, for which he gives numerous proofs and would put the sign of Taurus at the "head" of the year.......and correlates this to Joseph thus being given this blessing as he was given the birthright.

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    De 33:13-17 And of Joseph he said..............His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.


    See Bullinger:http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/chap31.htm

    The word translated here "unicorn" is said by Gesenius and others to probably be a wild bull, now extinct, called in the Hebrew the Reem. So we have two kinds of bulls here........In any case the Hebrew word for bullock "shuwr" is in the Aramaic "Touwr" and in the Greek "Tauros", from which we get the constellation name Taurus. The Hebrew and Aramaic words are both from a root which means to "travel about", "journey", which fits well with the verse above.

    The aramaic form of the word closest to the constellation name, is also found seven times in the OT and only in the plural form Taurin, with a value of 666, the same as the word for DIASPORA...the dispersed in the NT verse in I Peter 1:1. Also, of course connected with the holy of holies.

    The bull himself would be symbolic (according to Bullinger and others) of Christ coming in judgment and his head and horns, Joseph. The Jews between his shoulders (Benjamin was joined to Judah in the S. Kingdom) and we have the verse:
    De 33:12 And of Benjamin he said, The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by him; and the LORD shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders.

    The Hebrew word for the Pleiades (Kimah) has a value of 75 = JEWS
    Taurin = 666 = Diaspora

    So together the two constellations would be JEWS (on the shoulder of Taurus, i.e. Pleiades) and Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh the bulls head & horns, Taurin) ??????????????


    These are all just things I am pondering..........sorry if it seems disjointed as so do my thoughts..................
    Last edited by yinonyavo; 07-20-2007 at 12:33 PM.

  2. #42
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    Hello to all participants in this thread

    Just want to let you all know, I started a new thread on one of the topics that has come up on this thread, Joshua's stone of witness at Shechem. It seems like this thread has branched off in other directions, and Joshua's stone of witness is a whole topic in itself, the connection being its place at Shechem.

    The whole Shechem topic is very interesting, and I've been enjoying reading the many posts with all the ideas that have been presented here.

    Now theres one more thread open for ideas

    Rose

  3. #43
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    Thanks Rose. I have found the Shechem topic so vast that it does seem to go in lots of directions. Thats why I think I really wanted to get a lot of input from others. Maybe that's a good idea...to start some splinter threads on different aspects..........then it doesn't get so long also!!

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Stephen, I agree with you that we - the Church - Catholics and Christians - ARE the 10 LOST TRIBES - without a doubt -
    Hi White,

    Do you have any evidence for that assertion? If so, please share it with us. And could you please explain who you think the Gentiles are? If the Catholics and Christians are "without a doubt" the "10 LOST TRIBES" then to whom was Paul an Apostle? He never said anything like "seeing ye ... judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the 10 LOST TRIBES!"

    NO! That's not what the Bible says, and that's not what Paul did!

    In the Bible, Paul said "Lo, we turn to the Gentiles." Acts 13:46 He was the Apostle to the Gentiles, and the people now known as Catholics and Christians are mostly GENTILES. Where did you get this idea that the Catholics and the Christians are the "10 Lost tribes"?

    If there is anything we can know "without a doubt" it is that the Catholics and Christians, while containing a small remnant of the ten lost tribes, consist in the overwhelming majority of Gentiles.

    Richard

  5. #45
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    Consider the following verse:

    Joh 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

    διασπορά Transliteration diaspora - Thayer's Lexicon states this is used only of Israelites or Christian Israelites who are scattered. Note they are called GENTILES by the disciples in this verse. Actually the Greek word here is Helen, meaning the Greeks, which the Jews equated with Gentiles.

    JOHN CALVIN on this verse:
    Will he go to the dispersion of the Greeks? It is well known that the Jews gave the name of Greeks to all nations beyond the sea; but they do not mean that Christ will go to the uncircumcised nations, but to the Jews, who were dispersed through the various countries of the world. For the word dispersion would not apply to those who are natives of the place, and who inhabit their native soil, but applies well to the Jews, who were fugitives and exiles. Thus Peter inscribes his First Epistle parepidhmoiv diasporav to the strangers of the dispersion, that is, to the strangers who are scattered {1} through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (#1Pe 1:1); and James salutes the twelve tribes en th diaspora, in the dispersion, that is, scattered abroad, (#Jas 1:1). The meaning of the words therefore is, "Will he cross the sea, to go to Jews who dwell in a world unknown to us?"

    CLARK's COMMENTARY: Verse 35. The dispersed among the Gentiles Or Greeks. By the dispersed, are meant here the Jews who were scattered through various parts of that empire which Alexander the Great had founded, in Greece, Syria, Egypt, and Asia Minor, where the Greek language was used, and where the Jewish Scriptures in the Greek version of the Septuagint were read. Others suppose that the Gentiles themselves are meant—others, that the ten tribes which had been long lost are here intended.

