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gilgal
06-29-2007, 04:36 PM
Which book comes to mind when we think of I am? The Gospel of John. It is the 43rd book overall, which is 21st from Isaiah. Isaiah 43 also has I ams. In fact they share this phrase:



Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
43rd book John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


So in Isaiah God is identifying himself Jesus Christ and in John Jesus is identifying himself as God.

More on this:
http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Isaiah/Isaiah43.asp

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Well, if you take #3, or #7 it's very hard to define them because they are used so much. But if you look at the 7th book you find Judges. Also Matthew 7 starts with Judge not. Judge is also mentioned in John 7, Acts 7.

But I've said these things off the top of my head. I would rather take out the texts side-by-side and draw out the similarities. Because you can find judge in many other places. But if you find sentences or several words you'll find a thematic link. Look at the #17 thread on Esther and Ezekiel 39. Now that should be fascinating!

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Thanks for the link. Now I know some history concerning that. I wrote the answer in here ('http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6626&st=0&#')

To add a couple of things Ecclesiastes is the 21st book of the first cycle of 22 according to the 22 letters of the hebrew alphabet. John is the 21st of the 2nd cycle of 22. Isn't ecclesia church? John was writing to the ecclesia boldly that Jesus is God. Whereas the others wrote to the Jews, Romans, and Greeks.

I thought of this myself. This may be speculation. The 21st letter in shin meaning tooth. The last teeth that come out is at around the age of 21. They are called wisdom teeth. The 21st book is Ecclesiastes one of the wisdom books ( Job, Psalms, Proverbs are the others ). Just a thought.

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Ok. And what does that mean? I think the Gospel of John focuses heavily on this topic.

It begins with the Word being God in the 1st chapter.
Jesus said "Before Abraham was I am".

But also the definition of Son of God:


John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


In other words Jesus Christ and his Father in heaven are made up of the same substance not according to the flesh. Then nothing would be equal, because God is Almighty and Jesus weak in the flesh that he was crucified. But they are equal in the Spirit. For this reason this is written:



Philippians 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


So being of the same substance means being in the form of God and equal with God.

Here's another passage which mentions equal:


Isaiah 46:5
To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?


Isn't this the mystery of a triune Godhead?

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Where in the record of Christ's conception and birth does it say that because Mary concieved due to the Holy Spirit, her son was God?

I will refer to record that is the most verbose on this subject, Luke.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

OK.
The very name Jesus comes from the Hebrew name Yeshua meaning Yahweh will save, right? And the angel said Jesus will save:

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Why is "God with us" connected with a virgin's conception? I mean I can say that God is with me all the time, right? But I think this "God with us" is referring to the physical presence.
Hebrews talks about the better things (better covenant, better than angels, better sacrifice...)

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Why doesn't the angel say a God, instead of using the term for a mortal child?

Luk 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Again, ample opportunity to be clear about Christ's nature, instead he is explicitly called Mary's firstborn son.

Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

Savior, Messiach (Christ), Lord. He is explicitly all those things, another opportunity to call him God. Not taken.

Luk 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Luk 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Luk 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

He is circumcised and purified like every other hebrew male child.

Then you have the benedictions of Simeon and Anna:

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Luk 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marveled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher: she was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity;
Luk 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Once again, why don't they state that a God has been born to them? The way of salvation, yes, a light to the Gentiles, yes, redemption of Jerusalem, yes, the trouble is taken to say all these things explicitly. Why not tell us that he is God?

But i've saved the biggest passage for last. I'm not suggesting that Christ's conception and birth was in no way different to anyone else, to do so would be to ignore clearly stated scripture:

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

"that holy thing" holy = seperate. Yes this is a unique child. Why? Well once again scripture is explicit; he is unique because he is the Son of God.

It depends to whom is Luke addressing his Gospel. It was written to Theophilus. It seems to me that he was a ruler. Among the Gospels John is the most detailed about the deity of Christ. But all throughout there are places to prove it. Luke's account was more focused on Jesus' humanity. But if you want a passage, watch this.

This goes back to the biblewheel. Luke falls in the 20th spoke of the wheel, the 20th book of the 2nd cycle. It falls with Proverbs:
The King James Bible has 2 verses matching mouth + wisdom + give.

Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
This shows that Jesus is that Lord spoken of in Proverbs because he is giving the wisdom. We know that the Lord in Proverbs is God.

Just to make the biblewheel more interesting, a side note, the 20th letter is resh. The word repha means "heal". We know through many commentaries that Luke was a physician. His Gospel was focused on the healings of Jesus, the great Physician.

