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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Dear Bob and Rose,

    Thanks for your defense, Bob. Rose thanks for clarification that Sabbath is not Sunday and Sunday is not Sabbath. Truly, Y'SHUA is our Sabbath Rest - for from Him and through Him and for HIM are all things. To HIM be glory forever. Amen.
    Amen indeed. We are in perfect agreement on those points.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    I don't have the time to research this but you might want to dig deeper into the question why it says so many times in the New Testament that JESUS healed on the Sabbath... of course HE got into trouble over it because of LEGALISM and that was part of the point, but the other part might be that there is special HEALING in keeping the SABBATH / SATURDAY for the Soul, Mind and Spirit? Just a thought...
    I think God's "special days" are for teaching His lessons. For example, the primary purpose of Passover, Firstfruits, and Pentecost was to prophesy and teach about the meaning of Christ's Death and Resurrection and the outpouring of His Spirit, since those events were fulfilled on the exact days of the feasts. But for me, it feels like I would be moving in the direction of a pagan superstition if I began to attribute special properties to the days themselves, as if God's "healing" were somehow more "available" on the Sabbath than on other days of the week. I think Paul was addressing this kind of error when he wrote:

    Galatians 4:8-11 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,[see Spoke 4 article on the Four Weak and Beggarly Elements] whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
    You see, the "observance" of these "days, months, times, and years" were all part of the pagan superstition that they could control events and spiritual principalities and powers and all that on certain days. That's why Paul links them to "them which by nature are no gods." Similar ideas are still current in Judaism, as seen for example, in the Jewish idea that Satan has no power on Yom Kippur, so we are able to do spiritual things on that day that are very difficult if not impossible on other days of the year.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    'But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel…These churches err in their teaching, for Scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect.'

    -John Theodore Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday, pp. 15, 16
    This kind of confusion saturates the discussion of this question. I do not see how any informed student of the Bible could suggest that there is a "law in the New Testament" that "ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath." The idea of proclaiming new ceremonial laws is entirely foreign to everything about the New Testament. The NT is not a book of upgraded OT laws! That is a complete misunderstanding of the Gospel which is the revelation of the Gospel of Righteousness through Faith. Though I don't know much about him, this one quote from Mueller makes me think he was so deeply trapped in legalism that he could not see the primary meaning of the message of the New Testament.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Is D.L. Moddy correct?

    Dwight L. Moody: 'The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word ‘remember,’ showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?'

    More on Sabbath etc. Your thoughts Richard?
    I disagree with D. L. Moody. I don't know of anything in the Bible
    that states the "Sabbath was binding in Eden." Of course, it originated as a memorial of the Seven Days of Creation, but that is a far cry from saying that it was "binding in Eden." Furthermore, Moody's exegesis of the word "remember" as "showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai" is a creative invention that could be used heuristically I suppose, but I don't think it carries any weight in legitimate biblical exegesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    The SABBATH or Sunday – which?

    Most professing Christians observe Sunday. Yet, the Jewish people (and a few others) keep the seventh-day Sabbath. Was this day only for the Jews, or only for ancient Israel? Does the New Testament establish Sunday, as the Lord’s Day—or is the Sabbath still in effect? Does it make any difference? If so, which day is the Christian Sabbath? Can it be proven?
    BY DAVID C. PACK - Google " The Sabbath or Sunday - which?" for complete information -
    Those are the questions we are hoping to clarify. Thanks for your help in this important endeavour.

    Richard

  2. #12
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    Hi Richard,

    I liked Bob's post in "my defense" - oh well - the SABBATH question has been moved to Hermeneutics & Theology - "WHAT IS THE MEANING OF SATURDAY SABBATH for Christians?" A very important topic that needs an answer, or your investigation into God's plan for the SABBATH.

    In my opinion "TRUE ISRAEL" and "Sabbath" can't be separated - but "The Sabbath" being such a well documented subject in the Pentateuch and the New Testament - I invite all readers of TRUE ISRAEL to switch over to the SABBATH question - Should we or should we not keep the "SABBATH" holy and can SABBATH which means SATURDAY in Hebrew be any day of the week because Jesus is now our "SABBATH REST" ?

    My investigation and deeper walk with my LORD and Savior Y'SHUA / JESUS started out with His prompting me to "keep that Sabbath holy" - not to be saved (I'm saved by the BLOOD OF MY LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST) but to be blessed - "I bless you if you keep the SABBATH holy" was the prompting of the HOLY SPIRIT in 1998 which started my journey into understanding the roots of our LORD and SAVIOR, namely Judaism. Thus this SABBATH THREAD now becomes a continuation of discussion about the true meaning of SABBATH - Before Y'shua came to walk on the earth and after Y'shua left the Earth - Did the Apostles continue to keep the Sabbath Holy or did they change the Sabbath to Sunday? How does the Church today keep the Sabbath Holy? Did the Church replace "Israel" and if so, what is she doing about the
    4th Commandment : "Keep the Sabbath Holy". Is the "Sabbath" for Jews only or just for the land of Israel today. The Walls of Jerusalem - the Wailing Wall - fell into Jewish hands on 6/7/67 at 10:20 am to be precise - Why 6/7/67 ? I asked. "Simple, 6/7/67 stands for 6 days of work, 7th day of rest" according to the LORD's revelation to me - Enjoy this important topic discussed "over there"...

