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andersbranderud
09-30-2008, 04:02 AM
This post we about the historical Jesus. Who was he? Did he or his followers create a new religion?
According to historical scholarship [sources: see at the bottom of this post] he practised what corresponds to today’s Orthodox Judaism all his life. His followers were called Netzarim – that is Hebrew [it means offshoot (of a olive tree)] and is a name in the Jewish Bible that is used for Messiah.

During the first century those who practised Judaism were very devoted their religion. Just like King David and all other Jews throughout history they practised Torah (Instruction) – the Instructions of the Creator – with joy! The most prominent university professors in this field Prof. Elisha Qimron , author of the most authoritative treatise on 4Q MMT, demonstrates that all three of the major sects of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah.

Louis Feldman ('The Omnipresence of the G*od-Fearers,' Biblical Archaeology Review, 1986.09-10, p. 45, 58ff) observes: 'the Jews were apparently extraordinarily successful in winning converts'

Year 7 B.C.E Ribi Yehoshua were born in Bethlehem. His father name was Yoseif and his mothers name was Miriam. His parents were practising Jews.

According to world-recognized authorities in this area Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee (a Torah-practising Jewish group - who according to 4Q MMT practised both written and oral Torah). As the earliest church historians, most eminent modern university historians, our web site (www.netzarim.co.il) and our Khavruta (Distance Learning) texts confirm, the original teachings of Ribi Yehoshua were not only accepted by most of the Pharisaic Jewish community, he had hoards of Jewish students.

He took care of sick and made it popular to pray in what corresponds to today’s Orthodox synagogues. The genealogically non-priest, Hellenist 'Wicked Priest' Temple-Sadducees felt that their power was threaten by Ribi Yehoshua. They decided to get him crucified by the Romans. The Romans convicted and crucified Ribi Yehoshua year 30 C.E.

Ribi Yehoshua’s followers Netzarim were expelled from Jerusalem 135 C.E: together with all other Jews. The first Christian bishop Markos replaced the fifteenth leader of Netzarim. This Christian bishop didn’t have permission to do this. What the Paul the apostate and later the founder of Christianity did was to take some concepts that Ribi Yehoshua had taught; they distorted the concepts and included them in the religion which they practiced – Hellenism – the religion of the Greeks. (Sources: See Ecclesiastical History (EH IV.v.1-4; EH V.xii.1) )

Anyone educated in this field knows that the only sect of Judaism that had rabbis was the Pharisee and even the Christian NT described him as a rabbi. Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, Charlesworth; all world-recognized authorities in this area leave no doubt that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee, of the school of Hileil - who was also Pharisee. There is no serious dispute about that among scholars in the field. Ribi Yehoshua taught in "synagogues"; which were a strictly Pharisee institution.

Following the teachings of the Judaic Mâshiakh (Messiah) Ribi Yehoshua – that is doing one’s utmost to practice the 613 commandments of Torah - also brings the inner joy, purpose and happiness of working intimately with him to bring about, and participate in, the Messianic era, enjoying a higher level of communion with ha-Sheim - the Creator - as party to Yirmeyâhu's (Jeremiah’s) New Covenant.

If you want to learn about the Historical Ribi Yehoshua, whom Orthodox Jews can live with (witness the Netzarim Jews in Raanana, Israel, members in good standing in an Orthodox synagogue), you must start with books like How Jesus Became Christian by Prof. Barrie Wilson (most bookstores) and Who Are The Netzarim? (publ. www.schuellerhouse.com) by Israeli Orthodox Jew, Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben-David.

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il) whom is followers of Ribi Yehoshua – the Messiah – in Orthodox Judaism

Brother Les
09-30-2008, 07:14 AM
No, Jesus Christ did not 'create' a 'new' religion. Neither did the Apostle Paul. The relationship of Gods Elect People is always tied together as a rope through time, from the first Adam unto the second Adam, unto today. The Apostle Paul understood this transitioning of the old Heaven and Earth to the New Creation of the New Heaven and Earth. God is with us.


Deu 5:1 ¶ And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.


Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.


Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.


Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,


Deu 5:5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount,) saying,


Deu 5:6 ¶ I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.


Deu 5:7 ¶ Thou shalt have none other gods before me.


The Temple Worship Cultus was always in interim Covenant between God and Man. God declaring that it will pass away.

Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.




Notice that God will make this New Covenant with 'The House of Israel' and 'The House of Juduah'.... 'Israel' (Ephraim) Had (and still has) The Birthrigh.... But God gave 'Israel' (Ephraim) a Bill of Divorce 'From' 'The Mosaic Covenant Marriage...' 'Israel' (Ephraim) could never again Fellowship with God under any of The Mosaic Covenantal terms.... But The Prophets declared that 'both Houses' of 'Israel' (Samaria, Ephraim) and Judauh. (Who saw what God did for Samaria's Harlotry, played up 'her' Harlotry Even worse).

'Judaism' has no connection in the first century (or now) to the Northern House of Israel Kingdom. But what does the First Century 'Hebrew' writer have to say...?



Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:



The "Hebrew" writer is quoting Jeremiah the Prophet. The time of fulfillment of Jeremiah was with the first century generation. The writer goes on to say...

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.


What was decaying and waxing old? The Mosaic Covenant Marriage was over. Only the Judgments of Blessings and Curses of 'that Marriage' remained to be carried out in AD70.




Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.



Jesus Christ (or Paul) did not 'create' a new 'religion', Jesus was the mediator of the New Marriage Covenant between God and His Election.