Then the 3 cycles of the 20th spoke are in order, Proverbs, Luke and 3 John.
There was 1 verse that binds all three spokes together:

Luke 4:23
And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb (relating to Proverbs), Physician (The profession of Luke), heal (mentioned in the 1 chapter epistle of 3 John) thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

Coming back to the topic, Titus uses interchangeably God our Saviour and Christ our Saviour.

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I add this to it:
As I looked for verse 2 I noticed the word grievous and as I was searching for that word I found out that it is found in chapter 2 of Ecclesiastes. The King James Bible has 2 verses matching grievous + unto me.



Isaiah 21:2 A grievous vision is declared unto me; the treacherous dealer dealeth treacherously, and the spoiler spoileth. Go up, O Elam: besiege, O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease.

Ecclesiastes 2:17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Richard Amiel McGough
06-29-2007, 05:40 PM
Which book comes to mind when we think of I am? The Gospel of John. It is the 43rd book overall, which is 21st from Isaiah. Isaiah 43 also has I ams. In fact they share this phrase:


Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
43rd book John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

So in Isaiah God is identifying himself Jesus Christ and in John Jesus is identifying himself as God.

More on this:
http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheel...h/Isaiah43.asp (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/../InnerWheels/Isaiah/Isaiah43.asp)

Not only do they share the same phrase, but that phrase is found nowhere else in the entire Bible, which is the definition of a KeyLink. Furthermore, it is a first order projective KeyLink (http://www.biblewheel.com/Topics/Projective.asp#first) because both indexes correspond:

Bible 43:10:36 ==> Isaiah 43:10

Here's the pic from the article (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Isaiah/Isaiah43.asp) that discusses this connection:

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/Isaiah4310Projection.gif

This is definitely one of the most significant KeyLinks I have ever seen.


Well, if you take #3, or #7 it's very hard to define them because they are used so much. But if you look at the 7th book you find Judges. Also Matthew 7 starts with Judge not. Judge is also mentioned in John 7, Acts 7.
Yes, I discuss that correlation in the Inner Wheels > Matthew 7 (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Matthew/Mat07.asp) article.

Now as for how to "define them" you are correct, the high frequency of use makes that more of a challenge. On the other hand, the primary meaning can be discerned by the fact that these two numbers are used in relation to concepts that are of the highest significance. Three relates to the Trinity, and seven to the perfection and completion of Creation (7 days). Of course, there are many nuances that would need to be discussed. A good example of how I attempt to define the meaning of the Number Seven is found here (http://www.biblewheel.com/Topics/Seven_Meaning.asp).


Thanks for the link. Now I know some history concerning that. I wrote the answer in here (http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6626&st=0&#)

I tried the link, but the forum is closed to non-members.

It looks like you have copied the conversation from that thread. Unfortunately, some of the "background" is missing, so I am not sure of the context. But I'll answer as best I can ...


To add a couple of things Ecclesiastes is the 21st book of the first cycle of 22 according to the 22 letters of the hebrew alphabet. John is the 21st of the 2nd cycle of 22. Isn't ecclesia church? John was writing to the ecclesia boldly that Jesus is God. Whereas the others wrote to the Jews, Romans, and Greeks.
That's an interesting idea. I agree with the first three "audience classifications" but I have heard that John is the "universal Gospel." I hadn't thought about is as the Gospel addressed to the Church = ecclesia (which is the root of the name Ecclesiastes)., but it does make some sense especially in light of its high Christology.

Well, the rest of your post seems to be dealing with a Christadelphian who denies the deity of Christ, correct? That is a worthy battle. I pray God uses to open their eyes to His truth. But its a little hard to enter in here, and its also off-topic (from the theme of Inner Wheels). I think it would be great if you wanted to share your apologetic battles with the Christiadelphians on this forum so we can all contribute, but we probably should create a thread for that in the "Deviations, Cults, and Heresies" sub-forum.

Thanks for all the hard work you are doing my brother! I must say, you have really gathered together a lot of wonderful gems from all the different parts of the Bible Wheel and its Inner Wheels. :thumb:

Richard

gilgal
08-24-2007, 10:34 PM
1Kings and 2Kings:

The King James Bible has 2 verses matching abomina + whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel + And he did.
1 Kings 21:26
And he did very abominably in following idols, according to all things as did the Amorites, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
2 Kings 21:2
And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, after the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.



The King James Bible has 2 verses matching amorites + abomina + idols.
1 Kings 21:26
And he did very abominably in following idols, according to all things as did the Amorites, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
2 Kings 21:11
Because Manasseh king of Judah hath done these abominations, and hath done wickedly above all that the Amorites did, which were before him, and hath made Judah also to sin with his idols:

Although, not a keylink, there is a mentioning of Ahab and Samaria in verses 1 kings 21:1,18 and 2 kings 21:13.