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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Richard, do you see any distinction (difference), in the parousia of II Thessalonians 2:1, and that of
    II Thessalonians 2:8?

    The first includes our assembling to Him.

    The second describes the "discarding" of the lawless one.

    What I am hearing you say is that these events are not literal, but are figurative in that they describe Christ's victory over sin. Is that an accurate statement as to how you see these verses?

    Joel
    Hey there Joel,

    I haven't reviewed these verses in depth for a long time, so I may be adjusting my statements about them as the conversation progresses.

    I think the "coming of the Lord" meant here is one event. It refers to our "gathering together unto Him" and the revelation of the "Wicked one" at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, also known as the Day of the Lord, also known as the "End of the World."

    The things represented in symbol seem to be the Church (Temple) and the "son of perdition" (Devil) whom the Lord shall destroy with the spirit of His mouth when He returns "to judge the living and the dead."

    That's my first take. I'm sure you might have a question or two that will force me to reconsider. And that is very good!

    Richard

    Edit to add: Rose reminded me that the literal Temple was still standing at the time Paul wrote this, so it may be that his readers would have understood him to be talking about that temple, and the "evil one" in the temple was the high priests (who were notoriously wicked at that time) who were destroyed in the "coming of the Lord" in judgment in 70 AD. So I've got a lot of thinking to do on this still.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Ok. I agree, in fact I had heard but I haven't verified, that the temple in 2 Thessalonian 2 and John 2, where he spoke of the temple of his body and surprisingly even his disciples didn't understand at first in that chapter, they have the same Greek word, right?
    Hi Gilgal,

    Glad we are tracking on that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    But what about Daniel 9 where it says the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary which turned out to be the Romans under the guidance of general Titus. But this means that there is a prince that's coming in the near future. An Antichrist. Actually the word Antichrist has two meanings: opposed to Christ and replacing Christ.
    Excellent question. To understand my answer, we must remember that God used the Assyrians to exile Israel in 722 BC, the Babylonians to destroy the Temple in 586 BC, and the Romans to destroy the Temple in 70 AD.

    I am pretty sure that that "the people of the Prince that shall come" is an oblique reference to the Gentiles as the people of Jesus Christ who came in the form of Rome and destroyed the Temple. Now don't mistake me here, the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem most definitely were NOT Christians, nor yet were they the "people" of Jesus Christ. That could be why they are called the "People of the Prince" that "shall come". The phrase is: Am Nagid Haba. The first two words are Am Nagid = People of the Prince. It is very important to note that the word "prince" here is the same word used for Messiah the Prince [Jesus Christ] in Dan 9:26. The third word is "Haba" that means "shall come" or "that shall be in the future". Thus, there is some ambiguity. Does "Haba" modify "Am Nagid" or just "Nagid"? There are two possibilities:

    1) Is this verse talking about the People that then belonged to a Prince who was to come in the future?

    or

    2) Is this verse talking about a People that shall be identified as the "People of the Prince" some time after God used them to destroy the Temple?

    I think the context strongly suggests the second interpretation. Here's why:

    Daniel 9:25-27

    26 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah [Jesus] the Prince [Nagid] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    The first occurrence of Prince [Nagid] definitely speaks of Jesus.
    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah [Jesus] be cut off, but not for himself:
    Both occurrences of Messiah refer to Jesus.

    and the people of the prince [Nagid] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    There is nothing in the text that suggests this "prince" is different than the prince in the previous verse. There is ambiguity in who is "to come" as discussed above.

    27 And He [Jesus] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
    This is the most obvious interpretation of this verse, because Jesus confirmed the New Covenant, and the New Covenant is the primary point of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 Weeks, (and the whole Bible, of course).

    and for the overspreading of abominations He [Jesus] shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
    It should not be disturbing to think that Jesus would bring desolation on Jerusalem, since that's exactly what He warned many many times in the Old Testament. For example:

    Leviticus 26:32 And I [YHVH/JESUS] will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
    I think its a pretty strong case. I look forward to what ever doesn't "sit right" with you so we can move closer to the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    True that there have been many antichrists. But There's got to be a last days ruler. The ones in the past like Antiochus Epiphanies and Pharaoh in Moses time are types of the one that's coming.
    I don't see why there must be a literal human last days wanna be world ruler. Does the Bible teach that? If so, where?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    And concerning of rebuilding a temple. What about Mark 13 where Jesus reminds daniels prophecy saying, When you see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place...?
    Wasn't Jesus warning about the soon coming destruction of the Temple in 70 AD?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #13
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    And what may preclude these prophecies from occurring in their entirety in the future?

    Could the edict to rebuild the temple be one which comes forth at a future time?