But what does the 'Hebrew' writer also say about 'The Tabernacle'?



Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:



'The Way' into the Holy of Holies (Presence of God) was not to be made manifest as long as the first tabernacle was standing. As long as the Temple Cultus building was standing, then the Mosaic covenant marriage had 'standing'. When the Tabernacle came down then the Judgments of that Covenant were complete. We do not look to Judea or Jerusalem or 'The Temple' for we of the Election have a better Tabernacle and a better High Priest.



Hbr 9:11 ¶ But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;


Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].


Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:


Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Hbr 9:16 ¶ For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.


Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


Hbr 9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.


Hbr 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,


Hbr 9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.


Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.


Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


Hbr 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;


Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.



From your post you seem to advocate Messianic Judaism? That Sect of The Way ended in AD70 when The Temple Complex was destroyed. There is now neither Jew (Juduah) nor Greek (Ephraim, Goem, Getile) in Jesus Christ, only Christian.


Blessings
Brother Les

Brother Les
09-30-2008, 09:38 AM
...all three of the major sects of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah.


I am interested to know what you consider to be the 'major' sects of the religion that many Jews practiced in the first century and do you have a list and beliefs of the other 23 or so, 'minor' sects?



Louis Feldman (”The Omnipresence of the G*od-Fearers,” Biblical Archaeology Review, 1986.09-10, p. 45, 58ff) observes: “the Jews were apparently extraordinarily successful in winning converts”


Since I have never read "...God Fearers", I am not very sure of the context of this statement? (...Jews ....successful at winning converts...) Are these 'converts' to 'The Law' of Moses.... or 'converts' to 'The Law' of Moses + (plus) Jesus Christ as the 'Messiah' - to Bring redemption and resurrection-? Many 'converts' to 'The Sect of The Way' went through the process of circumcision and learning Torah. But Paul (being the Disciple to the 'Nations', Getiles, Goem, Ephraim) understood that there was no reason to put 'The Gentiles' under a Law that 'they' had never been under and that was 'waxing old and fading away. This 'Law', that even 'our Fathers could not bare or keep' (paraphrase). Torah was good to learn, But many reasons for The Sinai Marriage Covenant were (at the time of the first century) ending, why 'keep' doing Temple rituals when they were about to end forever?


According to world-recognized authorities in this area Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee (a Torah-practising Jewish group - who according to 4Q MMT practised both written and oral Torah).

From what I understand, the Phariseian numbers at this time stood around 6,000. That is not a large 'group' when comparing 'all The People'.... It would seen that many of 'The People' were of no 'sect' what so ever. If you say that Jesus Christ was a Pharisee, then it would seem that He and Saul (ApostalPaul) would have moved in the same circles and have known each other. Doing/knowing the written and 'oral' Torah does not 'make you' a Pharisee.


The genealogically non-priest, Hellenist “Wicked Priest” Temple-Sadducees felt that their power was threaten by Ribi Yehoshua. They decided to get him crucified by the Romans.

God must have thought that this 'Wicked Priest' was legit, because only 'The High Priest' could pick 'The Perfect' Sacrifice for 'The People'.....


The Romans convicted and crucified Ribi Yehoshua year 30 C.E.

Mat 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.


Mat 27:21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.


Mat 27:22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? [They] all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

Mat 27:23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.


Mat 27:24 When "]Pilate[/B] saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it].

Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood on us, and on our children.


: I will Note: That the 'so-called' 'curse' upon the "Jewish People" ('All Israel' for that matter) ended at the consemation of the Mosaic Age in AD70. There is no 'national' curse past that date. 'We' (after that date) are now 'Judged' as individuals and not as group. :

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom [B]ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?


Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.






Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Act 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;


Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.


Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.


Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


King Harod tried kill The Messiah ( Messianic Covenant), just as Pharoh tried to kill Moses (Mosaic Covenant...), Moses was the Type and Shadow and Jesus Christ was the Anti-type and Real. It was Gods Will, That the 'wife' (Jeusalem) would murder 'her' husband (Jesus Christ/God)







Blessings
Brother Les

Brother Les
10-02-2008, 05:47 AM
I was hoping to have more diolog with Anders Branderud about his beliefs, this looked like a very interesting suject .




Brother Les

andersbranderud
10-04-2008, 07:06 AM
"Brother Les",

To answer your post:
The earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius further documented (EH III.xxvii.4-6) that the original Netzarim accepted only the Jewish Tana"kh as Bible and only The Netzarim ("their own") Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) as an authentic account of the life and teachings of Ribi Yәhoshua, never accepting the the 2nd-4th century, heavily gentile-redacted (Greek), NT.

Ribi Yehoshua said:

"Don't think that I came to uproot the Torah or the Neviim [prophets], but rather I came to reconcile them with the Oral Law of emet (truth). Should the heavens and ha-aretz (the land, particularly referring to Israel) exchange places, still, not even one ' (yod) nor one ` (qeren) of the Oral Law of Mosheh shall so much as exchange places; until it shall become that it is all being fully ratified and performed non-selectively. For whoever deletes one Oral Law from the Torah, or shall teach others such, by those in the Realm of the heavens he shall be called "deleted." Both he who preserves and he who teaches them shall be called Ribi in the Realm of the heavens. For I tell you that unless your Tzedaqah (righteousness) is over and above that of the Sophrim (Torah Scribes), and of the [probably 'Herodian'] Rabbinic-Perushim (corrupted to "Pharisees"), there is no way you will enter into the Realm of the heavens! “
Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu 5:17-20.

and

“Take heed against false Neviim who come to you in wool like sheep, but inside they are wolves who extort. You shall recognize them by their works. Do men pick grapes from a stinging-nettle? Or figs from a thistle? So, every green tree is unable to produce evil fruit, and a dried-up tree is unable to produce good fruit."”

