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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by deb View Post
    Ohpp, I was wrong, it isn't 10 days. It is 45 extra days. It isn't the Revelation, it is Daniel

    Daniel 12:11-12 nkj
    "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
    I don't know how either the 1290 days or the 1335 days fit into the big picture yet.

    Anybody else have any ideas?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #42
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    Posted by RAM:
    Now concerning the toes: First, the Jews were a political power and so could be set "along side" the others. And yes, they were so weak they were like clay compared to Roman iron. I see no problem there.
    Refresh my memory here.

    When Israel wanted to be as the 'other nations' having a fleshly king God (1Samuel 9:17) gave them King Saul. As far as 'earthly political standing' I would say this event gave them that. Israel's last king was Hoshea (?) around the time of the Assyrian captivity and Judah's last king was Zedekiah (?) around the time of the Babylonian captivity.

    At that time of Roman occupation it appears the Jews were 'recognized' as a people - just as we recognize different ethnic races in the USA (African Americans, Spanish, Italian, Irish, etc) but that does not making them a 'ruling political entity. At this point of time the nation of Israel, the Jews and the dispersed 10 tribes, lacked a 'king', and thus were not a 'political power'.

    As far as Herod - his appointment by the 'Roman senate' hardly qualifies him as a 'true king'
    Herod the Great was the son of Antipater of Idumaea. Appointed king of Judaea B.C. 40 by the Roman Senate at the suggestion of Antony and with the consent of Octavian, he at length overcame the great opposition which the country made to him and took possession of the kingdom B.C. 37; and after the battle of Actium, he was confirmed by Octavian, whose favour he ever enjoyed. He was brave and skilled in war, learned and sagacious; but also extremely suspicious and cruel. Hence he destroyed the entire royal family of Hasmonaeans, put to death many of the Jews that opposed his government, and proceeded to kill even his dearly beloved wife Mariamne of the Hasmonaean line and his two sons she had borne him. By these acts of bloodshed, and especially by his love and imitation of Roman customs and institutions and by the burdensome taxes imposed upon his subjects, he so alienated the Jews that he was unable to regain their favour by his splendid restoration of the temple and other acts of munificence. He died in the 70th year of his age, the 37th year of his reign, the 4th before the Dionysian era. In his closing years John the Baptist and Christ were born; Matthew narrates that he commanded all the male children under two years old in Bethlehem to be slain.
    And as far as Herod Antipas, his appointment as 'King' was also by the Romans -as well as his successor(s):
    Herod surnamed "Antipas", was the son of Herod the Great and Malthace, a Samaritan woman. After the death of his father he was appointed by the Romans tetrarch of Galilee and Peraea. His first wife was the daughter of Aretas, king of Arabia; but he subsequently repudiated her and took to himself Herodias, the wife of his brother Herod Philip; and in consequence Aretas, his father-in-law, made war against him and conquered him. He cast John the Baptist into prison because John had rebuked him for this unlawful connection; and afterwards, at the instigation of Herodias, he ordered him to be beheaded. Induced by her, too, he went to Rome to obtain from the emperor the title of king. But in consequence of the accusations brought against him by Herod Agrippa I, Caligula banished him (A.D.to Lugdunum in Gaul, where he seems to have died. He was light minded, sensual and vicious.
    Herod Agrippa I was the son of Aristobulus and Berenice, and grandson of Herod the Great. After various changes in fortune, he gained the favour of Caligula and Claudius to such a degree that he gradually obtained the government of all of Palestine, with the title of king. He died at Caesarea, A.D. 44, at the age of 54, in the seventh [or the 4th, reckoning from the extension of his dominions by Claudius] year of his reign, just after having ordered James the apostle, son of Zebedee, to be slain, and Peter to be cast into prison: Acts 12:
    (Herod) Agrippa II, son of Herod Agrippa I. When his father died he was a youth of seventeen. In A.D. 48 he received from Claudius Caesar the government of Chalcis, with the right of appointing the Jewish high priests, together with the care and oversight of the temple at Jerusalem. Four years later Claudius took from him Chalcis and gave him instead a larger domain, of Batanaea, Trachonitis, and Gaulanitis, with the title of king. To those reigns Nero, in A.D. 53, added Tiberias and Taricheae and Peraean Julias, with fourteen neighbouring villages. He is mentioned in Acts 25 and 26. In the Jewish war, although he strove in vain to restrain the fury of the seditious and bellicose populace, he did not desert to the Roman side. After the fall of Jerusalem, he was vested with praetorian rank and kept the kingdom entire until his death, which took place in the third year of the emperor Trajan, [the 73rd year of his life, and the 52nd of his reign] He was the last representative of the Herodian dynasty.
    As far as prophecy I don't see the Jewish nation as a viable political power - even as to be seen as 'toes' because of their Roman appointment. To me it was simply the Roman way of controlling / bringing order to a race of people under THEIR czarist authority.
    Last edited by shalag; 08-05-2007 at 03:39 PM. Reason: edit pasting
    Jeremiah 20:9 " But His word was in my heart like a burning fire Shut up in my bones; I was weary of holding it back, And I could not.

