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  1. #1
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    Josephus and Tacitus Record Angels Seen in the sky

    Just in case there are those who have never read Josephus, I wanted to post his account of the miraculous event which took place a few days after the Feasts.

    JOSPEHUS

    "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).
    And now the Roman Historian who wrote of the Roman/Jewish War:


    Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian

    "13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
    I found it quite interesting that this event occurred after the Feasts. I'm certain Brother LES would have some interesting contributions to this event. Please note that there was a great earth quake, and a huge majestic voice which stated, "LET US LEAVE HENCE (this place)!" And the Roman Historian recorded this as a departure of the gods.

    Thus, I find this to be the fulfillment of Paul's "Catching Up" to meet Christ in the air, at the last and final trumpet. For not long after this event, Jerusalem was destroyed. I have to do the math and determine the date this took place. But Josephus records that this event took place on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius Can anyone determine what Julian date this was?

    Brother LES:

    Anything significant about this event taking place after the Feasts?

    Joe

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Just in case there are those who have never read Josephus, I wanted to post his account of the miraculous event which took place a few days after the Feasts.



    And now the Roman Historian who wrote of the Roman/Jewish War:




    I found it quite interesting that this event occurred after the Feasts. I'm certain Brother LES would have some interesting contributions to this event. Please note that there was a great earth quake, and a huge majestic voice which stated, "LET US LEAVE HENCE (this place)!" And the Roman Historian recorded this as a departure of the gods.

    Thus, I find this to be the fulfillment of Paul's "Catching Up" to meet Christ in the air, at the last and final trumpet. For not long after this event, Jerusalem was destroyed. I have to do the math and determine the date this took place. But Josephus records that this event took place on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius Can anyone determine what Julian date this was?

    Brother LES:

    Anything significant about this event taking place after the Feasts?

    Joe
    Hi Joe

    I was looking at my notes on Josephus and I have that particular Feast of Pentecost dated at 66AD. I'm not sure where I got that date from, but I'm sure it was from a reputable source or I wouldn't have included it in my notes.

    The one big problem I have with that event being the "Rapture" is that many Christians remained on earth after that event and suffered great tribulation for their faith, even the Apostle John is reported to have lived into the 90's AD.

    God Bless

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  3. #3
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    Quote:
    JOSPEHUS

    "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).
    On page 303 (Just 3 pages down on the url) the writer of "Nero's -Year 2- in Judaea states.


    On the 'Twenty-first of the month Artemisius (Iyyar; April/May)
    Josephus came from Tiberias and went toJotapata (Jos. Wars 3.7.3)

    this Detail reveals that we have passed by the nonth of Nisan (Abib) and have entered into a New Jewish year
    http://www.yahweh.org/publications/sjc/sj24Chap.pdf[

    from The first quote that you have from Josephus, he seems to writing to his Roman Audience, by using the Roman month names. 9second quote shows this) The Feast(s) here look to be 'Passover'. There is the week long Feast of Unleaven Bread that starts on the day after Passover, the 15th of Nisan. Making the ending of the Passover/Unleaven ending on 22nd Nisan. The 'New Year' noted by the writer is the Religious New Year that is in the Spring months. The Civil calendar (Jewish) starts with the Fall Feast of Trumpets (coming of the King) ,no knows the 'day or hour' of this 'Date' as it is a 'new moon' 'date' and there needs to be 'two witnesses' to declare it.

    Josephus then points out the next Feast in line (after Passover) -Pentecost- The 'quaking' would seem to be part of the prophecies of 'The old Heaven and earth world' being shaking and 'rolled' back and forth

    and a huge majestic voice which stated, "LET US LEAVE HENCE (this place)!" And the Roman Historian recorded this as a departure of the gods.
    we know from the book of Hebrews that Temple Worship Cultus 'Had Standing' as long as the Temple stood and there by was 'still' The House of God (Trinity, ie. let 'us' leave hence). The 'Betrothal' to Christs/Gods New Covenant peoples/elect happened and by the 'types and anti-types', The Wedding of the Bride-groom to His Church (True Israel) was about to begin. (Feast of Trumpets then Day of Atonement then Tabernacals)

    The chariots and soldiers in the sky may be type /anti-type of Egyptian soldiers coming at them at the Red Sea.... (First Passover-type ---Last Passover -anti-type)
    If I was in Jerusalem at that time, I would not have taken it as a good sign of things to come, for they knew that all of that generation died in the Wilderness and the 'reproach of Egypt was not rolled away from 'The Children' until the full 40years was over.....(Sinia Betrothal transition period) It was now a Jubilee year that all things might be renewed. (Pentecost to holocaust transitions period)
    The 'Christian Sect' had already left the city.... and I am wondering why I did not leave also... and now the very God(s) (trinity) have left His Temple. The time of Vengence was upon the Covenant Breakers.
    Blessings
    Brother Les
    Last edited by Brother Les; 07-21-2009 at 02:39 PM.