Rib′ i Yeho•shu′ a taught that one can only learn how to keep Tor•âh′ by learning to keep Tor•âh′ as the Pәrush•im (Pharisees) teach:
"Then [Rib′ i] Yeho•shu′ a spoke to the Qehil•ot′ and to his tal•mid•im′ [apprentice-students] saying, ''The Sophәr•im′ and those of the Rabbinic-Pәrush•im′ [who advocate that Halâkhâh′ must be exclusively oral] sit upon the bench [i.e., the Beit-Din [Jewish Religious court]] of Mosh•ëh′ [Moses] . So now, keep sho•meir′ and do concerning everything—as much as they shall tell you! Just don't imitate their Ma•as•ëh′ because they say but they don't do." (The Nәtzârim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityâhu (NHM) (23.1-3).

For words that you don’t understand; see our website (below) ; the link to Glossaries at the first page.

Ribi Yehoshua warned for false prophets who don’t produce good fruit = defined as don’t practise the commandments in Torah according to Halakhah (oral Torah). See Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13:1-6.

Now you are confronted with the very words of historical Ribi Yehoshua [in the above quotes]. You can’t rebel and reject the very words he claims to follow. If you don’t follow Ribi Yehoshuas Torah-teachings, than you don’t follow Ribi Yehoshua.

So why not start following Ribi Yehoshua by practising Torah including Halakhah non-selectively? To follow him by practising the commandments in Torah including helping the needy gives true meaning of life!!

I also recommend you to read: “Who are the Netzarim”
www.netזarim.co.il ; Israel Mall (left menu); Netzarim (bottom menu)

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il) who are followers of Ribi Yehoshua – the Messiah – in Orthodox Judaism

Richard Amiel McGough
10-04-2008, 08:24 AM
This post we about the historical Jesus. Who was he? Did he or his followers create a new religion?
According to historical scholarship [sources: see at the bottom of this post] he practised what corresponds to today’s Orthodox Judaism all his life. His followers were called Netzarim – that is Hebrew [it means offshoot (of a olive tree)] and is a name in the Jewish Bible that is used for Messiah.

Hello Anders,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

I am very interested in discussing these things with you, but I see we have very different foundations so the first thing we need to do is clarify the authority upon which we base our claims. I will be basing my claims on the historical records and the traditional Christian Bible (original Hebrew Tanach and original Greek New Testament).

It appears that you reject the entire Greek New Testament and base all your knowledge of Jesus on a single late Aramaic manuscript of Matthew's Gospel which has been "reconstructed" to fit the understandings of your group.

So before we dive into the discussion of what it all means, I think it very important for us both to understand what we believe to be the genuine Scritpures and why since everything else will be based on those Scriptures.

I look forward to discussing this with you.

Richard

andersbranderud
10-04-2008, 08:44 AM
Hello!
Thanks for your welcome and nice to meet you!

Regarding our NHM: What you wrote is not correct.
Read more here: www.netarim.co.il ; Israel Mall (left menu); Nezarim (bottom menu);The Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu

It is impossible to have a discussion if we don’t use a document which both of us accept.
I don’t accept false premises as 'NT is true'. Be sure that all the premises you use are true. NT is not true until it is proven it doesn’t contradict Torah; that it doesn’t contain any anti-Torah doctrine.

It is impossible to read Tan’’kh – the Jewish Bible – without knowing Hebrew. The current Christian translators are a proof of this. The English is always irrelevant — at best a translation that tries, with varying degrees of success, to convey a Hebrew idea with a minimum of distortion. (The same is true of Greek, by the way. Greek-to-English doubles the distortion that is introduced into the original Hebrew idea.)

We both agree that Tan’’kh is true therefore that is a foundation for a discussion.

Another foundation is the historical research by Scholars in leading universities like Barrie Wilson: www.barriewilson.com

For you to prove that Christianity is correct and that it has displaced Judaism, then you need to show where in Tana''kh it says that the Mâshiakh (Messiah) shall come and replace the Torah. You also need to show where in Tana''kh it is written about the trinity and that the Mâshiakh shall be an g*od. And there is much else you need to show also. The NT, as I said, is invalid to use for your argumentation until you prove it's validity from Tana''kh

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il) whom are followers of Ribi Yehoshua – the Messiah – in Orthodox Judaism

Richard Amiel McGough
10-04-2008, 09:27 AM
Hello!
Thanks for your welcome and nice to meet you!

It is good to be chatting. :yo:



Regarding our NHM: What you wrote is not correct.
Read more here: www.netarim.co.il (http://www.netarim.co.il) ; Israel Mall (left menu); Nezarim (bottom menu);The Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu

I certainly will read more ... but what exactly did I write that was incorrect? (It would help if you pointed out my errors).



It is impossible to have a discussion if we don’t use a document which both of us accept.

I don’t accept false premises as 'NT is true'. Be sure that all the premises you use are true. NT is not true until it is proven it doesn’t contradict Torah; that it doesn’t contain any anti-Torah doctrine.

This is indeed the crux of the matter. I am glad we agree.

