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gilgal
11-03-2008, 01:30 AM
I'm having this thought whether Rome is connected to names such as Abram and Abraham, Ramah (Ramoth?).

I'm curious to where in the epistles is the name Rome mentioned. Obviously mostly in the book of Romans being the 1st book which goes along with the first century.

But when exactly did the Holy Roman empire started and if the epistle matches the century of when it started.

Abram - Exalted Father.
Abraham - Father of many nations or Father of a multitude.

The pope seems to match both those meanings that he is considered an exalted father and the father of a multitude or many nations.

CWH
03-12-2010, 09:23 AM
Hi gilgal and all,

An inspiration just comes to me.; this is quite interesting:

Abram - Exalted Father.
Abraham - Father of many nations or Father of a multitude.

Why did God changed the name of Abram to Abraham?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham

Excerpt: When Abram is ninety-nine, God again appears to him and affirms his promise. A covenant is entered into: Sarai will give birth to a son who will be called Isaac, and Abram's house must thenceforth be circumcised. It is promised that Ishmael will father twelve princes, who will become a great nation. Abram's name is changed to Abraham and Sarai's to Sarah.[23]

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are sometimes referred to as the "Abrahamic religions" because of the progenitor role that Abraham plays in their holy books. In both the Jewish tradition and the Quran, he is referred to as "our Father".[4] Jews, Christians, and Muslims consider him father of the people of Israel. For Jews and Christians this is through his son Isaac,[5] by his wife Sarah; for Muslims, he is a prophet of Islam and the ancestor of Muhammad through his other son Ishmael, born to him by Sarah's handmaiden, Hagar.

Abraham is held as a founding father in the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic religions. Genesis states that the nation of Israel descended from him through his second son, Isaac. Many Arab nations are said to have descended from him through his first son, Ishmael, and Muslims believe that the prophet Muhammad is his direct descendant. An extra-biblical book known as the book of Jubilees also places the location and identity of the Ishmaelites as the Arab peoples.

We also know that there are some problems with the name of Abraham:

Abraham's name first appears as Abram (Hebrew: אַבְרָם‎, Standard Avram, Tiberian ʾAḇrām), meaning either "exalted father" or "my father is exalted" (compare Abiram) or "the father is exalted". Later in Genesis God renamed him Abraham, a name which the text glosses as av hamon (goyim) "father of many (nations)";[10] however, the name does not have any literal meaning in Hebrew.[11] Many interpretations based on modern textual and linguistic analysis have been offered, including an analysis of a first element abr- "chief", which yields a meaningless second element, however. Johann Friedrich Karl Keil suggests there was once a word raham (רָהָם) in Hebrew, meaning "multitude", on analogy with the word ruhâm which has this meaning in Arabic, but this is purely speculative.[12] David Rohl suggests the name comes from Akkadian "the father loves."

See also the website for the origin, meaning and etymology of Abraham:

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Abraham.html


Now, this is my inspiration, it may sounds like wordplay but just bear with me. We know the following:

1) Abba means Father
2) He was the father of Isaac and Ishmael
3) Isaac is the father of the Jews and Ishmael is believed by the Arabs to be the father of the Arabs
4) God changed the name of Abram to Abraham the moment after Sarah gave birth to Isaac the father of the Jews, Hagar already gave birth to Ishmael, the said father of the Arabs.
5) Abraham means the multitude of nations which was promised to Isaac the father of the Jews with their 12 tribes. However on Ishmael side, Ishmael was also promised 12 sons who will also inherit a multitude of nations.
6) We know that Ham was one of the son of Noah who was the father of the Semite groups which includes the Jews and they occupy mostly the region of Ham in the Middle East.
7) We also know that the name Abraham has some etymological problems and may denote some sort of code

Taking the word Abraham and breaking it down into anagrams, we have A(b)ba = father, Abra = Arab, ham = the region/son of Ham or the racial group which include Jews, We have Abraham = the father(Abba) of Arabs(Abra) and the Jews(Ham).

No wonder the name Abram "Exalted father" was changed to Abraham "Father of many nations". This is true to this present days, as we see many Arab nations and the Jews were the ones who helped established many nations in Europe and many Europeans have Jewish blood. Both Arabs and Jews have descendants spread all over the world like the sands of the sea. The Arabs formed the Arab League and the Europeans formed the European Union. The Arabs were the founder of Islam and the Jews were the founder of Judaism and Christianity. The Jews and the Arabs were almost always at loggerheads, I am afraid one day they will have a big clash.

Many Blessings.

gilgal
03-12-2010, 03:42 PM
Rome is where there is the exalted father, the Pope.
The 1st book is Genesis where Abraham, the Father of Many nations is spoken of as well as exalted father.
Romans is the 1st epistle.
The Romans dominated in the 1st century.
The Romans tried to bring the world together by conquest as Babel in Genesis 11.
The Roman roads paved the way for the Gospel as Isaiah mention about good tidings.

What were the names of the Caesars in order?

CWH
03-13-2010, 09:43 AM
Hi gilgal,

I agree fully with your views of the Romans. The list of Roman caesars can be found in the internet. I believe you are still looking for the identity of the ten horns which you think refers to the 10 Roman emperors. You are taking bark from the wrong tree to line the wrong boat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Emperors

Many Blessings.

gilgal
03-13-2010, 11:13 PM
Whether I'm right or wrong it doesn't matter. My point is that you have to understand how to interpret the prophecies first and then you can figure out who's who. I've been a futurist in my views. But now I'm part preterist and part futurist. When Jesus was reading the scroll of Isaiah he closed the scroll before the sentence ended and said this part is fulfilled (Luke 3? 4?). But the rest is in the future. So I believe in a partial fulfillment.

My goal at this point is to know history. I want to know exactly what happened with these 4 empires so I can identify all that was mentioned in the prophecies of Daniel.

If you look at the kings of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Macedonia and Rome who do you think the worst rulers were? Rome.

People like Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Cyrus. The bible speaks good things of them at the end.

Julio-Claudian dynasty

Augustus
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
Nero


Year of the Four Emperors & Flavian Dynasty

Galba
Otho
Vitellius
Vespasian
Titus
Domitian


Nervan-Antonian dynasty

Nerva
Trajan
Hadrian
Antoninus Pius
Lucius Verus
Marcus Aurelius
Commodus


So there were 10 dynasties.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/c759babae0e1731e4d540e0a65a74f91.png

alec cotton
03-14-2010, 01:33 AM
Hello Gilgal.
I know that this is an inappropriate
place but I am desoerate. I have a coin with Hadrian on it. It has me puzzled. Everything on it is in cameo exept for three tiny letters. W. R . L. those are intaglio . Now I am absolutely certain that they were stamped when it was minted. It cannot be a modern forgery. No one would be stupid enough to do it. Does the letter "W" occur in Roman.?. R.S.V.P.

Alec

CWH
03-14-2010, 08:54 AM
HI gilgal,

You are a partial preterist and a partial futurist, somewhat same as me a preterist-futurist; but I tell you RAM is totally against that idea, you are either a preterist or a futurist never partial.

Thanks for your impressive list of the 10 dynasties. The reason why I said you may be wrong is that you need to understand the statue that Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of. This I have put across in another thread that we need to understand what is the feet of the statue made from iron and clay. This is the most important part and the weakest part of the statue so that when the stone hit the feet the whole statue fell down in one piece. Lets's look at the statue again:

1) We know that the golden head of the statue was the Babylonian Empire
2) The two silver arms was the Mede which later was took over by the Persian, therefore the Medes and Persian Empire
3) The body of bronze was the Greek Empire
4) The 2 legs of Iron was the Roman Empire, Western and Eastern.
5) The 2 feet of the statue of Iron and clay???....? EU and ... ? Arab League. The countries that formed the EU and the Arab League were once the regions or part of the regions of the Roman Empire and therefore have the iron in them. That seems to explain that when the stone hit the feet, the whole statue fall down in one piece meaning that the regions that once were the glory of the Babylonian, Mede-Persian, Greek, Romans will all collapsed into the hands of Jesus when He comes in His power.

http://www.bibleetnombres.online.fr/images6/danimag1.jpg

Many Blessings.

gilgal
03-14-2010, 03:41 PM
Hello Gilgal.
I know that this is an inappropriate
place but I am desoerate. I have a coin with Hadrian on it. It has me puzzled. Everything on it is in cameo exept for three tiny letters. W. R . L. those are intaglio . Now I am absolutely certain that they were stamped when it was minted. It cannot be a modern forgery. No one would be stupid enough to do it. Does the letter "W" occur in Roman.?. R.S.V.P.

Alec
I'm not an expert in coins maybe someone else can answer.

gilgal
03-14-2010, 04:00 PM
HI gilgal,

You are a partial preterist and a partial futurist, somewhat same as me a preterist-futurist; but I tell you RAM is totally against that idea, you are either a preterist or a futurist never partial.

Thanks for your impressive list of the 10 dynasties. The reason why I said you may be wrong is that you need to understand the statue that Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of. This I have put across in another thread that we need to understand what is the feet of the statue made from iron and clay. This is the most important part and the weakest part of the statue so that when the stone hit the feet the whole statue fell down in one piece. Lets's look at the statue again:

1) We know that the golden head of the statue was the Babylonian Empire
2) The two silver arms was the Mede which later was took over by the Persian, therefore the Medes and Persian Empire
3) The body of bronze was the Greek Empire
4) The 2 legs of Iron was the Roman Empire, Western and Eastern.
5) The 2 feet of the statue of Iron and clay???....? EU and ... ? Arab League. The countries that formed the EU and the Arab League were once the regions or part of the regions of the Roman Empire and therefore have the iron in them. That seems to explain that when the stone hit the feet, the whole statue fall down in one piece meaning that the regions that once were the glory of the Babylonian, Mede-Persian, Greek, Romans will all collapsed into the hands of Jesus when He comes in His power.

http://www.bibleetnombres.online.fr/images6/danimag1.jpg

Many Blessings.
Everyone is persuaded one way or the other but in prophecy I don't want to criticize anyone. Looking at the prophecies of Daniel alone I have so many questions which I'm not even sure anyone can answer.


Why is it that God chose metals to portray the kingdoms?
Why is it that in Daniel 7 the Bear and Leopard (wild beasts) describe Medo-Persians and Macedonians whereas in Daniel 8 domestic (is that the term?) or sacrificial animals or herbivores?
Why does the Leopard have 4 heads and wings whereas the goat has 4 horns?
Are the interpretation of horns the same throughout the scriptures? The ram and he-goat in Daniel 8, the 4th beast in Daniel 7, the Lamb of God in Revelation 5, The red Dragon in Revelation 12, the beast in Revelation 13 and 17 and the 2nd beast in Revelation 13.


Has there been any study among scholars as to who's who in Daniel's prophecy of the ram and the he-goat and then chapters 10 and 11? If so let me know.

As for the horns at first the ram had 2 high horns but the 2nd higher than the 1st. On the other hand the goat had a little horn at the end but mighty enough to throw the hosts of heaven(?)

gilgal
03-14-2010, 04:07 PM
HI gilgal,

You are a partial preterist and a partial futurist, somewhat same as me a preterist-futurist; but I tell you RAM is totally against that idea, you are either a preterist or a futurist never partial.

Thanks for your impressive list of the 10 dynasties. The reason why I said you may be wrong is that you need to understand the statue that Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of. This I have put across in another thread that we need to understand what is the feet of the statue made from iron and clay. This is the most important part and the weakest part of the statue so that when the stone hit the feet the whole statue fell down in one piece. Lets's look at the statue again:

1) We know that the golden head of the statue was the Babylonian Empire
2) The two silver arms was the Mede which later was took over by the Persian, therefore the Medes and Persian Empire
3) The body of bronze was the Greek Empire
4) The 2 legs of Iron was the Roman Empire, Western and Eastern.
5) The 2 feet of the statue of Iron and clay???....? EU and ... ? Arab League. The countries that formed the EU and the Arab League were once the regions or part of the regions of the Roman Empire and therefore have the iron in them. That seems to explain that when the stone hit the feet, the whole statue fall down in one piece meaning that the regions that once were the glory of the Babylonian, Mede-Persian, Greek, Romans will all collapsed into the hands of Jesus when He comes in His power.

http://www.bibleetnombres.online.fr/images6/danimag1.jpg

Many Blessings.

I don't know if there is any importance in dividing the arms and legs into separate kingdoms. Why didn't the waist (brass) divide in four generals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Persia
So how do we make the connections between the Persian history and Daniel's prophecy? It's hard to make the connections in history so should we attempt to interpret the future?

CWH
03-14-2010, 05:31 PM
I don't know if there is any importance in dividing the arms and legs into separate kingdoms. Why didn't the waist (brass) divide in four generals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Persia
So how do we make the connections between the Persian history and Daniel's prophecy? It's hard to make the connections in history so should we attempt to interpret the future?

Hi gilgal,

I am glad you asked, "Why didn't the waist (brass) divide in four generals?". The abdomen is in fact divided into 4 quadrants as reflected in human anatomy:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/19578.jpg

The Mede-Persian Empire was in fact divided into 2 parts as according to history. The Persian revolted against the Mede and established the Empire and therefore know as the Mede-Persian Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Persia#Empires_of_Iran

I agree that everyone is persuaded one way or another in the interpretation of prophesies and the book of Daniel and Revelation have baffled the minds of people past and present. Nobody could interpret with 100% accuracy those prophecies....wish Daniel is here with us today.