  3. #43
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    The week of weeks

    1,290 days is three and one-half years.

    3 1/2 years seems to equal "time, times and half a time which equals 42 months.

    The week of years is consistently divided in half by the one definite time marker, the entrance of the lawless one into the holy of holies.

    The first three and a half years seems to begin with a covenant which will allow traditional Hebrews to begin sacrifice on the temple mount, but he (the covenant maker) will desecrate the place of sacrifice (Matthew 24:15) revealing himself as the man of lawlessness. The next 1,290 days (42 months, or 3 1/2 years, or time, times and half a time) will be extremely distressful. This will be the time of the bowl judgments and the great third woe. This will be the time that the woman of Revelation 12 flees and is hidden in the place prepared for her. This will be the era of the false and wicked trinity, when the beast of this trinity, the little horn and his 10 kings war with the Lamb. It will end with the 2nd coming and the peaceable kingdom will be ushered in.

    The first 1,290 days will be the time of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. There does not seem to be a time marker for the breaking of the 7 seals and the first 6 trumpets. At our current place on the time line, it seems we can only count backwards from the time of the lawless one entering the holy place to put them in their proper nitch on the time line.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by shalag View Post
    Refresh my memory here.

    When Israel wanted to be as the 'other nations' having a fleshly king God (1Samuel 9:17) gave them King Saul. As far as 'earthly political standing' I would say this event gave them that. Israel's last king was Hoshea (?) around the time of the Assyrian captivity and Judah's last king was Zedekiah (?) around the time of the Babylonian captivity.
    Yes, those facts are correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by shalag View Post
    At that time of Roman occupation it appears the Jews were 'recognized' as a people - just as we recognize different ethnic races in the USA (African Americans, Spanish, Italian, Irish, etc) but that does not making them a 'ruling political entity. At this point of time the nation of Israel, the Jews and the dispersed 10 tribes, lacked a 'king', and thus were not a 'political power'.

    As far as Herod - his appointment by the 'Roman senate' hardly qualifies him as a 'true king'
    Granted - but on the other hand, the nation of Israel was a political nation -weak as clay against the Roman domination, but a nation none the less.

    But I think this focus on the clay as a nation is not the point of the prophecy. The point is that the clay represents the people dominated. That is why they would not "stick" to the iron - they were antithetical to Rome.

    I am curious, how do you see the "big picture" of Daniel 2? Here's how I see it:

    Four Kingdoms - ending in Rome. The image destroyed by Christ the Stone in the first century, though it took a lot of years for the full destruction of the final kingdom.

    When you look at this big picture, what do you think the clay is? What is the stone? When did it strike?

