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  1. #71
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    text...

    Sorry, I don't like that either...I tried going back to change that....but will make my next one different. It certainly didn't look like that when I selected that.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    Gotta run for a bit....I'll be back later....Richard has given me more homework.
    Haha! Now you know my true calling! To drive all God's people to dig ever deeper into His Holy Word!

    "Thus saith the Lord! ...."
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    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #73
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    Installment #2 for Richard.

    I agree that Abraham was not a Jew, he was the first one called a "Hebrew." But in the NT, the idea of Jew and Hebrew and Israelite ovelap a lot. For example,
    2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I
    I don't understand why you used the word "physical" when you wrote "I have been grafted into the physical seed of Abraham therefore I am part of Israel." Where does the Bible say that?

    Read Romans 8-11…tells all about the 'grafted in' 'adoption' promise. I read it many, many times but never understood it until now. I am part of Israel because of the promise of the seed of Abraham. If it makes you feel better, ok…I have the same spiritual DNA as Abraham. Rom 9:6-9
    The Bible says that Abraham is the father of all who believe, and that Gentiles who believe are counted as "children of the promise." Its a spiritual thing. To say that you have been grafted into the "physical seed of Abraham" seems absurd, because your DNA was not changed at conversion to Christ (or so I presume!)
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sula
    I am sure the Talmud has many anti-Messiah things to say but I also know that some of the oral laws were written by legalistic corrupt priests/leaders. On the other hand, there is much to be learned from the Talmud just from a few of the exerts I have read. Not all priests/leaders/rabbis were corrupt and anti-Jesus. There are some very learned men who believed the famous Gamiliel knew Jesus to be the Messiah.
    I agree there is much to learn that is valuable in the Talmud. I was just warning that it can not be simply trusted but read with great care. I agree it is a mixed bag, full of words and traditions that probably trace back to the time before Christ, and are good and true and written in the spirit of faithful children of Abraham. But there also is leaven ....

    Everything we read is a mixed bag, is it not? Richard, you may be my current 'mixed bag'. HA!I wonder what evidence there is for Gamaliel believing? I like the idea ... and since Paul was his Talmid (student) I can imagine him going back to his teaching and saying ... "Remember when you told me about Messiah and Isaiah 53 ...." Its a nice thought.

    I don’t know about any concrete evidence but some sages have thought so. Don’t throw the pan out w/the dishwater here. There were some very godly wise sages….and then there were some real losers.Quote:
    Originally Posted by sula
    Absolutely, I remember what Abraham fed the three men and not that it is significant here but this was prior to the giving of the Mosaic Law. However, to discuss this further……………….I only mentioned this particular law because it is a very good example of the liberty taken by many who are legalistic about remaining 'kosher'…..or in your words, Torah observant. The dietary laws are only one aspect of the Mosaic Laws.

    Lev.17:10-16; Deut. 14:21 This law was given because it was a common practice in the Canaanite religion and we both know how God continually warned the children of Israel to stay away from Canaanites and all they practiced. However, the law has been assimilated into the modern/legalistic observancy by the Jews. The Canaanite’s practices are no longer a threat. There are other laws that we do not observe today, ie., animal sacrifices. No need for them, we have Jesus.
    So then, how do you determine which laws to obey, and which to ignore? Do you not see that this is not "Torah observance" at all? It makes a mockery of THE LAW which is supposed to be THE LAW - no monkeying around with "Well, I don't need this part or that but this other part is really important...." That's not how THE LAW works.

    The Law is a most serious thing in the Bible. Christ, the Son of God, had to DIE to free us from its deadly grip!

    This is why I am so dead-set against "playing around" with the Law. The Law has absolutely no meaning if you pick and choose. Its all or nothing.

    Now…..WHO is being legalistic here? I certainly don’t feel that I am playing around w/God at all. I’ve learned the hard way…that is a lose-lose proposition.

    Read again…Rom. 8: 1-2. If I have the Spirit of the Lord, which I believe that I do, then I am free from ALL condemnation from sin….sin which is ever-present. I cannot depend on the 'law' to save me…it is impossible. I do not live a life of obedience/works/law for my salvation. Surely you see that. I CHOOSE to be obedient in everything that I am humanly able to do…which is not a good commentary, for sure. WE all are slave to sin. It is our nature. We fight it all the time. But there is forgiveness.