But as for your idea that "NT is not true until it is proven it doesn’t contradict Torah; that it doesn’t contain any anti-Torah doctrine." - I do not agree with that standard of Truth. The NT is true if it is the Word of God, regardless of how it might contradict our human understandings of the Torah.

Here is the central issue - you and I have our ideas about what the Torah "really means" - but it could be that God has other ideas that we know nothing of, as it is written:

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I assert that the New Testament clearly states that the Torah was fulfilled in Christ, and that if we seek to obey it as if we were under the covenant of circumcision, we have denied the Faith of Jesus Christ and so will become guilty. I assume that you take this as an "anti-Torah" teaching, and therefore "false." It will probably take a bit of discussion to sort this one out.



It is impossible to read Tan’’kh – the Jewish Bible – without knowing Hebrew. The current Christian translators are a proof of this. The English is always irrelevant — at best a translation that tries, with varying degrees of success, to convey a Hebrew idea with a minimum of distortion. (The same is true of Greek, by the way. Greek-to-English doubles the distortion that is introduced into the original Hebrew idea.)

We both agree that Tan’’kh is true therefore that is a foundation for a discussion.

Yes, that is a good foundation. But we also need the foundation that God Almighty laid through the Apostles and Prophets of the New Testament, with Jesus Christ as the Cornerstone, as it is written:

Ephesians 2:20-22 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
If you reject all the New Testament except one Aramaic version of Matthew, how then do you know anything about Jesus Christ? You don't even know about Pentecost if you reject Acts.



Another foundation is the historical research by Scholars in leading universities like Barrie Wilson: www.barriewilson.com (http://www.barriewilson.com)

Thanks for the link. I'll take a look as time permits.



For you to prove that Christianity is correct and that it has displaced Judaism, then you need to show where in Tana''kh it says that the Mâshiakh (Messiah) shall come and replace the Torah. You also need to show where in Tana''kh it is written about the trinity and that the Mâshiakh shall be an g*od. And there is much else you need to show also. The NT, as I said, is invalid to use for your argumentation until you prove it's validity from Tana''kh

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il (http://www.netzarim.co.il)) whom are followers of Ribi Yehoshua – the Messiah – in Orthodox Judaism
Those are important issues. I look forward to discussing them with you.

Many blessings,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
10-04-2008, 10:02 AM
I took a look at this site www.barriewilson.com (http://www.barriewilson.com/) and found a link to this video in which he lays out some of his ideas:

http://www.yorku.ca/akevents/flash/arts_letter/barrie_wilson/

There was one area in which I think he has made a fundamental error. He asserts that the early followers of Jesus lived in "perfect harmony with all forms of Judaism" except for a little trouble they had with the Saducees. Here is an exact transcript from the video:

The early Christian movement in Jerusalem, for decades, was at peace with every other form of Judaism - with the Pharisees, with the Essenes, with the Zealots. They ran afoul of one segment called the Saducees and the high priests, but other than that they lived in perfect harmony with their friends and their relatives and their neighbors. And you contrast that with Paul. When Paul comes onto the scene everything, uh, eh - havoc is created. Where ever Paul goes ... he stirs up trouble. People want to kill him.

Is that true? Was everything sunshine and flowers and "perfect harmony" untill Paul came along? No, not at all. Not by a long shot. Stephen was martyred by a mob including "the elders, and the scribes" who brought him before the "council" which included the high priests and even the Pharisee Saul. Here is what the actual record states:
Acts 8:1-3 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. Saul was a Pharisee. The "early Christians" in Jerusalem were persecuted to such an extent that they had to flee for their lives. I will have to read more to find out how Wilson attempts to support his thesis, but as it stands all he has done is make an assertion with no foundation in fact that I can see and that directly contradicts the plain facts of history as recorded in Scritpure.

This is a very interesting topic. I would like to thank Anders for bringing it to my attention.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
10-04-2008, 10:37 AM
Hello!
Thanks for your welcome and nice to meet you!

Regarding our NHM: What you wrote is not correct.
Read more here: www.netarim.co.il (http://www.netarim.co.il) ; Israel Mall (left menu); Nezarim (bottom menu);The Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu

Hey there Anders,


I went to the link and found the Israel Mall and clicked on Nezarim on the bottom, but all I found was the info that I read before writing my post that you said contained an error. Here is a quote of the info about the NHM on that page:
Translated from all of the earliest extant source mss. up through the 4yh century C.E. – Sinaiticus (א) and Vaticanus (β) Codices, Latin a-3 (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_A-D.htm#Df-a-3) and Pәshitәtâ (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_N-Q.htm#Df-Peshiteta); all papyri of this period and including the Hebrew tradition up through the אבן-בוחן (Ëvën Bokhan (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_E-J.htm#Df-Even-Bokhan)), by שם טוב בן-יצחק בן-שפרוט (Sheim Tov Bën-Yitzkhaq Bën-Shaprut), c. 1380 C.E. (earliest extant mss. from 15th century, including Talmud, Mishnâh (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_K-M.htm#Df-Mishnah) and Gәmârâ (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_E-J.htm#Df-Gemara); the Book of Nestor (9th century C.E.), Ya·aqov (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_U-Z.htm#Df-Yaaqov) Bën-Ruvein's 'מלחמות ה (Milkhâmot ha-Sheim (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_K-M.htm#Df-Milkhamot-ha-Sheim)) of 1170 C.E., 12th century Hebrew Ms. Or. Rome #53, and 13th century ספר יוסף המקנא (Seiphër Yoseiph ha-Mәqânei, "the Zealous") and ספר ניצחון ישן (Seiphër Nitzakhon Yashan, "Old Book of Polemics/Victory).

