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  1. #21
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    ?

    Hi Richard!

    I'm sorry, but that interpretation doesn't gel with me. It's hard to justify the Jews being the clay. I'm sure that's wrong.

    The interjection of the word [fourth] is also to be questioned. Yes, the iron (Rome) is part of the feet, but as I said I have major difficulties with the assumption that the clay is the Jews. I really don't believe that that is the correct interpretation of the symbol at all. I mean, check out verses 41 and 42. Jews and Romans as part of a kingdom? I don't think so. I'd be surprised if others shared your view.

    I also would question your assumption that the extension is spatial, not temporal. Up to this point the narrative has been all about temporal extension. Why suddenly change the rules now?

    I also would question the assumption that it is Rome the Stone strikes. It seems to be more correct to speak of the kings of verse 44. Who are these kings? Well, they might refer to the whole image, all the kingdoms referred to. Or they might refer to the feet of iron and clay. I think the text tells us it's more than just Rome that's being struck.

    It is interesting that some writers have made a connection to the ten kings of Revelation, relating them to the ten toes of this vision. I'm unsure of this connection, but it's feasible. Some writers have made a point of ten kingdoms coming out of the fall of the Roman Empire. I don't know my history of this period so well so I cannot say whether their words are worth listening to or not. It looks like the history books need a thorough going over.

    Another question I have concerns the stone. Yes, I agree absolutely that it is representative of Jesus Christ. But what exactly is it? Is it the church? Or is it something else? I think this whole 'stone kingdom' issue is quite fascinating. The stone symbol also appears under the jurisdiction of Joseph, too, as part of his stunning birthright (Genesis 49:24). Is the 'stone kingdom' related to this prophecy in some way? If so, how does this amplify our understanding of what the 'stone kingdom' is?

    I don't go along with your conclusion that a reading other than your own leads to a flood of baseless conclusions. That's one way of shutting down the debate. I believe we are supposed to speculate on the meaning of these symbols, to find the best fit. I also don't believe it means that we have to fall into a 2000 year gap theory, with a revived roman empire, which theory you know I have no time for.

    I don't know what all the kingdoms in the prophecy refer to, but I just don't think your explanation fits. I don't see any kingdom divided between Roman and Jew in there. Since when did the Jews have the privilege of co-regency with the Romans?

    What do others think?

    Stephen
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  2. #22
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    I'm enjoying the discussion of this thread. I've tried to read these prophecies and google it to find information on these subjects but am led to the modern way of thinking ( was it CI Scoffield who came up with this? ).

    What about the disciples questioning Jesus in Acts 1 whether Jesus Christ will set up his kingdom at that point of time?

    What about The stone which the builders rejected in Matthew 22 ( or 21? ) and anyone who falls on the stone and when the stone falls on anyone? I don't understand the symbology of that statement.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Hi Richard!

    I'm sorry, but that interpretation doesn't gel with me. It's hard to justify the Jews being the clay. I'm sure that's wrong.
    Hello there Stephen!

    God specifically calls Israel "clay" in a number of places, such as Jeremiah 18:

    Jeremiah 18:6 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    The interjection of the word [fourth] is also to be questioned. Yes, the iron (Rome) is part of the feet, but as I said I have major difficulties with the assumption that the clay is the Jews. I really don't believe that that is the correct interpretation of the symbol at all. I mean, check out verses 41 and 42. Jews and Romans as part of a kingdom? I don't think so. I'd be surprised if others shared your view.
    I don't understand your rejection of this interpretation at all. Everyone knows that Judea was under Roman rule and as such was part of the Roman empire at the time of Christ. The interpretation seems to fit perfectly.