    There is no way that any of us can live by the law totally. You say it is all or nothing…well, do you really expect one who claims to be Torah Observant to go slaughter a goat/sheep, dove etc before approaching the Throne of God.? Not going to happen. Even Paul had to relax some of the observances made even tho he held onto his Hebraic teachings…as long as Jesus was allowed.

    Allow me to share something w/you Richard. I am 63 yr old. I became a believer in my mid 20’s…spent many years in the Baptist Church. Oh boy….well, there is some great singing there and I loved my church but they sure didn’t teach God’s WORD.

    I fell away a bit for a number of years for various reasons but was able to hold onto my salvation. OOOPPSSS, I slipped, didn’t I. Don’t tell the Baptists that their 'once saved, always saved' is not true doctrine.

    Anyway, A few years back I began to feel the tug of the Lord; A very serious tug. HE placed a hunger for the TRUTH in my heart. I had been around long enough by then to know there is God’s teaching and there is man’s teaching. I wanted to know GOD’s TRUTH…the ONE TRUE TRUTH…no variance; no half way. I had seen enough of man’s teachings. God began a moving miracle in my life. He began putting so much information in my hands I could barely keep up…have not done a very good job but HE continues to keep me on a very fast track of learning. This only started about 5 years ago. I had no idea where God was taking me. I’m not even sure I was aware that HE was taking me anywhere. All I knew was that I had a hunger that was unquenchable. I continued my search. God reintroduced into my life a woman that I had known in another place; a very Godly woman. I began asking questions. She was ever so gracious. She only answered the questions I asked. To keep this from going on for pages and pages, God finally revealed to me where HE was taking me……….and that is back to my Hebraic Roots. He put a love for the Jews…yes, as ungodly and maddening as they can be; a love for Israel and everything that entails. I knew nothing of Israel at that time. If you had asked me to show you where it was on a map, I am embarrassed to tell you that I could not do that. Yep, an elementary school librarian totally ignorant of Israel. I was a pre-tribber deluxe, once-saved, always saved….but I will admit that teaching never did sit quite 'kosher' with me. HA!

    God has taken me to what I believe to be the TRUTH of where HE wants me to be. God is not a liar; HE is not deceitful; HE is good for HIS WORD….ask and ye shall receive. I asked…begged, literally for HIS truth and nothing but the Truth and I believe w/all my heart that is exactly what I am receiving. You put forth some very good arguments, Richard and I thank you for that. You are causing me to search my own heart. I know what I believe and I’ve had to change my thinking on a number of issues…what an eye-opening experience this has been for me. You are helping me learn to express what I know to be true.

    God brought HIS children out of Egyptian bondage. They did not know how to live as a society. They had been in that bondage for 400 years. They were very much like the slave-community of the early years of our nation. When they were freed, they didn’t know what to do. They didn’t know how to govern themselves. So the gov’t took over and have created a very ugly monster. Well, God in all HIS sovereignty knew HIS people needed guide lines. Those guide lines came to them thru the Mosaic Laws. Altho, God knew it would be impossible for them to keep all the laws…it was impossible for any human to do so. He provided the sacrificial system for them. They even messed that up. Man is destined to a life of sin regardless of how many laws there are and for an Orthodox Jew, there are 613. I ask, what was wrong w/the original 10???? Well, there are all those social issues that we seem to get ourselves into.

    I am of the impression, Richard, that we have different perceptions of what the 'law' really is and does. I am not bound by that law anymore. I am free from the bondage that the law put on man before Jesus Christ came to release us of that bondage. Yes, HE died for that. But HIS death did not release you or me from being obedient. If we live a life of sin, no obedience to God, no repentance, than I would say we were headed for hell. That is what my Bible says. Rom 1:24-31; Sin is sin...regardless of what that sin is. Rom 6:12-18 These sins listed in the NT are also listed in the OT Levitical Laws.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sula
    So, Richard, please keep in mind as I had originally stated that we are Torah Observant as best we can and as we understand God leadership here.

    WE are NOT legalistic at all. For instance, if we are invited to friends for dinner and we have a choice of what to eat, then we pick and choose. WE leave out the pork and shell fish. If our plates are served and placed before us, we say nothing as to not draw attention to ourselves. WE make an effort to take a few bites to be polite, quietly and personally ask for forgiveness.
    So you put politeness over obedience to what you believe to be the standling LAW of ALMIGHTY GOD? I don't think you have thought through the full implications of "Torah Observance." Again, Christ, the sinnless Son of God, was CRUCIFED to free you from the death-grip of that "Law" you now toy with in your personal religious system.