Many Blessings.

Richard Amiel McGough
03-14-2010, 06:01 PM
HI gilgal,

You are a partial preterist and a partial futurist, somewhat same as me a preterist-futurist; but I tell you RAM is totally against that idea, you are either a preterist or a futurist never partial.

Hey there Cheow,

Tell me which of these points you disagree with:

1) Preterists assert that all the seals have been opened.

2) Historicists (and some partial Futurists?) assert that some (maybe only one) of the seals have been opened.

3) Full Futurists believe that none of the seals have been opened.

If you agree with these three definitions, then you agree that there can be no such thing as a "Preterist-Futurist" because Point #1 contradicts both Point #2 and Point #3.

All the very best,

Richard

gilgal
03-14-2010, 10:53 PM
Hey there Cheow,

Tell me which of these points you disagree with:

1) Preterists assert that all the seals have been opened.

2) Historicists (and some partial Futurists?) assert that some (maybe only one) of the seals have been opened.

3) Full Futurists believe that none of the seals have been opened.

If you agree with these three definitions, then you agree that there can be no such thing as a "Preterist-Futurist" because Point #1 contradicts both Point #2 and Point #3.

All the very best,

Richard
Hey Richard! Are you talking about the seals of Revelation 6? I haven't considered that. If it was opened then how different was it than before it has been opened? hmmm...maybe the 1st 4 seals have been opened...

Rose
03-15-2010, 09:38 AM
HI gilgal,

You are a partial preterist and a partial futurist, somewhat same as me a preterist-futurist; but I tell you RAM is totally against that idea, you are either a preterist or a futurist never partial.

Thanks for your impressive list of the 10 dynasties. The reason why I said you may be wrong is that you need to understand the statue that Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of. This I have put across in another thread that we need to understand what is the feet of the statue made from iron and clay. This is the most important part and the weakest part of the statue so that when the stone hit the feet the whole statue fell down in one piece. Lets's look at the statue again:

1) We know that the golden head of the statue was the Babylonian Empire
2) The two silver arms was the Mede which later was took over by the Persian, therefore the Medes and Persian Empire
3) The body of bronze was the Greek Empire
4) The 2 legs of Iron was the Roman Empire, Western and Eastern.
5) The 2 feet of the statue of Iron and clay???....? EU and ... ? Arab League. The countries that formed the EU and the Arab League were once the regions or part of the regions of the Roman Empire and therefore have the iron in them. That seems to explain that when the stone hit the feet, the whole statue fall down in one piece meaning that the regions that once were the glory of the Babylonian, Mede-Persian, Greek, Romans will all collapsed into the hands of Jesus when He comes in His power.

http://www.bibleetnombres.online.fr/images6/danimag1.jpg

Many Blessings.
Gen.49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
.
It's interesting to note that in the fulfillment of the prophecy of the last Lawgiver (Christ) to pass from between the feet of Judah, another prophecy was fulfilled that was given in Daniel. The Stone cut without hands (Christ the last Lawgiver who came to earth during the reign of the Roman empire), smote the feet of the statue (Roman empire) causing the ultimate destruction of the entire statue.
.
Dan.2:33-34 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.....43-44 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
.
From history we know this to be true; when Jesus came to earth in the 1st century bringing in the everlasting kingdom of God, the beginnings of the demise of the Roman empire started. Thus we have Shiloh who was the last ruler to come from between the feet of the tribe of Judah (after the temple was destroyed all records of tribal affiliation was lost), being the Stone that smashed the feet of the last mighty empire (Rome) that ruled during the time of His earthly mission, ultimately bringing it into submission to the cross....thus fulfilling Daniels prophecy.



Rose

CWH
03-15-2010, 10:35 AM
Hey there Cheow,

Tell me which of these points you disagree with:

1) Preterists assert that all the seals have been opened.

2) Historicists (and some partial Futurists?) assert that some (maybe only one) of the seals have been opened.

3) Full Futurists believe that none of the seals have been opened.

If you agree with these three definitions, then you agree that there can be no such thing as a "Preterist-Futurist" because Point #1 contradicts both Point #2 and Point #3.

All the very best,


Richard

I disagree with #1 and 3. I am more of #2.

Many Blessings.

Richard Amiel McGough
03-15-2010, 10:42 AM
I disagree with #1 and 3. I am more of #2.

Many Blessings.
That's exactly what I thought you believed from all the things you have written.

So do you now agree that there is no such thing as a "Preterist-Futurist?"

CWH
03-15-2010, 11:00 AM
That's exactly what I thought you believed from all the things you have written.

So do you now agree that there is no such thing as a "Preterist-Futurist?"

Hi RAM,

The term "Preterism-Futurist" is my wish that one day the issues facing preterists and futurists will one day be harmoniously settled. It's my earnest prayer. Don't you want it this way? For man it may be impossible but for God, Nothing is impossible.

Many Blessings.

Richard Amiel McGough
03-15-2010, 11:13 AM
Hi RAM,

The term "Preterism-Futurist" is my wish that one day the issues facing preterists and futurists will one day be harmoniously settled. It's my earnest prayer. Don't you want it this way? For man it may be impossible but for God, Nothing is impossible.

Many Blessings.
I am in absolute agreement with you on this desire! Let us pray it comes to pass. :pray:

And what is the Key that will bring us to this Unity we desire?

One word: Truth.

We know that Preterists and Futurists can not both be correct because they say things that contradict each other. We can not fix this by inventing a nonsensical term like "Preterist-Futurist." That only confuses things. Our job is to establish what the Bible really says so that we can all come closer to the Unity of that Truth. This doesn't mean that any of us will have all the answers - far from it! Many things will remain uncertain and folks will have their different insights. That is a very good thing. But we must establish the foundation of the Truth first.

All the very best my friend,

Richard

gilgal
03-15-2010, 01:47 PM
On the one hand Jesus spoke the parables of the Kingdom setting up the kingdom by opening the minds of men. (What do you think of the saying the ston ewhich the builders rejected has become the head of the corner. And jesus was saying about the stone crushing them? Luke? or Matthew 22?).

On the other hand Jesus mentioned about the abomination of desolation of Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place. Antiochus Epiphanies had done that the 1st time. But Jesus spoke of a future time.

CWH
03-15-2010, 07:36 PM
On the one hand Jesus spoke the parables of the Kingdom setting up the kingdom by opening the minds of men. (What do you think of the saying the ston ewhich the builders rejected has become the head of the corner. And jesus was saying about the stone crushing them? Luke? or Matthew 22?).

On the other hand Jesus mentioned about the abomination of desolation of Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place. Antiochus Epiphanies had done that the 1st time. But Jesus spoke of a future time.

Good questions gilgal,

I believe the part about the corner stone which the builders rejected in the gospel and the part in which the stone crushing the statue in Daniel may or may not be connected. On one hand it seems to say that Jesus or the teachings of Jesus which people rejected is actually the most important part of their life Not believing Jesus would only end in a disastrous death. On the other hand it seems to say that Jesus which they have killed will be the one who will in the end returns in power to destroy them (i.e. the building and the statue).

We are not very sure what the abomination of desolation of Daniel means; anyone's guess is as good as mine but I personally believe it is an event of the future. Antiochus perhaps did that, Titus perhaps did that, the Muslims that built the Dome of the Rock in the 7th century perhaps did that.

Many Blessings to you.

alec cotton
05-05-2010, 12:48 PM
Greetings one and all . I will make a proposition and if anyone can refute it I will be pleased because I can see no alternative. Dan. 8:8 mentions the he goat which is Greece. Verse 9 ,the little horn is Rome . Rome could not be mentioned by name because it did not exist as a power at that time. . Verse 11 .And by him( the Roman power) the daily sacrifice was taken away and the sanctuary( the temple) was cast down. verse 21. The rough he goat is the king of Greece. Verse 23 A king of fierce countenance ( Rome) shall stand up. Dan 11:31 They will take away the daily sacrifice and place the abomination of desolation. These statements are clear and unambiguous. . The daily sacrifice was only taken away once. In 70 A.D. By the Romans. I think that everyone will agree that the principle of one day represents one year applies throughout this book. Why then do so many ignore this principle when the angel says that from the abomination there will be two thousand three hundred days (years) then the sanctuary will be cleansed?
Alec

gilgal
05-05-2010, 02:12 PM
Greetings one and all . I will make a proposition and if anyone can refute it I will be pleased because I can see no alternative. Dan. 8:8 mentions the he goat which is Greece. Verse 9 ,the little horn is Rome . Rome could not be mentioned by name because it did not exist as a power at that time. . Verse 11 .And by him( the Roman power) the daily sacrifice was taken away and the sanctuary( the temple) was cast down. verse 21. The rough he goat is the king of Greece. Verse 23 A king of fierce countenance ( Rome) shall stand up. Dan 11:31 They will take away the daily sacrifice and place the abomination of desolation. These statements are clear and unambiguous. . The daily sacrifice was only taken away once. In 70 A.D. By the Romans. I think that everyone will agree that the principle of one day represents one year applies throughout this book. Why then do so many ignore this principle when the angel says that from the abomination there will be two thousand three hundred days (years) then the sanctuary will be cleansed?
Alec
we're going to have to live 2300 years to find out if that interpretation is true or not.
Daniel 9 mentioned the people of the prince that shall come. I take it that the people are Romans, who destroyed the temple. And the prince is referring as futuristic.

CWH
05-05-2010, 08:15 PM
There are some interesting websites that say the abomination of desolation is the Dome of the Rock on Mount Olives. Although this is highly speculative because no one knows when the end will come or when the Son of man will come but it's worth a thought:

http://www.bibletruth.cc/Body_AbominationofDesolation.htm

Excerpt:
It is simple arithmetic to begin counting from the date of the Abomination that desolates (684 C.E.) and add to that 1335 years. That brings us to the year 2019. In the year 2019, the second part of the prophesy, that which is stated in verse 12, will be fulfilled. This is the time when the Messiah will return and the resurrection is to take place. It is just that simple.

607 B.C. the removal of the tamid

+ 1290 years the “1290 days” of Daniel 12:11

= 684 C.E. the construction of the Abomination – the Dome of the Rock

+ 1335 years the “1335 days” of Daniel 12:12

= 2019 C.E. the time of the return of Messiah and the resurrection of the dead


Another website:

http://www.comeandsee.org/TTW-html/M1chap11.html

Now with all these thoughts in mind, once again I want you to focus on the fact that there just happens to be 1,260 years (42 "months") between 688 (the year they began construction on the Dome of the Rock) and 1948, (when Israel was established as a nation.) Again recall what the Scripture calls for; "...and they will tread the holy city under foot forty-two months."

(**My Note: if 1260 years = 1948, add 75 years to 1260 = 1335, 1335 years = 2023).


Another website: It calculates from AD 691 (end of the building of the Dome of the Rock) + 1335 = 2026. The Dome of the Rock was a clever move by the Muslims to prevent Jews from worshipping in a temple on the Mount of Olives and "This building is preventing the Jews from re-establishing the Temple and its sacrifices for the good of all mankind and the peace of the world.". It somehow represents dominance of Islam over Christianity.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/566126/posts


Excerpt:
Remember, every bit of that oh-so-pretty Arabic arabesque script on this little shrine dating from AD 691, is a slander-in-stone, posing as a sermon-in-stone, against Christianity which had ruled Jerusalem for centuries under Byzantium prior to the Islamic takeover in the AD 638-40 era. "God has no Son. It is Blasphemy to Say He has Taken a Son." would be the least of what is written there. This Dome is not a mosque, and it is an artifact of pure hatred against Christianity.

It also is an artifact of pure hatred against Judaism, for it occupies and stands upon the holy precincts of the Temples of Solomon and of Herod (first and second Temples)...a dog in the manger as it were, which neither itself worships, nor allows the Jews to worship, God as He ought to be. This building is preventing the Jews from re-establishing the Temple and its sacrifices for the good of all mankind and the peace of the world.

As I understand it, the Dome itself stands over the area reserved solely for Jewish men (court of Israel) in the time of Jesus, including the area of the altar of sacrifice and the "holy" (as opposed to Most Holy) place of the Temple (Bet ha Mikdosh) itself. I believe that the place of the Ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy, however, stands on the western steps leading up to the octagonal Dome structure...

Called by Daniel the "Abomination of Desolation" (loathsome thing), this structure was stated in Dan. 11 and 12 to stand until the indignation (wrath) of God against Israel for its sins was over, but that was to end in 1290 or 1335 years from the construction of same in 691. Thus, its fall is up in 1981 or in 2026, and I think the 1981 date referred to the finding of the Ark in that year...


All these are speculatives and we can only wait and see if it comes true.....AD 2019, 2023, 2026. I understand that preterists will say that it will never come true because all predictions from the futurists so far have not come true, but just gives them the benefit of doubt, and if it never comes true well, we can then follow like the preterists by declaring them as false prophets.

