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gregoryfl
12-28-2008, 01:44 PM
There are innumerable things in scripture that God has to reveal in order for it to be found and understood. Revelation is not something you can apply a hermeneutic to. Study can only get you so far in understanding. The best source I have ever read concerning this is a 150 page book by Andrew Jukes called "Mystery of the Kingdom." Anyone who truly wants to understand this often misunderstood subject I encourage to have a serious look at this book. The link is here:

http://www.savior-of-all.com/Mystery%20of%20the%20Kingdom.pdf

If any of you have read it before, I would love to hear your comments on it. This is not something that should be ignored or taken lightly, at least not in my opinion.

Ron

Richard Amiel McGough
12-29-2008, 01:43 PM
There are innumerable things in scripture that God has to reveal in order for it to be found and understood. Revelation is not something you can apply a hermeneutic to. Study can only get you so far in understanding. The best source I have ever read concerning this is a 150 page book by Andrew Jukes called "Mystery of the Kingdom." Anyone who truly wants to understand this often misunderstood subject I encourage to have a serious look at this book. The link is here:

http://www.savior-of-all.com/Mystery%20of%20the%20Kingdom.pdf

If any of you have read it before, I would love to hear your comments on it. This is not something that should be ignored or taken lightly, at least not in my opinion.

Ron
Hi Ron,

Thank you for bringing this book to my attention. Bob also recommended it. So I have begun reading, and have found it quite delightful. I'm only on page 3, but have found it gripping to my soul. Here is a snippet that might encourage others to look into it:



From Christ I pass to His words, to inquire what light they throw upon the character, and so upon the interpretation, of the written Word. We have observed in Christ Himself, and the same is true of His works, that there was more in Him than met the eye; there was something below the surface; and that this hidden treasure was only opened out by the Spirit to faith and need. We shall find the selfsame peculiarities in the words He spoke. Parables were his chosen form of speech. "Without a parable spake He not unto the multitude." (Matt. 13:34). Nay, such were His words, that even His own disciples, while they followed, often misunderstood Him. His exhortations to beware of leaven (Matt. 16:6); to sell a garment and buy a sword (Luke 22:28); to eat His flesh and drink His blood (John 6:56-60); to ask of Him living water, which should be to those who received it a well of water springing up unto eternal life (John 4:10-14); these and many other such, which at once meet us, will sufficiently show how often a secret meaning lay hidden under His plainest words. In fact they were like Himself - "an open secret", open to all, but opened to few; a revelation and a mystery; from the wise and prudent they hid those things which yet, as seemed good to the Father, were by them revealed to babes. But then comes the question, - Do not these words of Christ throw some light on the character of His words, and the Word of His Spirit spoken by holy men of old?


Richard

Bob May
12-29-2008, 09:57 PM
Hi Ron,

Great subject for a thread.

And great book recommendation. I am only on page 7 and it touches on a lot being discussed here on the forum. The author has done a masterful job at illustrating ideas which I have found difficult to get my mind or mouth around. And he does it using plenty of Scripture to illustrate his points.

I look forward to where this thread will lead.

Bob

Bob May
01-03-2009, 06:19 PM
Hi all,

After showing many examples of both Jesus and the Apostles quoting Old Testament prophets and Law and Psalms apparently "out of context", the author (of the book linked above) then goes on to show that we are instructed by Paul to do likewise.

Ro 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the [COLOR="red"][COLOR="red"][COLOR="Blue"]proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;"

I like that phrase, "proportion of faith." The author goes on to show that that word "proportion" is analogia,..analogy!!!
It come from two words, one, "ana" str# 303 meaning severally, repetition, reversal. The other half of the word, "Logia" is of course "Thought" or "Word."
from "Logos."

So we also see the idea of a "reversal of thought." Interestingly, I have used this as a definition of Repent. A "change of mind." And also the idea of repitition of thought or word. This seems to imply that it applies to more than one group of people or people. Israel, the Patriarchs, Jesus, the Apostles, Us...

So, what Paul is saying here is that WE are to prophesy (interpret scripture)according to the "analogy of faith" as he coined the phrase. I will use that phrase from now on.
He is not just saying that we are to use analogy but a "special kind" of analogy when interpreting scripture. And that that "special kind" of analogy may very well appear "out of context". THAT is why he calls it the analogy of "FAITH", because it takes faith both to use it and believe it.