    Yes, I have been freed from that death-grip but I have not been excused from walking, living in obedience. Torah really shows us how sinful we are…..so we must turn from our sin; walk in obedience.

    Please hear what I say. I speak as a friend and companion in Christ. You seem to be totally confused about what you mean when you say you are "Torah Observant." You can not say you are doing it "as best as you can" when you willfully break it just to be polite at a dinner party! That is NOT what Christ DIED for!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sula

    God KNOWS our hearts. HE KNOWS we want to serve HIM. HE doesn’t shame us and judge us for this. The point is NOT to be legalistic but to be obedient……
    Christ died to free you from all of that. Please believe me when I tell you that God is not please in any way at all to see you go back to the Old Covenant.

    I disagree. God has shown me how pleased HE is in that we, my husband and I want to live a life of obedience. Obedient to what???? HIS teachings. When I say we follow HIS teachings as best as we can. Can you say anymore? Can you do any better? I go back to HIS Mosaic Law. Our obedience comes from the circumcision of our heart; from our desire to serve Him, worship Him, praise HIM, honor Him. That is what I mean when I say God KNOWS our heart. HE KNOWS we want to serve HIM and honor HIM. But what honor do we do HIM if we sit down w/friends and refuse to eat something that causes a scene, possibly hurt feelings, etc. God told Peter to go ahead and eat for the sake of not offending the Roman Centurion. This is NOT a salvation issue, Richard. Somehow, I gather that you place this to be a salvation issue. It is not. Let me repeat, we do not pick and choose to suit our own needs but the needs of others. Our putting a bite or two of pork in our mouth is not causing us to deny Christ. I would give my life before I would deny Christ.

    I also don’t adhere to an Old Covenant vs. a NEW Covenant. The later is a continuation of the former……even better, a fulfillment. God did not do away w/the old…..HE finished what HE started. HE did not stop, erase and start over. The very first prophecy of the coming Christ happens right in the Garden. This has always been the plan and it started for man in the garden and will end in Revelation 22:21. And Christ shall reign!!!!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sula
    .in our hearts and to keep our focus on Jesus and not making a scene. From the practical point of view, I’ve been sick after eating shrimp enough times to know that it is not good for me. They are scavengers. If you knew what a pig ate and how he lives, you might give that some thought too. Have you read 'HOLY COW' by Hope Egan? Try it!
    That kind of reasoning misses the entire point of the OT Law. Sure, there was some natural wisdom there, but that was not the point. The point was to separate the Jews from the Gentiles till God finished His work in bringing forth the Christ. That's what it was for. Now that time has come and gone. It is pure vanity, or worse, denial of the true meaning of the New Covenant, to go back to the Law in an effort to please God. He would be much more pleased if you just believed the Gospel of His Son.

    Oh my, how I DO believe in the Son and HIS purpose in coming. It means that in my meager attempts to be obedient and when I fail, that I am not cursed and won’t be swallowed up by an opening in the ground. I can go before the Throne of God myself and repent and HE still loves me, HE guarantees HIS forgiveness. God is ALWAYS pleased when HIS children obey. He promise fertile herds and harvest; HE promised barren women would bear children. He promised no sickness if only HIS people whom HE chose from the foundations of the earth would OBEY!!!!!

    Not only has God had me on a fast track back to my Hebraic Roots but HE has taught me an enormous amount on the meaning and humility of obedience and GRACE!!!!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sula
    When God put man in the garden, they were vegetarians. I think Bob mentioned that in his post. The animals in the garden were also vegetarians. Not until God shed the first blood to provide man w/animal skins to hide their shame, did man ever taste meat. For health reasons, God knew what HE was talking about. HE designed the human body so I trust that HE knows what is best for this design of HIS.
    I agree that original creation was vegetarian. But your argument is obviously false because God would not command us to eat meat if it were bad for us.

    And again, you have misunderstood the purpose of the Law. It was not a meant as a "handbook for happy living" under the New Covenant. Its primary purpose was to prepare a people for Christ. It still has purpose now that Christ has come because it teaches us the full meaning of the Gospel. But it is a total error to try to "obsever Torah" now in the New Covenant.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sula
    We are not fanatics about this part of the law; we do the best we can. WE do not pick and choose which law to obey to suit our convenience. We often pray about a situation we are put in…..we merely try to be aware and do the best we can. And, I will say God has blessed us simply for being obedient.
    You do not pick and choose? Of course you do! You choose to eat pork to please your neighbors! This is a mocker of "observing the Torah." You either do it or you don't do it. There is no happy middle when it comes to Torah. CHRIST DIED TO FREE YOU FROM ITS DEATH-GRIP! Let that remind you of the seriousness of Torah! It is not a game. God was deadly serious when He commanded the Torah, because He knew that it would lead to the DEATH of HIS SON!