    I don't understand yet why there is any confusion over this prophesy. Am I just being dense here?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #45
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    Clay

    You know, it isn't that unusual for Isaiah or Jeremiah to compare the people of God to clay.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by deb View Post
    1,290 days is three and one-half years.
    I looks like you are thinking about the 1260 days = 42 x 30 = 42 months of 30 days each. Granted, it is tantalizingly close to the 1290, but we have an extra "month" that needs explanation. That's why I said I didn't understand it. I am, of course, completely familiar with the connection between months, days, and years as they are represented in Revelation as 3.5 years, 42 months, and 1260 days.

    Quote Originally Posted by deb View Post
    3 1/2 years seems to equal "time, times and half a time which equals 42 months.
    Yes, that is the common interpretation, and it is probably correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by deb View Post
    The week of years is consistently divided in half by the one definite time marker, the entrance of the lawless one into the holy of holies.
    Oh ... I thought you were talking about a time marker for the 70 weeks. I gather now that you were talking about a time marker for the division final 70th week. Your interpretation is the one that is usually taught these days. But I don't think it is correct for a number of reasons.
    1. Daniel's prophecy focuses on the New Covenant confirmed by Christ. The verse that you seem to be applying to the antichrist is actually speaking of Christ.
    2. Daniel's prophecy appears to have been fuflilled in the first century. There is no biblical support for the idea of a 2000+ gap in verse 27.
    3. The Book of Revelation doesn't use the term anti-christ. That would be particularly odd if John intended us to think of "the anti-christ" since he is the only biblical author that uses that term.
    I have other reasons that I am sure we will discuss as this conversation continues.

    Quote Originally Posted by deb View Post
    The first three and a half years seems to begin with a covenant which will allow traditional Hebrews to begin sacrifice on the temple mount,
    That is very creative Bible reading! (Said friend to friend, of course!) The only thing Daniel 9:27 says about the sacrifice is that "he (the covenant maker)" will cause it to cease! It says nothing about causing it to start again after 2000 years so that he can cause it so cease again. This is exactly the same problem with the idea that the Temple must be rebuilt so it can be destroyed again. Why not just acknowledge that the sacrifices ceased and the Temple was destroyed in the first century, and that those things must have been the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy because they are what he prophesied?

    Quote Originally Posted by deb View Post
    but he (the covenant maker) will desecrate the place of sacrifice (Matthew 24:15) revealing himself as the man of lawlessness. The next 1,290 days (42 months, or 3 1/2 years, or time, times and half a time) will be extremely distressful. This will be the time of the bowl judgments and the great third woe. This will be the time that the woman of Revelation 12 flees and is hidden in the place prepared for her. This will be the era of the false and wicked trinity, when the beast of this trinity, the little horn and his 10 kings war with the Lamb. It will end with the 2nd coming and the peaceable kingdom will be ushered in.
    I understand how you could come to those conclusions, but I don't think they will withstand scrutiny. The Book of Revelation was not given as an end-time screen-play. As I see it, the woman represents faithful Israel from whom Christ came. And as the people of God who believed God, she believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, she had the "testimony of Jesus Christ" and so became what we now know as the "Christian Church." The devil tried to murder the young church because he knew if he could stop it then in the first century he would be done with it. And he knew his time was very short, because if the first Christians survived and multiplied, we would spread over the whole world and there would be no way he could ever stop us. And so his wrath was FIERCE against the early church. It looks to me like the book of Revelation is talking about that time period (to a large extent).

    Quote Originally Posted by deb View Post
    The first 1,290 days will be the time of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. There does not seem to be a time marker for the breaking of the 7 seals and the first 6 trumpets. At our current place on the time line, it seems we can only count backwards from the time of the lawless one entering the holy place to put them in their proper nitch on the time line.
    How do you account for the discrepancy between 1290 and 1260?


    Thanks for the great input Deb. I look forward to walking through this with you. I know I will learn a lot.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by deb View Post
    You know, it isn't that unusual for Isaiah or Jeremiah to compare the people of God to clay.
    Precisely my point, as stated in an earlier post. Thanks for the confirmation deb.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #48
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    And where are mine?