  4. #4
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    Forgery?

    Hi,

    There are some indications that there are forgeries in the accounts of Josephus and Tacitus. I believe there are bias in their accounts for they are non-Jews. They were perhaps forced by the Romans to write the accounts based on Roman's terms so as to glorify Rome. I, for one is a critic and I do not believe in some of their accounts.

    http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm

    http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

    http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/josephus.html

    God Blessed.
    Last edited by CWH; 07-21-2009 at 07:33 PM.

  5. #5
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    Hi,

    There are some indications that there are forgeries in the accounts of Josephus and Tacitus. I believe there are bias in their accounts for they are non-Jews. They were perhaps forced by the Romans to write the accounts based on Roman's terms so as to glorify Rome. I, for one is a critic and I do not believe in some of their accounts.
    I can't buy into that. Besides, one could go through the extreme and discredit the Bible, as very few manuscripts even match amongst themselves.

    There's no direct evidence to suggest that the writings of Josephus are frauds, especially considering some of the early fathers quoted portions of Josephus. St. Eusebius of the 3rd century quoted from him the most.

    One of the most common tactics used by the Futurist position is they often try discrediting historical writings as frauds. Yet many of them cling to the writings of Enoch as proof text for the Futurist position. However, even some of the early century churches regarded the writings of Enoch to be a fraud as the only copy which has been used came from India.

    We do know that the short letter of the New Testament written by Jude contains a small portion of Enoch's writing. But this may not necessarily mean the the visions of Enoch were true. If Enoch's writings is in fact true, then someone has to explain how the giants that lived prior to Noah were 450 feet tall. I can't see David slinging a stone so high and hitting the Giant on the head.

    Consider also this. What possible motive would anyone have in creating a fake writing? Josephus was a Jew who was leader of one of the internal factions within Israel. He turned himself in after being over power by the Romans.

    I see absolutely no motive to create a false writing which has nothing to do with the New Testament. The document composed by Josephus was nothing more than a historical account of the Jewish war against the Romans.

    You must also take the words of Christ into perspective. Jesus said the temple would be destroyed, and it was the very temple they were "seeing". For He says, "Do you not see all these things?" Futurist insist that Jesus was referring to a future (deep future) total destruction, and for some odd reason, believe that the remnants of the temple which exists now is part of the original temple. That, of course, is highly unlikely considering nobody in the 2nd and 3rd century even new the exact location. It wasn't until the 16th century did certain Hellenistic Jews declare the temple of Trajan (now the Mosque) to be a portion of the original first century temple.

    We must also consider why Christ destroyed the temple. Here are the reasons:

    1. To establish the true place of rest for His Spirit - i.e. the Christians themselves
    2. To destroy what did not conform to the pattern as handed down to Moses, as the first century temple was altered by Herod.
    3. To remove the temple used for money, to be replaced by the True Temple of grace, hope, mercy, and love..our bodies.

    I could go on and on, but unless someone can offer solid evidence that the writings of Josephus are fake, then any attempt to discredit the writings is just an attempt to ignore historical evidence of what transpired in the first century.....the most horrific event the Jews ever faced...as Jesus said would happen. I wonder why millions don't believe the words of Jesus came true.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 07-22-2009 at 07:54 PM.

  6. #6
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    Hi,

    No historical account can be 100% accurate. Even in today's news written by journalists who may exaggerate their news and make them more dramatic. Same goes with Josephus and Tacitus, what more if they were under duress. Obviously, they would not write things against their Roman rulers or the Roman empire unless they wanted to get themselves killed. Besides, what they have written was not God inspired. Their accounts are 2,000 years ago and may be altered as they passed from one hand to another through the years.

    I am not trying to discredit the Bible or their historical writings. I believed in many accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem written by Josephus. What I am saying is that one should not believe 100% of the accounts of Josephus and Tacitus or of anybody's account including today's journalists and authors. Obviously, there will be some make-up stories or exaggerations. Don't you all think so?

    Many Blessings.
    Last edited by CWH; 07-23-2009 at 04:21 PM.