    Shalom and Shabbat Shalom tonight!
    White
    Last edited by White; 07-06-2007 at 11:14 AM. Reason: typo

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Hi Richard,

    I liked Bob's post in "my defense" - oh well - the SABBATH question has been moved to Hermeneutics & Theology - "WHAT IS THE MEANING OF SATURDAY SABBATH for Christians?" A very important topic that needs an answer, or your investigation into God's plan for the SABBATH.
    Hi Monique,

    I liked Bob's comments too - he seems to be weighing both sides of the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    In my opinion "TRUE ISRAEL" and "Sabbath" can't be separated - but "The Sabbath" being such a well documented subject in the Pentateuch and the New Testament - I invite all readers of TRUE ISRAEL to switch over to the SABBATH question - Should we or should we not keep the "SABBATH" holy and can SABBATH which means SATURDAY in Hebrew be any day of the week because Jesus is now our "SABBATH REST" ?
    Sure, the questions are related, but the Sabbath question is truly independent, as we know since many people have been discussing it without reference to the "True Israel" question. And people don't need to "switch over to the Sabbath question" - they can talk discuss things in both threads. I'm just trying to keep things well organized, so the discussion will flow better for everyone. This is standard procedure on internet forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    My investigation and deeper walk with my LORD and Savior Y'SHUA / JESUS started out with His prompting me to "keep that Sabbath holy" - not to be saved (I'm saved by the BLOOD OF MY LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST) but to be blessed - "I bless you if you keep the SABBATH holy"
    So you think God will bless you more if you keep the Sabbath? You believe that God's blessings are conditional, that they depend on obeying commandments that pertained to the Old Testament Jewish Theocracy? Do you worship God more on Sabbath than on Tuesday? If so, is that not a reason for God's judgment (since you are willfully ignoring Him on Tuesday) rather than a commendation because you finally decided to give Him your full attention on Saturday?

    Remember the words of our Saviour:
    John 4:19-24 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
    That seems to be the fundamental message of the whole New Testament. We don't worship God in Jerusalem, we don't worship God by following rules, we don't worship God in rituals. We worship God 24/7/365 in spirit and in truth, and anything else brings a curse, not a blessing.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    was the prompting of the HOLY SPIRIT in 1998 which started my journey into understanding the roots of our LORD and SAVIOR, namely Judaism. Thus this SABBATH THREAD now becomes a continuation of discussion about the true meaning of SABBATH - Before Y'shua came to walk on the earth and after Y'shua left the Earth - Did the Apostles continue to keep the Sabbath Holy or did they change the Sabbath to Sunday?
    That question is loaded with a false assumption. The Bible says the apostle's met on Sunday, but that doesn't mean they "changed the Sabbath to Sunday." There is nothing in the Bible that suggests anything about a "change" of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. It seems to me that this whole charge of "changing" the day is a red herring that was introduced by people committed to keeping the Saturday Sabbath (I'm not talking about you Monique) because they were unable to support their arguments by Scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    How does the Church today keep the Sabbath Holy?
    Through Christ. I am surprised you are asking this question at this late stage in our conversation, since this answer has been stated over and over again, and you yourself just recently stated that "Truly, Y'SHUA is our Sabbath Rest - for from Him and through Him and for HIM are all things." If Christ is the true meaning and fulfillment of the Sabbath, why would we want or need to act it out on a certain day?

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Did the Church replace "Israel" and if so, what is she doing about the 4th Commandment : "Keep the Sabbath Holy".
    She is keeping Eternal Sabbath in finished work of Christ. That is essential meaning of the Gospel preached in the New Testament.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Is the "Sabbath" for Jews only or just for the land of Israel today.
    The Jews keep sabbath because they have not found their rest in Christ as yet. They are still under the Law because they have not received Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    The Walls of Jerusalem - the Wailing Wall - fell into Jewish hands on 6/7/67 at 10:20 am to be precise - Why 6/7/67 ? I asked. "Simple, 6/7/67 stands for 6 days of work, 7th day of rest" according to the LORD's revelation to me

    Shalom and Shabbat Shalom tonight!
    White
    Do you recall that I already addressed the "6/7/67" date? If not, that's ok, there are lots of threads going on and I am always forgetting things. Here is how I answered you in this post in that other thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Well, it sure would be nice if Israel were enjoying her sabbath! But it looks like its still future .... given the state of the middle east right now. The idea of 6/7 fits very well with popular idea of 6 days = 6000 years, so the millennium is the 7th day and lasts a thousand years. But I don't think its going to work out that way. ....
    My point was (and is) that Jerusalem has not had anything like a "sabbath" in the 40 years since 1967. And 40 years is 4% of a millennium, so it certainly does not look like the seventh millennium of Sabbath rest started in 1967. How do you understand this apparent contradiction between reality and the sense you have that 6/7/67 had something to do with the millennial sabbath?

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    - Enjoy this important topic discussed "over there"...
    It's only a click away Monique! (Well, actually, since I moved your post, you are already here! ) It seems like you think I've exiled the conversation to another continent. Hop on "over here" and keep talking. I really appreciate you input.

    God bless you my sister!

    Richard

  4. #14
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    Blessings to all here in the name of Christ our Savior. I have always been blessed by the BW site and now what a wonderful group of brothers and sisters are here to exchange their thoughts on God's word!