Many Blessings

gilgal
05-05-2010, 11:36 PM
There are some interesting websites that say the abomination of desolation is the Dome of the Rock on Mount Olives. Although this is highly speculative because no one knows when the end will come or when the Son of man will come but it's worth a thought:

http://www.bibletruth.cc/Body_AbominationofDesolation.htm

Excerpt:
It is simple arithmetic to begin counting from the date of the Abomination that desolates (684 C.E.) and add to that 1335 years. That brings us to the year 2019. In the year 2019, the second part of the prophesy, that which is stated in verse 12, will be fulfilled. This is the time when the Messiah will return and the resurrection is to take place. It is just that simple.

607 B.C. the removal of the tamid

+ 1290 years the '1290 days' of Daniel 12:11

= 684 C.E. the construction of the Abomination – the Dome of the Rock

+ 1335 years the '1335 days' of Daniel 12:12

= 2019 C.E. the time of the return of Messiah and the resurrection of the dead


Another website:

http://www.comeandsee.org/TTW-html/M1chap11.html

Now with all these thoughts in mind, once again I want you to focus on the fact that there just happens to be 1,260 years (42 "months") between 688 (the year they began construction on the Dome of the Rock) and 1948, (when Israel was established as a nation.) Again recall what the Scripture calls for; "...and they will tread the holy city under foot forty-two months."

(**My Note: if 1260 years = 1948, add 75 years to 1260 = 1335, 1335 years = 2023).


Another website: It calculates from AD 691 (end of the building of the Dome of the Rock) + 1335 = 2026. The Dome of the Rock was a clever move by the Muslims to prevent Jews from worshipping in a temple on the Mount of Olives and "This building is preventing the Jews from re-establishing the Temple and its sacrifices for the good of all mankind and the peace of the world.". It somehow represents dominance of Islam over Christianity.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/566126/posts


Excerpt:
Remember, every bit of that oh-so-pretty Arabic arabesque script on this little shrine dating from AD 691, is a slander-in-stone, posing as a sermon-in-stone, against Christianity which had ruled Jerusalem for centuries under Byzantium prior to the Islamic takeover in the AD 638-40 era. "God has no Son. It is Blasphemy to Say He has Taken a Son." would be the least of what is written there. This Dome is not a mosque, and it is an artifact of pure hatred against Christianity.

It also is an artifact of pure hatred against Judaism, for it occupies and stands upon the holy precincts of the Temples of Solomon and of Herod (first and second Temples)...a dog in the manger as it were, which neither itself worships, nor allows the Jews to worship, God as He ought to be. This building is preventing the Jews from re-establishing the Temple and its sacrifices for the good of all mankind and the peace of the world.

As I understand it, the Dome itself stands over the area reserved solely for Jewish men (court of Israel) in the time of Jesus, including the area of the altar of sacrifice and the "holy" (as opposed to Most Holy) place of the Temple (Bet ha Mikdosh) itself. I believe that the place of the Ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy, however, stands on the western steps leading up to the octagonal Dome structure...

Called by Daniel the "Abomination of Desolation" (loathsome thing), this structure was stated in Dan. 11 and 12 to stand until the indignation (wrath) of God against Israel for its sins was over, but that was to end in 1290 or 1335 years from the construction of same in 691. Thus, its fall is up in 1981 or in 2026, and I think the 1981 date referred to the finding of the Ark in that year...


All these are speculatives and we can only wait and see if it comes true.....AD 2019, 2023, 2026. I understand that preterists will say that it will never come true because all predictions from the futurists so far have not come true, but just gives them the benefit of doubt, and if it never comes true well, we can then follow like the preterists by declaring them as false prophets.

Many Blessings
It bothers me to interpret years for days in Daniel because there's no hint to do so, unlike Numbers and Ezekiel where it says each day for a year.

On the other hand I see within the western world such as US and France the ancient empires have had much to influence our societies. Look at the architectures, philosophy...

CWH
10-03-2010, 07:26 AM
HI gilgal,

You are a partial preterist and a partial futurist, somewhat same as me a preterist-futurist; but I tell you RAM is totally against that idea, you are either a preterist or a futurist never partial.

Thanks for your impressive list of the 10 dynasties. The reason why I said you may be wrong is that you need to understand the statue that Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of. This I have put across in another thread that we need to understand what is the feet of the statue made from iron and clay. This is the most important part and the weakest part of the statue so that when the stone hit the feet the whole statue fell down in one piece. Lets's look at the statue again:

1) We know that the golden head of the statue was the Babylonian Empire
2) The two silver arms was the Mede which later was took over by the Persian, therefore the Medes and Persian Empire
3) The body of bronze was the Greek Empire
4) The 2 legs of Iron was the Roman Empire, Western and Eastern.
5) The 2 feet of the statue of Iron and clay???....? EU and ... ? Arab League. The countries that formed the EU and the Arab League were once the regions or part of the regions of the Roman Empire and therefore have the iron in them. That seems to explain that when the stone hit the feet, the whole statue fall down in one piece meaning that the regions that once were the glory of the Babylonian, Mede-Persian, Greek, Romans will all collapsed into the hands of Jesus when He comes in His power.

http://www.bibleetnombres.online.fr/images6/danimag1.jpg

Many Blessings.

I just have an inspiration, why was the statue of Nebuchadnessar in the form of a man? And this man statue represents the major empires of the known western and middle eastern world? Who was this man that the statue represents? I don't think this man in the statue represented Nebuchadnessar. And why did Christ hit this man statue at his feet to cause the collaspe of these empires?

The statue of Neuchadnessar may represents kingdoms such as the Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman but I believe that the different parts actually represents each great world leaders of their times. The head of gold was Nebuchadnessar... the arms and upper torso of silver was.... Xerxes, the lower torso of brass was....Alexander the Great, the legs of iron was.....perhaps Augustus Caesar, the toes and feet of iron and clay was.....?? antichrist?

There is an artical in the internet that suggest that the feet and toes of the statue is the antichrist system:

http://www.endtimessecrets.com/The_great_statue_in_nebuchadnezzars_dream.htm

I think the man in Nebuchadnessar's statue represents the anti-christ himself who would rule over the world. He would rule the regions once were parts of the Babylonian, Persian, greek and Roman Empire. I believe the anti-christ to be a coming powerful world leader just like what the head, legs, torso etc. represented; it is the statue of the man who is the antichrist. It is by hitting i.e. destroying the antichrist will Christ and the Gospels be able to take over the world. Curiously,there is also a mention of the statue of the Beast in Revelation 12 and it looks like a mutually confirming passage:

11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

Look at Daniel 2 which describes Nebuchadnessar as "You are the head of gold" (of the statue), Does other parts of the body of the statue also represents great world leaders of ancient times?:

31 "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

36 "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

Now I can answer this question of why there was no 5th kingdom? the 1st kingdom...the head of gold was King Nebuchadnessar, the second kingdom....the arms and upper torso was King Xerxes, the third kingdom....the lower torso was King Alexander the Great, the fourth kingdom ....the legs was Augustus Caesar. There is no fifth kingdom of iron and clay because there is no king to rule a non-existing kingdom. The antichrist is a future leader that will rule a large area that is not a kingdom and therefore he cannot have the title of a "king". We don't call Obama as King Obama because the US is not a kingdom.

Many Blessings.

gilgal
10-03-2010, 02:48 PM
In the book of Acts the 2nd chapter people from the 4 parts of the statue were present on the day of Pentecost to bring the message back to their land:


Acts 2
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


Now listen to this. Jesus did preach the Gospel of the Kingdom in parables. The wheat and the tares...the tares were taken out but the wheat remained.

Acts 2 goes along with Matthew 24 that the gospel must be preached first and THEN the end will come. So the Gospel is preached in Acts and in Revelation the end comes.

Though I may not agree in everything John Daniel says in Scarlet and the Beast you might want to check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/user/scarletandthebeast

CWH
10-04-2010, 10:53 AM
Now listen to this. Jesus did preach the Gospel of the Kingdom in parables. The wheat and the tares...the tares were taken out but the wheat remained.

Acts 2 goes along with Matthew 24 that the gospel must be preached first and THEN the end will come. So the Gospel is preached in Acts and in Revelation the end comes.

Though I may not agree in everything John Daniel says in Scarlet and the Beast you might want to check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/user/scarletandthebeast

People have been preaching the Gospels since AD 30s till now but the end has yet to come. Were their preaching of the gospels in vain? If the end had already come then what is the point of preaching the Gospels today?



In the book of Acts the 2nd chapter people from the 4 parts of the statue were present on the day of Pentecost to bring the message back to their land:

Have you realized that the 4 kingdoms of the statue were 2 western (Roman and Greek) and 2 Middle Eastern (Babylonian and Persian); none were from the northern and southern regions? So the 4 parts of the statue does not seems to represent the 4 corners of the world.

It is interesting to note that the statue of Nebuchadnessar was arranged in chronological order starting with the head, then Babylonian (bout 600 BC) then the Persian (about 500 BC), then the Greek (about 300 BC) then the Romans (about 100 BC) and then ends with the clay + iron (about ? years); from one golden head and ends with the 10 toes representing the 10 heads of the Beast....the EU?

Many Blessings.

gilgal
10-04-2010, 02:11 PM
Have you realized that the 4 kingdoms of the statue were 2 western (Roman and Greek) and 2 Middle Eastern (Babylonian and Persian); none were from the northern and southern regions? So the 4 parts of the statue does not seems to represent the 4 corners of the world.

I doubt. Greece occupied most of present Turkey which would be Israel's north.


It is interesting to note that the statue of Nebuchadnessar was arranged in chronological order starting with the head, then Babylonian (bout 600 BC) then the Persian (about 500 BC), then the Greek (about 300 BC) then the Romans (about 100 BC) and then ends with the clay + iron (about ? years); from one golden head and ends with the 10 toes representing the 10 heads of the Beast....the EU?
Notice that the stone hit the statue all at once?

CWH
10-04-2010, 05:50 PM
I doubt. Greece occupied most of present Turkey which would be Israel's north.

Notice that the stone hit the statue all at once?

I don't see the statue as pointing to the regions north, east, south, west of Israel. I see it as the image of the antichrist and it represents the antichrist system started since the Babylonian Empire whereby Israel was conquered and its people exiled into a foreign land. All the 4 kingdoms listed, the Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Romans occupied Israel and no doubt the antichrist who will also occupied the regions of those empires too when he comes. (Note that Israel have been occupied by other countries since the Babylonian empire and have never existed as an independent country since 1948). By destroying the antichrist, Christ would destroy the antichrist system built since the Babylonian Empire thus allowing the Gospel to be spread throughout those regions. Currently, it has been difficult to spread the Gospel to the staunchly Islamic countries of the AL because of their anti-Christian and anti-Israel stance (antichrist system) but that would be solved once Christ came to destroy the antichrist and its system.

Many Blessings.

gilgal
10-04-2010, 10:03 PM
I don't see the statue as pointing to the regions north, east, south, west of Israel. I see it as the image of the antichrist and it represents the antichrist system started since the Babylonian Empire whereby Israel was conquered and its people exiled into a foreign land. All the 4 kingdoms listed, the Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Romans occupied Israel and no doubt the antichrist who will also occupied the regions of those empires too when he comes. (Note that Israel have been occupied by other countries since the Babylonian empire and have never existed as an independent country since 1948). By destroying the antichrist, Christ would destroy the antichrist system built since the Babylonian Empire thus allowing the Gospel to be spread throughout those regions. Currently, it has been difficult to spread the Gospel to the staunchly Islamic countries of the AL because of their anti-Christian and anti-Israel stance (antichrist system) but that would be solved once Christ came to destroy the antichrist and its system.

Many Blessings.
You'd be surprised that the presidents' lineages go back to ancient Assyrian/Babylonians kings. The Rothschilds claim that their lineage goes back to Nimrod!

Fritz Springmeir made the assumption that the Anti-Christ would have Rothschild and Merovyngian (European Royalty) blood.

CWH
10-05-2010, 05:39 AM
You'd be surprised that the presidents' lineages go back to ancient Assyrian/Babylonians kings. The Rothschilds claim that their lineage goes back to Nimrod!

Fritz Springmeir made the assumption that the Anti-Christ would have Rothschild and Merovyngian (European Royalty) blood.

I would be surprised...we are all descended from royal blood given that our ancestor's chiefs usually have multiple partners and emperors may have hundreds or thousands of concubines....I wonder how they survived every night. :lol:

http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/article.aspx?article=5921

Many Blessings.

CWH
11-11-2010, 03:04 AM
Well. we all know that the statue of the dream of Nebuchadnessar consists of:

1) the golden head of the statue was the Babylonian Empire
2) The two silver arms was the Mede which later was took over by the Persian, therefore the Medes and Persian Empire
3) The body of bronze was the Greek Empire
4) The 2 legs of Iron was the Roman Empire, Western and Eastern.
5) The 2 feet and toes of the statue of Iron and clay???