    As for the interjection of the word "fourth" - that was to make the fact that there is nothing in the text that suggests fifth kingdom. The fourth kingdom is listed as the fourth kingdom, and then the same kingdom is further described with the words "the kingdom shall be divided, etc." I see no sustainable objection to my interpretation as yet, though I do, of course, retain an open mind and will consider any challenges presented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    I also would question your assumption that the extension is spatial, not temporal. Up to this point the narrative has been all about temporal extension. Why suddenly change the rules now?
    There is no change of the "rules." The problem is that you assumed that the extension must be temporal because the there are four kingdoms described in temporal succession. But that does NOT suggest that the description of the elements of the fourth kingdom itself should be seen in a temporal sense.

    As it stands, the interpretation of the toes makes perfect sense to me because Roman was ruling in Judea and so the iron mixed with the clay, but the two did not cleave. There is not a hint of any ambiguity that I can see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    I also would question the assumption that it is Rome the Stone strikes. It seems to be more correct to speak of the kings of verse 44. Who are these kings? Well, they might refer to the whole image, all the kingdoms referred to. Or they might refer to the feet of iron and clay. I think the text tells us it's more than just Rome that's being struck.
    Let's look at the verse you cited:

    Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    It happens in the days of "these kings." The most obvious interpretation seems to be that "these kings" refers to the rulers of the Roman government, since that is the immediate antecedent. Note also that there were many rulers, first in Rome and then in their extended territories (toes) such as Judea. It seems to be referring to those kings, like king Herod. But regardless of our conclusion on this point, it does not seem to strongly impact the identification of Rome as the legs and feet, and Judea as the clay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    It is interesting that some writers have made a connection to the ten kings of Revelation, relating them to the ten toes of this vision. I'm unsure of this connection, but it's feasible. Some writers have made a point of ten kingdoms coming out of the fall of the Roman Empire. I don't know my history of this period so well so I cannot say whether their words are worth listening to or not. It looks like the history books need a thorough going over.
    Yes, we definitely need to review history to get a proper interpretation here. As for the Ten Kings of Rome and Revelation, that seems plausible, and it seems to fit like a glove in the interpretation I have presented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Another question I have concerns the stone. Yes, I agree absolutely that it is representative of Jesus Christ. But what exactly is it? Is it the church? Or is it something else? I think this whole 'stone kingdom' issue is quite fascinating. The stone symbol also appears under the jurisdiction of Joseph, too, as part of his stunning birthright (Genesis 49:24). Is the 'stone kingdom' related to this prophecy in some way? If so, how does this amplify our understanding of what the 'stone kingdom' is?
    Whatever other symbolic overtones were intended, it seems obvious to me that the kingdom is the kingdom of God proclaimed in the Gospel. Anything else seems to miss the primary point of the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    I don't go along with your conclusion that a reading other than your own leads to a flood of baseless conclusions. That's one way of shutting down the debate.
    Well whether it does or does not is not a questions because we know with certainty that it did in fact lead to a flood of speculation. You yourself have state the absurdity of the 2000+ year gap theory.

    But I understand your point about "shutting down the debate." That was not my intent. Sorry! <I need a "repent" emoticon>

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    I believe we are supposed to speculate on the meaning of these symbols, to find the best fit. I also don't believe it means that we have to fall into a 2000 year gap theory, with a revived roman empire, which theory you know I have no time for.
    Exactly - those are the baseless speculations I was talking about. It seems like you agreed with the first two, but got miffed by my inclusion of the third temple as the third "baseless speculation," correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    I don't know what all the kingdoms in the prophecy refer to, but I just don't think your explanation fits. I don't see any kingdom divided between Roman and Jew in there. Since when did the Jews have the privilege of co-regency with the Romans?
    The idea of a "co-regency" is not needed to understand the prophecy about the Jews being under the "foot" of the Roman rule. The intent of the prophecy seems perfectly clear. The Roman rule was over Rome proper and the territories it ruled, such as Judea, represented by the toes mixed with clay.

    Everything seems to fit together with perfect clarity and divine perfection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    What do others think?