    Yes, HE was, and I consider it an honor to be able to do something to show/demonstrate my love for HIM…the very least I can do is cancel all Friday night and Sat. plans and work around the house and yard and spend that time quietly in study and fellowship with HIM….observe Shabbat. I even have a mezuzah on my door post to remind me lest I forget to write God’s Word upon my heart and OBEY! I hope you didn’t pass out on that revelation. HA!

    Are we the only ones participating in this topic discussion?

  4. #74
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    Sula - You are not alone -

    Susan says:
    Yes, HE was, and I consider it an honor to be able to do something to show/demonstrate my love for HIM…the very least I can do is cancel all Friday night and Sat. plans and work around the house and yard and spend that time quietly in study and fellowship with HIM….observe Shabbat. I even have a mezuzah on my door post to remind me lest I forget to write God’s Word upon my heart and OBEY! I hope you didn’t pass out on that revelation. HA!

    Are we the only ones participating in this topic discussion?[/QUOTE]
    End of quote.

    Hi Susan,
    It was the LORD himselfl who revealed Deuteronomy 6:4-9 to me on 10/20/96 when I asked HIM to give me something to read :
    HE said : "READ DEUTERONOMY 6!"

    Only 18 month later did I realize the importance of Deuteronomy six, when I was looking through a Jewelry catalog (I'm a Jeweler) and came across a Mezzuzah with the mention of Deut 6:4-9 - SHEMA - "SHEMA ISRAEL ADONAI ELOHAINU, ADONAI ECHAD!" - "HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE!" or the LORD ALONE.

    As you know by now the Jewish People recite this verse at least twice a day, and the man MUST cover their head when they say it. Much of my walk with Y'SHUA / JESUS from Messianic Judaism, to Orthodox Judaism back to the Catholic Church after I was "kicked" out of Kenesseth Israel Congregation in St. Louis Park MN because I asked Rabbi Goldberger to accept our LORD & SAIOR - Y'SHUA - as Messiah, is already documented on this forum.

    Just go to "White" and follow all the threads - happy reading !
    Shalom to Jerusalem & Israel -
    Monique
    Last edited by White; 11-28-2007 at 05:58 PM.
    "According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22

    "Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure; wash me, make me whiter than snow" Psalm 51:9

  5. #75
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    Shema

    Oh don't you love that verse!!! My heart jumps everytime I hear it. Five years ago I could not have told you anything about Israel....now that is different. I still have a long way to go and God is dragging me along and I am having a wonderful time receiving all the wonderful nuggets HE throws my way. It is an amazingly wonderful journey.

    Yes, I read your post but not sure I got the story right. You were attending a synagogue and after meeting Jesus, they kicked you out? Are you Jewish? And you found your way to the catholic church? Is that where you are now...in the catholic church?

    We have no church at all. If there was a Messianic congregation here, I would certainly investigate. There are several in Mexico City but that is 5 hrs from us. So.........we meet in our home w/one other lady on Friday evenings and light our candles, say our blessings, share communion and read the Holy Scriptures. Sat we study and rest. I look so forward to our Shabbat. It is such a peaceful day...a blessed day.

    Thanks for your post, White...I needed that. I was beginning to feel pretty lonesome.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    Everything we read is a mixed bag, is it not? Richard, you may be my current 'mixed bag'. HA!
    Ha! I'm sure that I am sister!
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    The Law is a most serious thing in the Bible. Christ, the Son of God, had to DIE to free us from its deadly grip!

    This is why I am so dead-set against "playing around" with the Law. The Law has absolutely no meaning if you pick and choose. Its all or nothing.
    Now…..WHO is being legalistic here? I certainly don’t feel that I am playing around w/God at all. I’ve learned the hard way…that is a lose-lose proposition.
    I never said you were being "legalistic" my friend. What I was trying to say is that your attempt to be "Torah observant" is false, logically incoherent, and unbiblical.

    Now please don't get me wrong! I'm not calling you names or trying to get you upset. I'm just telling you what seems super-obvious. The whole point of the New Testament is that Christ came to free us from the curse of the Torah. You don't seem to understand that.