Using the atomic No. of the metals and the clay, I realized there may be some significance here or perhaps a co-incidence. I am not sure what all these signifies:

1) The atomic number of gold is 79
2) The atomic number of silver is 47
3) The atomic number of bronze is copper = 29 and tin = 50 (add copper and tin = 79)
4) The atomic number of iron is 26. Pure iron is brittle and cannnot be used in construction and therefore, the iron mentioned in Daniel is steel which consists of iron (26) and main impurity is carbon (6). Therefore, steel is iron = 26 and carbon = 6 (add them togetther = 32).
5) Clay is amorphous aluminium silicate (mainly Aluminium and Silicon) which contains several other minerals in small amount such as calcium, magnesium, sodium, iron etc. The atomic number of Aluminium is 13 and Silicon is 14 and another mineral say calcium is atomic number 20 (add them together and they total = 47).
6) Steel and clay represented by the toes and feet of the statue is = 79 (steel = 32 + clay = 47 = 79).

The discovery is probably a coincidence which seems to suggest:
1) The head of Gold is Babylonian Empire = 79 comparable to the bronze, that is the Greek Empire (copper + bronze = 79), is comparable to the Iron and Clay Empire? = 79. In other words, the Babylonians is equals to the Greeks and the ?EU in power?
2) The silver empire of the Mede/Persian (47) is comparable to the ?Clay empire? (47)
3) Thre Roman Empire of Steel (Iron + Carbon) = 32 is rather unique, but however add the silver empire of the Mede/Persian or the Clay Empire and it becomes 79, comparable to the head of gold. In other words, the Roman Empire combined with the Mede Empire or the Clay Empire is comparable in strength to the Babylonians.

Periodic Table of Elements:

http://www.webelements.com/


Many Blessings.

gilgal
11-11-2010, 08:08 AM
Well. we all know that the statue of the dream of Nebuchadnessar consists of:

1) the golden head of the statue was the Babylonian Empire
2) The two silver arms was the Mede which later was took over by the Persian, therefore the Medes and Persian Empire
3) The body of bronze was the Greek Empire
4) The 2 legs of Iron was the Roman Empire, Western and Eastern.
5) The 2 feet and toes of the statue of Iron and clay???

Using the atomic No. of the metals and the clay, I realized there may be some significance here or perhaps a co-incidence. I am not sure what all these signifies:

1) The atomic number of gold is 79
2) The atomic number of silver is 47
3) The atomic number of bronze is copper = 29 and tin = 50 (add copper and tin = 79)
4) The atomic number of iron is 26. Pure iron is brittle and cannnot be used in construction and therefore, the iron mentioned in Daniel is steel which consists of iron (26) and main impurity is carbon (6). Therefore, steel is iron = 26 and carbon = 6 (add them togetther = 32).
5) Clay is amorphous aluminium silicate (mainly Aluminium and Silicon) which contains several other minerals in small amount such as calcium, magnesium, sodium, iron etc. The atomic number of Aluminium is 13 and Silicon is 14 and another mineral say calcium is atomic number 20 (add them together and they total = 47).
6) Steel and clay represented by the toes and feet of the statue is = 79 (steel = 32 + clay = 47 = 79).

The discovery is probably a coincidence which seems to suggest:
1) The head of Gold is Babylonian Empire = 79 comparable to the bronze, that is the Greek Empire (copper + bronze = 79), is comparable to the Iron and Clay Empire? = 79. In other words, the Babylonians is equals to the Greeks and the ?EU in power?
2) The silver empire of the Mede/Persian (47) is comparable to the ?Clay empire? (47)
3) Thre Roman Empire of Steel (Iron + Carbon) = 32 is rather unique, but however add the silver empire of the Mede/Persian or the Clay Empire and it becomes 79, comparable to the head of gold. In other words, the Roman Empire combined with the Mede Empire or the Clay Empire is comparable in strength to the Babylonians.

Periodic Table of Elements:

http://www.webelements.com/


Many Blessings.
interesting that the statue shows decreasing value.

gilgal
11-11-2010, 06:23 PM
If I'm not mistaken gold, silver bronze are mentioned in Spoke 2:
Genesis 2 mentions gold;
Exodus all of them;
Daniel 2 of course;
Matthew 2 gold.

CWH
11-12-2010, 04:15 AM
interesting that the statue shows decreasing value.

Yes, I have observed that too and it seems to suggest a historical timeline descending then ascending i.e. from BC to AD:

Gold (Babylon) = 79 = BC 600
Silver (Medes/Persian) = 47 = BC 400
Bronze (Greek) = 29 (+ 50) = BC 200 (Bronze is primarily Copper 88% and 12% Tin)
Iron/Steel (Roman) = 26 (+ 6) = BC 100 (Carbon Steel is about 92% Iron and 8% Carbon)
Clay = 14 (+ 13) = BC ?? (Clay is predominantly more Silicon than Aluminium)
Iron + Clay = 26+14 = 40 (+ 19) = AD ??

Many Blessings.

CWH
11-15-2010, 04:44 AM
interesting that the statue shows decreasing value.

Agree again.
Gold is highest in term of monetary value, followed by silver, bronze, iron/steel, clay/clay mixed with iron/steel. It also denotes increasing hardness of the materials. Gold is the softest followed by silver, bronze, iron/steel, but however, clay or clay mixed with iron/steel may not be as strong as iron/steel and none is as strong as the "rock" i.e. Jesus that breaks all these empires which are part of the antichrist and anti-Israel conspiracies that were started since the Babylonian Empire till to date. That was why Israel was never an independent nation since the Babylonian Empire in BC 600 till 1948 because Israel was continuously being dominated by other powers especially her Muslim neighbors. Even a mosque was purposely built on the Temple Mount to ensure that Christianity/Israel does not have a strong foothold on the sacred Temple Mount shared by Islam, Christianity and Judaism. That Mosque known as the Dome of the Rock is a symbol of Islam dominating and reigning over all Christianity and it displays an ambition that one day Christianity will be destroyed together with the annihilation of Israel, and Islam will become the only and one world religion. The only person that could destroy such conspiracy and ambition is Jesus. *Note the co-incidence of the mosque named Dome of the Rock and the "Rock" that is to destroy all those antichrist and anti-Israel conspirators.

Since gold, silver, bronze, iron/steel are metal or metal alloys, the odd one out is clay mixed with iron/steel. It does suggest that the kingdom of clay mixed with iron/steel is unique and of a different quality or perhaps of a different historical timeline compared to those metals and alloys. Since the clay consist of Iron is suggestive of its relation or former realtions to the Roman Empire. Is this suggestive of a different empire than that of the Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Romans? This is suggestive of my previous post indicating the possible differences in the historical timelines of those empires:

I have observed that it seems to suggest a historical timeline descending then ascending i.e. from BC to AD:

Gold 79 (Babylon) started in about BC 600 till about BC 400
Silver 47 (Medes/Persian) started in about BC 400 till about BC 300
Bronze 29 (Greek) started in about BC 200 till about BC 100
Iron 26 (Roman)started in about BC 100 till about AD 400
Iron + Clay 40 (?Revived Roman Empire?) started AD ?? till AD ??

*Note the "Rock" that hit the base of the statue made of Iron mixed with Clay (?Revived Roman Empire?) will destroy the grandeur and the descendants of those former empires of the Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman that conspired against Christ and against Israel.

Many Blessings.

gilgal
11-15-2010, 06:07 AM
Agree again.
Gold is highest in term of monetary value, followed by silver, bronze, iron/steel, clay/clay mixed with iron/steel. It also denotes increasing hardness of the materials. Gold is the softest followed by silver, bronze, iron/steel, but however, clay or clay mixed with iron/steel may not be as strong as iron/steel and none is as strong as the "rock" i.e. Jesus that breaks all these empires which are part of the antichrist and anti-Israel conspiracies that were started since the Babylonian Empire till to date. That was why Israel was never an independent nation since the Babylonian Empire in BC 600 till 1948 because Israel was continuously being dominated by other powers especially her Muslim neighbors. Even a mosque was purposely built on the Temple Mount to ensure that Christianity/Israel does not have a strong foothold on the sacred Temple Mount shared by Islam, Christianity and Judaism. That Mosque known as the Dome of the Rock is a symbol of Islam dominating and reigning over all Christianity and it displays an ambition that one day Christianity will be destroyed together with the annihilation of Israel, and Islam will become the only and one world religion. The only person that could destroy such conspiracy and ambition is Jesus. *Note the co-incidence of the mosque named Dome of the Rock and the "Rock" that is to destroy all those antichrist and anti-Israel conspirators.

Since gold, silver, bronze, iron/steel are metal or metal alloys, the odd one out is clay mixed with iron/steel. It does suggest that the kingdom of clay mixed with iron/steel is unique and of a different quality or perhaps of a different historical timeline compared to those metals and alloys. Since the clay consist of Iron is suggestive of its relation or former realtions to the Roman Empire. Is this suggestive of a different empire than that of the Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Romans? This is suggestive of my previous post indicating the possible differences in the historical timelines of those empires:

I have observed that it seems to suggest a historical timeline descending then ascending i.e. from BC to AD:

Gold 79 (Babylon) started in about BC 600 till about BC 400
Silver 47 (Medes/Persian) started in about BC 400 till about BC 300
Bronze 29 (Greek) started in about BC 200 till about BC 100
Iron 26 (Roman)started in about BC 100 till about AD 400
Iron + Clay 40 (?Revived Roman Empire?) started AD ?? till AD ??

*Note the "Rock" that hit the base of the statue made of Iron mixed with Clay (?Revived Roman Empire?) will destroy the grandeur and the descendants of those former empires of the Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman that conspired against Christ and against Israel.

Many Blessings.
If it wasn't for Zionism Jews and Palestinians would have gotten along well together. Of course it would have been better if there were no Islam nor Talmudic Judaism either. But Zionism is the cause of kicking Palestinians off the land which lived for centuries and bring in Jews who lived abroad. Of course if there were no Hitler or Stalin there would not have been any desire to return to their "homeland" either. In other words the world powers are doing this.

CWH
11-15-2010, 07:17 AM
If it wasn't for Zionism Jews and Palestinians would have gotten along well together. Of course it would have been better if there were no Islam nor Talmudic Judaism either. But Zionism is the cause of kicking Palestinians off the land which lived for centuries and bring in Jews who lived abroad. Of course if there were no Hitler or Stalin there would not have been any desire to return to their "homeland" either. In other words the world powers are doing this.

I think it is part of God's plan in which the 4,000 years enmity between Israel (Jews) and Esau (Palestinian) over their birthright will be settled once and for all. Currently, no one have been able to solve this problem, do you think the Obama administration can solve this problem?

I do think Hitler and Stalin were part of God's plan to get the Jews back to Israel...just like what God did with the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem and causing the Dispersion and forcing the Christians and Jews to flee other countries and thus spreading Christianity beyond the borders of the Roman Empire.

Same with the independence of Israel in 1948 which I believe is God's plan. The Arabs have never expected the Israelites to get independence so fast in just one day. They expected Israel to be under their dominance just as in the years past since the time of Nebuchadnessar. That was why they are ever eager to wipe Israel from the map of the world. Doing so will also enhanced the prestige of Islam and demoralize Christianity and Judaism thus making way for Islam to be the only one world religion. So far Israel have been able to survive the onslaughts and come out victorious in the many wars with the Arabs and the Palestinians. God is on Israel's side. But by the time "When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.(Daniel 12)'. What power?..... ? the power bestowed on Israel in the wars against the Arabs? What are all these things completed?....? when the antichrist managed to annihilate Israel? Obviously, Daniel started with the statue representing the antichrist and anti-Israel system started since Nebuchadnessar's time in which the Jews were deported, humiliated and Jerusalem destroyed and their land seized and such things goes on several times during the Romans and Muslims era. It will end with the destruction of this antichrist and anti-Israel system so that Israel will once again regain the glory and land due to them forever as promised by God. To me, this is what the whole story of the book of Daniel is all about.

Many Blessings.

gilgal
11-15-2010, 07:36 AM
I think it is part of God's plan in which the 4,000 years enmity between Israel (Jews) and Esau (Palestinian) over their birthright will be settled once and for all. Currently, no one have been able to solve this problem, do you think the Obama administration can solve this problem?

I do think Hitler and Stalin were part of God's plan to get the Jews back to Israel...just like what God did with the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem and causing the Dispersion and forcing the Christians and Jews to flee other countries and thus spreading Christianity beyond the borders of the Roman Empire.

Same with the independence of Israel in 1948 which I believe is God's plan. The Arabs have never expected the Israelites to get independence so fast in just one day. They expected Israel to be under their dominance just as in the years past since the time of Nebuchadnessar. That was why they are ever eager to wipe Israel from the map of the world. Doing so will also enhanced the prestige of Islam and demoralize Christianity and Judaism thus making way for Islam to be the only one world religion. So far Israel have been able to survive the onslaughts and come out victorious in the many wars with the Arabs and the Palestinians. God is on Israel's side. But by the time "When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.(Daniel 12)'. What power?..... ? the power bestowed on Israel in the wars against the Arabs? What are all these things completed?....? when the antichrist managed to annihilate Israel? Obviously, Daniel started with the statue representing the antichrist and anti-Israel system started since Nebuchadnessar's time in which the Jews were deported, humiliated and Jerusalem destroyed and their land seized and such things goes on several times during the Romans and Muslims era. It will end with the destruction of this antichrist and anti-Israel system so that Israel will once again regain the glory and land due to them forever as promised by God. To me, this is what the whole story of the book of Daniel is all about.