    Stephen
    I too am very interested in what others think. As it stands, I am not aware of any sustainable challenge to the interpretation I have set forth. Of course, that doesn't mean that Stephen didn't present one! It may be that his objections are totally obvious and sustainable, and that me and my little brain just didn't understand them. I am therefore, as always, open for correction.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I'm enjoying the discussion of this thread. I've tried to read these prophecies and google it to find information on these subjects but am led to the modern way of thinking ( was it CI Scoffield who came up with this? ).
    Scoffield was the popularizor or the dispensational ideas of Darby. For the most part, I see those ideas as modern inventions loaded with unfounded assumptions that ignore the historical fulfillment of God's prophetic Word.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    What about the disciples questioning Jesus in Acts 1 whether Jesus Christ will set up his kingdom at that point of time?
    That shows that disciples were rather slow to learn the full plan of God. But they got with the program at Pentecost when Peter proclaimed that all the prophecies were fulfilled in Christ and the Gospel:

    Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    That's what the Bible is all about. The kingdom of God, not an earthly kingdom in the middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    What about The stone which the builders rejected in Matthew 22 ( or 21? ) and anyone who falls on the stone and when the stone falls on anyone? I don't understand the symbology of that statement.
    The stone is Christ. The disobedient unbelievers stumble over Him and are "crushed." The beleivers too are "broken" on that Stone, but in a different way, as it is written:

    KJV Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #25
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    Psalm 51:7 & 17


    "Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow" and "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." 7/22/1996 to present...


    Thus is our walk with our LORD and SAVIOR - the rock of salvation to some, a stumbling block to others -
    as John 1:1 says:
    "In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD. He was in the beginning with GOD. All things came to be through HIM, and without HIM nothing came to be. What came to be through HIM was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it
    . v. 1-5 (= Genesis 1:5 Let there be light...).

    Verse 14: "And the WORD became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory of the Father's ONLY SON, full of grace and truth. ... v. 16: From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace, because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through JESUS CHRIST. No one has ever seen God. The ONLY SON, GOD, who is at the Father's side, as revealed HIM."

    We may not understand everything, but this we do understand : That JESUS CHRIST is the only begotten SON of GOD the Father and GOD the Father and GOD the Son and GOD the HOLY SPIRIT are ONE. When we are filled with the HOLY SPIRIT we will ask and then receive, we will seek and then find and we will knock and the door - to Heaven - will be opened.

    Like many of you I started listening in 1989 - the year I accepted Jesus Christ as my LORD and Savior - to those tribulation preachers because who would not want to meet JESUS in the clouds and watch all those "unraptured" go through the tribulation? But in the meantime, I have come to the realization that GOD does NOT work this way. Who actually does what GOD says? Who would HE rapture? and how would HIS WORD be fulfilled if "the Church" left all at once. No, I don't believe in the Tribulation / Rapture any more, but I do believe that GOD will reveal HIMSELF for all to see (not in physical form) to fulfill many of the Old Testament Scriptures who have not been fulfilled as stated elsewhere. I still believe and pray daily that JUDAH / JEWS will accept HIM as LORD and SAVIOR and I pray that this will be soon... I do have more definite ideas about the "temple" but will share later.

    Richard, I'm interested to find our more on the Revelation 22 / Song of Solomon 22 book etc. as you alluded to. "22" is such an important number as you know and Hebrew 9:22 is my chosen verse now - see below - and funny as it is, my reading today at OLL was LEVITICUS 25 - the day of Atonment - Yom Kippur - which falls on 9/22/2007 (see my more detailed post under "Who are God's Children?")

    See also my last post there concerning the "Prophecy Code", www.prophecycodebook.com, by Jeffrey A. Manty - interesting theory - and 2520 lunar years from 587 to 1897 etc. to 1948 and 1967... all symmetrically displayed on a 9 branch Menorah. Everybody has a little right and a little wrong, or a lot wrong, depending on the theory, but GOD is a GOD of MERCY. Again: GOD has shut up ALL in disobedience so that HE can show MERCY to all. All meaning all! May HE then have MERCY on us and open our eyes to HIS TRUTH and HIS PLAN for all of mankind - Jews, Christians and Muslims ... etc. May we continue to PRAY WITHOUT CEASING for Salvation to the Jew first then the Gentile...