    All that is said here is great to think upon on. For me, the 4th chapter of Hebrews was most helpful in regards to the Sabbath and its true meaning. Whenever I find myself confused in the area of obedience I try to remember to ask myself "what is the intended spirit behind God's command?". Since Christ summed up the law in the two great commandments (loving God and loving neighbor) this fits into what was said above about the two divisions of the commandments.....so the commandment of the Sabbath concerns the love and honoring of God. The forth chapter of Hebrews is all about the spiritual meaning behind the commandment of the Sabbath. It concerns resting from our own works, as is the origin of the Sabbath on the seventh day of creation. This meaning honors God because he alone is our salvation and only when we "rest" from our own efforts of righteousness and have faith in HIS righteousness do we truly honor and love him. Christ is indeed our Sabbath, our rest from our own works. We observe the Sabbath every time we acknowledge this truth and rest in Christ. As in other ceremonial observances of the Old Testament, they are only shadows of the real thing. The outward observance of the Sabbath day was to be a picture of our resting from our "works" to gain salvation. That is why no work was to be done on the Sabbath. It was a PICTURE.... that is how I see it anyway.... the importance or meaning was NOT a day set apart to worship, but a day set apart to REST from work.... a picture of how we are saved....not of works, lest any man should boast...........

    The importance of the Sabbath day emphasizes the importance of our remembering how we are saved.......that we can do NOTHING.....



    Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

  5. #15
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    Dear Richard, Rose, Brother Bob, Shalag and yinonyavo,

    Shabbat Shalom ! Starts at sundown tonight - Greetings my friends !
    I better hurry, I'm not allowed to type after sundown... just kidding !

    Sabbath Rest - Sabbath Worship - Keep Sabbath Holy - Saturday ? Sunday?
    Any day of the week?

    I would like to put it this way for starters :

    God is sitting on HIS Throne
    Tears are streaming down HIS face
    For LACK OF KNOWLEGE MY PEOPLE shall die
    How come YOU BELIEVERS are so shy?

    (1st verse of my first poem, inspired by God on 9/21/96)


    God is sitting on HIS Throne
    like a cop HE directs, guides, holds out HIS HAND to stop

    Different circles of life is all HE sees
    He shakes His Head in disbelief - how can I get through?

    Here are those who worship on the SABBATH -
    Following HIS COMMANDMENT to a T
    Better yet - their Rabbis enhanced #4 to make it more stringent
    Adding all kind of do's and dont's to "please" Hashem in Heaven

    Here are those guided by the "Holy See"
    Sabbath is the 7th day, but Sunday is the 8th - a Day Eternal
    The LORD is risen on that very day the sheep are told
    A rule to follow: Sunday you must sit in the pew - and don't be bold
    Most other Christian Religions followed the Holy See
    SUNDAY is the day the KING of ISRAEL is worshipped for all to see

    Then there is a considerably large crowd - who don't like any rules
    Any day is as good as Sabbath or Sunday worship they say
    After all, the LORD died for all of us and set us free
    The SABBATH rule was nailed to a tree
    We are not under any stupid rule
    SABBATH or SUNDAY does not matter
    Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or Friday
    Are as good as any - just remember the ONE who died for you
    We are free to worship any day, morning, noon or night
    Just make it right

    (verse # 2 of my 1st poem)
    I gave MY Beloved Son that you may live
    live a life of peace and happiness on Earth as in Heaven
    Shout it to the world, let them see, let them hear
    I am a GOD of LOVE, I care, your prayers I hear


    What prayers - we are all such great individuals - I do it my way
    Corporate worship is not for me, I like to pray under a tree
    Any day, morning, noon or night just seems so right to me
    On Friday, Saturday, Sunday or Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday
    Does anybody care ? As long as I pray to Y'SHUA / JESUS I'll be on the way...

    (3rd verse of my first poem)
    Make JESUS CHRIST / Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH your way of life
    HE longs to HOLD you, HEAL you, LOVE you
    HE is the ONE who came back and is now alive
    When I'm YOUR GOD YOUR FIRST LOVE! YOUR FIRST LOVE!
    Then you'll DO MY WILL - that is GOD'S WILL
    Then you'll know true LOVE ,
    have Peace and Happiness all the days of your lives
    as I LOVE YOU always, even to the end of the times


    So what shall it be - Heavenly Father - direct my steps
    I plead, don't you hear, don't you care?
    I'm in distress, why don't you answer when I call
    Don't you know I love you, worship you, pray to you
    Any day, morning noon or night seems so right
    Don't you hear, Don't you care, at least I pray, ok?

    "KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY" HE says:
    "I BLESS YOU IF YOU KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY"



    The COP in Heaven is looking down from HIS THRONE
    distressed is HE with what HE sees - what happened to MY # 4 HE muses
    alone


    The SABBATH is made for MAN and not MAN for the SABBATH
    Can't they see, with My day of REST they'll become the BEST
    It's for their own good to refresh mind, spirit, heart and soul
    Let's set the day apart - connect to Heaven - know that I am GOD
    Yes, sit still and know that I AM GOD - that is your SABBATH REST
    In MY HOUSE she is the QUEEN - the SABBATH QUEEN is the BEST


    Make JESUS CHRIST YOUR WAY OF LIFE - YOUR WAY OF LIFE
    God the Father and God the SON are ONE
    Our Heavenly Father knows best - HE made it so clear -
    SABBATH! SABBATH ! HIS SABBATH Rest is best for all of mankind
    WITH ONE ACCORD WE PRAY to carry more power to the HIGH Tower

    The Battle is fierce - the father of all lies wants to divide
    A House divided against itself cannot stand
    But a House UNITED, watch out, will take over the LAND

    GENESIS 2:2 "AND ON THE SEVENTH DAY GOD ENDED HIS WORK
    WHICH HE HAD DONE, AND HE RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY
    FROM ALL HIS WORK WHICH HE HAD DONE.
    (3) THEN GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND SANCTIFIED IT,
    BECAUSE IN IT HE RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK
    WHICH GOD HAD CREATED AND MADE."