Many Blessings.
Yeah God's plan is one thing but his will is something else.

He tells the end from the beginning but his will is to have a pure heart towards all men.

What happened when David committed adultery? Of course Solomon was born from Bathsheba but the first child died as well as many from David's descendants because of his sin.

Again God knows what's going to happen. But his will was that David should have left her alone because she belonged to his neighbor (and a Gentile, Uriah the Hittite, so God is not a respecter of persons, and neither should we be a respecter of persons. Palestinians are God's creation too in his image.)

CWH
11-15-2010, 09:52 AM
Yeah God's plan is one thing but his will is something else.

He tells the end from the beginning but his will is to have a pure heart towards all men.

What happened when David committed adultery? Of course Solomon was born from Bathsheba but the first child died as well as many from David's descendants because of his sin.

Again God knows what's going to happen. But his will was that David should have left her alone because she belonged to his neighbor (and a Gentile, Uriah the Hittite, so God is not a respecter of persons, and neither should we be a respecter of persons. Palestinians are God's creation too in his image.)

What I am trying to illustrate is that those who participated in the antichrist and anti-Israel system will be punished. Would God allowed the destruction of Jerusalem and more than 1 million Jews in AD 70? Of course not but the curse was on them because of their participation in the condemnation of Jesus, an act that could be considered an antichrist conspiracy.

Yes, Palestinians are God's creation too, so are Zionist Jews. I am not against Palestinians or Arabs or Zionist Jews but I believe that whoever from whichever race who participated in anti-christ activities and are unrepentent will not go unpunished. Same as those who have the mark of the anti-christ which represents their support and endorsement of their allegiance to the antichrist and his activities. They also will not go unpunished if they are unrepentent.

Many Blessings.

gilgal
11-15-2010, 04:02 PM
What I am trying to illustrate is that those who participated in the antichrist and anti-Israel system will be punished. Would God allowed the destruction of Jerusalem and more than 1 million Jews in AD 70? Of course not but the curse was on them because of their participation in the condemnation of Jesus, an act that could be considered an antichrist conspiracy.

Yes, Palestinians are God's creation too, so are Zionist Jews. I am not against Palestinians or Arabs or Zionist Jews but I believe that whoever from whichever race who participated in anti-christ activities and are unrepentent will not go unpunished. Same as those who have the mark of the anti-christ which represents their support and endorsement of their allegiance to the antichrist and his activities. They also will not go unpunished if they are unrepentent.

Many Blessings.

You're not against Zionists? So you don't mind the government taking your taxpayer's money and sending to Israel? or sending your fine men as soldiers to Iraq to fight for Israel? Who cares if they die or kill innocent Iraqis, right?

Did you hear about what Barak Obama did to Rahm Emanuel?
Obama Tells Jews, "No More" (http://www.texemarrs.com/102010/obama_tells_jews_no_more.htm)
The President Finally Stands Up to the World’s Tormentors—Will All Hell Now Break Loose?

This same Rahm Emanuel was the reason Clinton got impeached because he brought in Monica Lewinsky who told Clinton's secrets since he didn't want to invade Iraq at first.

CWH
11-15-2010, 07:15 PM
You're not against Zionists? So you don't mind the government taking your taxpayer's money and sending to Israel? or sending your fine men as soldiers to Iraq to fight for Israel? Who cares if they die or kill innocent Iraqis, right?

Did you hear about what Barak Obama did to Rahm Emanuel?
Obama Tells Jews, "No More" (http://www.texemarrs.com/102010/obama_tells_jews_no_more.htm)
The President Finally Stands Up to the World’s Tormentors—Will All Hell Now Break Loose?

This same Rahm Emanuel was the reason Clinton got impeached because he brought in Monica Lewinsky who told Clinton's secrets since he didn't want to invade Iraq at first.

Of course, there are always black sheep in the family. Don't the American soldiers in Iraq killed innocent victims? Do you think most Iraqis like the American presence on their soil?

As Christians, I think whether you like or hate someone, our outlook should be this:

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.....if you love those who love you, what reward will you get?".

Love it or hate it, we are all God's creation.

Many Blessings.

CWH
11-20-2010, 07:36 PM
I am interested in the identity of the feet of the clay mixed with Iron. We all know without doubt the identity of the head of gold, the chest and arms of silver, the torso of bronze and the legs of iron but the feet and toes of clay mixed with iron?

The followings so far has been associated with the feet and toes of clay mixed with iron:

1) the statue started with the head of gold and ended up at the ten toes i.e. from the Babylonians empire in the 6th century BC to the Romans empire in the 5th century AD to ?? AD with the ten toes representing 10 kings or kingdoms.
2) the timeline using the atomic number of the metals and materials of gold, silver, copper, iron, aluminium silicate mixed with iron suggest a timeline from BC to AD
3) the metals and material seems to suggest decreasing monetary value from gold, silver, bronze, iron, clay mixed with iron. It does reminds me of how small our currency is compared to the currency used in ancient times. I heard 1 denarius is about US$20. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denarius
4) they also suggest hardness from soft gold, to hard steel/iron to the impenetrable hardness of clay mixed with iron....?concrete with reinforced steel (material used in modern day construction)
5) Using a world map, the capitals and empires of Babylon, Mede/Persian, Greek, Romans seems to move in a north to north westernly direction from Babylon (gold), Susa(silver), Athens(bronze), Rome(iron) and ??? (clay mixed with iron)......?Brussels.
6) The rock hitting the feet of the statue suggests Christ or Christianity destroying all these kingdoms/descendants/countries in one fell swoop.
7) All the countries listed in the empires of Babylon, Persian/Mede, Greek, Romans, ? Clay mixed with Iron comprised of almost all modern days countries of the EU and Arab League.
8) According to Daniel 2, this clay mixed with iron kingdom is a divided kingdom, a mixture of nations, partially strong but not very united. Certainly sounds like the EU and the AL which comprises of various independent nations under pacts with their own national policies and not very agreeable among themselves in regards to certain policies such as trade and defence policies.

41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay

Anyone?

Many Blessings.

CWH
11-26-2010, 04:48 AM
I have superimpose the statue in Daniel into the map of Europe and Middle East. The statue of Daniel is obviously facing the northwest direction from Babylon towards Europe.The golden head of the statue is in Iraq where Babylon was, the silver right arm in Persia (Susa) and the left arm somewhere in Jordan (both were once parts of the Persian Empire), the body/torso of Bronze somewhere near Greece (Athens) and the iron legs somewhere near Rome and the ten toes somewhere in Europe in Germany and Spain which are members of the EU. This is to show that the statue Daniel indicates the positionings of the countries and capitals representing the Babylonian Empire, the Persian and Medes, the Greek and the Roman Empire.....And the feet with the ten toes made of iron mixed with clay?......? Western Europe......? the EU....... ? the Revived Roman Empire?


http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/cheowweehock/Slide1.jpg

Many Blessings.

gilgal
11-26-2010, 05:49 AM
I have superimpose the statue in Daniel into the map of Europe and Middle East. The statue of Daniel is obviously facing the northwest direction from Babylon towards Europe.The golden head of the statue is in Iraq where Babylon was, the silver right arm in Persia (Susa) and the left arm somewhere in Jordan (both were once parts of the Persian Empire), the body/torso of Bronze somewhere near Greece (Athens) and the iron legs somewhere near Rome and the ten toes somewhere in Europe in Germany and Spain which are members of the EU. This is to show that the statue Daniel indicates the positionings of the countries and capitals representing the Babylonian Empire, the Persian and Medes, the Greek and the Roman Empire.....And the feet with the ten toes made of iron mixed with clay?......? Western Europe......? the EU....... ? the Revived Roman Empire?


http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/cheowweehock/Slide1.jpg

Many Blessings.
Oh come on Cheow Wee Hock you're making up stories. How do you know this:

The statue of Daniel is obviously facing the northwest direction from Babylon towards Europe.
What were the capital/s of Greece? It was divided into four so I imagine it to have 4 capitals.

CWH
11-26-2010, 07:19 AM
Oh come on Cheow Wee Hock you're making up stories. How do you know this:

What were the capital/s of Greece? It was divided into four so I imagine it to have 4 capitals.

Hi Gigal,

You are entitled to your own opinion as I am entitled to mine. I am not seeking an argument with you. Yes, Greece empire was broken up into 4 capitals, so was the Persian empire broken up into 2 and the capitals were shifted to more than 2 capitals, so were the Romans broken up into 2 capitals of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. And into numerous capitals after the disintegration of the Western Roman Empire. What I am saying here is that I am using the main capitals as just one of the reference points, note I also mentioned about the regions that were occupied by those empires. And it SEEMS to me that the direction that those empires were moving in a western or northwestern direction. This can be proved by the Babylonian empire which started from Iraq and moving westward into Middle East and then towards Turkey and Egypt, followed by the Persian Empire which occupied most of the regions of the Babylonian empire and also seemed to move westward towards Greece, then followed by Greece empire which also occupied most of the regions of the Persian and Baylonian Empire and also seemed to expand westward occupying towards Italy, followed by the Roman Empire which occupied most of the region of the Greece empire and seemed to moved westward occupying Britain and Spain. So all those 4 empires seemed to be occupying those former regions occupied by former empires and expanded in a western/northwestward direction.....How about the (kingdom) of the feet and the ten toes made of iron and clay?.....which likely also moved in a westward and northwestward direction whilst occupying the regions of those former great empires.

41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay

Many Blessings.

CWH
11-26-2010, 11:32 AM
Below are the maps of the 4 empires of Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman. They seemed to show the expand of these 4 empires towards the west or northwest starting from Babylonian Empire:

Babylonian Empire:
http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/cheowweehock/babylonia.jpg

Mede/Persian Empire:
http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/cheowweehock/persian-empire-map.jpg

Greek Empire:
http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/cheowweehock/EmpireAlexanderHR.jpg

Roman Empire:
http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/cheowweehock/roman.jpg


And the map of the kingdom of the feet and ten toes made of iron mixed with clay?.........

Many Blessings.

gilgal
11-26-2010, 03:28 PM
Greek Empire:
http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/cheowweehock/EmpireAlexanderHR.jpg


Notice the Scythians were up in the north? Ezekiel's Gog.

CWH
11-30-2010, 05:33 AM
Hi Gigal,

You are entitled to your own opinion as I am entitled to mine. I am not seeking an argument with you. Yes, Greece empire was broken up into 4 capitals, so was the Persian empire broken up into 2 and the capitals were shifted to more than 2 capitals, so were the Romans broken up into 2 capitals of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. And into numerous capitals after the disintegration of the Western Roman Empire. What I am saying here is that I am using the main capitals as just one of the reference points, note I also mentioned about the regions that were occupied by those empires. And it SEEMS to me that the direction that those empires were moving in a western or northwestern direction. This can be proved by the Babylonian empire which started from Iraq and moving westward into Middle East and then towards Turkey and Egypt, followed by the Persian Empire which occupied most of the regions of the Babylonian empire and also seemed to move westward towards Greece, then followed by Greece empire which also occupied most of the regions of the Persian and Baylonian Empire and also seemed to expand westward occupying towards Italy, followed by the Roman Empire which occupied most of the region of the Greece empire and seemed to moved westward occupying Britain and Spain. So all those 4 empires seemed to be occupying those former regions occupied by former empires and expanded in a western/northwestward direction.....How about the (kingdom) of the feet and the ten toes made of iron and clay?.....which likely also moved in a westward and northwestward direction whilst occupying the regions of those former great empires.

41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

Many Blessings.

If those empires of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Romans were expanding in an Westward or Northwestward direction while occupying those regions of the empires before them and the ten toes of the feet of the statue in Daniel seems to represent the nations of Europe then it reminds us of the colonial powers...the British, French, Italians, Spanish who later came and occupy Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon Libya, Tunisia, Ethiopia, Algeria, Morocco which were once the regions of the Babylon, Persian, Greek and Romans empires. The British, French, Portuguese and Spaniards even went further westwards or northwestwards or southwesternwards into colonizing North America and Middle America and eventually, the whole of the North and South America were colonized by the Western European powers. Therefore, were those Western colonial powers which presently are members of the EU, the ten toes of the statue in Daniel?

Many Blessings

gilgal
11-30-2010, 11:27 AM
Many Blessings.

If those empires of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Romans were expanding in an Westward or Northwestward direction while occupying those regions of the empires before them and the ten toes of the feet of the statue in Daniel seems to represent the nations of Europe then it reminds us of the colonial powers...the British, French, Italians, Spanish who later came and occupy Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon Libya, Tunisia, Ethiopia, Algeria, Morocco which were once the regions of the Babylon, Persian, Greek and Romans empires. The British, French, Portuguese and Spaniards even went further westwards or northwestwards or southwesternwards into colonizing North America and Middle America and eventually, the whole of the North and South America were colonized by the Western European powers. Therefore, were those Western colonial powers which presently are members of the EU, the ten toes of the statue in Daniel?