    GENEVA COMMENTARY: Literally, "to the dispersion of the Gentiles" or "Greeks", and under the name of the Greeks he refers to the Jews who were dispersed among the Gentiles.


    Both Peter and James call the scattered tribes by the same term "diaspora":
    Most orthodox commentators agree that literal Israelites are spoken of here. It is well documented that the 10 tribes were considered gentiles by the Jews living in Judea by the time of Christ. The Jews even reclaimed the name Israel for themselves, for the 10 tribes to which the name was given by Jacob were considered by them to be cut off from God.


    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus <2424> Christ , to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad <1290>, greeting.
    1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,to the strangers <3927> scattered <1290> throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia....


    MATTHEW HENRY: II. The persons to whom this epistle was addressed, and they are described,
    1. By their external condition—Strangers dispersed throughout Pontus, Galatia, &c. They were chiefly Jews, descended (as Dr. Prideaux thinks) from those Jews who were translated from Babylon, by order of Antiochus king of Syria, about two hundred years before the coming of Christ, and placed in the cities of Asia Minor. It is very likely that our apostle had been among them, and converted them, being the apostle of the circumcision, and that he afterwards wrote this epistle to them from Babylon, where multitudes of the Jewish nation then resided. At present, their circumstances were poor and afflicted.

    Peter goes on to quote from Hosea's prophesy to the 10 tribes that they would become "not a people" and then some day God would again make them "a people". (I Pet 2:10)

    CALVIN:Which in time past were not a people. He brings for confirmation a passage from Hosea, and well accommodates it to his own purpose. For Hosea, after having in God’s name declared that the Jews were repudiated, gives them a hope of a future restoration. Peter reminds us that this was fulfilled in his own age; for the Jews were scattered here and there, as the torn members of a body; nay, they seemed to be no longer God’s people, no worship remained among them, they were become entangled in the corruptions of the heathens; it could not then be said otherwise of them, but that they were repudiated by the Lord. But when they are gathered in Christ, from no people they really become the people of God. Paul, in #Ro 9:26, applies also this prophecy to the Gentiles, and not without reason; for from the time the Lord’s covenant was broken, from which alone the Jews derived their superiority, they were put on a level with the Gentiles. It hence follows, that what God had promised, to make a people of no people, belongs in common to both.

    Matthew POOLE:Ver. 10. Which in time past were not a people; either, were not a people, i.e. a formed state, or commonwealth, being dispersed in several countries, among other people, and not worth the name of a people: or, were not the people of God, (supplying God out of the opposite clause), since he had given them a bill of divorce, and said Lo-ammi and Lo-ruhamah to them, #Ho 1:1-11. These were the Jews of the dispersion, and such as had not returned out of the Babylonish captivity, together with many of other tribes mixed with them, who, before their conversion to Christ, seemed cut off from the body of that people, had no solemn worship of God among them, and were tainted with the corruptions of the heathen, with whom they conversed.

    There are also many commentators who ascribe the prophesy of Hosea only to the Gentiles...........that even thought the prophesy was spoken to Ephraim/Israel, it was really meant for the Gentiles who would one day turn to Christ. Certainly that is a possibility....it is also possible that both were meant, but to say that it is a stretch to say God through Hosea meant EXACTLY what he said....that Ephraim and the 10 tribes would literally become "not a people" by mixing with the nations, and then God would again make their descendants, LITERALLY, his people through the Gospel, is not a fair criticism.........Certainly, I think, it seems reasonable to consider that God meant EXACTLY what he said. I am not dogmatic about either view, but consider that either way or both.......the type is still important and fruitful to study. God was emphatic about gathering a people to himself from EVERY NATION, so either way, no nation is excluded, and if God chose to literally mix the blood of Israel with all nations so that all his promises would be fulfilled literally....well then praise God!

  6. #46
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    Putting aside the question of the literal or spiritual aspect of Ephraim in the church, etc................I would like to keep the thread focused on SHECHEM and the promise of "SHECHEM ACHAD" (ONE CONSENT/SHOULDER) and the inheritance of the promises of the FIRSTHBORN which are fulfilled in the church (of whomever she is made up). We are the church of the FIRSTBORN, because we are in Christ, the FIRSTBORN of God. The inheritance of the church of the double portion of SHECHEM ACHAD, I think, can be seen in the following:

    We have been made one with Christ and each other:

    Ro 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

    ...in ONE ACCORD, found 7 times in Acts:
    Ac 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
    Ac 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    Ac 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
    Ac 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
    Ac 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch.
    Ac 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
    Ac 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

    ONE ACCORD=754
    I found in the new data base:
    Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy(=754); at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
    Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received(=754) and heard, and hold fast, and repent


