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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Where it says that he was without sin?
    Wasn't he the one to carry the sin of the world?

    Like the lost sheep of Luke 15:4-6?

    “What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them would not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after the lost one until he finds it? 5And when he does find it, he sets it on his shoulders with great joy and, upon his arrival home, he calls together his friends and neighbors and says to them, ‘Rejoice with me because I have found my lost sheep.’

    (This lost sheep being not lost like a coin or so, τὸ πρόβατόν μου τὸ ἀπολωλός, from ἀπόλλυμι,
    1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose )
    Last edited by sylvius; 11-20-2013 at 12:52 PM.

  2. #122
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    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2Cor5:21 KJV
    What's your beef, Sylvie? Are you trying to say Jesus had some personal faults that required him to be baptized?
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2Cor5:21 KJV
    What's your beef, Sylvie? Are you trying to say Jesus had some personal faults that required him to be baptized?
    The one who has no sin is the original Adam who lives eternal,

    The sin of the world meant that everything became subjugated to time.

    Adam took that voluntarily on him by eating the forbidden fruit. He became so the speak the lost sheep, who carried the sin of the world.

    Eternity is not endless time.

    Eternal life you even cannot lose.

    That's what NT is about, I think, which is also what is said in 2 Corinthians 5:21.

  4. #124
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    First Time, Next Time, Central Time.. where are you coming from Sylvie??
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Cor15:22

    Hos6:7 - "But they like men [Adam] have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me." The word "men" is the Hebrew 'Adam', Strongs #H120. Adam knew exactly what he was doing!

    Job 31:33 "If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom"
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  5. #125
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    Hello Sylvius
    I will add one or two thoughts to the discussion based on your last post.
    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    The one who has no sin is the original Adam who lives eternal,
    You mean the original Adam before he sinned?

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    The sin of the world meant that everything became subjugated to time.
    "The world" is regarded as those who do not believe in God and are Godless. It is "the world" which is enmity with God; the same as all those who only have the carnal mind. The carnal mind (Rom 8:7) is enmity with God.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Adam took that voluntarily on him by eating the forbidden fruit. He became so the speak the lost sheep, who carried the sin of the world.
    There was nothing voluntary about Adam as I see it. On his part at best, it was a sin of omission and at worst, it was a sin of commission.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Eternity is not endless time.
    Eternity is having no beginning as well as having no end.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Eternal life you even cannot lose.
    I agree, eternal life cannot be lost. Can we say Jesus has everlasting life? In that respect Jesus is more like God now after the resurrection. Jesus had a beginning, he had a genesis, because he was born.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    That's what NT is about, I think, which is also what is said in 2 Corinthians 5:21.
    2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. I do not see this the way you do Sylvius. However, the accomplishment of Jesus leads to everlasting life.

    Finally, my thought on the word "everlasting". Many dictionaries define the word to be the same as eternal. However, there must be a difference seeing we have two words and not just one. Can we think of everlasting as having no end, but having a beginning. Hence, everlasting life is given after the resurrection. (John 6:27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    Have the translators a choice of deciding when to use the word "eternal" or "everlasting"? Would the original Greek or Hebrew words distinguish between the two? How did the translators decide which word to use; "everlasting", or "eternal"?

    A cursory reading of the verses in which "eternal life" is used is in association with the life of God. If before the universe was created and for the purpose of creating man in which the perfectly obedient man was foreknown of God, then in the mind of God, the foreknown man was eternal before time began. That is just my thought.


    David
    Last edited by David M; 11-20-2013 at 03:41 PM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Sylvius
    I will add one or two thoughts to the discussion based on your last post.
    You mean the original Adam before he sinned?
    No.

    The resurrected Jesus is the original Adam (or the second Adam in Paul's terminology) and the original Adam is the resurrected Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    "The world" is regarded as those who do not believe in God and are Godless.
    The world consists of the 99 righteous that do not need repentance.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    There was nothing voluntary about Adam as I see it.
    There was a moment that Eve had already eaten and had become mortal and Adam not yet. He did eat out of solidarity with her.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Eternity is having no beginning as well as having no end.
    It is of another order than time.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I agree, eternal life cannot be lost. Can we say Jesus has everlasting life? In that respect Jesus is more like God now after the resurrection. Jesus had a beginning, he had a genesis, because he was born.
    As resurrected one he was there before being born.



    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. I do not see this the way you do Sylvius. However, the accomplishment of Jesus leads to everlasting life.

    Finally, my thought on the word "everlasting". Many dictionaries define the word to be the same as eternal. However, there must be a difference seeing we have two words and not just one. Can we think of everlasting as having no end, but having a beginning. Hence, everlasting life is given after the resurrection. (John 6:27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    Have the translators a choice of deciding when to use the word "eternal" or "everlasting"? Would the original Greek or Hebrew words distinguish between the two? How did the translators decide which word to use; "everlasting", or "eternal"?
    Hebrew "olam" can mean eternity; also: world, universe, humanity, space, community, existence, surroundings, assembly. pleasures of life.
    "olam vaed" = for ever and ever.