Moreover, NHM incorporates the knowledge in 1QIsa (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_U-Z.htm#Df-Yeshayahu), and the Dead Sea Scrolls – particularly 4Q MMT (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_K-M.htm#Df-4Q-MMT), Hebrew Torâh (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_T.htm#Df-Torah) – including the Aleppo Codex, LXX (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_K-M.htm#Df-LXX), the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha (both Charles and Charlesworth), Josephus (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_E-J.htm#Df-Josephus), Eusebius (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_E-J.htm#Df-Eusebius), Jerome (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_E-J.htm#Df-Jerome), Hegesippus (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_E-J.htm#Df-Hegesippus), Papias (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_N-Q.htm#Df-Papias), Origen (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_N-Q.htm#Df-Origen), et al. NHM also incorporates the information in the Nag Hammadi Codices and the various "Hidden Gospels." Modern historians and archeologists cited include Qimron, Charlesworth, Kaufmann, Howard, Charles, Yadin, Mazur, and a myriad of others. This is the only edition since 135 C.E. ever rendered by an Orthodox Jew in good standing in an Orthodox synagogue.

I see the point of misunderstanding. Please clear this up for me. When the description claims that the NHM was translated "from all of the earliest extant source mss. up through the 4yh century C.E." - what exactly does that mean? Was the medieval "Shem Tov" document used as the primary source? When there are conflicts between the early Greek and the late Shem Tov version, did the Shem Tov usually trump the dispute?

But more important than the unique version of Matthew that you use, what about the rest of the NT? Do you reject it all? Do you reject the Pauline corpus in its entirety?

A simple and clear statement of your position on the Christian NT would be very helpful to get this conversation off to a good start.

Richard

Brother Les
10-06-2008, 08:33 AM
Thank-you Ram and Anders. for the diolog and please continue.

Thank-you for the suggestion to learn Hebrew. I will decline at this time, as living in the U.S., if I need to learn a new laguage (to me), I think that it should be Spanish. Since you know English, I hope you will continue to use that.


posted by Anders
Ribi Yehoshua said:

"Don't think that I came to uproot the Torah or the Neviim [prophets], but rather I came to reconcile them with the Oral Law of emet (truth). Should the heavens and ha-aretz (the land, particularly referring to Israel) exchange places, still, not even one ' (yod) nor one ` (qeren) of the Oral Law of Mosheh shall so much as exchange places; until it shall become that it is all being fully ratified and performed non-selectively. For whoever deletes one Oral Law from the Torah, or shall teach others such, by those in the Realm of the heavens he shall be called "deleted." Both he who preserves and he who teaches them shall be called Ribi in the Realm of the heavens. For I tell you that unless your Tzedaqah (righteousness) is over and above that of the Sophrim (Torah Scribes), and of the [probably 'Herodian'] Rabbinic-Perushim (corrupted to "Pharisees"), there is no way you will enter into the Realm of the heavens! '
Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu 5:17-20.

KJV
Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.



In your Biblical view did Jesus Christ 'reconcile' Torah and the Prophets? In your Biblical view did Heave and Earh Pass?


I believe that is has.

Brother Les


In my Biblical view, Yes, Heaven and Earth have passed and the Law and the Prophets have been reconciled.

Bob May
10-06-2008, 02:09 PM
Thank-you Ram and Anders. for the diolog and please continue.

Thank-you for the suggestion to learn Hebrew. I will decline at this time, as living in the U.S., if I need to learn a new laguage (to me), I think that it should be Spanish. Since you know English, I hope you will continue to use that.



KJV
Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.



In your Biblical view did Jesus Christ 'reconcile' Torah and the Prophets? In your Biblical view did Heave and Earh Pass?


I believe that is has.

Brother Les


In my Biblical view, Yes, Heaven and Earth have passed and the Law and the Prophets have been reconciled.

I see the biggest flaw in Ander's foundation, or what he has shown of it so far, being that the word fulfilled and fulfil have been left out. As I believe Brother Les is pointing out.
Jesus did Fulfill the Law in Dying. We cannot be tried twice for the same crime, the ultimate sacrifice has been made. Once for all. For all time, For all sin.
As One man sinned and death passed upon all so One man died for the redemption of all.

But the Law still goes on for those who have not understood yet. For the Law leads us to Christ.

By leaving out the word fulfilled, Ander's source is missing the key element to understanding what happened at the Cross.
As Jesus said at that time, at the very center of History, "It is Finished".

We are no longer under the Law but under Grace.

And yet, the law has much more to tell us. If we look at it with the eyes of those who are no longer bound by it's strictures.
Jesus said, "Moses wrote of me." With carnal eyes we cannot see this or believe it, but Spiritual understanding can sometimes be like 20/20 hindsight.

Prophecy has two aspects. Neithewr is possible without the Spirit.

One is foretelling of things that are to come. (Old Testament Prophecy) This form is mostly about the coming of Jesus, his Crucifixion and Resurrection and Pentacost and what they would mean to those involved at some future date.

The other is "interpreting" the Scriptures. Or rather understanding what they truely mean. This form of prophecy is made possible by the indwelling Spirit in each believer. It also deals with howe Jesus came and what those events now mean to US as recipients of the Promises connected with those events.
And it is a confirmation to us that those events are running their course in our lives. And that the things that we experience are not our imaginations but have been written about before hand.