    The Sabbath day is a Day that is blessed
    Blessed by GOD the Father who blessed the 7th Day and sanctified it.
    In Exodus 16:27-30 Moses gave clear instructions concerning the Sabbath Rest.
    When GOD says REST, HE means it. The manna from Heaven was
    completely absent on the seventh day, but a double portion was given on the 6th day,
    week after week for 40 years - to teach about the SABBATH - SATURDAY REST.

    ISAIAH 66:23: A Sabbath Rest in the future: "And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, ALL flesh shall come to worship before ME", says the LORD.

    ISAIAH 1:18 : Come let us reason together, says the LORD: Though your sins be like scarlet they may become white as snow... If you are willing and obey, you shall eat the good things of the land...

    ISAIAH 2:2 : Come, let us climb the LORD'S Mountain, to the house of the GOD OF JACOB. That he may instruct us in his ways, and we may walk in his paths." = with Sabbath / Saturday or Sabbath/Sunday? For from Zion shall go forth instruction and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem (I'm thinking SABBATH/SATURDAY)... (5) O house of Jacob, come, let us walk in the LIGHT OF THE LORD = Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH = the Light of the WORLD = a Jew born in BETHLEHEM of Judea for thus it has been written through the prophet:
    "And you, Bethlehem, land of JUDAH, are by no means least among the rulers of JUDAH: since from you shall come a ruler, who is to shepherd my people ISRAEL." His strong Name is Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH.

    Now HE - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH is the key :
    Obviously in Matthew Chapter 4:4 Y'SHUA replied : "It is written: "One does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God." = (KEEP THE SABBATh HOLY). (7) Jesus answered him, "Again it is written : "You shall not put the LORD, your GOD, to the test.." (10) Get away, Satan! It is written: "The LORD your GOD shall you worship and him alone shall you serve."
    If Y'SHUA / JESUS - the SON of GOD and GOD HIMSELF, did not come up with any other way to refute the devil but by the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD - established in the TORAH - would it not seem to be preposterous to change the SABBATh into SUNDAY or "ANY DAY OF THE WEEK"?

    And I'm most worried about Matthew 7:22 : "Many will say to me on that day, "LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? Then I will declare to them solemnly, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers." the footnote says : "Entrance into the KINGDOM is only for those who do the will of the Father. Question: Is the will of the Father to keep the Sabbath or NOT to keep the Sabbath as Saturday, but any day that pleases the individual?

    Malachi, the Last book in the Old Testament says in 3:22 : "Remember the LAW OF MOSES my servant, which I enjoined upon him on Horeb, the statutes and ordinances for all Israel. Lo I will send you Elijah, the prophet, before the day of the LORD comes, the great and terrible day, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with doom. "

    Y'SHUA declared that JOHN THE BAPTIST was this prophet (Matthew 17:11 : "Elijah will indeed come and restore all things, (12) but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also will the Son of Man suffer at their hands."

    Luke 4:16 - Jesus came to Nazareth where he had grown up and went according to his custom into the Synagogue on the Sabbath day. "The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim a year acceptable to the LORD." .... (21) He said to them, "Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing." Y'SHUA was keeping the SABBATH custom, as well as the early Christians. Especially Acts 15 which has been cited numerous times concerning the Laws for the Gentiles to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals and blood, but absolutely no mention of "the Sabbath law". But then in verse 21 we read: For Moses, for generations now, has had those who proclaim him in every town, as he has been read in the synagogues every sabbath." - That is a CRYSTAL CLEAR indication, that it was so commonly known and so obvious that the SABBATH is the 7th day, that there was just no need to constantly point to the 4th Commandment, Keep the Sabbath Holy - It was clearly understood that the worship day of Y'shua and of the Apostles was and is SATURDAY - SABBATH - SHABBAT... including SAUL / PAUL - the Pharisee of Pharisees. Many Passages support "SABBATH" in the New Testamanet Gospels and the book of Acts.

    We can compare that missing information to the present day struggle in the United States concerning "Marriage between ONE Man and ONE Woman". When the founders made the law of Marriage, they did not think it was necessary to specify that Marriage had to be between only ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN and not two men or two women or worse. It was understood that MARRIAGE could only be between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN. Anything else did not even enter the mind of our founding fathers. Same here - The Sabbath was so well established and kept in all the Synagogues that there was just not need to mention that it had to be the 7th day - Sabbath - the HOLY DAY!

    Why the SABBATH is not stressed more - although I believe there is plenty of evidence that neither Y'SHUA / JESUS had any intention of changing the day from Saturday to Sunday nor did the Apostles want to change the typical sanctified HOLY DAY of the week - the SABBATH DAY was and is the DAY OF WORSHIP for our Jewish Brethren, with or without Y'SHUA in the Heart of all. Does it mean that one will go to Heaven by keeping the Sabbath Holy? NO! Absolutely NOT! I say again - NO - we are saved by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB - by the BLOOD of the Passover LAMB - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - by whose blood we are washed and white as snow. Let's put it this way : HEBREWS 9:22: "ACCORDING TO THE LAW ALMOST EVERYTHING IS PURIFIED BY BLOOD, AND WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS."