    Amen & Amen
    Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land, America and all who participate in this worthwile effort to proclaim the GOOD NEWS ....
    White
    Last edited by White; 08-04-2007 at 11:55 AM.
    "According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22

    "Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure; wash me, make me whiter than snow" Psalm 51:9

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    To understand the language of the New Testament, we must know how God spoke in the Old Testament. The first part of Matt 24:29 seems to be using the standard biblical language for the judgment of God on a nation. The "falling stars" represent the fall of governmental rulers from their positions of power. The sun will not give its light means that their "days have grown dark" because they have been destroyed from the earth. God used almost exactly the same language when He used the Babylonians to destroy first Temple in 586 BC:

    Ezekiel 32:7-11 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD. 9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known. 10 Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall. 11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.
    Likewise, if Revelation is talking about the same events, which is the only way the word "soon" could retain its normal meaning, then the "coming with clouds" represents the coming of Christ in judgment on Jerusalem. This coheres with the opening passage of Revelation:

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
    As far as 'cloud (s)' - the first reference to 'cloud' in Genesis and Ezekiel's reference says:

    Ge 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
    Ge 9:14 And it shall come to pass, whenI bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
    Ge 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; andI will look upon it, thatI may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

    Eze 1:28
    As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the gloryof the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
    1. (Piel) to make appear, produce, bring (clouds)
    2. (Poel) to practise soothsaying, conjure
      1. to observe times, practice soothsaying or spiritism or magic or augury or witchcraft
      2. soothsayer, enchanter, sorceress, diviner, fortuneteller, barbarian, Meonenim (participle)
    I'm looking at this as far as 'observing the times'. When the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us - Jesus declared John the Baptist as 'Elijah'. Elijah is one who called down rain. The King of Babylon had 'seven times' passover him. Daniel 4:32/33 [27-37]. In Daniel 4:34 - a play of DOOR and the GLORY OF THE LORD - he returns to his understanding. I see the 'times' as the seven feasts.

    1. Passover - Jesus Christ as the Passover Lamb - (1Co 5:7) visible fulfillment
    2. Unleavened bread - John (43) chapter 6 = 49 (7x7) Jesus declares He is the bread from heaven - visible fulfillment
    3. Firstfruits - Jesus is the firstfruits from the dead - visible fulfillment (Matthew 28:6 (2x37) 1Corinthians 15:20)
    4. Pentecost - The Holy Spirit is given (Acts 2) - visible fulfillment
    Acts 2:1 - sound Acts 2:3 = 49/ 7x7 - sight -

    Acts (44) 2:3 (5) = 49/ 7x7 And there appeared to them divided tongues of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
    As yet I don't see a complete visible fulfillment of Rosh ha Shanah, Yom Kippur, or Sukkot. There are a lot of 'trumpets' blowing in Revelation and it sounds like a lot of tribulation to me. Even though Atonement was sealed on the cross - the atonement for the land (as I see it [don't cringe Richard]) will not be complete until Christ returns and reigns for 1000 years which would concurrently fulfill Tabernacles.

    5. Feast of Trumpets
    6. Atonement
    7. Tabernacles
    Ac 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

    Da 7:13 - 'I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. Which shall not pass away, And His kindgom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
    15" [7x7] I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
    Mt 24:30 -Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    There will be a visible fulfillment