    It's not really a matter of "legalism" - its more a matter of theology and hermeneutics. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't try to obey God in whatever way your conscience dictates. I am only trying to tell you that your DOCTRINE of "TORAH OBSERVANCE" is a false doctrine. It contradicts the New Testament and should not be taught or believed by any Christians.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    There is no way that any of us can live by the law totally. You say it is all or nothing…well, do you really expect one who claims to be Torah Observant to go slaughter a goat/sheep, dove etc
    Yes, I do! Absolutely! If you are telling me that you are obeying the Torah, then I expect you to actually OBEY THE TORAH. Is that too much to ask? Its one thing to "fall short" becuase of human weakness. Its quite another to deliberately violate the Torah by eating your neighbor's pork for politeness sake. If you pick and choose which parts you want to "obey" then you are not really obeying anything at all. And that's not my opinion, THAT'S THE LAW!

    Listen Susan, my friend and felllow walker in the grace of Christ. Listen! You know the Bible. Peter said he never had an unclean bite in his life. But you - the great Gentile "do-it-yourself Torah keeper" - gobble down pork and lobster just to keep face with the neighbors! That is not "Torah observance" by any stretch of the imagination. It is a serious delusion, in my estimation. You don't seem to have any idea what the Torah meant to the Jews back then. Many of them would choose DEATH before ever knowingly violating the Law.

    If you really want to obey Torah, then DO IT! Don't lie to yourself and to others and to God that your are doing something you do not really intend to do.

    Again, I pray you do not take offense. I am only doing my best to tell you the truth. It is how I honor you as a fellow child of God.

    God bless you Susan. I pray you receive my words wtih the spirit of peace in which they were sent!

    Richard

    PS: Let's try to narrow our posts down to a single point at a time. Otherwise they get really really big and hard to read and others won't feel like jumping in with their comments.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #77
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    Hi Monique!

    I'm really glad you jumped in here. We have a lot of half-finished conversation on this issue. It would be wonderful if we could articulate our understanding better - for the glory of God. And Susan could use your "moral support" - it just wouldn't be fair if she had to handle the onslaught of the "Feisty Administrator" all alone! She'd be like "Where's my umbrella smiley?! At least she could use the chair!

    My hope is that we can narrow down the issue to something "bite sized" that others can benefit from. That we can articulate in clear and biblical terms how Christians should relate to the Torah.

    I gotta go, I'm taking Rose our for dinner. Talk more soon,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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    Time to call it a night, Richard.

    Richard, I am going to try to keep this short and sweet. I am not a theologian nor an expert in hermeneutics. It is not important to me to get hung up in intellectual debates. There are enough atheists around here that keep me busy in that dept. Frankly, I find it quite boring to 'intellectualize'. There is a difference between intelligence and intellectualizing. I also am not offended, BYW.

    And…..man…I wish I could 'gobble down some pork and lobster'; lobster is my all time favorite and haven’t had any in years. And the last time I had pork was several months ago under protest so you can rest. We are not having a 'torah-breaking fest' here. Relax my friend.

    I have been where you are to some degree..on the same side of the fence. But God carries a bit more clout than you do….sorry. I KNOW where God has led me. I could give you many more references, etc. but I think at this point it would be a waste of my time. I don’t think you are open to this issue. I am sorry. But there is nothing you can say that is going to change my heart on this one. God has been too explicit on this. HE has explained it too well. I am sorry that I am limited in getting the 'truth' across to you. In this case and time, you are the one that doesn’t understand. Your concept of Torah is off….for lack of a better word. It is almost Pharisaic.

    As for Peter, he was raised a Jew, I was not. And the Jews back then were raised/taught under a very legalistic system. I was not. I AM UNDER GRACE!!!! There is a big difference here, Richard. Allow yourself to look at the books/teachings of Moses thru the eyes of GRACE. Living where I live, it is virtually impossible to be totally kosher in the food dept……it is not available. I am wondering, why you have chosen the dietary laws to be so picky about. There are other laws/teachings too. And guess what, I fall short there too. My attitude is not always Godly and I can get very irritable at times. You really would not want to be around me. Shall we discuss these short comings/sins? But Hallelujia….Jesus Saves and forgives. What more can I say?

    I hope you had a nice dinner w/your wife Rose. And those were good clips you sent out about Hagee. Now, there is a real problem.