    Another way of putting the Sabbath question : - Bear with me - I'm trying to paint a word picture:

    You have a large Orchestra with hundreds or even thousands participants and you were practicing for a great Feast Day - would you want all your members come and practice each on different days of the week or would you want them to all come and practice together in preparation of that Great Feast Day - when everything will be beautiful, harmonious, glorious, peaceful like the Marriage Supper of the LAMB. We are all practicing for that special day to come. Does it not make sense to say to the LORD : "You know, I love You with all my heart, with all my soul and with all my mind and I know that YOU, LORD Y'SHUA, went to the Synagogue on the SABBATH to fulfill the requirement of the 10 COMMANDMENTS - - even though that all came through HIM so HE really didn't have to got to the Synagogue at all - HE WAS THE SYNAGOGUE - HE said that HE IS THE TEMPLE, right? - but HE went anyway for the sake of UNITY and to keep THE LAW - should we do any less but at least keep the SABBATH / SATURDAY HOLY to the best of our ability? That would seem "right" to me.


    In the book of Acts we find Paul preaching many times - and we find him preaching in the Synagogues of the Jews for their Sabbath - Saturday Worship Day - It is mentioned many times that Paul went to the Synagogues on the "SABBATH" to preach and teach.

    Hebrews 13:8 - GOD is the same yesterday, today and forever (Strong statement for the Saturday Sabbath, I humbly say)

    Matthew 5:18 - "Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter of the smallest tittle will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." Last I check Heaven was still above and the earth is still turning...
    Luke 16:17 - "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the smallest part of a letter of the law to become invalid." = strong support of Saturday Sabbath, I say humbly...


    But then I found REVELATION 1:10 - Richard - You will LOVE this:
    "I was in the SPIRIT on the LORD'S day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet..." The LORD'S DAY - which days is that Richard - What is the exact translation ? Is that the JEWISH SABBATH or is the the RISEN LORD'S DAY = SUNDAY? Now everthing hangs on that!

    I'll do my own research but would be interested in more info - and be kind, my friend - you know I have studied this subject at length, attended Synagogue for about one year to learn about the Jewish customs and to be able to witness to the Brethren of Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - and obviously in my estimation "THE LORD'S DAY" would mean "SABBATH" , but I want to get your input on this one - Thank you and SHABBAT SHALOM ! IT's Friday night!
    White
    Last edited by White; 07-06-2007 at 07:56 PM. Reason: add. info & correct typos

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by yinonyavo View Post
    Blessings to all here in the name of Christ our Savior. I have always been blessed by the BW site and now what a wonderful group of brothers and sisters are here to exchange their thoughts on God's word!
    Hi there yinonyavo! Great to see you here. I do believe you will find the community of brothers and sisters here very wonderful indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by yinonyavo View Post
    All that is said here is great to think upon on. For me, the 4th chapter of Hebrews was most helpful in regards to the Sabbath and its true meaning.
    That correlation between the 4th Commandment and the 4th Chapter is one of the more stunning examples of the Divine Design of the Book of Hebrews. Its part of the grand unified design of the Bible Wheel, the Inner Wheels and Cycles, the Commandments, the Hebrew Alphabet, etc., etc., etc.!

    Quote Originally Posted by yinonyavo View Post
    Whenever I find myself confused in the area of obedience I try to remember to ask myself "what is the intended spirit behind God's command?". Since Christ summed up the law in the two great commandments (loving God and loving neighbor) this fits into what was said above about the two divisions of the commandments.....so the commandment of the Sabbath concerns the love and honoring of God. The forth chapter of Hebrews is all about the spiritual meaning behind the commandment of the Sabbath. It concerns resting from our own works, as is the origin of the Sabbath on the seventh day of creation. This meaning honors God because he alone is our salvation and only when we "rest" from our own efforts of righteousness and have faith in HIS righteousness do we truly honor and love him. Christ is indeed our Sabbath, our rest from our own works. We observe the Sabbath every time we acknowledge this truth and rest in Christ. As in other ceremonial observances of the Old Testament, they are only shadows of the real thing. The outward observance of the Sabbath day was to be a picture of our resting from our "works" to gain salvation. That is why no work was to be done on the Sabbath. It was a PICTURE.... that is how I see it anyway.... the importance or meaning was NOT a day set apart to worship, but a day set apart to REST from work.... a picture of how we are saved....not of works, lest any man should boast...........
    Wonderful explanation. I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks yinonyavo!

    Quote Originally Posted by yinonyavo View Post
    The importance of the Sabbath day emphasizes the importance of our remembering how we are saved.......that we can do NOTHING.....

    Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    Amen! And all of this is also taught with extreme clarity in the unified structure of the Bible and the Menorah, which God designed to reflect the pattern of the Seven Days of Creation. The Six paired branches correspond to the Six paired days and the Six paired Canonical Divisions. The Seventh Branch stands alone and is separated in the middle. It corresponds to the Sabbath Day and the Seventh Canonical Division which forms an undivided circle of 22 Epistles and which is characterized by the fundamental doctrine of "NO WORKS" - Salvation is by Grace through Faith. Thus there is a perfect correlation between the pattern of the Seven Days of Creation (which established the symbol of the Sabbath), the pattern of the Bible, the pattern of the Menorah (which was designed by God Himself), and the fundamental doctrine of Justification by Faith!





    In other words, God has reiteratively taught the real meaning and purpose of the Sabbath in everything from the story of Creation to the large-scale pattern of the whole Bible.