Many Blessings
I still find it difficult to associate them with present day Europe. That was the impression of the early reformers while they viewed the Catholic Church as the Mother of Harlots because of the Inquisition. And the main city was Rome, the Vatican. And it may meant to be true back then especially since it is located on 7 hills. But now they say that there were (and are) other cities, big and important cities that are located on 7 hills/mountains, Jerusalem being one of them.

I jumped off topic to give you an illustration for caution in interpreting prophecies. I would advise however to look for the meaning of the symbolism used within these prophecies. What is the significance of horns, beasts, metals...

CWH
11-30-2010, 03:18 PM
I still find it difficult to associate them with present day Europe. That was the impression of the early reformers while they viewed the Catholic Church as the Mother of Harlots because of the Inquisition. And the main city was Rome, the Vatican. And it may meant to be true back then especially since it is located on 7 hills. But now they say that there were (and are) other cities, big and important cities that are located on 7 hills/mountains, Jerusalem being one of them.

I jumped off topic to give you an illustration for caution in interpreting prophecies. I would advise however to look for the meaning of the symbolism used within these prophecies. What is the significance of horns, beasts, metals...

Thanks for your concern and that's exactly what I am researching about.... the identity of the ten toes/horns, and looking at every area leaving no stones unturned. I do understand and respect your views from your research that the ten toes/horns were the ten kings of the Eastern Roman Empire. I am not here to convince anyone about my research but to present my views, hoping that one day down the road, it could be validated or referred. And as from all research, I am aware that there is always an element of error.

Now back to topic. Surprisingly as one look at the map of the EU, there were 10 former European colonial powers that currently are the members of EU which once occupied the regions of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Roman Empires and moved westward to colonize the Americas. They were:
1) Portugal
2) Spain
3) Britain
4) France
5) Holland
6) Belgium
7) Germany
8) Denmark
9) Italy
10) Sweden

Are these ten nations of the EU mentioned which were also ten former colonial powers of Europe, the ten toes or the ten horns?....thus suggesting the ten toes/horns as the current EU? This topic is related to our discussions on the identity of the ten horns which the readers may want to refer:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1082

http://abs.eea.europa.eu/portal_skins/custom/EU_map.jpg

Surprisingly also, the current European western Union comprised of 10 nations of Western Europe and 8 of them were former European colonial powers:

"The Western European Union has existed since 1954 and today includes 10 European countries Belgium, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and the United Kingdom. It has a Council and Secretariat formerly located in London and based in Brussels since January 1993, and a Parliamentary Assembly in Paris. The WEU has its origins in the Brussels Treaty of Economic, Social and Cultural Collaboration and Collective Self-Defence of 1948, signed by Belgium, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union

There are also 5 observer nations of the WEU of which 2 were former European colonial powers:
Observer countries: (Rome - 1992)
Observer countries were members of the European Union, but not of NATO. 1
Austria (1995)
Denmark 1
Finland (1995)
Ireland
Sweden (1995)
And the flag of the WEU which is a defense pact of the EU consists of 10 stars shaped like a U shaped horn!:

http://flagspot.net/images/e/eu^weu.gif

Many Blessings.

gilgal
11-30-2010, 04:49 PM
Thanks for your concern and that's exactly what I am researching about.... the identity of the ten toes/horns, and looking at every area leaving no stones unturned. I do understand and respect your views from your research that the ten toes/horns were the ten kings of the Eastern Roman Empire. I am not here to convince anyone about my research but to present my views, hoping that one day down the road, it could be validated or referred. And as from all research, I am aware that there is always an element of error.

Now back to topic. Surprisingly as one look at the map of the EU, there were 10 former European colonial powers that currently are the members of EU which once occupied the regions of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Roman Empires and moved westward to colonize the Americas. They were:
1) Portugal
2) Spain
3) Britain
4) France
5) Holland
6) Belgium
7) Germany
8) Denmark
9) Italy
10) Sweden

Are these ten nations of the EU mentioned which were also ten former colonial powers of Europe, the ten toes or the ten horns?....thus suggesting the ten toes/horns as the current EU? This topic is related to our discussions on the identity of the ten horns which the readers may want to refer:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1082

http://abs.eea.europa.eu/portal_skins/custom/EU_map.jpg

Surprisingly also, the current European western Union comprised of 10 nations of Western Europe and 8 of them were former European colonial powers:

"The Western European Union has existed since 1954 and today includes 10 European countries Belgium, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and the United Kingdom. It has a Council and Secretariat formerly located in London and based in Brussels since January 1993, and a Parliamentary Assembly in Paris. The WEU has its origins in the Brussels Treaty of Economic, Social and Cultural Collaboration and Collective Self-Defence of 1948, signed by Belgium, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union

There are also 5 observer nations of the WEU of which 2 were former European colonial powers:
Observer countries: (Rome - 1992)
Observer countries were members of the European Union, but not of NATO. 1
Austria (1995)
Denmark 1
Finland (1995)
Ireland
Sweden (1995)
And the flag of the WEU which is a defense pact of the EU consists of 10 stars shaped like a U shaped horn!:

http://flagspot.net/images/e/eu^weu.gif

Many Blessings.
Do you agree that the bible interprets the bible? Where in the bible do you find that horns or toes represent nations? Should we assume that the 2 horns in the second beast which looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon in Revelation 13 are also 2 nations?

And if the 1st beast in Revelation 13 which has 7 heads and 10 horns represents the revived Roman Empire of 10 nations, what does the Dragon represent in Revelation 12?

CWH
11-30-2010, 08:44 PM
Do you agree that the bible interprets the bible? Where in the bible do you find that horns or toes represent nations? Should we assume that the 2 horns in the second beast which looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon in Revelation 13 are also 2 nations?

And if the 1st beast in Revelation 13 which has 7 heads and 10 horns represents the revived Roman Empire of 10 nations, what does the Dragon represent in Revelation 12?

We have discussed that before gilgal in the ten horn thread, or have you forgotten?... and I have also given you my view on the beast which looks like a lamb with the two horns. The horn in the bible suggests king or kingdom/nation:




Hi gilgal,

I figure it is easier to find the identity of the 1st Beast i.e. the Beast in Revelation 13 that rise out from the sea with 10 horns, 7 heads and 10 crowns rather than just focussing on the 10 horns. This is because the clues are more. I have almost solve the issue and I will be coming out with the interpretations soon after I have organize it. Horns on animals are used for defence and attack, Horns in ancient times were used in joyous celebrations. But let's find out what horn means in the bible:

Attack and defence
Deuteronomy 33:17
In majesty he is like a firstborn bull; his horns are the horns of a wild ox. With them he will gore the nations, even those at the ends of the earth. Such are the ten thousands of Ephraim; such are the thousands of Manasseh."

Protector
2 Samuel 22:3
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior— from violent men you save me.

Joyous celebration
Chronicles 15:14
They took an oath to the LORD with loud acclamation, with shouting and with trumpets and horns.


Kingdoms
Daniel 8:8
The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

King/Kings
Daniel 8:21
The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king.

Revelation 17:12
"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

Lord
Luke 1:69
He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David.

Horn therefore means a king or kingdom or lord that attacks, defends and protects and celebrates in victory. The 10 horns of the Beast mean the 10 kings/kingdoms that help the Beast in attacks, defence and protection. They will celebrate together with the Beast in victory and in whatever joyous events.

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1082

My view of the beast which looks like a lamb with 2 horns is China... I do hope I am wrong. Spoke like a dragon means spoke with authority. All this is in the thread on the ten horns. Anyway, this is just speculation.

Many Blessings.

gilgal
12-01-2010, 12:00 AM
We have discussed that before gilgal in the ten horn thread, or have you forgotten?... and I have also given you my view on the beast which looks like a lamb with the two horns. The horn in the bible suggests king or kingdom/nation:



http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1082

My view of the beast which looks like a lamb with 2 horns is China... I do hope I am wrong. Spoke like a dragon means spoke with authority. All this is in the thread on the ten horns. Anyway, this is just speculation.

Many Blessings.
Well if you think about it the dragon in Chapter 12 is giving authority to someone who looks like him, meaning the first beast, and a mouth who talks like him in the second beast.

But I do wonder if the biblewheel pattern shows some thing similar from the past?

Since it's Revelation 13 could it be somehow linked to Habakkuk the 13th prophetic book?

CWH
12-01-2010, 11:10 AM
Well if you think about it the dragon in Chapter 12 is giving authority to someone who looks like him, meaning the first beast, and a mouth who talks like him in the second beast.

But I do wonder if the biblewheel pattern shows some thing similar from the past?

Since it's Revelation 13 could it be somehow linked to Habakkuk the 13th prophetic book?

There are 3 entities, the dragon, the 1st beast and the 2nd beast. Who are these? We can only speculate. I believe future events will reveal their identities.

Now back to topic again. I find it rather strange that the Babylonians and the Persian empires came from the Middle east and the Greek Empire and the Romans Empire came from Europe. All these old empires tend to expand toward the west. After the Eastern Roman Empire collapsed, the Byzantine took over and it also occupied most of the regions of the old empires from the Middle East, Africa to Italy. When the Byzantine Empire collapsed, the Muslim Empire took over and also occupied the regions of the former empires from Arabia, Persia, Africa to Spain. When the Muslim Empire collapsed, the Ottoman took over and occupied the former regions of the old empires and occupied Greece, Africa, Middle East and part of Eastern Europe. When the Ottoman Empire collapsed after World War 1, the Allies and the colonial powers of Europe took over the regions of the former old empires....Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Algeria etc. World War 2 was also fought for control over those regions in Europe and North Africa. The occupation of the whole regions of the former empires of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Roman seems to toggle between two different dominant regions.... the Middle East and Europe. I am afraid such toggle will also continue in the future between the EU and AL (the current stakeholders of the regions of the old empires of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Romans). In fact, if you read Daniel 11, it mentioned the little horn that took over the regions of Egypt, Libya and Sudan/Ethiopia.

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/img/bizans.jpg

http://members.cox.net/smiles17/Images%20for%20Practice%20Test/q37muslimempire.jpg

Ottoman Empire:
http://www.ottoman-traders.com/pix/ottomanmap.jpg

Many Blessings.

gilgal
12-01-2010, 11:19 AM
There are 3 entities, the dragon, the 1st beast and the 2nd beast. Who are these? We can only speculate. I believe future events will reveal their identities.

Now back to topic again. I find it rather strange that the Babylonians and the Persian empires came from the Middle east and the Greek Empire and the Romans Empire came from Europe. All these old empires tend to expand toward the west. After the Eastern Roman Empire collapsed, the Byzantine took over and it also occupied most of the regions of the old empires from the Middle East, Africa to Italy. When the Byzantine Empire collapsed, the Muslim Empire took over and also occupied the regions of the former empires from Arabia, Persia, Africa to Spain. When the Muslim Empire collapsed, the Ottoman took over and occupied the former regions of the old empires and occupied Greece, Africa, Middle East and part of Eastern Europe. When the Ottoman Empire collapsed after World War 1, the Allies and the colonial powers of Europe took over the regions of the former old empires....Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Algeria etc. The occupation of the whole regions of the former empires of Babylon, Persian, Greek and Roman seems to toggle between two different dominant regions.... the Middle East and Europe. I am afraid such toggle will also continue in the future between the EU and AL.

http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/byzantine_map3.gif

http://members.cox.net/smiles17/Images%20for%20Practice%20Test/q37muslimempire.jpg

http://www.ottoman-traders.com/pix/ottomanmap.jpg

Many Blessings.
What about Genghis Khan and the Mongolians? Didn't they influence in the 13th century? Romans 13, 13th prophetic book Habakkuk...I'm not saying it's a direct fulfillment but related to the spoke 13 perhaps?

gilgal
12-01-2010, 11:21 AM
ULAN BATOR, MONGOLIA: US President George W. Bush (C) poses with Mongolians in native garb at Ikh Tenger in Ulan Bator, 21 November 2005. Bush become the first sitting US president to visit the remote former land of 13th century conqueror Genghis Khan. AFP PHOTO/Luke FRAZZA (Photo credit should read LUKE FRAZZA/AFP/Getty Images)
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/56245566.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=FE1CE9934D1C2A8CE55C71E97B660FAF975C5008E28B15F2 66D5E0074728AF67 (http://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/56245566)

CWH
12-01-2010, 11:45 AM
What about Genghis Khan and the Mongolians? Didn't they influence in the 13th century? Romans 13, 13th prophetic book Habakkuk...I'm not saying it's a direct fulfillment but related to the spoke 13 perhaps?

It reminds me of the kings of the East with their armies that will cross over the Euphrates in Revelation 16. Sounds like the armies of China, India and Russia will intervene in Middle East affairs in the future and gather and fight in that region known as Armageddon.

Nostradamus mentioned about the Yellow Hordes coming into ?Europe or ?the Middle East.

Many Blessings.

CWH
12-02-2010, 07:12 AM
What about Genghis Khan and the Mongolians? Didn't they influence in the 13th century? Romans 13, 13th prophetic book Habakkuk...I'm not saying it's a direct fulfillment but related to the spoke 13 perhaps?