    Good night, my friendly theologian.

  9. #79
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    Hi Susan,

    Ah, here we go again ! Yes, yes, Torah observance, picking, choosing, Sabbath, kosher, Fasts, Feasts and Festivals etc.

    As we all know there are

    613 LAWS OF MOSES
    also called Commandments or Mitzvahs

    One day I wrote Rabbi Goldberger a letter about their long list of Commandments. It went something like this :

    Adam and Eve had ONE COMMANDMENT - do not eat from the tree....
    and they failed keeping ONE COMMANDMENT
    (but GOD atoned for their sin by slaughtering an animal - the first
    animal sacrifice to atone for sin right there in Genesis Chapter 3)

    Judaism (Orthodox) has 613 Commandments -
    which should make it so crystal clear that NOBODY, I mean NOBODY could possibly follow 613 Commandments Everyday besides JESUS / our LORD & SAVIOR, who is the SINLESS LAMB OF GOD.

    613 6 1 3 =
    316 read from right to left = JOHN 3:16


    I always thought that was funny - same numbers, read from right to left,
    gives us the most important verse in the entire Bible : "FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE LIFE EVERLASTING!"


    This now is for you Susan :
    The LORD started to give me dreams and visions about Judaism, starting with the words: "I bless you if you keep the Sabbath Holy"... I said : "I am, I go to Church every Sunday!" He said in a very deep voice : "Sabbath!" "Sabbath!"

    Now I had to figure out what "Sabbath" was - so I located Shalom Scripture Studies in St. Louyis Park and found out that Sabbath starts Friday Sundown and ends Saturday sundown for the 7th day of rest and because God says ... and "there was evening and there was morning, the first day", ... "there was evening and there was morning, the second day",... and he repeated these exact words 6 x - for the days of creations and then GOD RESTED ON THE
    7th DAY which is the SABBATH.

    But I needed more proof. So I went to the bible and typed out every Sabbath verse I came across in the Old Testament - chills ran down my spine when I discovered that the man who broke the Sabbath by picking up sticks to make a fire - he was stoned to death - I immediately decided to close the doors to my Jewelry Store on the "Sabbath" and promptly, the LORD removed me from my business (because I lost my lease). Now He said : "Keep the Sabbath Holy every week", which I did for quite a long time.

    That was in January/February of 1998 - in June I met a Jewish Believer from Jerusalem, Cheryl, and she brought me to Kenesseth Israel Congregation - an Orthodox Jewish Synagogue - to have my Shabbat dishes blessed and to receive my very first MIKAH (Jewish Purification Bath). On 6/19/98 we celebrated our first KOSHER Shabbat, with Kosher food etc.

    Then by September 1998, the LORD revealed to me that I needed to follow His Lead and after attending this Messianic Congregation - Shalom Scripture Studies with only about 30 members and the Congregation split over doctrine, when the Jewish New Year starts - really, they broke the miniscule Congregation into two - but the LORD said :"Now you go to the Synagogue!" and HE guided me to Kenesseth Israel Congregation on that Friday night in September 1998. I argued with HIM because "They don't love YOU!", but HE said : "This is My Father's House, go here!" - I entered and immediately a voice behind me said :"And you are?" It was Rabbi Goldberger. I introduced myself with the name the LORD had given me : "Monique White" - for White as Snow - {Psalm 51:7) - and the usher asked : "How did you hear about us?" I cheerfully answered : "The LORD told me!" (haha - they knew right away that I was NOT Jewish. Even wearing a Star of David did not make a difference.) Jewish people say : "Hashem" =
    "His Name" rather then "the LORD"... I was allowed to attend service that Friday night. I was the only woman there ... because all the Orthodox woman are at home preparing the Shabbat Dinner for their husbands. Is the LORD funny or what? That was my FIRST Friday Night Service at an Orthodox Synagogue. Somwhat intimidating. More will follow:

    But Susan, go to my website - www.watchandpray - the Lord gave me Poetry as a gift and Richard was kind enough to help putting it on my website - some of my "Jewish" experiences are under "Stories" - Pls feel free to e-mail me - you may use my private e-mail as well : Monique@Moniqueswhitediamonds.com

    Then if you want to learn more about Judaism - go to aish.com - it is an amazing site. When the Holy SPirit is your guide, He will open your eyes to many beautiful nuggets in the Old Testament that will enhance your "walk with the LORD" and you will be blessed (and persecuted) depending on the circumstance. But I am sure that JESUS is smiling down on you right now and is dancing in Heaven over this obedient Daughter of Zion.