    Is it certain that the edict to rebuild was that which occurred in the past?

    If the occurrence of the events are to occur without interuption, and the argument is that no interruption is possible, then, is it possible that the edict to rebuild the temple is yet a future event?

    If that is a possibility, then all future discussions concerning the prophecies of Daniel, et al, must include that possibility as well.

    Joel









    a
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    And what may preclude these prophecies from occurring in their entirety in the future?
    The fact that the prophecies predicted the date of the most important event in the Bible - the crucifixion of Christ - and the destruction of the Temple and dispersion of the Jews that followed soon after seems to prove conclusively that they were fulfilled in 30-70 AD. And that is one reason I am so sad when Christians fail to understand and proclaim this great and mighty witness of the truth of the Bible and prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Could the edict to rebuild the temple be one which comes forth at a future time?
    No. Absolutely not. The prophecy was primarily about the Crucifixion of Christ, which was calculated from the date to rebuild the temple. Since that happened in the past, we know the edict happened even earlier. The only way to move the destruction of the Temple into the future is to invent a "2000+ year gap" for which there is no justification whatsoever in the Bible (that I know of, anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Is it certain that the edict to rebuild was that which occurred in the past?
    Absolutely, for the reasons stated above.

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    If the occurrence of the events are to occur without interuption, and the argument is that no interruption is possible, then, is it possible that the edict to rebuild the temple is yet a future event?
    No, because the edict to rebuild had to precede the death of the Messiah Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    If that is a possibility, then all future discussions concerning the prophecies of Daniel, et al, must include that possibility as well.

    Joel
    I think this is an extremely important issue. It seems to me that the crucifixion of Christ proves that the edict had to happen around 444 BC, as most people conclude. I would like very much to know if you think theis question is settled now, and if not, why not.

    Thanks!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #15
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    70 AD tribulation

    Richard

    I hear you calling the destruction of the temple in 70 AD the 'abomination of desolation'. Are you also calling the destruction of the temple in 70 AD the 'great tribulation'? If so, what are you doing with these verses?

    Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    30
    Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
    coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Jeremiah 20:9 " But His word was in my heart like a burning fire Shut up in my bones; I was weary of holding it back, And I could not.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by shalag View Post
    Richard

    I hear you calling the destruction of the temple in 70 AD the 'abomination of desolation'. Are you also calling the destruction of the temple in 70 AD the 'great tribulation'? If so, what are you doing with these verses?

    Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    30
    Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
    coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    To understand the language of the New Testament, we must know how God spoke in the Old Testament. The first part of Matt 24:29 seems to be using the standard biblical language for the judgment of God on a nation. The "falling stars" represent the fall of governmental rulers from their positions of power. The sun will not give its light means that their "days have grown dark" because they have been destroyed from the earth. God used almost exactly the same language when He used the Babylonians to destroy first Temple in 586 BC:

    Ezekiel 32:7-11 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD. 9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known. 10 Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall. 11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.
    Likewise, if Revelation is talking about the same events, which is the only way the word "soon" could retain its normal meaning, then the "coming with clouds" represents the coming of Christ in judgment on Jerusalem. This coheres with the opening passage of Revelation:

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
    This shows how all the interpretations work together. If we reject the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies in the first century, then we become confused about the meaning of Revelation. And vice versa.

    I know this does not "settle the issue." We have all been fed on a diet of full futuristic interpretations of Daniel's 70th Week, the Olivet Discourse, and the whole book of Revelation, despite the overwhelming evidence that much of it was fulfilled in the first century. So I expect it will take a fair amount of discussion for us to cut through the fog and to get some bright sunlit clarity on God's Word so we can expose all the assumptions we have imported into the text and see what it is really saying without a lot of inventions like 2000+ year gaps and rebuilt Temples.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #17
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    I'm hoping and praying that the biblewheel project would pick up and show the biblical interpretation on things that otherwise we would never have been able to understand.

    I think we've been deceived by the modern prophecy teachers like "Doctor" Jack Van Impe ( man I used to love his shows! but now I see how much of a deceiver he is ). Of course when we're new in the faith we believe everything that comes to us in sheep's clothing. But as we grow we see who are honest and reliable.

    But Richard, your interpretation is quite new to me concerning the end times. I would like to know whether some prophecies are meant for the future or a thing of the past or both. Like Daniel 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12.

    I would like to know if the 4th beast in Daniel is the same beast in Revelation or different? since it talks about the 11th horn but Revelation doesn't. Also Daniel doesn't mention the 7 heads but John does. Some interpreters say that the 4 beasts are Great Britain, USSR, Germany and the NWO.