    This ONENESS is the very prayer Christ prayed for us:

    Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


    And the ONENESS that is mystery of Christ:

    Eph 2:14-15 and 3:4-6 ..For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.......Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

  7. #47
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    Hi YinonYavo

    There are also many commentators who ascribe the prophesy of Hosea only to the Gentiles...........that even thought the prophesy was spoken to Ephraim/Israel, it was really meant for the Gentiles who would one day turn to Christ. Certainly that is a possibility....it is also possible that both were meant, but to say that it is a stretch to say God through Hosea meant EXACTLY what he said....that Ephraim and the 10 tribes would literally become "not a people" by mixing with the nations, and then God would again make their descendants, LITERALLY, his people through the Gospel, is not a fair criticism.........Certainly, I think, it seems reasonable to consider that God meant EXACTLY what he said. I am not dogmatic about either view, but consider that either way or both.......the type is still important and fruitful to study. God was emphatic about gathering a people to himself from EVERY NATION, so either way, no nation is excluded, and if God chose to literally mix the blood of Israel with all nations so that all his promises would be fulfilled literally....well then praise God!


    Well said, my feelings exactly

    I would like to keep the thread focused on SHECHEM and the promise of "SHECHEM ACHAD" (ONE CONSENT/SHOULDER) and the inheritance of the promises of the FIRSTHBORN which are fulfilled in the church (of whomever she is made up). We are the church of the FIRSTBORN, because we are in Christ, the FIRSTBORN of God. The inheritance of the church of the double portion of SHECHEM ACHAD.........
    I would like to focus first on "inheritance", there are a number of verses that speak of Israel & Jacob "God's people" as being God's inheritance. I'll just quote a few.

    Deut. 32:9 "For the Lord's portion is His people; Jacob is the place of His inheritance"
    Psalm 28:9 "Save your people, and bless Your inheritance;"
    Psalm 74:2 "The tribe of Your inheritance, which You have redeemed"
    Psalm 78:62 "He also gave His people over to the sword, and was furious with His inheritance"
    Psalm 78:71 " To shepherd Jacob His people,and Israel His inheritance."
    Isa. 19:25 "...."Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance."
    Jer. 51:19 "....And Israel is the tribe of His inheritance."

    The inheritance of God, being Israel & Jacob in the OT, has now included us, being adopted in as sons of God through Christ.

    In Ephesians 1:18 is says "...that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints."

    Which is clearly speaking of us "Christians" being His inheritance. His inheritance in the saints is: the continuance (thats us) of God's Firstborn, (Christ).

    Eph 2:14-15 and 3:4-6 ..For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.......Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    The extra portion that Christ received being the Firstborn of God, we as fellow heirs of the promises receive, and also share in His portion.

    The inheritance of the church of the double portion of SHECHEM ACHAD,
    Rose

  8. #48
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    Rose, I'm so glad you brought up that point. Christ too has an inheritance. We are his peculiar treasure, his crown of jewels. I like especially the verses:

    Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

    Isa 49:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

  9. #49
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    Yinonyavo,

    Isaiah 49:22 is exactly the verse for tonight - 9th AV - the saddest day in Jewish History - connect to www.aisha.com - great stories and history -
    because the Temple was destroyed on this day twice - 587BC and 70AD - but GOD has watchmen & watchwomen on the wall praying without ceasing for the LORD'S supernatural protection over HIS HOLY LAND and HIS PEOPLE - the 12 Tribes of Israel and all who put their trust in our LORD and SAVIOR Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - Jesus the Christ. Amen.
    Shalom,
    White

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    GOD has watchmen & watchwomen on the wall praying without ceasing for the LORD'S supernatural protection over HIS HOLY LAND and HIS PEOPLE - the 12 Tribes of Israel and all who put their trust in our LORD and SAVIOR Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - Jesus the Christ. Amen.
    Shalom,
    White
    What??? Are you saying that "God's People" is a group that includes unbelievers and Christ-deniers right along with "all who put their trust in our LORD and SAVIOR" Jesus Christ?

    How can you think that? First of all, the idea is completely incoherent, since there is no fellowship between light and darkness (2 Cor 6:14). And second, have you never read Romans 9? Your statement directly contradicts the plain teaching of the Bible:

    Romans 9:7-8 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
    There it is. The Bible explicitly states that being a "seed of Abraham" does NOT mean that one is a "child of God." Let me repeat: the Bible explicitly states that the unbelieving natural sons of Abraham (the 12 Tribes, as you put it) are NOT the children of God. They are "children of the flesh." They are not "God's People"

    I would be delighted if you could explain how you come to your very unorthodox and unbiblical conclusions. But somehow I don't think you will even try, because I have asked you at least a dozen very important questions in my efforts to discuss this with you, and you have ignored them all.

    Richard

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