    Genesis 3:22,
    Now the Lord God said, "Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat Now the Lord God said, "Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever."."


    and live forever = "v'chai l'olam" -- can also be translated with "and live eternal" LXX has: καὶ ζήσεται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα
    ,

    (I do think the NT-story of the man with the withered hand is about this verse)

    Mark 10:29-30
    ἔφη ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐδείς ἐστιν ὃς ἀφῆκεν οἰκίαν ἢ ἀδελφοὺς ἢ ἀδελφὰς ἢ μητέρα ἢ πατέρα ἢ τέκνα ἢ ἀγροὺς ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ καὶ ἕνεκεν τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, ἐὰν μὴ λάβῃ ἑκατονταπλασίονα νῦν ἐν τῷ καιρῷ τούτῳ οἰκίας καὶ ἀδελφοὺς καὶ ἀδελφὰς καὶ μητέρας καὶ τέκνα καὶ ἀγροὺς μετὰ διωγμῶν, καὶ ἐν τῷ αἰῶνι τῷ ἐρχομένov ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

    Jesus said, “Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel who will not take a hundred times more now in this present age: houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come.

    αἰών = age; world; order; eternity; existence.
    αἰώνιος = eternal; unending; everlasting; for all time.
    λαμβάνω = to take (with your withered hand), receive.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    A cursory reading of the verses in which "eternal life" is used is in association with the life of God. If before the universe was created and for the purpose of creating man in which the perfectly obedient man was foreknown of God, then in the mind of God, the foreknown man was eternal before time began. That is just my thought.

    There is no before time began, nor after the end of time, since before and after are timebound notions.
    Last edited by sylvius; 11-21-2013 at 12:35 AM.

  7. #127
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    Because of other scripture which includes large gaps in time sandwiched in single verse, Adam#1 probably waited 24 hrs. after Eve ate, to see if she would really die!

    That 1st Adam was rebellious (Job 31:33 and Hos6:7), in contrast to the 2nd Adam (Jesus) who was submissive to the Father. The 'perfect' blood of that 1st Adam was duplicated in the 2nd Adam by way of the Virgin Birth.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Because of other scripture which includes large gaps in time sandwiched in single verse, Adam#1 probably waited 24 hrs. after Eve ate, to see if she would really die!

    That 1st Adam was rebellious (Job 31:33 and Hos6:7), in contrast to the 2nd Adam (Jesus) who was submissive to the Father. The 'perfect' blood of that 1st Adam was duplicated in the 2nd Adam by way of the Virgin Birth.
    Wasn't also for Adam one day like a thousand years?

    Adam could have lived a thousand years (= eternal) but he offered 70 years of it, by eating the forbidden fruit.

    http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfra...bereishis.html
    The Medrash teaches that the Almighty showed Adam the history of mankind --each generation and its leaders. In the course of this "exhibition," Adam was shown the soul of Dovid HaMelech [King David] and the fact that he was destined to live only 3 hours. Adam was very grieved at this loss of potential. He inquired whether he was allowed to bequeath some of his own years to Dovid. The Almighty answered that Adam was destined to live for 1000 years, but that he would be allowed to give up some of those years to Dovid. Adam then bequeathed 70 years to Dovid, so that Adam lived for 930 years and Dovid lived for 70 years.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Because of other scripture which includes large gaps in time sandwiched in single verse, Adam#1 probably waited 24 hrs. after Eve ate, to see if she would really die!

    That 1st Adam was rebellious (Job 31:33 and Hos6:7), in contrast to the 2nd Adam (Jesus) who was submissive to the Father. The 'perfect' blood of that 1st Adam was duplicated in the 2nd Adam by way of the Virgin Birth.
    Adam's sin changed "yom echad", day one, into "yom rishon - yom sh'ni - yom sh'loshi", etc. first day, second day, third day, etc.
    Buit just seemingly, "yom echad" is all there is, it is encompassing all the days from the first day to the last.

    Genesis 2:4, These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.

    Rashi:
    This teaches you that they were all created on the first day (Gen. Rabbah 12:4)

    Genesis 2:17, But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die."

    "yom echad"
    Rashi:
    According to the sequence of the language of the chapter, it should have been written, “the first day,” as it is written regarding the other days, “second, third, fourth.” Why did Scripture write“one” ? Because the Holy One, blessed be He, was the only one in His world, for the angels were not created until the second day. [i.e., יוֹם אֶחָד is understood as ‘the day of the only One’] So is it explained in Genesis Rabbah (3:8).
    the day of the only One’ = "yom hayachid" -
    "yachid" Greek "monogenès", mentioned by John:
    John 1:18, θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε: μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο

  10. #130
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    70 sabbaths

    Hi Sylvius,

    Yes there are 7 Sabbaths in every 49 years + 1 Jubilee at the beginning of each 49 year period = 8 years of rest

    So in 430 years there are 430/49 * 8 = 70 Sabbath Years.

    Wouldn't that be 434 years?
    What is curious is that each new covenant occurs within the 70th Sabbath.

    God only draws near to sinful mankind through grace, and grace is precisely what defines the Sabbath. That's why all the covenants were made at these times.

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