(By the way, I do not even like the word "interpret" as it can hold a meaning that implies changing the intended meaning.)

But true interpretation brings out the true intent of the author. Or the "depths of meaning" which were the intent of the author.
And the Author of which we are dealing is God through His Word in His Scripture.


1 co 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."


Much of what I have learned over the years, (and I'm sure some of you are in the same boat) is difficult to share with many as the method of the getting is more akin to "let go and let God" than any Aristotle inspired rules of logic.

Still there is a certain "Logic" at use here. If it applies to Old Testament characters, it equally applies to us as members of the Church and the Body of Christ. And Israel in the Old Testament and the Patriarchs etc., etc.
The books were written for us, to us and about us.

And without this perspective of the Scripture, we Cannot know the Scripture.

Bob

gregoryfl
01-03-2009, 11:08 PM
Hi all,

After showing many examples of both Jesus and the Apostles quoting Old Testament prophets and Law and Psalms apparently "out of context", the author (of the book linked above) then goes on to show that we are instructed by Paul to do likewise.

Ro 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the [COLOR="red"][COLOR="red"][COLOR="Blue"]proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;"

I like that phrase, "proportion of faith." The author goes on to show that that word "proportion" is analogia,..analogy!!!
It come from two words, one, "ana" str# 303 meaning severally, repetition, reversal. The other half of the word, "Logia" is of course "Thought" or "Word."
from "Logos."

So we also see the idea of a "reversal of thought." Interestingly, I have used this as a definition of Repent. A "change of mind." And also the idea of repitition of thought or word. This seems to imply that it applies to more than one group of people or people. Israel, the Patriarchs, Jesus, the Apostles, Us...

So, what Paul is saying here is that WE are to prophesy (interpret scripture)according to the "analogy of faith" as he coined the phrase. I will use that phrase from now on.
He is not just saying that we are to use analogy but a "special kind" of analogy when interpreting scripture. And that that "special kind" of analogy may very well appear "out of context". THAT is why he calls it the analogy of "FAITH", because it takes faith both to use it and believe it.

(By the way, I do not even like the word "interpret" as it can hold a meaning that implies changing the intended meaning.)

But true interpretation brings out the true intent of the author. Or the "depths of meaning" which were the intent of the author.
And the Author of which we are dealing is God through His Word in His Scripture.


1 co 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."


Much of what I have learned over the years, (and I'm sure some of you are in the same boat) is difficult to share with many as the method of the getting is more akin to "let go and let God" than any Aristotle inspired rules of logic.

Still there is a certain "Logic" at use here. If it applies to Old Testament characters, it equally applies to us as members of the Church and the Body of Christ. And Israel in the Old Testament and the Patriarchs etc., etc.
The books were written for us, to us and about us.

And without this perspective of the Scripture, we Cannot know the Scripture.

Bob

Great thoughts Bob. :thumb: The only thing I would also add is that the first part of that word, which is "ana" primarily is a preposition meaning up. The word is literally "up-thought", or "up-word." I still think it ties in wonderfully with what you shared though, as we are shown the source of where revelation is toward, which is concerning things from heaven, that is, from God.

Ron

Rose
01-04-2009, 11:06 AM
Hi all,
Much of what I have learned over the years, (and I'm sure some of you are in the same boat) is difficult to share with many as the method of the getting is more akin to "let go and let God" than any Aristotle inspired rules of logic.

Still there is a certain "Logic" at use here. If it applies to Old Testament characters, it equally applies to us as members of the Church and the Body of Christ. And Israel in the Old Testament and the Patriarchs etc., etc.
The books were written for us, to us and about us.

And without this perspective of the Scripture, we Cannot know the Scripture.

Bob

Yes, they were written for us, to us, and about us in the sense that we are all of the race of Adam. I also see the whole body of Scripture as telling us a story of God's plan of salvation that includes the characters who were an integral part of the story.

All the truths contained in the Bible apply to all of us, even though we personally were not part of that story. That perspective helps me a lot in understanding and "interpreting Scripture", to know that what is contained in Scripture was put there to give us all a revelation of who Jesus Christ is and why He came to earth to die for us. I don't have to try and figure out when this or that prophesy is going to be fulfilled but can rest in the knowing that all has been accomplished in Christ.

God Bless,

Rose