Bob

amth
01-17-2009, 05:33 AM
Yhschua come to correct the split line from the sadduzäer. The lie from the sadduzäer was that not resurrection give and Yhshua come to correct this lie. The split from truth coming with advasary satan and the split a new religion is symbol from advesary and Yhschua come not to split.

1 Adam was created he was wonderful and live wonderful with wife.

2 The lie from advesary satan split the truth and adam and wife are separating from the place that they lived and separating from unmortal than they mortal with eat from the Prohibited Tree. That is the lie that Yhshua bring new religion that was a lie this lie separate the truth and to connect for this come mchmd. Torah said this.1. Bereshit (בראשית, literally "In the beginning")
2. Shemot (שמות, literally "Names")
3. Vayiqra (ויקרא, literally "He called")
4. Bamidbar (במדבר, literally "In the wilderness")
5. Devarim (דברים, literally "Things" or "Words")

The beginning-Name-Qran-in wildermess-this words.
The beginning Mchmd than God have not a beginning and not a end. Name. He called Qran . In wildermess in Mekka is in wildermess. This words to human.

3 The God created the earth that the human wash the sin from the body in the earth. This is symbol from Mchmd and Islam subjugation. The subjugation was ever the only religion from human and come with the first creation than all creation are subdue from God. Target from human is in this world to doing that that the advasary satan flee from human and only with subjugation flee advasaray satan from human that is in arabic islam and this say John in bibel too.

1 is ever 1 with split separating will be from one 2 and 2 can only connected with 3 that is the all
The one of Alfa and Omega creation is i believe Mchmd the seal of the Nbia.
801*92=73692 -->7 seal 63 Nbia 92 Mchmd.

The Alfa and Omega from revulution have got white hair and Jesus was joung as he go out from the earth. The man with white hair in revulution is i believe Mchmd he die with white hair.

Bn-Son vaule 52 the 52 th prime is 239 Mchmd the connected line. Son is symbolic word in the books than God is not human that birth. The God said and it will. So created The God Mchmd so created The God Yhschua. Who said The God birth that is in way of advasary the father of the lie.

The son of God 1104+888 Ihsous=1992
The son of God 1104=92*12

Paraklhtos&bn 81052=881*92
But this son is symbolic the God dont birth.



The truth behind the 2 covananth.



http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1292/firstcovenanthkc4.jpg

The first covenanth from The God and the human Adam break it with the lie from advasary and with eat from the fruit of the tree middle of the garden.
After than The God drove out Adam from the Garden to earth and The God give him the possibility his sin to make undo that he can go back to first place the paradise. But he can only back if he subdue to word from The God and not if he subdue to word of advasary than adam must doing contrary than he breaked the first covananth as he subdue to word of advasary satan. That said John in bibel too. The advasary flee from human if human subdue The God and the Target the covenanth in the earth is this to subdue to God and this is in arabic language islam.

The human do false if he said i am the son of God.
Mathew 23:12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

The target of the live here in the earth is exalted to paradise and for this must the human subdue to God. Better is to sitting in down than if the King love me than he will say come on to near my chair and sit near me but if i sitting in the nair the chair from the king and he love me not than if he come he will me drove up. That say the bibel too.




http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4377/secondcovenanthnb8.jpg


The human do false if he said i am the son of God.
Mathew 23:12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

The target of the live here in the earth is exalted to paradise and for this must the human subdue to God.

That is the 2 covenanth from bibel and not that Jesus come with new religion. We have all one God and we have all one religion and this religion is indivisible. But human separated the only one religion and God send Mchmd to connected the split line. The one religion is in the ten commandments too how in the Gospels

Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.This is in arabic language islam.


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1603/alfaorg5.jpg
That all what i write is that i believe the all truth know YHVH ALLAH.

andersbranderud
01-18-2009, 02:27 AM
Ribi Yehoshua is called ‘Ribi Yeshua’ on the Talpiot Tomb to name one thing.

So it is not an assumption that Ribi Yehoshua was a Ribi.

See www.netzarim.co.il ; “History Museum” (left menu); “Mashiakh”-section (top menu)..

Prof. of Statistics Andrey Feuerverger has demonstrated that, contrary to the mathematically-challenged critics of the Yaaqov ossuary, the chances that the ossuaries in the Talpiot Tomb aren't those of the family of the 1st-century Pharisee Ribi Yehoshua are 1:1600 (Feuerverger, Prof. Andrey – The Final Word, http://projecteuclid.org/aoas).

So the burden of proof is on you if you state that Ribi Yehoshua is not a Pharisee.

All our research is based on logic and science. If you want to learn more you will find books in the “Israel Mall” (left menu) in our website.

I am not recopyist; so it’s you who have to read our historical and logical research; or stay in logical contradictions.

We know from Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q MMT (see my first post) that a Ribi would never le-havdil (to differentiate) had said that he came to fulfil Torah. The person who claims this has the burden of proof on him, because it contradicts what we know about the practise of all Pharisees during the first century.

That a person fulfils Torah with the effect that no one needs to practise Torah anymore is totally anti-Torah (se below quote), and thus according to Devarim (hellenized to Deuteronomy) 13:1-6 been a false prophet.

Any candidate for being the Mashiakh must practise non-selectively Torah-observance according to Devarim (Hellenized to Deuteronmy) 13:1-6. Any proclaimed follower of the Mashiakh must do likewise; according to the same passage in Torah.