    This shows how all the interpretations work together. If we reject the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies in the first century, then we become confused about the meaning of Revelation. And vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I know this does not "settle the issue." We have all been fed on a diet of full futuristic interpretations of Daniel's 70th Week, the Olivet Discourse, and the whole book of Revelation, despite the overwhelming evidence that much of it was fulfilled in the first century. So I expect it will take a fair amount of discussion for us to cut through the fog and to get some bright sunlit clarity on God's Word so we can expose all the assumptions we have imported into the text and see what it is really saying without a lot of inventions like 2000+ year gaps and rebuilt Temples. Richard
    You know, if we do consider the seventy weeks complete, the abomination of desolation as having taken place, and the 'seventh day' as 'Sabbath' - the remission of sin/the rest (from evil) (Passover/Calvary) - I am still reminded of the fifth seal where it says 'you will have tribulation 10 days'. Since Jesus was always saying, "He who has ears, let him hear'" significant of 'trumpet' - there would yet be 3 more days. And for me this would take meditating on His time in the grave and the 'visible revelation' of the firstfruits.
    1Co (46) 15:23 (38) - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    Now experiencing brain fatigue!


    Jeremiah 20:9 " But His word was in my heart like a burning fire Shut up in my bones; I was weary of holding it back, And I could not.

  7. #27
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    Jews?

    Good morning, All!

    Just a few points relating to the Romans and the Jews. I still cannot agree with the clay being symbolic of the Jews. From my understanding, the statue at Daniel 2 represents world powers: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. The last of these is relevant to the feet of iron and clay. In no sense could the Jews be placed alongside any of these four powers. They were a fairly weak and minor territory conquered by the Romans. There were many suchlike peoples subject to Roman will. They would also then have to be the clay. This would then problematise the first three kingdoms, because we would then have to include all their conquered territories as some sort of amalgam mixed in with them.

    To my mind, the whole point of the iron and clay is that the fourth kingdom would become divided. Rome never split up into Rome and Judaea. The relationship was always one of conqueror and vanquished. For this reason, and others beside, I hold the identification of the Jews as the clay as untenable. There are far more easier fits from history. The split into Western and Eastern Rome fits the bill seamlessly, with headquarters at Rome and Constantinople. The later break-up and revival of catholic Rome under Charlemagne also fits the bill historically, his kingdom eventually being divided into monarchic France, and the holy roman empire (Germany). This also fits the bill quite nicely. I think we need to study history to find what Daniel was talking about, particularly the history of the downfall of the Roman Empire, and what became of it.

    In regards to a third temple, an antichrist world leader and the like, I do not believe in any of that. Screeds have been written debunking that fairytale, and there is no need for me to add to the sorry affair.

    Having said all that, I admit that I haven't reached a conclusion yet as to who exactly Daniel was writing about in chapter 2. But one thing I absolutely hold to is that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 were fulfilled almost 2000 years ago. That is an absolute certainty for me. Schofield has got a lot of explaining to do for leading people astray with his dreadful misinterpretation of God's word. To me, I place him in the category of being a false prophet.

    Stephen
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  8. #28
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    It seems clear that, at this time, Richard and Stephen see Daniel's prophecies as being fulfilled at the time of Christ, and the subsequent destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

    Whereas, Shalag and I (Joel), see yet things to come that have not been fulfilled (Shalag's recent post contains some observations that need not to quickly discarded).

    Please clarify if there is something missing from my simplified summary.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  9. #29
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    Like the 10 days of tribulation ? I have wondered about that myself - the most important 10 days I know of would be the 10 days from Roshashanah to Yom Kippur... this year 9/22 hence my verse Hebrews 9:22) any interpretation?

    followed by the feast of Tabernacle - Sukkot

    Shalom
    White
    "According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22

    "Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure; wash me, make me whiter than snow" Psalm 51:9

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    It seems clear that, at this time, Richard and Stephen see Daniel's prophecies as being fulfilled at the time of Christ, and the subsequent destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

    Whereas, Shalag and I (Joel), see yet things to come that have not been fulfilled (Shalag's recent post contains some observations that need not to quickly discarded).

    Please clarify if there is something missing from my simplified summary.

    Joel
    Good morning Joel!

    Thanks for the simple summary. Very helpful to keep things clear.

    I would like to know which parts of Daniel 2 and 9 that you think have been fulfilled in the past, if any.

    Thanks!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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