The Mongol empire was an interesting exception. Yet as you can see the Mongol empire seemed to move westwards into Europe and Middle East. The focus again seemed to be Europe and Middle East with the new addition of China. It helped to establish the Muslim expansion into India and other parts of the world such as Africa and South East Asia and also established the Ottoman Empire whilst putting an end to the Muslim Empire. This is analogous to the Dispersion of the Jews in AD 70 by the Romans. Here is the dispersion of the some Muslims and spread Islam further beyond the borders of the Muslim Empire. To me it heralds the possible invasion of the kings of the East ("Mongols" or Yellow Hordes as described by Notradamus) into the Middle East in the future. The current stakeholders of the former Mongolian Empire are China, Mongolia and Russia.

Nostradamus Chapter 10 Quatrain 72:

The year 1999, seven months
from the sky will come a great King of Terror.
He will bring back to life the great king of the Mongols.
Before and after war reigns happily.

Mongol Empire:
http://bss.sfsu.edu/behrooz/Map-mongol-empire.jpg

Many Blessings.

gilgal
12-03-2010, 02:22 PM
The Mongol empire was an interesting exception. Yet as you can see the Mongol empire seemed to move westwards into Europe and Middle East. The focus again seemed to be Europe and Middle East with the new addition of China. It helped to establish the Muslim expansion into India and other parts of the world such as Africa and South East Asia and also established the Ottoman Empire whilst putting an end to the Muslim Empire. This is analogous to the Dispersion of the Jews in AD 70 by the Romans. Here is the dispersion of the some Muslims and spread Islam further beyond the borders of the Muslim Empire. To me it heralds the possible invasion of the kings of the East ("Mongols" or Yellow Hordes as described by Notradamus) into the Middle East in the future. The current stakeholders of the former Mongolian Empire are China, Mongolia and Russia.

Nostradamus Chapter 10 Quatrain 72:

The year 1999, seven months
from the sky will come a great King of Terror.
He will bring back to life the great king of the Mongols.
Before and after war reigns happily.

Mongol Empire:
http://bss.sfsu.edu/behrooz/Map-mongol-empire.jpg

Many Blessings.
Yeah but Nostradamus' "prophecies" are vague. But what does the name Mongol mean?

CWH
12-03-2010, 04:49 PM
Yeah but Nostradamus' "prophecies" are vague. But what does the name Mongol mean?

Nobody knows what Mongol means. In Chinese, it probably means the "ancient Mon (tribes)". They are related to the nomadic tribes of Central Asia such as the Khitan and Hun. Anyway, Mongol sounds like Magog. And Magog in Chinese sounds like "Horse country" ("Ma Guo") which is quite appropriate for Mongolia as Mongolia was once famous for its Mongolian horses.

Nostradamus prophecies may be vague but I don't fully reject or ignore them.

Many Blessings.

gilgal
12-03-2010, 10:30 PM
Nobody knows what Mongol means. In Chinese, it probably means the "ancient Mon (tribes)". They are related to the nomadic tribes of Central Asia such as the Khitan and Hun. Anyway, Mongol sounds like Magog. And Magog in Chinese sounds like "Horse country" ("Ma Guo") which is quite appropriate for Mongolia as Mongolia was once famous for its Mongolian horses.

Nostradamus prophecies may be vague but I don't fully reject or ignore them.

Many Blessings.
I wonder if indirectly the Mongols relate to the 4th horseman of Revelation 6.

CWH
12-04-2010, 10:12 AM
I wonder if indirectly the Mongols relate to the 4th horseman of Revelation 6.

I don't see any relation in regards to Mongol and the 4th seal of revelation 6. I believe you see it as the yellow horseman. All the seal of revelation 6 are disasters. The 1st to the 4th seals are man-driven world disasters. The 5th to the 7th seal have no horseman meaning they are non man-driven world disasters.

The interesting thing lies in the colors of the horses which are clues to the disastrous events. White color (the first seal) is the sum of all colors i.e. all colors mixed together will produce white color with the exception of black.... Red (2nd seal), yellow, green(4th seal) etc. which means to suggest that the disasters of the 1st seal directly leads to the disasters of the 2nd seal and the 4th seal. The disasters of the 3rd seal(black seal) seems indirectly or not directly resulted from the 1st seal. The reason is that Black (scientifically speaking) is not a color but the absence of color.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/AdditiveColor.svg/220px-thumb.jpg

The way I see it is this (speculation), the 1st seal which was Christianity or false religion spread by false christs as a result of wars, colonisation, false evangelisms lead (social discontentions) to the rise of communism (2nd seal) which leads to a ?World War? (4th seal). The 3rd seal (BLACK HORSE)seems to be a man-made disaster not related to the 1st seal but to man's greed which forced a mega inflation of world's food prices by hoarding food thus worsening a world famine which was already caused by a ?wheat fungus and droughts. BTW Black color is the opposite of white color.


Many Blessings

gilgal
12-04-2010, 02:33 PM
Nobody knows what Mongol means. In Chinese, it probably means the "ancient Mon (tribes)". They are related to the nomadic tribes of Central Asia such as the Khitan and Hun. Anyway, Mongol sounds like Magog. And Magog in Chinese sounds like "Horse country" ("Ma Guo") which is quite appropriate for Mongolia as Mongolia was once famous for its Mongolian horses.

Nostradamus prophecies may be vague but I don't fully reject or ignore them.

Many Blessings.

Forget about Nostradamus. It's enough that we don't understand the bible in its' fullness. Why take on some prophecies that's going to confuse us further?

CWH
12-06-2010, 02:21 PM
Forget about Nostradamus. It's enough that we don't understand the bible in its' fullness. Why take on some prophecies that's going to confuse us further?

It's up to one to believe in Nostradamus. Nostradamus at times did referred to the Bible.

Talking about Gog and Magog, Marco Polo seemed to refer them as Tartars and Mongols. There is in fact an ancient map that shows where Gog and Magog is:

http://www.geographicus.com/blog/rare-and-antique-maps/gog-and-magog-in-antique-maps/

Marco Polo, in his Travels, is possibly the first European literary figure to identify Gog and Magog with the Tartars. Polo, claimed to have lived in China from 1271 to 1298, where he became an important functionary in the court of Kublai Khan. Polo worked for years as an emissary of the Great Khan and traveled extensively throughout the vast empire. Much of the information about Asia appearing on early maps of the continent, including the Vinland Map and the Waldseemuler Map, can be directly linked to Polo’s narratives. Polo associates Gog and Magog with the lands of Tenduk, a province to the north of China ruled by Prester John. In Polo’s narrative Gog is translated as Ung and Magog is the home of the Tartars. Ibn Battuta, the great 14th century Moroccan traveler, referring to the tale of Dhul Qarnayan, supports Polo by himself connecting the Great Wall of China with the gates setup to restrain Gog and Magog, “Between it [the city] and the rampart of Yajuj and Majuj is sixty days’ travel.”

http://www.geographicus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Asia-rossi-1697-M.jpg

There are evidence suggesting God and Magog to be a vast area above the Caspian sea to northern China.

Many Blessings.

CWH
12-17-2010, 08:53 PM
Whilst I did mentioned the toggle of conquest between the Christian powers of Europe and the powers of the Muslim Middle East of the former lands of the Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman Empires and such a toggle seems to continue to this day with the US and Europe's/EU involvement in the Israeli-Arab wars, iraq, Afghanistan wars; there seems to be a toggle also between the spread of Christianity and Islam. Christianity started to spread to the Europe during the apostles time and during the Dispersion of the Jews in AD 70 and then spread to the West through the conquests of lands by the Roman empires and subsequent European empires and also through colonizations such as the Americas.

On the other hand, it is interesting to note that Islam also spread through conquest of lands in Africa and the Middle East and also the former lands of the Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman Empires, but it tends to move East. The Muslim Empire were weakened by various wars and eventually fall since the attacks from the Mongolians in the 13th century and that caused a dispersion of the Muslims which resulted in the spread of Islam far and wide to the south i.e. Africa and to the East, that is Asia thus resulted in the formation of Muslim countries such as Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkistan etc. Thus we can see today, the 2 main remnants of the toggle of land and religion since ancient times that originates from the Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman Empires era to this day..... And I am afraid it will continue to do so which may results in a major war one day.

Thus we can see the that the collapsed of the Roman empire resulted in the formations of many Christian countries in the West and North (Europe, Russia, Scandinavia and North/South/Central Americas) while the collapsed of the Muslim empire resulted in the formation of many Muslim countries in the East and South (Middle East, Africa, South Asia, South East Asia). Thus the legacies of the Great Roman Empire and the Muslim Empire survived to this day by the existence of these countries; both ancient empires have not really completely collapsed and are currently represented by the EU and the AL.

Spread of Islam:

http://www.terroristplanet.com/IslamMap.jpg

Religions of the world:

http://www.tamiloviam.com/img/world-religion-map.jpg

Many Blessings.

CWH
01-20-2011, 01:51 AM
Genesis 37:9
Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

It doesn't seems right that the parents and 11 brothers of Joseph will pay homage to Joseph. It goes against Jewish custom for the elders to pay homage to the youngest not to say the parents. I have an alternative explanation:

We all know that sun, moon and stars represent powers. The moon represenrts the Muslim powers (Babylonian, Persian, Muslims, Ottoman, AL) and the 11 brothers of Joseph represent the Jewish people, the 11 tribes + 1 tribe that of Joseph (may also represent the Gentile powers). The sun represents the European powers (Roman Empire, Byzantine, Holy Roman Empire, Colonial powers, EU)..... "The sun never set was used for the British and Spanish empires and other European colonial powers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_empire_on_which_the_sun_never_sets.

Then what the verses in Genesis 37:9 means is that the Christian powers and Muslim powers and all the Jewish people (repreasenting also the Gentile Nations) will one day pay homage to Joseph's seed, Jesus who will rule the world. Looking at the world map of religions in my previous post, the Christians powers, Muslim powers and Jewish people (?gentile nations) represent practically the whole world thus meaning that the whole world will pay homage to Jesus one day.

Note also the Bible number for 11:

Eleven : 11 - Christian Numerology meaning deals with imperfection, disorganization or disorder.


Many Blessings.

gilgal
01-20-2011, 02:33 AM
Genesis 37:9
Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. 'Listen,' he said, 'I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.'

It doesn't seems right that the parents and 11 brothers of Joseph will pay homage to Joseph. It goes against Jewish custom for the elders to pay homage to the youngest not to say the parents. I have an alternative explanation:

We all know that sun, moon and stars represent powers. The moon represenrts the Muslim powers (Babylonian, Persian, Muslims, Ottoman, AL) and the 11 brothers of Joseph represent the Jewish people, the 11 tribes + 1 tribe that of Joseph (may also represent the Gentile powers). The sun represents the European powers (Roman Empire, Byzantine, Holy Roman Empire, Colonial powers, EU)..... "The sun never set was used for the British and Spanish empires and other European colonial powers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_empire_on_which_the_sun_never_sets.

Then what the verses in Genesis 37:9 means is that the Christian powers and Muslim powers and all the Jewish people (repreasenting also the Gentile Nations) will one day pay homage to Joseph's seed, Jesus who will rule the world. Looking at the world map of religions in my previous post, the Christians powers, Muslim powers and Jewish people (?gentile nations) represent practically the whole world thus meaning that the whole world will pay homage to Jesus one day.

Note also the Bible number for 11:

Eleven : 11 - Christian Numerology meaning deals with imperfection, disorganization or disorder.


Many Blessings.
You don't make any sense at all. I'm unsubscribing all your threads. It's a waist of time.

CWH
01-20-2011, 04:01 AM
You don't make any sense at all. I'm unsubscribing all your threads. It's a waist of time.

It may not make sense to you but does not mean it will not make sense to others. Where is the spirit of Bible research? Is the spirit of Bible research means accepting one's own view and rejecting all others?

I don't unsubscribe your threads because it does not make sense to me....I shelved it. It may come useful one day. How can we be so sure we are right and others are wrong? ...only God knows.

I do know the traditional views of Genesis 37:9....where in the Bible is the sun to mean Father and the moon to mean Mother? Besides, Jewish tradition will not accept the parents to bow to their own children.....something's wrong somewhere....

BTW, Jerusalem is a sacred place for the 3 religions, Christianity represented by the Sun(Jesus), Islam represented by the Moon (Crescent Moon) and Judiasm represented by the stars (the sons/descendants of Abraham were also called the stars of heaven in Genesis 26:24). Note also the star of David is the emblem for the flag for the Jewish state of Israel. One day, all these religions will bow to Christ. Joseph is said to be a representative of Christ:

http://homeschoolblogger.com/gracelettbiblestudy/783188/


These are my observations of some of the parallels between Joseph and the life of Christ. There may be others I’m missing.

Joseph was despised by his brothers. (Gen. 37:4) Jesus was despised by those of His own household. (Mark 3:21)

Joseph’s brothers sought to kill him. (Gen. 37:18) The Jews (Jesus’ own people) sought to kill Jesus. (John 5:16,18)

Joseph’s tunic was significant in the story of his "death." (Gen. 37:23,31-33) Jesus’ tunic is mentioned at his death. (John 19:23)

Joseph’s father received him back from a presumed death. (Gen. 45:26,28) Jesus rose from the dead. (Matt. 28:5-7)

Joseph was falsely accused and wrongly punished. (Gen. 39:19,20) Jesus was falsely accused and wrongly punished. (Matt. 26:60,61; 27:19-26)

Joseph’s intervention saved many from death by the famine. (Gen. 41:54-57) Jesus saved many from spiritual death. (John 3:16)

Joseph was not recognized by his brothers. (Gen. 42:8) Jesus was not recognized by His own people. (John 1:10, 11)

Though once a slave, Joseph was elevated to a high position over all Egypt. (Gen. 41:40) Jesus humbled Himself as a bondservant and then was exalted as King. (Phil. 2:5-9)

Many Blessings.