  7. #7
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    Hi,

    No historical account can be 100% accurate. Even in today's news written by journalists who may exaggerate their news and make them more dramatic. Same goes with Josephus and Tacitus, what more if they were under duress. Obviously, they would not write things against their Roman rulers or the Roman empire unless they wanted to get themselves killed. Besides, what they have written was not God inspired. Their accounts are 2,000 years ago and may be altered as they passed from one hand to another through the years.

    I am not trying to discredit the Bible or their historical writings. I believed in many accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem written by Josephus. What I am saying is that one should not believe 100% of the accounts of Josephus and Tacitus or of anybody's account including today's journalists and authors. Obviously, there will be some make-up stories or exaggerations. Don't you all think so?

    Many Blessings.
    I would agree that it's possible the writings of Josephus were altered. But the accounts Josephus describe were quoted from some of the early fathers, even prior to Eusebius of the 3rd century. Thus, unless we're willing to state that the early fathers quoted from altered texts, then there's not much of an argument we could make.

    Now there are known false documents from the Gnostics, and there are dozens of websites which post those documents, along with warnings on a few. But the writings of Josephus have never been regarded as a fraud. Maybe disbelieved, but hardly ever a fraud.

    I for one see no reason why the Romans would force Josephus, or even Tacitus, into creating a false document which lies about the events which transpired over Jerusalem.

    Jesus said, "Immediately after the distress of those days (Famine, Pestilence, Persecution, and Tribulation) the sun would be darkened and the moon would not give its light. And the Tribes of the earth/land will mourn. And then they would see the Son of man coming in the "clouds" (Jeremiah)...."

    I believe every disaster that plagued Israel of the flesh was in direct fulfillment of the prophets. The destruction of Jerusalem happened for a reason. It wasn't just a fluke event as some try to make it. It happened for a physical, as well as a spiritual reason, just as it was established as a reason.

    Josephus merely described what happened during this horrible decade of death, famine, and destruction. Why would anyone want to lie about that?

    Joe

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    Here's another interesting parallel between Revelation, and the writings of Josephus.
    Rev. 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
    Wars of the Jews (Book VI 3:4) '….As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. …….So those that were thus distressed by the famine were very desirous to die, and those already dead were esteemed happy, because they had not lived long enough either to hear or to see such miseries.'
    In the final days of the life of the city of Jerusalem, conditions were so bad that not only did the Jews desire to die, but they considered those already dead to be fortunate. This is exactly what Revelation 9 is speaking of, the torment that was inflicted upon those who were not sealed was so bad that they wished themselves to be dead.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
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    Here's another interesting parallel between Revelation, and the writings of Josephus.

    Rev. 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

    Wars of the Jews (Book VI 3:4) '….As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. …….So those that were thus distressed by the famine were very desirous to die, and those already dead were esteemed happy, because they had not lived long enough either to hear or to see such miseries.'

    In the final days of the life of the city of Jerusalem, conditions were so bad that not only did the Jews desire to die, but they considered those already dead to be fortunate. This is exactly what Revelation 9 is speaking of, the torment that was inflicted upon those who were not sealed was so bad that they wished themselves to be dead.

    Rose
    Great post sister Rose!

    I think the writings of Josephus should be studied more in the Church. Unfortunately, too many Futurist's and Historicist's today are attempting to discredit the writing as a fraud. Yet many of them cling to the writings of Enoch; a document we know has been tampered with considering it's origin is from Ethiopia, sometime around the 4rth century.

    The events of the destruction of Jerusalem were quite terrible. What amazes me is how little most within the church even know about that event. They pass over the 70AD destruction as a small time of trouble, yet pretend as though nothing in real significance occurred during that time. A stubborn member I used to chat with on a Futurist website always used the response "Nada!" when asked what significance 70AD played with the scriptures. His view was that nothing of importance occurred during that time.

    What a terrible time it was; so bad that women ate their own young for food because the Romans stole all the food supplies, and cut off the Jews from obtaining any supplies after being surrounded/contained with a massive wall several miles in length. This was common Roman tactic used to starve our their enemies.

    Great post.

    Joe

  10. #10
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    Wasn't the time of vengeance occurring in that day to avenge the innocent blood which was shed from during the time all the way to the unfolding of the Son of God's sacrifice?

    Why are we to believe that that vengeance was to avenge the innocent blood of all time?

    Isn't there yet a time of vengeance coming?

    You make it sound as if it that day was a finality, when, I see it as only a part of God's plan.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

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