It’s also important to know this:

Pro-Torah, 1st century, historical, Jew, Ribi Yehoshua and (Le-Havdil) the anti-Torah, post-135 C.E., Roman-syncretized counterfeit, J*esus (= Yesh"u) are mutually contradictory, intractably antithetical, polar opposites! Logically, these two diametric opposites must, therefore, be rigorously distinguished from each other. Following either necessarily requires resolute rejection of the antithetical opposite.

The historical J*esus is an oxymoron. The historical person was named le-havdil (to differentiate) Ribi Yehoshua. This is not the same person as the Christian Jesus.
Finding the historical Jew, who was a Pharisee Ribi and following him brings you into Torah, which gives you a rich and meaningful life here on earth and great rewards in life after death (“heaven”)!


From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il) whom is followers of Ribi Yehoshua – the Messiah – in meta-Orthodox Judaism

Brother Les
01-21-2009, 11:31 AM
amth posted
Yhschua come to correct the split line from the sadduzäer. The lie from the sadduzäer was that not resurrection give and Yhshua come to correct this lie. The split from truth coming with advasary satan and the split a new religion is symbol from advesary and Yhschua come not to split.

I can understand that the Bible says that the 'Sadducees' did not believe in the 'Resurrection from The Dead'. Why were the Sadducees in charge of the Temple Worship Cultus System if they did not understand that 'System'? The Sacrifices of The Mosaic Marriage Covenant were used to 'remind' The People of The Land that they had 'Sinned' accounted to them and that their 'Sins' were rolled forward year after year, unto The End of The Age. Was not the 'Age Ending' when 'Judgment' came upon 'The People, The City and The Temple. 'Judment upon the Mosaic Covenant 'World'? Was not this 'the Ending of The Dead ones and the Begining (as in Genisis) of Everlasting Life? What is the 'type' of 'Resurrection From The Dead' in your view point was Joshua 'Come' to 'correct' in the thinking of the Sadducees by way of being a 'Teacher'.... Was it physical death unto physical life? Was it 'Spiritual' or 'National' death that you infer? If 'Joshua' was a Pharisee, come to fill the breach between these two 'Sects',why did 'his' 'Sect' let the Sanhedren, 'Judge' him as a blasphemer that warrented death?


Thank-you for your diolog.

Brother Les

amth
01-22-2009, 06:19 AM
I can understand that the Bible says that the 'Sadducees' did not believe in the 'Resurrection from The Dead'. Why were the Sadducees in charge of the Temple Worship Cultus System if they did not understand that 'System'? The Sacrifices of The Mosaic Marriage Covenant were used to 'remind' The People of The Land that they had 'Sinned' accounted to them and that their 'Sins' were rolled forward year after year, unto The End of The Age. Was not the 'Age Ending' when 'Judgment' came upon 'The People, The City and The Temple. 'Judment upon the Mosaic Covenant 'World'? Was not this 'the Ending of The Dead ones and the Begining (as in Genisis) of Everlasting Life? What is the 'type' of 'Resurrection From The Dead' in your view point was Joshua 'Come' to 'correct' in the thinking of the Sadducees by way of being a 'Teacher'.... Was it physical death unto physical life? Was it 'Spiritual' or 'National' death that you infer? If 'Joshua' was a Pharisee, come to fill the breach between these two 'Sects',why did 'his' 'Sect' let the Sanhedren, 'Judge' him as a blasphemer that warrented death?


Thank-you for your diolog.

Brother Les

For me is the bibel a navigationsystem whats happened that adam not more live in paradise and what can adam do to back to paradise. Yahschua is for me the symbol of the world. He is the help from God to human to us. With lie from advasaray satan come the sin and with sin the dead. The lie from satan separated the truth. And if Yahschua created a new religion than he were a separater a splitter and he do not this.

How come you in your house if you go out of the house ?
Out=Face whatched to the street and back of the body whatched the house.
In=The face watched the house and back of the body whatched to street.
you must do contrary how you go out and the books say this do contrary how you broke the first coveanth that you can you live. Adam broked the first covenanth as he hear the word of advasary he was te subdue of te word of advasary. And God said do the contrary subduo to my word than you can come back to paradise.

The clock showed the human this too. the time fall right from 1 to 6 and exalted with 7 to 12 on the left side.

The God created 2 world one here and the other in the forever live. But it can not exist 2 in same time therefore one will be die with Crucifixion. The world catched all the sin and with end of the world come the Resurrection this is the crucifixion from bibel. The bibel say us if you subdue The God you will live. hebr. 12/9. Because as the adam subdue the word of advasaray come the dead.

I love the Bibel and the Qran. bibel is symbol to father and son that is the bibel one book father and son and the symbol of holy spirate is Qran the Qran is out of the bibel how the holy spirate out of father and son is but all are three one speak 1.

This are my words The Allknower The God of Abraham know all better.


Thank you too Les.

Kamil

Brother Les
01-23-2009, 09:03 AM
Blessings to you Kamil.

No disrespect to you,Kamil, but I am having a little trouble following your post, (from my American English stand point) as it seems that you are leaving out a few words and the discriptions of the actions are (to me) a little vague.



For me is the bibel a navigationsystem whats happened that adam not more live in paradise and what can adam do to back to paradise.

Do you mean the 'First Adam' or 'Adam'... as a meaning of 'man', being able to go back to 'Paradise'


With lie from advasaray satan come the sin and with sin the dead.

What 'lie' did the Advarsary 'satan' (the man?) say?


With lie from advasaray satan come the sin and with sin the dead. The lie from satan separated the truth. And if Yahschua created a new religion than he were a separater a splitter and he do not this.
No, Joshua, did not 'create' a 'new religion'. There is not a 'religion' when it comes to 'Man' - YHWH... it is a Relationship.