    Don't forget to pray for Peace of Jerusalem every day (Psalm 122) and Psalm 91 for your protection. The evil one hates people who follow the LORD'S way but you have the authority to send him away -

    RIchard and I don't agree exactly on these things, but the HOLY SPIRIT can certainly move our hearts in the right direction. I not only have a Mezzuzah on my door to my house, I also have built my 10th SUKKAH this year - uhhhhhh - And it was a great blessing with friends stopping by for a meal. Hanukkah is coming up shortly. The Feast of the Dedication (of the Temple) was then taking place in Jerusalem. It was winter. And Jesus walked about in the temple area on the Portico of Solomon.".... May this be a wonderful celebration of Hanukkah and may the words of JESUS become reality : " The Father and I are ONE!" - John 10:30. Actually, may Ezekiel 37:15-28 become reality : That passage was read in the Synagogue the very first Shabbat morning Service I attended on 12/26/1998
    again following the prompting of the Holy SPirit ! My house was in forclosure, but because of my obedience to the instructions of the LORD, I received the funds necesary the following week to get my house on the Lake out of forclosure. God IS GOOD!and kind and patient, and loving, and HE IS SITTING ON HIS THRONE, even now and always!

    Got to go! But please feel free to go to all the links under "White" - much of my journey is spelled out on this wonderful forum RIchard put together. He is absolutely fantastic - even if we don't agree on everything - and there is much more that I have not even brought up - and we pray for UNITY - ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE LORD...

    Concerning my upbringing : I was born and raised Catholic, then became an Evangelical and followed the Holy Spirits guidance from the Messianic Congregation to the Orthodox Synagogue, and then when I was told to leave becaus I could not give up JESUS / Y'SHUA - the LORD instructed me to return to the Catholic Church in November of 1999, after I asked Rabbi Goldberger to accept Jesus / Y'SHUA as Messiah. Anyway - just following the HOLY SPIRIT - Lord make me bold... ( I describe myself as " Born and raised Catholic, have an Evangelical heart (on fire for the LORD) and have Jewish Roots) - not kidding. My Father's crest has a 6 pointed Star of David in it and the Church I attend has a Star of David for the roof - www.ourladyofthelake.com -

    Shalom and happy reading !
    Monique

    Hi RIchard :
    Topic - Sabbath - again - you are good with the posting - and we can probably spend many more hours on this subject, which has occupied minds for over 2000 years. The one thing that always struck me is :

    JESUS HEALED PEOPLE MOSTLY ON THE SABBATH ...
    I wonder whether Sabbath Observance could give us "healing" that we would not get otherwise. Just a thought ...

    Shalom,
    Monique

    PS : I hope you enjoyed your dinner with your lovely wife!
    Last edited by White; 11-28-2007 at 08:32 PM. Reason: typos
    "According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22

    "Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure; wash me, make me whiter than snow" Psalm 51:9

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    Richard, I am going to try to keep this short and sweet. I am not a theologian nor an expert in hermeneutics. It is not important to me to get hung up in intellectual debates. There are enough atheists around here that keep me busy in that dept. Frankly, I find it quite boring to 'intellectualize'. There is a difference between intelligence and intellectualizing. I also am not offended, BYW.
    Hello my friend,

    Don't worry about that fact that you are "not a theologian nor an expert in hermeneutics." Not everyone is suited for that kind of disciplined, principled, and serious study of Scripture. God has made you perfectly suited for the mission and calling He has planned for you.

    But do not deceive yourself into thinking our differences can be dismissed as a mere "intellectual debate." That would be a great injustice to both of us. I spoke to you from my heart the truth I see in the Bible. You answered from your heart with the truth as you see it. There was absolutely no "intellectualization" cluttering up the conversation as far as I could see.