Brother Les
05-25-2011, 01:27 PM
The interesting thing lies in the colors of the horses which are clues to the disastrous events. White color (the first seal) is the sum of all colors i.e. all colors mixed together will produce white color with the exception of black.... Red (2nd seal), yellow, green(4th seal) etc. which means to suggest that the disasters of the 1st seal directly leads to the disasters of the 2nd seal and the 4th seal. The disasters of the 3rd seal(black seal) seems indirectly or not directly resulted from the 1st seal. The reason is that Black (scientifically speaking) is not a color but the absence of color.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/AdditiveColor.svg/220px-thumb.jpg

Many Blessings



Where is the world are you coming up with such nonsence.... it is white that is the absence of color. your color chart is even mislabeled. You have R (red), G (green), B (blue). The primary colors are what is in the inside ring, next to the absents of color, white. those Primary colors are Yellow, Cyan, Magenta. The mixing of Yellow and Cyan creates Green. The mixing of Cyan and Magenta creats Purple. The mixing of Yellow and Magenta creats Orange. Black is a color in its' own right by the absorbtion of all color.

CWH
05-25-2011, 04:51 PM
Where is the world are you coming up with such nonsence.... it is white that is the absence of color. your color chart is even mislabeled. You have R (red), G (green), B (blue). The primary colors are what is in the inside ring, next to the absents of color, white. those Primary colors are Yellow, Cyan, Magenta. The mixing of Yellow and Cyan creates Green. The mixing of Cyan and Magenta creats Purple. The mixing of Yellow and Magenta creats Orange. Black is a color in its' own right by the absorbtion of all color.

Sorry for not elaborating on the colors. The picture was downloaded from the internet on primary colors (RGB) which combined forms White color. White color reflects all light and black color absorbs all light. White color is the color created by the combination of the primary colors of Red, Green and Blue in suitable proportions. I was surprised that the horses in Revelation 6 mentioned all those colors of white, red, black, green/yellow except blue, not sure why but I do know that green is a mixture of yellow and blue, yellow is a mixture of red and green.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/RGB_illumination.jpg

Please see wiki on Black color:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black

Black can be defined as the visual impression experienced when no visible light reaches the eye. (This makes a contrast with whiteness, the impression of any combination of colors of light that equally stimulates all three types of color-sensitive visual receptors.)
Pigments that absorb light rather than reflect it back to the eye "look black". A black pigment can, however, result from a combination of several pigments that collectively absorb all colors. If appropriate proportions of three primary pigments are mixed, the result reflects so little light as to be called "black".
This provides two superficially opposite but actually complementary descriptions of black. Black is the lack of all colors of light, or an exhaustive combination of multiple colors of pigment.
In physics, a black body is a perfect absorber of light,


See wiki on White color:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White

White light is the effect of combining the visible colors of light in suitable proportions (the same present in solar light).
Since the impression of white is obtained by three summations of light intensity across the visible spectrum, the number of combinations of light wavelengths that produce the sensation of white is practically infinite. There are a number of different white light sources such as the midday sun, incandescent lamps, fluorescent lamps and white LEDs; due to the phenomenon of metamerism, such sources can appear similar whilst having quite different spectra. The impression of white light can also be created by mixing appropriate intensities of the primary colors of light, red, green and blue (RGB), a process called additive mixing, as seen in many display technologies.


See wiki on Red color:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red

Red is any of a number of similar colors evoked by light consisting predominantly of the longest wavelengths of light discernible by the human eye, in the wavelength range of roughly 630–740 nm.[2]


See wiki on Green color:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green

Green is a color, the perception of which is evoked by light having a spectrum dominated by energy with a wavelength of roughly 520–570 nanometres. In the subtractive color system, it is not a primary color, but is created out of a mixture of yellow and blue, or yellow and cyan; it is considered one of the additive primary colors.


See wiki on Yellow color:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow

Yellow is the color evoked by light that stimulates both the L and M (long and medium wavelength) cone cells of the retina about equally, with no significant stimulation of the S (short-wavelength) cone cells.[2] Light with a wavelength of 570–580 nm is yellow, as is light with a suitable mixture of red and green.

Many Blessings.

Brother Les
05-26-2011, 06:41 AM
Sorry for not elaborating on the colors. The picture was downloaded from the internet on primary colors (RGB) which combined forms White color. White color reflects all light and black color absorbs all light. White color is the color created by the combination of the primary colors of Red, Green and Blue in suitable proportions. I was surprised that the horses in Revelation 6 mentioned all those colors of white, red, black, green/yellow except blue, not sure why but I do know that green is a mixture of yellow and blue, yellow is a mixture of red and green.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/RGB_illumination.jpg

Please see wiki on Black color:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black

Black can be defined as the visual impression experienced when no visible light reaches the eye. (This makes a contrast with whiteness, the impression of any combination of colors of light that equally stimulates all three types of color-sensitive visual receptors.)
Pigments that absorb light rather than reflect it back to the eye "look black". A black pigment can, however, result from a combination of several pigments that collectively absorb all colors. If appropriate proportions of three primary pigments are mixed, the result reflects so little light as to be called "black".
This provides two superficially opposite but actually complementary descriptions of black. Black is the lack of all colors of light, or an exhaustive combination of multiple colors of pigment.
In physics, a black body is a perfect absorber of light,


See wiki on White color:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White

White light is the effect of combining the visible colors of light in suitable proportions (the same present in solar light).
Since the impression of white is obtained by three summations of light intensity across the visible spectrum, the number of combinations of light wavelengths that produce the sensation of white is practically infinite. There are a number of different white light sources such as the midday sun, incandescent lamps, fluorescent lamps and white LEDs; due to the phenomenon of metamerism, such sources can appear similar whilst having quite different spectra. The impression of white light can also be created by mixing appropriate intensities of the primary colors of light, red, green and blue (RGB), a process called additive mixing, as seen in many display technologies.


See wiki on Red color:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red

Red is any of a number of similar colors evoked by light consisting predominantly of the longest wavelengths of light discernible by the human eye, in the wavelength range of roughly 630–740 nm.[2]


See wiki on Green color:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green

Green is a color, the perception of which is evoked by light having a spectrum dominated by energy with a wavelength of roughly 520–570 nanometres. In the subtractive color system, it is not a primary color, but is created out of a mixture of yellow and blue, or yellow and cyan; it is considered one of the additive primary colors.


See wiki on Yellow color:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow

Yellow is the color evoked by light that stimulates both the L and M (long and medium wavelength) cone cells of the retina about equally, with no significant stimulation of the S (short-wavelength) cone cells.[2] Light with a wavelength of 570–580 nm is yellow, as is light with a suitable mixture of red and green.

Many Blessings.




CWH? Are you not smart enough to know that what you have posted off the internet, makes everything that you have said a lie......?

It seems that you do not understand very well that Red and Green are NOT Primary colors, they are Additive Primary Colors.

Even what you have posted off the internet, has proven you wrong on what you have said about White and Black.....

You said:


The reason is that Black (scientifically speaking) is not a color but the absence of color.

Website said:A black pigment can, however, result from a combination of several pigments that collectively absorb all colors. If appropriate proportions of three primary pigments are mixed, the result reflects so little light as to be called "black".

You said:

White color (the first seal) is the sum of all colors i.e. all colors mixed together will produce white color with the exception of black..

website said:White is a color, the perception of which is evoked by light that stimulates all three types of color sensitive cone cells in the human eye in nearly equal amounts and with high brightness compared to the surroundings. A white visual stimulation will be void of hue and grayness.[1]White light can be generated in many ways. The sun is such a source, electric incandescence is another. Modern light sources are fluorescent lamps and light-emitting diodes. An object whose surface reflects back most of the light it receives and does not alter its color will appear white, unless it has very high specular reflection.

Since white is the extreme end of the visual spectrum (in terms of both hue and shade), and since white objects - such as clouds, snow and flowers - appear often in nature, it has frequent symbolism. Human culture has many references to white, often related to purity and cleanness, whilst the high contrast between white and black is often used to represent opposite extremes.

I should not be suprised as your religious view points hold the same pattern.

CWH
09-18-2011, 05:28 PM
I have found an interesting website that relates to this topic on how the statue in Daniel relates to the present history. It s an interesting video and the whole video ("Know Your Enemy") which is very long explains many hidden agendas in understanding how Satan is shaping current world events. This particular video (part 61) describes how Rome and RC is involved in Daniel's statue and in the history of the EU. I believe Rome will play a much major role in the coming affairs of the EU including being its future capital:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blm1ATcU_aA


God protects us from the Enemy, Amen. :pray:

gilgal
11-15-2011, 09:19 PM
Just as Abram is Abram or Father is Exalted so are the believers in Rome:

Romans 1
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


And so is the Pope by the way the exalted father from Rome.

But when he wrote his epistle Paul hadn't visited Rome yet and had heard the faith of the Romans and wanted to go there to minister unto them as well. So it wasn't founded by the apostles. I doubt.

David M
01-21-2012, 04:09 PM
I have recently been looking at the Restored Churh of God materilal presented by David C Plack. There is a sister site called The World to Come.

You will find much material dealing with prophecy. Unfortunately, the Restored Church of God has one or two false doctrines but I would agree a lot with events which have and are to take place leading up to the return of Christ and the Kingdom of God on earth.

Regarding Rome and the nations I suggest you start with the first video of a four-part series dealing with the mid-east.

http://worldtocome.org/player.html#!Item=559783,1


I hope you find the videos helpful.

Richard Amiel McGough
01-21-2012, 04:51 PM
I have recently been looking at the Restored Churh of God materilal presented by David C Plack. There is a sister site called The World to Come.

You will find much material dealing with prophecy. Unfortunately, the Restored Church of God has one or two false doctrines but I would agree a lot with events which have and are to take place leading up to the return of Christ and the Kingdom of God on earth.

Regarding Rome and the nations I suggest you start with the first video of a four-part series dealing with the mid-east.

http://worldtocome.org/player.html#!Item=559783,1 (http://worldtocome.org/player.html#%21Item=559783,1)


I hope you find the videos helpful.
Hi David,

Are you a member of the "Restored Church of God?" Were you a member of Herbert Armstrong's "Worldwide Church of God?" To me, both those organizations look like cults led by deluded self-aggrandizing cult leaders. This page (http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/pack.htm) says that David C. Plack has declared himself to be the "Apostle of the 21st Century." Look at how he puffs himself up:



Why did I pastor 19 churches? I don't know if any man pastored 19 churches--I may have baptized more people in the last century than any man in the ministry of God--over 600. Was there anybody who baptized more than that? I've raised up literally scores of churches in the splinters.


Let's look at the matter of miraculous power...remember, an apostle carries miraculous power. When I was as young as 27 years old, ministers used to call me when they dealt with demons because they knew I had experience in it. Casting out demons--apostles do that. There are healings here. They flow from the presence of apostolic authority. An apostle is inseparable from miraculous power. [Talks about these miracles not occurring in the splinters] We've had people healed of every conceivable thing--instant healings--dramatic!
[lists all kinds of serious and terminal illnesses, hurricanes changing course, and God sending $10,000 to him after praying for it]


I've been used to write more literature for the church and the world, including to two eras of the church, than any man that's ever done it before.



I find it rather amusing that folks in other threads have been talking about how "miraculous healings" prove that God answers prayers. This quote shows yet again that anyone can claim all the "healings" they want. No one ever verifies anything.

Sorry to splash your face with such cold water. But hey! Maybe it will wake you up. You really should not be following religious con-men, and I would be derelict in my duty if I did not warn you of what you are getting into.

All the best,

Richard

gilgal
01-23-2012, 07:18 PM
Hi David,

Are you a member of the "Restored Church of God?" Were you a member of Herbert Armstrong's "Worldwide Church of God?" To me, both those organizations look like cults led by deluded self-aggrandizing cult leaders. This page (http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/pack.htm) says that David C. Plack has declared himself to be the "Apostle of the 21st Century." Look at how he puffs himself up:



I find it rather amusing that folks in other threads have been talking about how "miraculous healings" prove that God answers prayers. This quote shows yet again that anyone can claim all the "healings" they want. No one ever verifies anything.

Sorry to splash your face with such cold water. But hey! Maybe it will wake you up. You really should not be following religious con-men, and I would be derelict in my duty if I did not warn you of what you are getting into.

All the best,

Richard
Deuteronomy 13:1 KJV - If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deuteronomy 13:2 KJV - And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deuteronomy 13:3 KJV - Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:4 KJV - Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Deuteronomy 13:5 KJV - And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Mark 13:22 KJV - For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
Revelation 13:13 KJV - And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,