    Richard

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Dear Richard, Rose, Brother Bob, Shalag and yinonyavo,

    Shabbat Shalom ! Starts at sundown tonight - Greetings my friends !
    I better hurry, I'm not allowed to type after sundown... just kidding !
    Hello my friend,

    Sorry it has taken me a while to answer. I've been doing some rather complicated computer programming and the project conscripted all my brain cells .... but I finished the lion's share of the project yesterday, so I've regained control over most of them now... except those mutated during the process ...

    Now your little joke actually raises the most serious question, which I really hope you will try to answer. Exactly what is and is not "allowed" on the Sabbath day for Christians? Who makes the rules? We know we can't "pick up sticks" on the Sabbath, but what else is forbidden? I fear you will find very little detail about this in the Bible. All God says is that we are to "rest." What does that mean? Can you turn on a light switch? Cook a meal? Pick your nose? The Jews have invented traditions about all of that. But we know we can not trust any of their traditions on this topic because they had already gone completely astray 2000 years ago when Christ upbraided them, saying "in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:9). Christ's words against them were extreme:

    Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

    And who did he condemn with this error of inventing their own doctrines? It was the scribes and the Pharisees, and the Pharisees are the founders of what is now known as "Judaism." That is one of the main reasons they rejected Christ - He didn't fit with their man-made traditions. Would it not prove entirely ironic if we conformed ourselves to their error rather in our efforts to bring them to the truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Sabbath Rest - Sabbath Worship - Keep Sabbath Holy - Saturday ? Sunday?
    Any day of the week?
    I have tried to explain why this is a misleading question, but apparently have failed to make myself clear. Let me try again.

    The question is misleading because it assumes that God has given Christians a law concerning the day that we are to meet and worship, and so it assumes that the point of debate is "Which day does God command Christians to meet, Saturday or Sunday?"

    But that's not the question we are discussing. We are discussing whether or not God has given Christians any command at all concerning when they should meet and worship.

    It is my contention that God has not given us any fleshly commandment concerning when Christians are to meet and worship. On the contrary, God obliterated all the fleshly commandments in the flesh of Christ when He died on the cross, as it is written:

    Ephesians 2:15-16 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    Likewise, when God speaks of when and where we are to worship, He says we are to worship (through prayer) "without ceasing" and not in Jerusalem or any other place, but "in spirit and in truth."

    The Gospel is spiritual and must be understood spiritually. It makes no sense to the mind of the flesh which is concerned with fleshly obedience to external laws written in stone. That is the whole point of the Sermon on the mount, where Christ explained that fleshly observance means nothing by itself, it is the spirit, heart, and intent of the believer that matters.

    Please answer these specific points my friend. I feel that our conversation is suffering because you have ignored many of the points I have made. I am not asking you to agree with me, just that you respond to what I have written.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Now HE - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH is the key :
    Obviously in Matthew Chapter 4:4 Y'SHUA replied : "It is written: "One does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God." = (KEEP THE SABBATh HOLY).
    God also said you had to be circumcised -

    We have to make a choice to be dead to the WHOLE LAW through the finished work of Christ on the cross, or we will be condemned by the law because James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

    The Sabbath commandment is identical to the Circumcision commandment as a requirement for those under the law. You can not say we are obligated to one but not the other.

    The real problem with the idea of going back to the law is that it tramples on the blood of Christ. Now I KNOW that you do not intend to do that, but it is the inevitable consequence of going back to Jewish law. I am speaking in peace and love my friend. Do you not see the truth of my words? If not, please explain where I have erred, so I may benefit by your correction, since no one but a fool would willfully persist in known error!

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    (7) Jesus answered him, "Again it is written : "You shall not put the LORD, your GOD, to the test.." (10) Get away, Satan! It is written: "The LORD your GOD shall you worship and him alone shall you serve."
    If Y'SHUA / JESUS - the SON of GOD and GOD HIMSELF, did not come up with any other way to refute the devil but by the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD - established in the TORAH - would it not seem to be preposterous to change the SABBATh into SUNDAY or "ANY DAY OF THE WEEK"?
    Again, this is the misleading question I have been talking about. The question is not "Which day is commanded?" but "Did God give Christians any such commandment concerning a day?" The answer to this is given, in my opinion, in many verses, such as:

    Colossians 2:16-18 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
    See, that's what I've been talking about. Attempts to go back to the Law come from the fleshly mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    And I'm most worried about Matthew 7:22 : "Many will say to me on that day, "LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? Then I will declare to them solemnly, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers." the footnote says : "Entrance into the KINGDOM is only for those who do the will of the Father. Question: Is the will of the Father to keep the Sabbath or NOT to keep the Sabbath as Saturday, but any day that pleases the individual?
    There it is again. That's the same misleading question. Let me answer it again. I assert that God has not given Christians any commandment concerning Sabbath, except to say that we are free from it.

    So the REAL QUESTION is: "Has God commanded Christians to keep the Old Testament Sabbath laws?"

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Malachi, the Last book in the Old Testament says in 3:22 : "Remember the LAW OF MOSES my servant, which I enjoined upon him on Horeb, the statutes and ordinances for all Israel. Lo I will send you Elijah, the prophet, before the day of the LORD comes, the great and terrible day, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with doom. "
    Yes, the Old Testament Law ends with a command to remember the Old Testament Law.