    Quote Originally Posted by deb View Post
    Thank you for the sweet welcome!
    You are most welcome for the greeting, and truly welcome here!

    And thanks for the pretty picture. Did you know that God created sea life on the Fifth Day, and that Life itself is geometrically based on the Number 5, like that sanddollar you posted?

    I talk about that here: http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Heh_Day.asp

    Isn't our God AMAZING?



    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #49
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    Clay etc.

    Hi Richard!

    Good luck with the book. Let's hope this guy in Seattle can be an outlet for extending the word of God through the Bible Wheel. As we all know, it is an awesome witness to the authenticity of the Bible.

    Getting back to the clay thing, it's not because I have my own theories as to who the Stone kingdom might be that I don't buy the connection of Jews and clay. After your explanations (I think three times now), nothing gels still. And for the same reason. The whole point of this image is political power and rulership. Lumping the Jews in with it just doesn't fit (as I'm saying for the third time, I think). I'm very much with shalag on this point.

    After having first come across various interpretations of this prophecy 25 years ago, yours is the first time I've ever heard someone say the clay is the Jews. And mate, I've heard them all! If the Jews are the clay, they simply have to be part of the power sharing and the dominating force, even if they are the weaker partner. I say that because, to reiterate, the statue is all about world domination (world domination in the biblical sense, not in our modern sense). The Jews dominated nobody, and were not on a power sharing basis with the Romans. After that reasoning, they cannot be the clay.

    Good questions in your last post. If the Stone is Jesus himself historically, then the Roman Empire never fell at his death and resurrection, which might be a bit of a problem to some people. However, if the Stone is part of a prophetic complex that holds together around Jesus, then we can be more flexible with our interpretation. By prophetic complex I mean scriptures such as Genesis 49:24 (you got me on that one, bro! But honestly, that's not why I have problems with the Jews being the clay); Psalm 118:22,23; Matthew 21:42-44; 1 Peter 2:7-10 etc.

    I don't know who exactly the clay is, but there is iron in there with it which suggests to me it is an extension of Rome's ideals, yet of a different quality. I would be looking for roman catholicism as the leading political force trying to bind the components together. I'm currently in favour of the iron and clay being monarchic France and the holy roman empire, both roman catholic and intimately bound to the papacy throughout their existence. This would then lead me to speculate that the Stone kingdom could conceivably be the good old US of A. Why? Well, within thirty years of America's Declaration of Independence, both the French monarchy and the holy roman empire lost their temporal power, and that after almost 1000 years of existence!

    As for the Stone kingdom even remotely having anything to do with America, well, let's just say it ties in with ethnic Israel coming out of her punishment. But I am not going to go over that again, so don't bother asking me to. The quickest evidence I can offer is the Pledge of Allegiance - "One Nation Under God" - I mean, what does that mean?! What are you saying about yourself? And the fact that you cannot buy or sell in America without declaring that you believe in God (even if you don't believe in God!), because it's written on ALL your currency: IN GOD WE TRUST. I mean, what's up with that?! What is America saying about herself with this? (Your country must be the easiest country in the world to witness in; all you have to do is pull out the money and you've immediately got a leading line to witness to someone. Even your money witnesses to who you are!).

    Anyway, I know you're gonna boo me off the stage now, so I'll pack up my ventriloquist's doll and be on my way! Just one last thing: "Your country fills the earth with fruit!" Sorry, that doll won't get into the suitcase. There, he's locked away now.

    God bless you, bro!

    Stephen
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  10. #50
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    Happily, yes, I knew that about life-5

    It has been nearly 10 years since I have done a study on (no insult meant here, just what I understand) end time events. I don't think I threw away any of my study notes, but they are not in any kind of order. Maybe this will be a good chance to organize everything.

    I am leaving for Montana tomorrow, so if I am silent for a season it isn't because I took my ball and went home. It could be that I am having trouble with WiFi.

    Deborah... on the road again

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