    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    And…..man…I wish I could 'gobble down some pork and lobster'; lobster is my all time favorite and haven’t had any in years. And the last time I had pork was several months ago under protest so you can rest. We are not having a 'torah-breaking fest' here. Relax my friend.
    You seem to have completely misunderstood my point. I am not the least bit concerned about you having a "torah-breaking fest!" I could not care less! My point concerned the rank hypocrisy of saying that you seek to be "Torah observant" even as you willfully break Torah, not of necessity, but of convenience! That makes a mockery of Gods' Torah and the bloody death that Christ had to die to free you from it.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    I have been where you are to some degree..on the same side of the fence.
    I really don't think you have any idea at all about where I am coming from because your answers indicate that you profoundly misunderstood the points I was attempting to make. It appears my view of Scripture and the Gospel it teaches is entirely foreign to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    But God carries a bit more clout than you do….sorry. I KNOW where God has led me. I could give you many more references, etc. but I think at this point it would be a waste of my time. I don’t think you are open to this issue.
    I am TOTALLY OPEN to discuss this! Do not mistake my ready answers for a closed mind! It just so happens I have thought about this a lot and so I have strong opinons. That does not mean I'm closed minded. I would be absolutely delighted if you would sincerely engage in a serious discussion of what the Holy Word really says about this issue. You are the one backing out here, not me. I am open to correction on everything. Are you? I can truthfully declare with my whole heart that I am ready and willing to repent from any error anyone can prove from Scripture. That is the truth of my soul! That is the passion of my heart! Will you share it with me?
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    I am sorry. But there is nothing you can say that is going to change my heart on this one.
    So your mind is closed then? That's sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    God has been too explicit on this. HE has explained it too well. I am sorry that I am limited in getting the 'truth' across to you.
    If "God has been too explicit on this" then I would think you should have no trouble sharing it. Its not so difficult. Just type it in and let us all read it. You seem to be giving up before even trying. I would be very very very interested to know the details of how God explained something to you that seems to me to contradict His Bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    In this case and time, you are the one that doesn’t understand. Your concept of Torah is off….for lack of a better word. It is almost Pharisaic.
    Again, you have completely missed my point. I am a Christian. I do not advocate "Torah observance" at all, so I'm certainly not "Pharisaic." My point was to prove that your doctrine of Torah observance is a false doctrine. If there is something I have failed to understand, it should be easy for you to say what it is, since I am one of the most open individuals when it comes to criticism.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    As for Peter, he was raised a Jew, I was not.
    Exactly! So stop trying to act like one already. It most certainly is not pleasing to Christ who died for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    And the Jews back then were raised/taught under a very legalistic system. I was not. I AM UNDER GRACE!!!!
    Exactly! So stop pretending to be a Jew observing Torah when in reality you don't even try to keep it seriously. It is a disgrace to the Gospel.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    There is a big difference here, Richard. Allow yourself to look at the books/teachings of Moses thru the eyes of GRACE. Living where I live, it is virtually impossible to be totally kosher in the food dept……it is not available.
    Again, you completely missed my point. I am not saying that you sinned for not fully keeping Torah. I am saying you are sinning because you are TRYING to keep Torah after Christ the final sacrifice was slain for you!

    You are failing to understand the most elementary aspect of the Gospel. Christ died to free you from the curse of the Law. Don't entangle yourself with it again. God does not honor that activity.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    I am wondering, why you have chosen the dietary laws to be so picky about. There are other laws/teachings too. And guess what, I fall short there too. My attitude is not always Godly and I can get very irritable at times. You really would not want to be around me. Shall we discuss these short comings/sins? But Hallelujia….Jesus Saves and forgives. What more can I say?
    I didn't "choose" the dietary laws - you laid them out before me as one of the laws of Torah that you choose to violate when convenient. You admitted that you deliberately violated the dietary rules in the Torah in the same post you said that "following the Torah" made you so much closer to God. That is a neon sign blinking DECEPTION DECEPTION DECEPTION because God does not honor observance of "dietary laws" as a means of getting close to Him, (we approach through faith in Christ, not observance of the Law!), and even if He did, He certainly would not honor rank hypocrisy, especially when it concerns HIS HOLY LAW - the FIERY LAW of ALMIGHTY GOD for which CHRIST DIED to set you free!

    Sorry for the excessive intellectualism. I guess I was in kindergarten one year too long.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    I hope you had a nice dinner w/your wife Rose. And those were good clips you sent out about Hagee. Now, there is a real problem.

    Good night, my friendly theologian.
    And a good night to you, my friendly victim of my excessive theological intellectualism and hyper-hermeneuticism.

    If you want to pursue this topic with me in a quieter tone, I'd be delighted to do so. We can dig deep to see what the Bible really teaches about it. I am ABSOLUTELY OPEN to discuss this with you. My mind is not closed just because I have reasons for what I believe. I am open to correction. We can learn things together in peace without feeling like we have to defend ourselves.

    God bless you and keep you in the perfect peace of Jesus Christ,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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