    But the New Testament tells us that we died to the Law when we died with Christ. It seems like you are ignoring this fundamental point. Please answer it so I can understand you.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Y'SHUA declared that JOHN THE BAPTIST was this prophet (Matthew 17:11 : "Elijah will indeed come and restore all things, (12) but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also will the Son of Man suffer at their hands."

    Luke 4:16 - Jesus came to Nazareth where he had grown up and went according to his custom into the Synagogue on the Sabbath day. "The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim a year acceptable to the LORD." .... (21) He said to them, "Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing." Y'SHUA was keeping the SABBATH custom, as well as the early Christians.
    Ok, so you are saying that Christians should do everything that the disciples did when they walked with Jesus? Of course not! The disciples were Jews UNDER THE LAW and so they obeyed the law. Christ came to free us from the law through His death resurrection.

    Now you say we are supposed to be under the law because the Jews who followed Jesus were under the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Especially Acts 15 which has been cited numerous times concerning the Laws for the Gentiles to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals and blood, but absolutely no mention of "the Sabbath law". But then in verse 21 we read: For Moses, for generations now, has had those who proclaim him in every town, as he has been read in the synagogues every sabbath." - That is a CRYSTAL CLEAR indication, that it was so commonly known and so obvious that the SABBATH is the 7th day, that there was just no need to constantly point to the 4th Commandment, Keep the Sabbath Holy -
    That argument sounded pretty good, till I remembered to whom the letter was written - the Gentiles.

    The GENTILES were NOT in the habit of keeping Kosher, keeping circumcision, keeping Sabbath, or keeping any of the Torah at all, so that's why they had to specifically free them from the dietary laws and the law of circumcision in the letter. If the absence of any mention of the Sabbath proves anything, it proves it was not considered an essential of the Christian Faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    It was clearly understood that the worship day of Y'shua and of the Apostles was and is SATURDAY - SABBATH - SHABBAT... including SAUL / PAUL - the Pharisee of Pharisees. Many Passages support "SABBATH" in the New Testamanet Gospels and the book of Acts.
    That's not true: Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. (1 Cor 16:1-2).

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    We can compare that missing information to the present day struggle in the United States concerning "Marriage between ONE Man and ONE Woman". When the founders made the law of Marriage, they did not think it was necessary to specify that Marriage had to be between only ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN and not two men or two women or worse. It was understood that MARRIAGE could only be between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN. Anything else did not even enter the mind of our founding fathers. Same here - The Sabbath was so well established and kept in all the Synagogues that there was just not need to mention that it had to be the 7th day - Sabbath - the HOLY DAY!
    This is a fine answer to the question of "Which day?", but that's not the question we are discussing. The real question is:

    Has God commanded Christians to be under the Sabbath laws of the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Why the SABBATH is not stressed more - although I believe there is plenty of evidence that neither Y'SHUA / JESUS had any intention of changing the day from Saturday to Sunday nor did the Apostles want to change the typical sanctified HOLY DAY of the week -
    Again, the question is not "Which day?". You are assuming that Christians are supposed to be under the Old Testament Law. I really hope you will respond to this point because it is the fundamental point of this whole discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    the
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    SABBATH DAY was and is the DAY OF WORSHIP for our Jewish Brethren, with or without Y'SHUA in the Heart of all. Does it mean that one will go to Heaven by keeping the Sabbath Holy? NO! Absolutely NOT! I say again - NO - we are saved by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB - by the BLOOD of the Passover LAMB - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - by whose blood we are washed and white as snow. Let's put it this way : HEBREWS 9:22: "ACCORDING TO THE LAW ALMOST EVERYTHING IS PURIFIED BY BLOOD, AND WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS."

    Another way of putting the Sabbath question : - Bear with me - I'm trying to paint a word picture:

    You have a large Orchestra with hundreds or even thousands participants and you were practicing for a great Feast Day - would you want all your members come and practice each on different days of the week or would you want them to all come and practice together in preparation of that Great Feast Day - when everything will be beautiful, harmonious, glorious, peaceful like the Marriage Supper of the LAMB. We are all practicing for that special day to come. Does it not make sense to say to the LORD : "You know, I love You with all my heart, with all my soul and with all my mind and I know that YOU, LORD Y'SHUA, went to the Synagogue on the SABBATH to fulfill the requirement of the 10 COMMANDMENTS - - even though that all came through HIM so HE really didn't have to got to the Synagogue at all - HE WAS THE SYNAGOGUE - HE said that HE IS THE TEMPLE, right? - but HE went anyway for the sake of UNITY and to keep THE LAW - should we do any less but at least keep the SABBATH / SATURDAY HOLY to the best of our ability? That would seem "right" to me.
    That is a perfect example! The idea of practicing for a great feast day is right on ... but we differ in that I declare that the feast already happened when Christ died and was resurrected, and now sits enthroned on the "Throne of David."

    Its exactly the same as all the other feast days that were practiced for centuries by Israel. Passover = His Passion, Firstfruits = His Resurrection, Pentecost = The Spirit given. Sabbath = NO WORKS! Salvation by grace through faith! Rest in the finished Work of Christ!

    There is no need for a rehearsal - our Eternal Sabbath in Christ has already come!

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    In the book of Acts we find Paul preaching many times - and we find him preaching in the Synagogues of the Jews for their Sabbath - Saturday Worship Day - It is mentioned many times that Paul went to the Synagogues on the "SABBATH" to preach and teach.
    That's because thats where the Jews he was trying to convert were hanging out. He met with Christians on the first day of the week, as noted above.
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Hebrews 13:8 - GOD is the same yesterday, today and forever (Strong statement for the Saturday Sabbath, I humbly say)
    I'm sorry, but that statement has absolutely nothing to do with the sabbath. It is talking about Christ as God! How could you miss that?