The God created 2 world one here and the other in the forever live. But it can not exist 2 in same time therefore one will be die with Crucifixion.


Does not one world ('earth') exist within the other '(Heaven')


....therefore one will be die with Crucifixion. The world catched all the sin and with end of the world come the Resurrection this is the crucifixion from bibel.


The Crucifixion ,Joshua, taking all the Sin of 'The World' upon Himself was the end of The Marriage Contract with 'The World'. 'The World', 'Judgment' was in AD70. We are not living in 'The New Heavens and The New Earth' and there is no seperation between God and Adam.


I love the Bibel and the Qran. bibel is symbol to father and son that is the bibel one book father and son and the symbol of holy spirate is Qran the Qran is out of the bibel how the holy spirate out of father and son is but all are three one speak 1.

In your meaning of 'love', do you mean 'follow'? or just like to read and use as you would say

For me is the bibel a navigationsystem

It is not possiable to 'navigate' The Bible and navigate the Koran and end up in 'the same' 'YHWH' Paradise.

Joshua did not teach the Pharesian Sect of The Law, He taught, Love God, Love your neighbor and bestow Grace to all.

Blessings
Brother Les

amth
01-25-2009, 09:00 AM
Hi Les,
First sorry for my english i know is not perfekt :)
The first adam hear satan and we should do contrary what first adam do as he fall.
All adam are in this world before the tree and satan said eat and we should not eat that is that important what bibel and qran said dont eat from the three what first adam eat and he fall. We should do contrary we should do what Yahschua do after 40 day fast as he said go away satan you should only serve The God as satan hear this he went from Yahshua.
What the lie is ? Read Genesis. The cross is symbol of dead and with that were seperate the forever live from adam. One line is truth and the second line of the one line is seperating and this is symbol of dead. You can connected split line with 3 line and mchmd do this as 3. The truth behind the 39 and 27 books are 3 the connect line is 92 is mchmd is 7 the seal th shbth. You can see this in 401 th prime too that is 2749 Aleph-Tau. You said this is relationship but million of people believe that Yahshua come to create new religion and this is lie than Yahshua is not a separeter of the truth.
Yahshua said if you are my way than take your cross and come with me. You can save your self. The Help from God is these world and you must self decide if you eat from the tree or not. That is that what the bibel and qran said. The Mikvah is these world and baptizing from human is symbol that the human wash the sin from the body. You can not read the books how is writing no that can not you. The books are sending to other kultur and other langueage other nation as you are. In Israel if the Israel heare The son of God they are not believe that son birth but you as you read The son of God you believe that The God birth and this is not truth. Only the swimmer can swimm not a notswimmer standing before see and whatched the swimmer. The swimmer are the son of israel and the people from mekka in there kultur are the books written. You want to live ? Than do what Yahshua do and the satan went from you. rulings do not have to know your. If the man says muchammed is no prophet and qran is not God's word, I ask you have spoken with God? Because without talking to God to have you talk about your knowledge. You know 1-10 and although you do not know the 1000 begins do you say I am also made at 1000.
The God is not human.
The Qran and The Bibel are navigate to paradise but you can not read The Bibel and The Qran with amerikan brain. The books are send to other human and before you understand the books you must know the kulture from them the books send.
The help from God is the earth in there we live and after the end of this world after crussification come the forever live.
The Pharisäer are did not what God love how the human are said Mchmd is not prophet. Because Mchmd saved million of young girls before the death was because the people have their children buried alive in order to sacrifice idols. I say million of human what have you doing ? He bring million of human that they worship to God from abraham how many people have you bring to the way of The God abrahams ?
7:3 Why3 do you see the speck4 in your brother’s eye, but fail to see5 the beam of wood6 in your own? 7:4 Or how can you say7 to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ while there is a beam in your own? 7:5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. 7:6 Do not give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and turn around and tear you to pieces.8 The human that say must first do what Mchmd do before thay say you are a fals prophet.

Human that know what Gematrial value is there i have showed how important the 92 for creation is.

The way of God is light and for this must the brain worked how in verse.
15:25 But she came and bowed down33 before him and said,34 “Lord, help me!” 15:26 “It is not right35 to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs,”36 he said.37 15:27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied,38 “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” 15:28 Then39 Jesus answered her, “Woman,40 your faith is great! Let what you want be done for you.” And her daughter was healed from that hour.
The wife worked her brain and this love The God human they working there brain. You can save you if you worked your brain.

edit the last word of the bibel is amen value 99=9*2
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
ο 70
αμην 99
ο 70
μαρτυς 1041
ο 70
πιστος 860
και 31
αληθινος 378
2619
the Amen, the faithful and true witness


η 8
αρχη 709
της 508
κτισεως 1535
2760

92*30=2760
the beginning of the creation
The beginning of the creation is the 7 the seal from 26 YHVH
2760 th prime is 24977

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
εγω 808
ειμι 65
η 8
θυρα 510
1391
1+139=239
I am the door
εγω 808
ειμι 65
η 8
θυρα 510
δι 14
εμου 515
εαν 56
τις 510
εισελθηι 277
σωθησεται 1533
4296
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved


Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

εγω 808
ειμι 65
ο 70
ποιμην 258
ο 70
καλος 321
1592
I am the good shepherd




YHVH ALLAH know it better that is my word because i am only one subdue from The God.

The God's peace be with you.

Kamil