    But in some places the beast is identified as a system and other places a person like in Revelation 19 where he is thrown into the lake of fire.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I'm hoping and praying that the biblewheel project would pick up and show the biblical interpretation on things that otherwise we would never have been able to understand.
    I think we always could understand the fulfillment of prophecies with out the Bible Wheel, but it really does help bring the correct interpretations to light. This was particularly evident with the alignment of Revelation and the Song of Songs on the Spoke 22 - the Last Spoke, the Spoke of Consummation when the Lamb receives Bride and the Circle is completed and sealed with Aleph-Tav/Alpha-Omega. This led me to see that just as God painted His most holy picture of Love between Him and His Bride the Church in the Song of Songs, so I should not be surprised to see the other great symbolic book - Revelation - paint the same picture. The Bible Wheel has proven to be a very valuable guide in the study of all aspects of Scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    But as we grow we see who are honest and reliable.
    Yes, but even more important, as we grow we learn to interpret the Bible the way God intended, and so do not rely on any human teacher, but test all things in light of Scripture, as it is written: "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14)

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    But Richard, your interpretation is quite new to me concerning the end times.
    Yes, many people are not familiar with this way of looking at them. But I assure you these interpretations did not originate with me. They were fairly common interpretations amongst mainstream Protestants a couple hundred years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I would like to know whether some prophecies are meant for the future or a thing of the past or both. Like Daniel 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12.
    Lets take a look at Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2. It was explicitly fulfilled in the course of History in sequence of the Babylonian, Mede/Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires. Everyone knows that sequence is long past. Christ, the Stone cut without hands struck the foot of the statue in the first century, and its collapse was complete in the fifth century. The Kingdom of God has since been growing into a great mountain that will fill the whole earth. (Dan 2:35).

    This coheres with the fulfillment of Daniel 9 in the first century when Christ became the last sacrifice that ended the animal sacrifices in the Temple. First spiritually around 33 AD, and then physically in 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed just as Daniel prophesied.

    But other prophecies in Daniel are still future.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I would like to know if the 4th beast in Daniel is the same beast in Revelation or different? since it talks about the 11th horn but Revelation doesn't. Also Daniel doesn't mention the 7 heads but John does. Some interpreters say that the 4 beasts are Great Britain, USSR, Germany and the NWO.
    I don't know - but I would be very hesitant about any application to modern nations, since people have been doing this continuously for nearly two thousand years and have always been wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    But in some places the beast is identified as a system and other places a person like in Revelation 19 where he is thrown into the lake of fire.
    That is why its so important to learn to read the symbols that God has used to present the truth in Revelation.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #19
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    Daniel 2

    Hi Gents!

    Just something on Daniel 2. The thing about the Stone is that it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay. Because of this, I don't believe the roman empire of the 1st century is intended. The legs of iron appear to be the roman empire of Jesus' day. Who then might the feet of iron and clay refer to? Well, they must be some form of continuation or successor of the roman empire, because iron is in there. Some folks say they refer to Rome and Byzantium. But these might even be construed as the two legs of iron. I once entertained the idea that the feet of iron and clay might be the holy roman empire and monarchic france. My point is that these verses are open to contestation still.

    Stephen
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Hi Gents!

    Just something on Daniel 2. The thing about the Stone is that it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay. Because of this, I don't believe the roman empire of the 1st century is intended. The legs of iron appear to be the roman empire of Jesus' day. Who then might the feet of iron and clay refer to? Well, they must be some form of continuation or successor of the roman empire, because iron is in there. Some folks say they refer to Rome and Byzantium. But these might even be construed as the two legs of iron. I once entertained the idea that the feet of iron and clay might be the holy roman empire and monarchic france. My point is that these verses are open to contestation still.

    Stephen
    Hi Stephen,

    I think a closer look at that prophecy will help clear up the confusion:

    Daniel 2:40-41 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the [fourth] kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
    The text seems to say that the feet and toes are a spatial extension or the Fourth Kingdom, not a future extension of it. Support for this is seen in where the "Stone" (Christ) struck the kingdom of Rome. It was not in the "legs of iron" - Rome proper - but in the place where Rome did "mingle themselves with the seed of men" in Galilee of the Gentiles. Even the Jews gave it a name that denoted mixing with the Gentiles. And we know from history that the Jews and the Romans most certainly did not "cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." So it seems there are no problems with this interpretation.

    Furthermore, the identity of the Stone seems to necessitate a first century fulfillment in Christ Jesus. It all makes perfect sense that way, and fits with the other prophecies of Christ as the Stone that "the builders rejected" and the "stone of stumbling" that was laid in Zion. The alternative leads to a flood of baseless speculation about a "2000+ year gap," a "revived Roman empire," a "third Temple," and other such nonsense.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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