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Matthew 5:18 - "
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter of the smallest tittle will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." Last I check Heaven was still above and the earth is still turning...
    Luke 16:17 - "
    It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for
    the smallest part of a letter of the law to become invalid." = strong supp
    ort of Saturday Sabbath, I say humbly...
    I think you missed the Key. Christ said nothing would pass from the Law "until all things have taken place" or "all things fulfilled" (KJV). And when were all things fulfilled? IN CHRIST! The law of circumcision was also given in the Torah, but it ended with the death of Christ. You have never addressed the problem of the Sabbath Law vs. the other Laws in the Torah. It would really help if you explained how you separate the two, since you support the Sabbath Law by saying the whole Law is still binding.

    Basically, it seems to me that you say Christians need to put themselves under the whole Torah to really please God. Granted, you are careful to say that we don't need to do this to be "saved" but then you argue that we still should do it because it is the "real" will of God, and we are not really obeying God if we are not obedient to the Sabbath Commandment. Is this what you are trying to communicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    But then I found REVELATION 1:10 - Richard - You will LOVE this:"I was in the SPIRIT on the LORD'S day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet..." The LORD'S DAY - which days is that Richard - What is the exact translation ? Is that the JEWISH SABBATH or is the the RISEN LORD'S DAY = SUNDAY? Now everthing hangs on that!
    Actually, nothing "hangs" on that verse because John didn't tell us what he meant by "Lord's Day" and there is nothing in the Bible that would settle it, and besides that, even if it were Saturday, it still wouldn't settle the question of whether or not God has given Christians a commandment to keep the Old Testament Sabbath law, and that, as should be quite clear by now I would hope, is the Real Question!

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    I'll do my own research but would be interested in more info - and be kind, my friend - you know I have studied this subject at length, attended Synagogue for about one year to learn about the Jewish customs and to be able to witness to the Brethren of Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - and obviously in my estimation "THE LORD'S DAY" would mean "SABBATH" , but I want to get your input on this one - Thank you and SHABBAT SHALOM ! IT's Friday night!
    White
    I truly hope I have come across as kind. The last thing I would ever want to do is offend you! I pray the Lord continues to give you grace to put up with my deep analysis of this issue, and that he gives me grace to conduct this conversation with humility and kindness, all for His Glory and the declaration of the Truth of His Gospel!

    I know you've studied a lot, so I trust you will have good answers for the points I raised in this post. As for your study of the Jewish customs relating to Sabbath, they certainly are interesting, but as noted above, they will tell you nothing about God's Will for Christians concerning sabbath.

    As a final note, let me ask again that you please take the time to answer the specific points I've raised. It seems like you have ignored a lot of my comments. I hope this develops more into a conversation with lots of given and take - lots of responsiveness to that actual points made on each side. That's when the conversation gets really interesting, and fruitful.

  8. #18
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    Thanks Richard! Blessings today to you and White!

    White, I agree with Richard's point that it would be more fruitful to the discussion for you to respond to his points specifically. Otherwise it makes it seem as if you are not reading or considering the other questions and responses to the discussion.

    I would take note to Ram's point that the only specifics given about the observance of the Sabbath even in the Old Testament was to REST and the sacrifices to be offered by the priests. As far as it being a day to gather together and worship, I'm not sure, but I don't believe this started until the Babylonia captivity and the introduction of the synagogue. In fact, if the observer is expecting to earn something for observing a literal Sabbath day, one could even say it is AGAINST the spiritual meaning of the Sabbath which is a picture of us RESTING from any works. One can make Sabbath observance itself a WORK....the exact opposite of what it was meant to picture. Here is an interesting quote from John Gill's commentary:

    JOHN GILL:Romans 14:6 And he that regardeth not the day, the Lord he doth not regard it; believing it is the will of the Lord, that all distinction of days should cease; and that the law of commandments contained in ordinances, respecting such Jewish days, is abolished by the Lord Jesus Christ; and that it is to the honour the Lord not to observe them: for to regard the days of the feast of tabernacles, is tacitly to say, that the Word has not tabernacled among us; and to observe he days of the passover, is virtually to deny that our passover is sacrificed for us; and to keep the day of Pentecost, is all one as to affirm, that the firstfruits of the Spirit have not been given; and to regard a new moon, is in effect to say, that the church has not received evangelical light from Christ, the sun of righteousness; and to keep a seventh day sabbath, is a strong insinuation, as if Christ the true sabbath, in whom we have our spiritual and eternal rest, is not come; however, it is to the Lord that the stronger brother and more confirmed believer disregards any of those days; and it is to his own master he stands or falls, nor is he to be judged of man’s judgment: and the same is the case of the eater, or non-eater of meats forbidden by the law:

  9. #19
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    Hi Yinonyano Welcome to our cyber family (as Joel calls us)

    Good point in noting that the Sabbath began as a day to honor God by ceasing from work. This acknowledges God who's work created all things!

    When we truly keep the Sabbath, we are resting in Christ our Sabbath, thus ceasing form our own works totally focusing on the work of Christ, and honoring God.

    So Christ is our perpetual Sabbath.

    On the other hand, Sunday the first day of the week, began as a celebration of the risen Christ, a time to worship and praise God for all He has done.

    Praise God for evermore

    Rose

  10. #20
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    Thanks Rose Great to be here.

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